00:00:00.100 - 00:00:08.560

- We don't have to, but that's how you, that's one of the reasons they do that is so that the person gets used to talking on camera and it's not a big deal, but she don't need to do that.

00:00:08.600 - 00:00:17.760

I mean, she had her own TV show, so. - Yeah, but it sounds like I forgot everything I ever knew. - Yeah, but I'm not gonna roll this in sequence, Mom. It's gonna get edited.

00:00:18.360 - 00:00:23.520

- Oh. - So, rolling. Hey. - Hi. - Hi.

00:00:24.100 - 00:00:39.360

- Hi. - Introduce yourself to us. - My name is Deanie Parrish. My maiden name was Bishop, and my given name was Marie O'Dean, but I was nicknamed "Deanie" later after I was a teenager.

00:00:40.600 - 00:01:01.880

I grew up—I was born in Diffuniac Springs, Florida. This is a little mill town in western Florida. And my mother told me after I was a teenager that I was born in a boxcar. At the time I was born, I already had—why are you laughing?

00:01:07.380 - 00:01:22.420

My name is Deney Parrish. My maiden name was Bishop. My given name is Marie O'Dean, but I was nicknamed Deney after I got to be a teenager. I was born in Diffuniac Springs, Florida.

00:01:22.720 - 00:01:46.120

Defuniac is a little mill town way out in West Florida. My mother told me after I was grown that I had been born in a boxcar. My dad was—I don't know at that point if he was maybe an itinerant farmer or if he was working at different mills and would travel to different sawmills.

00:01:47.000 - 00:02:10.080

But I was born in Defuniac, my mom said, in this boxcar. And at the time I was born, I already had three older siblings. I had two brothers and a sister. My first recollection of my childhood was, I know we lived near a railroad track, and

00:02:10.080 - 00:02:20.520

Diffuniac had maybe a thousand people. I really don't know. But it was mostly farming people. There was a lot of cotton that was grown around Diffuniac.

00:02:22.160 - 00:02:37.020

And my first remembrance is that I woke up during the night and I saw a fire. A house across the railroad track was on fire. So that's my earliest remembrance. This is a town, the same town where Jacqueline Cochran was born.

00:02:37.780 - 00:03:04.580

Jacqueline Cochran, to me, is America's, still is, America's foremost woman pilot. When I was about five, my family decided to move to South Florida. I don't know why they moved, but that was their decision. My dad had an uncle that lived in Alturas, Florida, which is down below Orlando.

00:03:06.160 - 00:03:20.900

And it was a little town—well, it really wasn't even a town, it was just a spot in the road. But there was a lot of citrus groves around there. And my uncle had asked my dad to come down and work for him.

00:03:21.400 - 00:03:39.400

So my mom and dad loaded us up. My dad had a truck, and this truck had huge sides on it, slats on the sides. And they loaded all of their belongings onto this truck. By this time, I had a younger sister, who was only about a year old.

00:03:40.540 - 00:03:56.740

And they loaded that truck up with all their belongings. And on the top of the truck, they put the bed springs, I remember were standing up on the sides of the truck. But in the center of the truck, they put down the mattresses.

00:03:57.580 - 00:04:20.920

And we four older kids were put up on top of those mattresses, and that's the way we traveled from Diffuniac down to South Florida. I remember that trip. I remember that we stopped at one point on the banks of the river, and we had a big campfire

00:04:21.520 - 00:04:43.500

going to, I guess, roast hot dogs. But I fell into that campfire on the banks of that river, and I remember it was really a steep bank, but I fell into that campfire, and I still have a scar on my leg. I was about maybe five at the time.

00:04:44.220 - 00:05:12.240

Anyway, when we got to South Florida, which was about 500 miles away, on this truck, I can't remember, I think we had a little tiny house that we moved into. What I really remember about our tourist was the fact that when school started in September, It was a one-room schoolhouse, and my older, three older siblings started to school.

00:05:12.940 - 00:05:37.120

Well, I started, I would go with them every day. And finally the teacher said, "Well, we might as well enroll her." But we would go to this little one-room schoolhouse, and I would go with them every day. We left Alturas, I believe in November or December, and moved to Avon Park, which was

00:05:37.140 - 00:05:57.040

about maybe thirty or forty miles away. When we got to Avon Park and my mother tried to enroll us in school, I was five, and the principal and the teacher said that I was too young, that I couldn't enroll. And my mother said, "You give her a test.

00:05:58.200 - 00:06:14.460

She is ready for first grade. You give her a test, and if she doesn't pass the test, then I'll keep her at home. But if she passes that test, she's going to school. So they gave me a test, and yippee, I passed.

00:06:15.520 - 00:06:32.760

So I started first grade. From that, my love of studying was great. I went 12 years to school and never missed a day. how eager I was. But I think one of the first things I remember about school was in first

00:06:32.920 - 00:06:57.600

grade we had a play and I was one of the stars. I'm sure that every child in that class was a star, but the teacher made me feel like I was a star in that play. I remember fourth grade, I remember my teachers. I remember Ms. Juanita was my first grade teacher, Mrs. Mrs. Cloud was my third grade teacher, and Alma Harrell was my fourth grade teacher.

00:06:58.360 - 00:07:11.480

She was my inspiration. She was a beautiful young lady, and she was my fourth grade teacher, but everybody loved her. I remember my fifth grade teacher, Ms. Sherman, and Mrs. Wise, my sixth grade teacher.

00:07:12.280 - 00:07:43.260

I remember when I was in sixth grade, we lived—in the meantime, we lived—when we first went to Avon Park. We lived in a tent that had flooring in it, but it was out from town about four miles. It was just outside of Holland Lakes. And in this tent, there were dividers, canvas dividers between rooms so that the boys had a different area to sleep than we

00:07:43.040 - 00:08:13.020

girls did. But this is where we lived. I remember a big clock that my family had that was really meaningful to my mom. And while we were living there, and this was either in 1927 or 29, and I've forgotten which year it was, but it was the biggest hurricane that had ever hit Florida, came into Florida and came across Lake Okeechobee. Lake Okeechobee is a huge

00:08:13.020 - 00:08:43.000

in Florida. And when that hurricane hit, the people on one side thought they were safe to go back there after the hurricane hit, but what they didn't realize was that the hurricane would, on the back side of it, all the water, it took all the water out of the lake and it drowned hundreds of people. Others were homeless. Well, we were up in Avon Park

00:08:43.000 - 00:08:58.520

which was maybe almost 200 miles away, but we heard that it was coming. And some friends of my family who lived, they had a big garage downstairs. It was a concrete building. And they had a garage with a fill-in station downstairs.

00:08:58.700 - 00:09:19.580

And upstairs over the garage were all these rooms that they rented out. And they asked my family to come and stay there until the hurricane passed, which I I remember, and I remember how strong the winds were. But we went and stayed with them, and the next day after the hurricane had passed, I

00:09:19.580 - 00:09:36.420

remember going back out to our house in the Model T Ford, and our house was gone. Everything was gone. My family found that big clock over a mile away in a tree. But all of our things were gone.

00:09:37.120 - 00:09:48.420

But the people that my dad worked for, at that time my dad was working as a caretaker for a resort. It was a big deal to us. It was a resort.

00:09:48.500 - 00:10:04.440

It was Highland Lakes. It had this lake and beautiful homes around it that were just like castles to us. But my dad was working there as a caretaker. So they found a house for us out on the highway.

00:10:04.440 - 00:10:22.340

It was about a half mile from the lake itself. But it was this big house, downstairs had been a tea room, and there was a family living there. So they lived downstairs, and my dad and mom and we five kids moved upstairs.

00:10:23.020 - 00:10:35.280

But that just lasted about a month or so. And that family moved out so that my folks had the entire house. This was a wonderful house. No air conditioning, but it was wonderful.

00:10:35.920 - 00:10:50.780

And we had two bathrooms, one downstairs and one upstairs. So my mom and dad and my little sister lived downstairs, and we four older kids, two boys and two girls, we lived upstairs. Well there were seven bedrooms.

00:10:51.620 - 00:11:06.220

So we would change bedrooms about every week. We would take our beds apart and move into a different bedroom. The boys wouldn't, but my sis and I would. But we lived there until I was in high school.

00:11:07.240 - 00:11:26.240

While I was there, we would go to school on the bus. The bus would pick us up, and we lived about four miles into town. The bus would pick us up, and my younger sister, of course, was going to school also. I do remember taking up for her a lot.

00:11:27.360 - 00:11:46.020

I was very scrappy. I wasn't afraid to defend her, even if I had to use my hands. And I remember doing that, but I was very protective of her. As I went on through school, I don't remember we had some real special friends that lived

00:11:46.360 - 00:12:06.000

down the road from us. And we used to go down to Allie's house and play. And I know one of the things that my mom teased me about in later life was how obstinate I was because she would tell me, "No, you can't go to Allie's house."

00:12:06.000 - 00:12:26.980

And I remember once getting a very good spanking because I didn't go to Allie's house. And to this day, I think I was right. I went down the road and I stood across the road from Allie's house and I called her. And she came over and we played, but I didn't go to her house.

00:12:27.720 - 00:12:40.240

But I really got a good spanking. But I was very determined once I decided I was going to do something. I did it. And I, you know, the consequences might be there, but I was willing to take them.

00:12:40.680 - 00:12:51.880

And I think that's what inspired me to do a lot of the things that I've done, or that was my background, how I grew up. I did things for myself. How many were in your high school graduating class?

00:12:52.380 - 00:13:11.360

When I graduated, as I went on through school, I studied hard. And I was studying for something. I was studying to prove that I was just as good, even though I might not have as—my clothes weren't quite as good, maybe, but I knew that my brain was just as good as anybody

00:13:11.480 - 00:13:24.960

else's. So when I graduated from high school, I had—there were only 39 people in my graduating class. But it makes no difference how many. I was the top of the class.

00:13:26.020 - 00:13:49.680

And I think if there had been 900 people, I would have still been the top of the class because I had that much determination and will to do what I wanted to do. While I was in high school, I started working in the bank. In the meantime, we had moved into town from Highland Lakes, and we lived just about a

00:13:49.480 - 00:14:02.600

a half block from the main mall in Avon Park. And Avon Park is a pretty little town with a mall, with a park in the middle, and a bandstand, and we lived about a half a block.

00:14:03.420 - 00:14:18.820

And we walked to school, which was not really that far, but it was a wonderful town to grow up in. Everybody knew everybody, and when I was still in high school, I began working in the bank after school.

00:14:19.320 - 00:14:41.540

as a bookkeeper, as a teller, and then at night, on the weekends especially, I was the cashier at the local movie theater, which was wonderful because the girl before me had been Miss Florida. So it was quite an honor to me, and it was the only theater in town.

00:14:42.320 - 00:14:55.780

But I worked in the theater as the cashier, And I dated the boy who ran, who was the movie operator. >> Do you remember how much a ticket was? >> I think at that point the tickets were maybe 10 cents.

00:14:55.780 - 00:15:10.300

I know we had a lot of Saturday matinees. I don't remember if they went maybe to 25 cents. But I was working there in 1939 when Gone with the Wind came out. So I saw Gone with the Wind many times.

00:15:10.900 - 00:15:35.140

And to this day that is my favorite movie. After I finished high school, my family could not afford to send me to college. So I started working full-time in the bank. In the meantime, the war threat for the war in Germany was very—we knew that it was

00:15:35.200 - 00:15:54.720

going to happen. And a primary school for cadets moved into our little town. We had a little airport with a grass runway. And this was a civilian school, which is how they taught cadets to fly before World War

00:15:54.900 - 00:16:14.060

II. And this, our town, was designated as a primary school for cadets. So this civilian school moved into our little town, and they brought in all these civilian instructors and Army Air Force officers

00:16:14.400 - 00:16:26.340

who were the overseers of the program. And they had all these little airplanes that they brought in also, trainers, because it was primary. And then they had different classes of cadets.

00:16:27.200 - 00:16:43.680

Well, as I worked in the bank, the instructors would come in to cash their checks. And that was very intriguing to me, to listen to them talk. And invariably, they would be talking about flying.

00:16:44.500 - 00:16:58.340

And of course, I knew nothing about flying. We had one man in our town that had a little airplane. He owned the GM dealership there. And he was the only one that I ever knew who knew how to fly.

00:16:58.580 - 00:17:12.600

Certainly no girls knew how to fly. because we weren't, and I had never known of a girl flying. Of course, by that time, Jacqueline Cochran was flying and so was Amelia Earhart, but we really didn't hear much

00:17:12.740 - 00:17:26.580

about them in my little town. But the love of flying began to be instilled in me because these instructors loved it so much. So finally, I thought, why can't I do that?

00:17:26.950 - 00:17:45.960

And even though I was making such a little bit of money, I thought, "Why can't I do that?" At that point, I think I was probably nineteen. One day I asked a friend of mine if she knew any of the instructors.

00:17:47.240 - 00:18:06.360

She said, "Yes, she had a friend whose husband was an instructor. So she would ask him about teaching me to fly." So she asked him, and he said he would be glad to. I believe at that point I paid six dollars for a half hour of instruction.

00:18:07.900 - 00:18:29.880

And with my meager salary, I know that I made about a hundred dollars a month at the bank, but six dollars for a half hour was a lot of money for me to spend. But for some reason, my family encouraged me, or at least they didn't discourage me, so I decided I would take flying lessons.

00:18:30.840 - 00:18:44.300

So after the cadets finished flying in the afternoons, I would go out. This instructor's name was Fritz Jackson. He's a wonderful guy. Anyway, he started instructing me.

00:18:45.160 - 00:19:05.500

And after about three lessons, I asked him one day if he thought I would ever make a pilot. And he said, "I don't know, but someday you will know." And he said, "When that time comes, you will know whether or not you will be a pilot.

00:19:05.700 - 00:19:22.840

Something will happen, and you will know." So I said, "Okay." So I kept taking my little instructions and saving my money. And finally one day, and I think I had maybe six hours, seven hours of instruction, and

00:19:22.940 - 00:19:48.140

I was training on a little Piper Cub, which is a single engine, little low-wing airplane that has a front seat and a back seat, but it's enclosed, it's not open cockpit. So this one day he said, "Okay, I'm getting out and you take it around." So the instructor always sat in the front seat and the student in the back.

00:19:48.580 - 00:20:04.620

So he got out and I taxied out and I took off. I came around and he had told me, "You watch for me and I'll indicate what I want you to do after you land." So when I came around and landed, he waved me off again.

00:20:05.500 - 00:20:24.720

So I knew he wanted me to go around again. So I took off. And in taking off in little airplanes at that point, at that time, and I assume you do the same today, you take off and you get up to maybe two or three hundred feet and you level

00:20:25.020 - 00:20:48.200

off because when you take off you're trying to gain as much altitude as you can. Then you level off and you pull your throttle back and then you climb gently on up to the altitude you want to go. So when I got up to my three or four hundred feet and I pushed forward, you're flying in a little airplane that has a stick. It's called a joystick,

00:20:49.140 - 00:21:14.560

in the center, kind of between your legs. And that stick is how you control. If you go up, whether you're going up or if you want to level off or if you want to go down, that stick controls those ailerons that make that airplane do different maneuvers. So when I started to level off at about 400 feet, and I pushed forward on the little stick

00:21:15.320 - 00:21:35.400

with my hand on the throttle, the stick came off in my hand. And my first thought was, "He's done this on purpose." But then I realized, no, I was in a very dangerous situation because that little airplane began to chug a little bit.

00:21:36.380 - 00:21:57.620

But I kept the throttle wide open and I had on a seat belt, so I got the seat belt off and I reached over the front seat. And the front seat was up pretty high, but I reached over and with the tips of my fingers I could touch the front stick that was in the front seat.

00:21:58.580 - 00:22:22.900

So I pushed forward on that stick and just held it there until the airplane leveled off and began to pick up speed so that I knew that it was safe. Then I climbed over, climbed over into that front seat. Once I got in the front seat, I was sitting on this really knotted up seat belt.

00:22:23.340 - 00:22:39.140

The instructor had knotted it up so that it wouldn't fall down into the rudder pedals on either side. So I had to work quite a little while. I kept it, I kept the throttle more open than it should have been at normal, but I didn't

00:22:39.180 - 00:23:01.520

want that thing to stall out. So I finally got that seat belt undone and buckled because I knew I could not land it without putting on a seat belt because I had never even sat in the front seat before. So once I got that seat belt on, I looked up and here is this huge red sign that says,

00:23:02.060 - 00:23:20.020

"Do not solo from front seat." But I knew I had no choice. So I leveled off and then I began to climb and I got up to my altitude that we normally flew a pattern.

00:23:20.720 - 00:23:41.160

And by this time I had gone miles, it seemed like, farther out than I should have. And my instructor said later that when he saw me he knew the airplane was about to stall and that I would be killed. And that he vowed to himself, if she ever gets down, she'll never get in an airplane

00:23:41.360 - 00:23:59.960

again, ever. Anyway, once I got settled in, I did my pattern, and I came back on my downwind leg, and I could see him standing way over by the hangar. And I came around, and I thought, "Well, if I don't make a good landing, I'll just go

00:24:02.760 - 00:24:14.340

around." I'll just bounce too high or just go around. But when I came in, I made a fairly decent landing. So I taxied over near where he was standing.

00:24:14.440 - 00:24:27.000

In the meantime, he had turned his back and was walking away. So I knew he was mad. But I taxied over near where he was. And finally, I think at that point I realized what I had done, maybe.

00:24:28.080 - 00:24:50.380

I just stopped and just sat there. And he came walking over to the airplane with his head down, and I knew that he was mad. He got up to the door, and he looked in, and what a surprise look. And he said, "What in the hell are you doing in the front seat?"

00:24:50.380 - 00:25:06.800

And I just pointed to the back, and he looked back there, and then he said something that I have always remembered. He said, "Now you know. You have the right stuff to be a pilot."

00:25:06.880 - 00:25:27.540

I think that's what gave me courage. Any time that I had a problem, I remembered his words, and somehow it would get me through a problem. But from there, I kept on flying, and I had the opportunity then to go to Houston to work

00:25:27.440 - 00:25:58.940

in a big bank in Houston. So I decided to go to Houston because I knew Avon Park was so small. It really had nothing to offer young people, and girls in those days anyway. They were trained to be teachers or nurses, and I knew I didn't have enough money to go to school. So I thought I'll just do the best I can. And I thought I would have more opportunities

00:25:59.200 - 00:26:23.120

in Houston than I would in this little town. So I took the train and I went to Houston. And I started working in First City National Bank in Houston. And at that point it was a very small bank. Today, in 1999, it is one of the largest banks, of course, in Houston. But I started working as a bookkeeper and I progressed along very well.

00:26:23.700 - 00:26:42.920

And of course I made more money than I did in Avon Park. So I decided, because I wanted to keep flying, in the meantime the WASP had not ever been heard of. But somewhere in the back of my mind I knew that one day they were going to take girls

00:26:42.920 - 00:26:53.420

and teach them to fly the same as they were doing the cadets. >> We're going to wrap that up. >> Okay. My voice sounds funny.

00:26:53.680 - 00:27:05.480

>> No, your voice, voice, voice. >> Well, these are just things to pick, perk their memory. >> Right, to jog somebody's memory. >> But I'm, yeah, but I'm not sure, you know,

00:27:06.440 - 00:27:14.580

I think that's for the tape I'm going to do. I don't remember where I was in Houston. >> Well, you were talking about going to Houston and that you were making more money at that bank

00:27:14.680 - 00:27:21.520

than you ever could have in Florida. Did you fly in Houston? >> Yeah. >> When did you--

00:27:21.520 - 00:27:37.660

>> Oh, are you rolling? Oh. Yeah, while I was in Houston, I began flying out at Skyport Airport. I lived on-- not in downtown, but almost downtown Houston.

00:27:38.320 - 00:27:58.260

But I started flying out at Skyport and I bought an interest. And I believe there were three of us who owned this little airplane. And I began flying for the Civil Air Patrol. Now the Civil Air Patrol was -- our mission was to search --

00:27:58.260 - 00:28:13.760

it wasn't so much rescue, but it was to search for airplanes that had been lost or anything that we were needed for. So I began to fly for the Civil Air Patrol along the Gulf Coast, down all around Houston in that area.

00:28:15.040 - 00:28:29.200

And I did that, and while I was there, all of a sudden the WASPs were activated. That's the Women Air Force Service Pilots Training. At that point, we were not -- they were not called WASPs.

00:28:29.360 - 00:28:39.920

It was a training detachment. And they were -- they came into Houston. There wasn't a lot of publicity about it, but believe me, I saw the little bit that there was.

00:28:40.140 - 00:28:54.700

Because the -- I learned later that the Army Air Force didn't want the enemy to know that they had lost so many pilots until they were using women to fly airplanes.

00:28:55.620 - 00:29:14.500

But they began this flying training detachment with 28 women, young women, that came into Houston and started training Well, actually it was called Hughes Field, but it was the Houston Municipal Airport. And these women were under Jacqueline Cochran.

00:29:15.040 - 00:29:27.920

She had instigated this training program for women. And I knew that's what I wanted to do. However, you had to be at least 21 years old. They had very strict requirements to get in.

00:29:28.480 - 00:29:51.400

You had to have your private pilot's license, and you had to be 21, and some other requirements. And I wasn't old enough, but I knew that that's what I wanted to do. So I kept flying, and the day I turned twenty-one, I filed, I sent in my application to enter training or to be considered.

00:29:52.320 - 00:30:20.060

And I think it was maybe a month or two months before I heard from it, but then I got a letter back that I had been scheduled for an interview in Fort Worth with Jacqueline Cochran's office. So I got on the train and went to Fort Worth, and the offices were very—in fact, I think they were in the railroad station, or very close by, I don't remember exactly, but

00:30:20.580 - 00:30:42.540

that's where I went to be interviewed. And after I was interviewed, it took another couple of months before I was notified that I had been accepted if I could pass the Army physical. So at that point, I decided to go back home to Florida to wait to become a trainee.

00:30:43.280 - 00:31:03.640

So I went back to Florida and I went out to the Army. In fact, it was not really an Army Air Force, it was a big bombing range that had come into our town on the outskirts of town. And they had medical facilities.

00:31:04.640 - 00:31:19.760

So I went out to that base and took my Army physical. And I will never forget because the requirement said you had to be at least five, two and a half. If I really stretched, I thought maybe.

00:31:20.520 - 00:31:41.380

So I told the sergeant that was taking all my measurements, when he weighed me, I said to him, "Now I need, I have to be at least five, two and a half to get in." So he had the little thing up on the scales that measures you, and he said, "Oh, sure, you're five, two and a half."

00:31:41.380 - 00:31:58.880

I really was about five-two and a quarter, but I'll never forget and I thank him to this day. Otherwise, I would never have gotten in. But he sent in all my medical exam, and I got a letter back that told me when I was

00:31:58.960 - 00:32:19.200

to report to Sweetwater, to Avenger Field. In the meantime, I got a job at the bombing range as a secretary, and I worked out there until I got my orders, until it was time to go. So I got on the train and I went from Florida to Avenger Field

00:32:19.280 - 00:32:36.760

in Sweetwater, Texas on the train. My reporting date was November 1st, 1943. When I was on the train out in West Texas, I met some other girls that were also going to enter training.

00:32:37.500 - 00:32:56.260

I do remember one girl that I became good friends with. Her name was Elizabeth DeGlasson. And we became good friends. When we got there, we went to the Blue Bonnet Hotel, and then a cattle truck from Avenger

00:32:56.980 - 00:33:17.900

came in to pick us all up. Well, in my class, there were a hundred and, I believe, a hundred and one entered my particular class. So we went out to this air base, Army Airfield, that was out in the sagebrush, I guess.

00:33:18.700 - 00:33:34.840

There were really no big trees around, it was just sagebrush and rolling tumbleweeds everywhere. This was West Texas. But when we got there, we were all herded into this big mess hall, which was used as

00:33:34.660 - 00:33:53.480

a recreation room at that time. And we were given all of our instructions on what to do. Now we were different than the cadets that entered training because— [Reporter asks about cattle truck.]

00:33:54.540 - 00:34:10.820

This cattle truck had really been a cattle truck, but they took the cattle out and they put in two benches, one on either side. It had rolled down canvas curtains on the top so that if it were raining, we didn't get wet.

00:34:11.160 - 00:34:25.500

But that's the transportation we used all the time to get back and forth into Sweetwater. Sweetwater is maybe three or four miles from Avenger. So that cattle truck was what was our transportation into Sweetwater. You lived at the motel?

00:34:26.440 - 00:34:39.520

No, we didn't live at the motel. I don't remember ever spending a night at the Blue Bonnet, but that was just where we met that day. But then the cattle truck came in, because that train had a lot of girls on it.

00:34:40.640 - 00:35:06.080

Then we went out to Avenger, and we went in this mess hall, or recreation hall, and we were given all of our instructions on what to expect and what we could expect. We were issued our clothing. We were told that we could only take one little suitcase with us to our barracks.

00:35:06.980 - 00:35:22.380

And we were issued a zoot suit, which was men's coveralls, flying coveralls. The smallest size was a size 42. But we each got a pair of coveralls. With a zipper up the front.

00:35:22.840 - 00:35:47.720

We got all of our bed linens for our cots, and we were told that we would be -- all of our ground school instructions about what courses we would be taking, and these were all college courses in physics and math and meteorology and Morse code and all the things that we would need as pilots.

00:35:48.620 - 00:36:10.460

We were told we would be spending 210 hours in flying training, that we would spend 70 hours in primary training, which would be primary airplanes, 70 hours in basic training, which was in instrument flying, and 70 hours in advanced flying, which was mostly cross-country type flying.

00:36:11.170 - 00:36:28.960

But we were given all of these things, which we promptly forgot a lot of them, but we didn't forget the fact that we were going to be inspected every Saturday morning and that we had to live up to the Army inspection. We were also told that we were going to be militarized.

00:36:29.100 - 00:36:53.640

At this point, we were not militarized. General Arnold's view was that it would take Congress too long to give us military status, so just get them in any way you can and start training them, and we'll get the militarization care of later. So we were actually paid by civil service. But when we arrived in Avenger,

00:36:53.640 - 00:37:19.280

we found Army officers were our overall in charge of us, and that we would have Army officers as our check pilots. We would have civilian instructors, but Army check pilots. Anyway, we took our -- and we were divided up into two flights alphabetically. First The first half of the alphabet was in flight A, the second half was in flight B.

00:37:20.100 - 00:37:42.700

My name was Bishop at the time, so I was in flight A. They also divided us up into bays. Each room was called a bay, and every bay had six girls in that bay. So the first six girls in the alphabet was in the first bay, and I was in that first

00:37:42.940 - 00:37:54.160

group of six. Were there facilities for women? No. When we got to our bay, we found out there were six Army cots with little thin mattresses

00:37:54.200 - 00:38:07.220

on them. And the room was very small. There was a skinny locker next to each cot. And in between the two bays, there was what they called a latrine.

00:38:08.240 - 00:38:33.220

This barracks had been used for cadets, for Canadian cadets who were training there when they moved the school there, which happened three months after the school started in Houston. There were just not enough facilities there, and they found this base. So they first thought it would be a co-ed school, but after about a few weeks, six weeks

00:38:33.200 - 00:38:55.280

I believe, the cadets were moved out and they left it just as a female primary, well, primary, basic, and advanced school. Unlike the cadets who would go from primary at one school into maybe another state for basic and another state for advanced, the girls were all trained at the same base.

00:38:55.980 - 00:39:11.780

But all the girls were pilots. And as I began to talk to different girls, they all seemed to have so many more hours than I did. And I kept thinking, I wonder if I will be washed out, because we were told that at least

00:39:11.900 - 00:39:25.440

one half of the class would be washed out. Washed out means that you will not graduate. And you could be washed out for many things. The main thing was that you would not be able to pass the flight tests.

00:39:26.300 - 00:39:40.380

But you could be washed out if you had a medical problem, for example, if you broke the rules, for example. So there were many ways to wash out, but the primary way was that you might not be suited for military flying.

00:39:40.480 - 00:39:59.840

How long was your training? Our training lasted for seven months. But in—I'm drawing a blank. >> Yeah. The commanding officer of the base was a colonel.

00:40:00.640 - 00:40:17.400

And we, as I say, we had all these Army check pilots. But once we got into my bay, my five roommates, we were from all over the country. One of the girls had been a model, and she was from Houston.

00:40:18.300 - 00:40:37.380

One of the girls was from California. We had a girl from Arizona. We had a girl from Michigan and South Carolina, and we were all so different. The girl from South Carolina, we found out very shortly that her dad was a personal friend

00:40:37.440 - 00:41:00.660

of a justice of the Supreme Court, and that would play a part in her time as a trainee later on. But as we found out how different our roommates were, then we also had six roommates on the other side of the latrine, because we had this one latrine that had, I think, two showers

00:41:00.760 - 00:41:15.940

and two commodes in it. And that's where we twelve girls, that's what we had. This was a little barracks, just one story, and we learned that we were going to have to march everywhere.

00:41:16.510 - 00:41:36.780

You didn't go anywhere without marching. So that when we had Reveille at, I believe, six o'clock or seven o'clock in the morning, and you were up and you had to march to the mess hall. And then one half of the day, Flight A would fly, Flight B would be in ground school.

00:41:37.500 - 00:41:59.240

The next day, Flight B would fly in the mornings, and Flight A would be in ground school. But this was the schedule we were on. We started out flying in PT-19s, which was a Fairchild, but we only stayed in the 19s a few weeks, I think maybe three or four weeks.

00:41:59.880 - 00:42:20.580

And then they switched us over to PT-17s, which is the Stearman. The Stearman is still a single engine, but it has, it's a bi-wing, it has two wings on it. a stearman was used almost, well, an awful lot for the male cadets.

00:42:21.440 - 00:42:43.100

But they brought those stearmans in and we were so excited that we were going to get to fly the stearman. But we had, our instructors would have three students to an instructor. And then we would, if we, if that instructor felt that we were not meeting the requirements,

00:42:43.880 - 00:43:07.400

he would send us up on a check ride with an Army pilot, an Army check pilot. And if we failed that test, we would go before a board. And usually if that happened, a girl could be in the room one day and that afternoon And when you came home, her locker would be cleaned out and she would be gone.

00:43:08.580 - 00:43:26.140

And we would just automatically know that she washed out. But we lost about half our class that was washed out. But as we flew in primaries, we were going to school half a day and flying half a day, and then we had calisthenics.

00:43:27.120 - 00:43:46.660

I believe those were three times a week. we would take calisthenics. We wore shorts for the calisthenics, but we had an Army trainer, Lieutenant LaRue, who taught us, who put us through our calisthenic training.

00:43:47.880 - 00:44:04.060

And we ate in the mess hall, and most of us began to gain weight because we had a lot of fatty food and lots of starch. But we— Do you remember anything in particular that they served over and over?

00:44:04.160 - 00:44:24.700

I remember that we had a lot of meatloaf in that mess hall. But as we finished our primary training, we were told that we would have off a few days, and if we wanted to leave the post we could, because most of the time we were flying seven days a week.

00:44:25.760 - 00:44:45.640

Because in primary, that was November and December, which were very cold, and I saw snow for the first time, which was exciting. But when we finished primary, we were told that we could have off a few days, so I went down to Houston and visited with the people in the bank that I had worked with and for,

00:44:46.820 - 00:45:11.920

and then came back to Sweetwater on the train. And then we were told that ordinarily we would be going, all the classes before us and all the cadets, went from primary into basic training and then into advanced. But the Army Air Force had decided that for my class, that they were going to experiment

00:45:12.160 - 00:45:32.700

to see if we could go from primary to advanced and then go to basic. And we were the first class to try that. And if it were successful, then they would start using it with the cadets. So when I came back from leave and started into what I thought was going to be basic,

00:45:33.580 - 00:45:55.220

we were jumped up to advanced training, which was the AT-6. And we had gone from a little 200 horsepower to a 650 horsepower, which was to us a big jump. Of course, now it seems like nothing because cadets go to jets, but at that time it was

00:45:55.440 - 00:46:11.920

very unusual. But it was successful. So we did our advanced training, and then at the end of that time we went back to basic. And basic really was meant to train you to use your instruments.

00:46:12.700 - 00:46:32.400

We were flying BT-13s, BT-15s. Those were still single-engine airplanes, but as we flew in those trainers, we would fly under what's called under the hood. We would pull up a black hood over the entire cockpit so that you couldn't see out, and

00:46:32.460 - 00:46:54.200

you would fly by your instruments. We had seventy hours of that kind of training, but it really was the best training in the world for us. In the meantime, we had to go to Link Trainer, which looks a little bit like a stationary

00:46:54.400 - 00:47:08.020

cockpit up on a pedestal that you would climb into. When you got inside, you couldn't see out. It was just all your instruments. You learned to fly instruments with this trainer.

00:47:09.140 - 00:47:23.120

Was that hard for you? That was not hard for me. I was especially good at flying instruments. I'll never forget once when my instructor, one of the girls in my particular that had

00:47:23.200 - 00:47:43.200

my same instructor, that was not her best suit. And one day when she was supposed to go up with a check pilot, because we had to be checked with those check pilots even though we weren't going to be washed out, but before you could finish a phase of training, an Army check pilot would have to pass you.

00:47:44.180 - 00:48:11.860

And on this particular day, we were due for our check pilot rides, and she had been scheduled with this one particular captain that everybody knew he was notorious for washing girls out. So my instructor came to me and asked me if I would switch with her and let her go up with the Army and check pilot that I was scheduled for and for me to go with hers because he

00:48:11.920 - 00:48:35.220

said, "I know you will not have a problem." And so I did change with her and I had no problem and she passed. Did you feel any discrimination for women? I never felt discriminated against because I think I did what I was asked to do, no matter

00:48:35.260 - 00:48:49.120

what it was. I never talked back. I did my job, so I never felt discrimination. Some of the girls, even in training, I perhaps were discriminated against because I believed

00:48:49.380 - 00:49:06.960

that perhaps some of the instructors, some of those girls had more flying time than the instructor did. And I believe that was intimidating, and I do believe that perhaps some of the girls that washed out, that it was because of an ego problem, perhaps, with an instructor,

00:49:07.880 - 00:49:22.000

because they could fly better. I had one girl in my class who had flown with the RAF in England, and then she came back and went through training with us. But she had thousands of hours.

00:49:22.580 - 00:49:41.380

She had flown Spitfires, which is a fighter aircraft. She came back and went through training with my class. Of course, she could fly better than anybody. But a lot of the girls that came into training, it was not that they couldn't fly, because

00:49:41.380 - 00:50:00.140

we all had to have at least a private pilot's license. A lot of the girls had commercial pilot's licenses. It was not that they could not fly, but they just could not fly the Army way. The Army way was different, and they could not change and fly according to instructions

00:50:00.220 - 00:50:07.820

that the Army gave out. Consequently they were washed out. Can you tell what that difference was? Could I tell?

00:50:08.140 - 00:50:20.220

I mean, can you tell? I cannot tell you what that difference was, except for one thing, you had to be able to take orders. But for another thing, it was just a different type flying.

00:50:21.400 - 00:50:45.180

We were, I think the only difference between our flying and the cadets flying training was the fact that the cadets were given more hours learning acrobats, aerobatics, than we were. But we were given more time flying cross country because at that time, when I first went in,

00:50:46.300 - 00:51:05.220

Most of the girls who had graduated were flying as ferry pilots. That meant a lot of cross-country flying, whereas the boys who graduated, most of them were destined for combat. So they needed the aerobatic training in order to do the best job in combat.

00:51:06.280 - 00:51:29.680

So a lot of our training was cross-country, reading maps and not getting lost. So we did a lot of cross-country in our advanced training time. In fact, before we could graduate, we had to have cross-country in both the primary trainer and in the AT-6.

00:51:30.170 - 00:51:49.920

We had a thousand-mile cross-country. In my particular group, we went to Nashville and to Atlanta and down to Little Rock. and then back to Avenger on a cross-country trip. And that was a wonderful trip for me,

00:51:50.120 - 00:52:02.020

because when we got to Atlanta, I happened to know I had dated an instructor in Florida. And he just happened to be in Atlanta with the FAA. So that was nice.

00:52:02.540 - 00:52:27.800

We got to have dinner together before I flew back to Avenger. But once while I was in training, The girls, when they graduated, were given—they wore tan slacks and white blouses. But in February, before I graduated in May, Ms. Cochran had gone to General Arnold and

00:52:28.000 - 00:52:41.940

gotten approval to have us uniforms made. So these uniforms were made, and Neiman Marcus out of Dallas came over to Avenger and fitted us for those uniforms. And they were snazzy.

00:52:42.260 - 00:52:57.920

They were Santiago Blue, and we felt really proud so that when I graduated, we graduated in our WASP uniforms. Do you remember your graduation day? I remember the graduation day because it was so, we were so excited to get our orders.

00:52:58.380 - 00:53:15.160

And we got our orders that day. And they were posted where we were going to be sent. And another thing I remember, because the Secretary of War Patterson's wife came to our graduation, and that was really special.

00:53:15.540 - 00:53:31.100

Did you have any family that came? No, my family did not come to graduation. But Jacqueline Cochran was there, and she gave us our wings. And it was a proud day, and all the other undergraduates marched in review.

00:53:31.980 - 00:53:52.460

So it was, before that, we had always marched in review for other classes graduating, but that particular day they marched in review for us, so that was exciting. But we got our orders, and my orders, I was the only one in my class who was being sent to Greenville, Air Force Base, Mississippi.

00:53:53.380 - 00:54:14.220

But we had a few days of leave time that we could do anything we wanted to before we reported for duty. So I went back to Florida to visit my family and went out to the bombing range to see the people that I had worked for and I had on my uniform, so it was really a proud time

00:54:14.300 - 00:54:25.280

for me. But then— Did you have a choice in where you were sent? We were not—we were given choices on paper, but I don't know anyone who wrote down a

00:54:25.380 - 00:54:45.980

choice that got that choice. I had asked to maybe go to Pursuit's fighter aircraft because I am short and I thought I would really like to fly a Pursuit airplane, but that was not where I was sent. But I reported to Greenville, and when I got there, there were already two WASPs there.

00:54:46.720 - 00:55:08.680

But I reported to the commanding officer. I was given quarters in the nurses' quarters and reported to the operations officer, and told that I would be flight testing, engineering-type aircraft. These were aircraft that something had been wrong with them, they had been redlined, and

00:55:08.700 - 00:55:24.860

then they would go to engineering for them to work on them before the cadets could fly them. This was a basic school for cadets. So I would be doing that and I would be flying utility flying also, which meant if someone

00:55:24.860 - 00:55:47.440

wanted to go somewhere, then I would take them. But I lived in the nurses' quarters, I ate in the mess hall. We were always directly responsible to the commanding officer of the base. Even though our paycheck was civilian, we had to abide by all the Army Air Force regulations

00:55:47.760 - 00:56:05.620

and abide by the commanding officer's rules. Did you feel any discrimination there? I never felt discrimination at that base either. As I say, I did because I did what I was told and I think I did a good job at it.

00:56:05.710 - 00:56:17.800

As a matter of fact, one day my operations officer came up and said, "I want to check you out in a twin-engine aircraft." I thought, "Wow, this is great." I had never flown a twin-engine.

00:56:18.760 - 00:56:40.680

So we went out and we made maybe three or four passes at the air base, landings, take off and go. And after about the fourth landing, we taxied over and he said, "Okay, this afternoon I have three Army officers that need to go to Baton Rouge.

00:56:40.800 - 00:56:58.140

You're their pilot." So I thought, "Well, if he thinks I can do it, I can do it." So after lunch that day, I went back down to operations, took these three Army officers we got in that airplane, and I flew them to Baton Rouge.

00:56:59.180 - 00:57:12.460

No co-pilot. And once I dumped them off in Baton Rouge, I flew in that twin-engine airplane back to Greenville and landed. And it was the best day of my life.

00:57:13.700 - 00:57:34.160

It was wonderful because I knew I could do it. And not only that, it was only a week or so later that the commanding officer got a request for a pilot to go to Tyndall Air Force Base to train to fly the B-26, which is the Martin Marauder.

00:57:36.640 - 00:57:47.840

We're going to need to stop, so we can start with the B-26 when I change tapes. Oh, okay. I think you better start over. >> It's okay.

00:57:48.180 - 00:58:01.380

>> All right. >> Okay. >> Okay, it was really exciting the day my operations officer called me in and told me that I had been selected to go to Tyndall Air Force Base in Florida

00:58:02.220 - 00:58:11.480

to train to fly B-26s. And the reason I was selected was because I had been checked out in twin engine aircraft. That was one of the reasons.

00:58:11.540 - 00:58:29.720

>> What's a B-26? >> A B-26 is a Martin Marauder. It's a twin-engine bomber, and it was known to have the worst training record with the Army Air Force, but it was also known to have the best combat record of any aircraft.

00:58:30.920 - 00:58:46.980

Once the pilot could fly the airplane, then it was a wonderful airplane to fly, but a lot of pilots had trouble because it was an airplane that you had to fly. it would not fly simply by itself. >> Was it larger than any plane?

00:58:46.980 - 00:59:02.720

>> It was larger than any plane I had ever flown, yes, indeed. And I knew when I went to Tyndall that I would be flying as a tow target pilot if I passed the course. But when I got to Tyndall, I believe there were maybe 14

00:59:02.810 - 00:59:17.740

of us from all over the country who had been selected to go to school. We went to ground school and to flight school. But when we finished, I believe there were only eight of us left that passed.

00:59:18.000 - 00:59:35.520

And the others were sent back to the bases from which they came. And it was not because they weren't good pilots, but they were not good pilots for this particular aircraft. There were some pilots who were just not suited to flying this type of airplane.

00:59:35.890 - 00:59:51.540

>> Was it a disadvantage being short? It was always a disadvantage being short because you always had to carry cushions. And I was a three-cushion person. So but you'd have to carry cushions so that...

00:59:51.540 - 00:59:56.160

Say it again. Cushions. No, you just have to start over. Oh.

00:59:56.460 - 01:00:07.980

Was it a disadvantage being short? It was. There was one disadvantage in being short, was the fact that you had to put cushions behind you in order to reach the rudder pedals.

01:00:09.080 - 01:00:33.200

And for myself, I was a three-cushion person, which meant that every time I went out to an airplane, I would have to carry three cushions along with my parachute in order to be able to fly, because you have to get close enough so that your feet can reach those rudder pedals. But I loved being sent to B-26 training.

01:00:34.480 - 01:00:58.460

But it was also a challenge for me because my family lived in Avon Park and there was a big B-26 base at Tampa at MacDill Field and it was a B-26 training base for cadets. And the headlines in the paper invariably read, "One a day in Tampa Bay." So that when I called home and told my mom that I was going to B-26 school, she was not

01:00:58.500 - 01:01:20.660

a happy camper. She was worried because she knew that that aircraft was not known for its safety record. However, she didn't discourage me or didn't tell me, "Please try to get out of it." So I went on to Tyndall and I started in training in flight school.

01:01:21.480 - 01:01:40.300

And when I graduated, when I finished, they told me that I would be retained, that I had passed all the tests. So I began flying the B-26 as tow target, which meant that we would get up in the airplane and we would let out a sleeve.

01:01:41.620 - 01:01:53.800

I guess it was made out of canvas. It was made out of some tough material. Would be a sleeve behind the airplane, maybe 500 yards behind. I'm not sure exactly how far, but we would let this sleeve out.

01:01:53.960 - 01:02:14.660

And then a B-24, which is a four-engine bomber, with a crew with all of the gunners in place. The mission of Tyndall was to train gunners for combat. So the gunners would be in the turrets of this B-24, of which I believe there are six or seven turrets.

01:02:15.820 - 01:02:44.780

And they would fire ammunition, live ammunition, at this target that we towed behind the B-26. These bullets were color-coded so that the instructors would know when we dropped that target, they could inspect it and know how accurate each turret gunner had been. So that's what we did.

01:02:44.900 - 01:03:08.500

We would fly, and I've forgotten, I think we would fly at around 4,000 feet, and sometimes out over the Gulf, but we had a target run that we would fly, and the B-24s, we would pass them with our target, and depending on which side, or above them or below them, that the gunners then would shoot at the target.

01:03:10.420 - 01:03:32.940

And this was giving them practice for what they would be doing when they were in combat. It was while I was in this squadron that I met one of the -- well, I met a lot of pilots, but I met one particular pilot who was a B-24 pilot, and he had just returned from combat, so he was assigned as a B-24 pilot.

01:03:35.700 - 01:03:52.920

While we were in this squadron, at that point in time, there was no Doppler radar or anything to gauge the weather, except we had -- we would send up a weather ship. Any time the weather looked questionable, we would send

01:03:53.060 - 01:04:11.620

up a BT-13 or 15, which was a basic trainer, with a pilot and an observer in it, to go to check the clouds, to go through them or around them, whatever, and report back whether or not it would be acceptable for flying conditions

01:04:11.800 - 01:04:28.060

for the airplanes to fly. And it was just a chance that they would pull, decide which pilot, who would fly as pilot and who would fly as observer, and so that one person didn't get assigned to this every day.

01:04:28.550 - 01:04:41.120

But this one particular day, this one pilot that I had dated about three times, was assigned to fly as pilot and I was assigned as the observer to go up and check out the weather because it was questionable.

01:04:42.180 - 01:04:57.360

So we got up, we took off in this BT and the first thing that happened, our radio went out. Well, we always wore a pad, what we called a knee pad, with a pencil so that we could put down information on it.

01:04:58.220 - 01:05:09.140

And so we're flying and any information I would have to write down to let him know. But as we're flying, he's been used to flying B-24s, which is a four-engine bomber.

01:05:09.800 - 01:05:25.560

And to go from that to a single-engine airplane, he was over-correcting on the controls. And he was really -- it was really beginning to make me sick. So I just wrote on my little knee pad a little note to him and said,

01:05:26.120 - 01:05:44.680

"Please fly this thing straight and level. You're making me sick." And then as an afterthought, I had taken shorthand in high school, so to be cutesy, I guess, as an afterthought, I just wrote down in shorthand, "I love you."

01:05:45.060 - 01:06:02.320

And I passed the note up to him. Pretty soon, a note came back, and the only thing it had on it was, in shorthand, "I love you, too." At that point, if I had had a Bombay door, I would have been out of there.

01:06:03.600 - 01:06:22.520

Never would I have dreamed that here is this hot shot lieutenant, ex-combat pilot, that he would have taken shorthand in high school. There were no boys in my shorthand class, so I didn't know that any boys would ever take shorthand, but he had taken shorthand.

01:06:24.340 - 01:06:44.260

We got through that okay, and later on, two years later, I married that boy. So that was a great day, too. But I really loved flying the B-26. We stayed, I stayed at that air base, and in October, I believe it was, we got a notification

01:06:44.480 - 01:07:05.120

from General Arnold that said the WASPs were going to be disbanded on the 20th of December, 1944. I'm not sure at this point how I felt. I think that I felt like I had done my job, and if it was time to move on, it was time

01:07:05.200 - 01:07:16.820

to move on. We didn't protest. I didn't protest or anything. I just knew that on December 20th that I would pack my bags and I would leave and pay my

01:07:16.900 - 01:07:34.020

way wherever I needed to go. So that's what I did. But however, in the meantime, base operations at Tyndall had requested that we stay and work in base operations as dispatchers or work in the control towers as control tower

01:07:34.080 - 01:07:50.400

operators. So I decided to do that. So I became a dispatcher in base operations for a time. While I was doing that, the boy that I was dating was transferred down to Fort Myers

01:07:50.400 - 01:08:02.540

to go to B-29 to train to be a B-29 pilot. So I was kind of left there. In the meantime, my sister came up from Avon Park and she and I had an apartment together.

01:08:03.680 - 01:08:21.660

And I decided that we needed to go, we needed to leave there because it had a lot of memories and I needed to move on. So we pretty much took a dart and I had dated a boy in high school and after high school that I had cared a lot for,

01:08:21.760 - 01:08:32.840

and he had cared a lot for me. So he was stationed at Langley. He had been in Alaska and had come back to the States, and I knew he was stationed at Langley.

01:08:33.680 - 01:08:45.300

And we kind of threw a dart at the map and decided that we would go to Langley. Neither of us had a job, but I had a car. I had a '41 Mercury.

01:08:46.200 - 01:08:58.240

So we got in our car, put our bags in the back, and headed out for Langley Air Force Base. So when we got to Newport News, or to Hampton, we lived -- we were in a rooming house in Hampton.

01:08:59.280 - 01:09:14.120

And I went out to the base and applied to be an aircraft dispatcher. And they said, "We have no civilian aircraft dispatchers." And I said, "I think you should have one."

01:09:14.120 - 01:09:26.660

And at first, they just didn't know how that could happen, because they had never -- it was all enlisted men, and they had a captain who was in charge of base operations. But all of the people that worked

01:09:26.660 - 01:09:44.100

as dispatchers were airmen, enlisted people. But finally, I said to them, you know, you really should consider this, because this is where I belong. And finally, they created a civil service position

01:09:44.100 - 01:10:10.560

chief aircraft dispatcher and I was hired as the chief aircraft dispatcher in base operations. Well that's where I wanted to be. They had tried to get me to be a tower operator, but I knew I didn't want to be in that tower. Who do you see in a tower? I decided I not only wanted to talk to whoever these pilots were coming in for landings, I wanted to see

01:10:10.460 - 01:10:39.480

them in person. So that was the main reason I didn't become a tower operator. But I became the chief dispatcher in operations. And in the meantime, I met this boy that I had been in love with in high school. And we dated once. And I knew that that was when I knew that I really loved the other boy and decided that was the direction I was going. So I didn't

01:10:39.420 - 01:10:59.820

date him anymore and occasionally Bill was stationed down at Maxwell flying B-29s and he would fly up and we would date. Maxwell Field was down in Montgomery, Alabama. So eventually we became engaged after he got orders that he was going to be shipped out

01:10:59.820 - 01:11:23.480

to Panama to the Canal Zone. He got his orders to go and that's when we decided that maybe we should get married before he left. So we did get married at the chapel at Langley Air Force Base, had a beautiful military wedding with cross swords and my mom and my little brother came up from Florida

01:11:24.610 - 01:11:50.900

to come to the wedding and it was wonderful. Then we left and went to Greensboro, North Carolina until he was shipped out. And once he was -- we lived in a beautiful southern mansion in Greensboro with a family. And once he was shipped out to go to Panama, I went back to Langley and worked for maybe

01:11:51.020 - 01:12:11.580

a month or so until I knew that I'd be able to go to Panama to join him. And then I resigned and went back to Florida to be with my mom before I left for Panama. And my mom and my little brother went with me. I had at that point a Buick.

01:12:12.420 - 01:12:33.000

I had elevated myself up to a Buick. And we drove to Miami and stayed with my brother for a couple of days. I got on the airplane and flew to Panama and said goodbye to my mother for the last time, never realizing that I would never see her alive again.

01:12:33.520 - 01:12:55.920

But I went on to Panama, and when I got there, I was so excited. I had not seen this man that I had married for three months. And when I got off the airplane, I saw him standing over by a fence with many, many other people and I didn't recognize him because he had grown a beard, a mustache, but that

01:12:55.980 - 01:13:22.480

was exciting. We lived at first in a Panamanian home, which was lovely, but eventually we got quarters out at Howard Air Force Base, which was where he was stationed, and we had quarters there. And I became extremely bored doing nothing, so I applied for a job at Caribbean Air Command

01:13:22.560 - 01:13:48.380

Headquarters, which was in Panama, and got a job as a secretary and stayed there until we got the quarters. After we got quarters at Howard Air Force Base, then I applied at Howard for a job, And I was hired as the personal private secretary to the director of operations for the 6th

01:13:48.380 - 01:14:13.620

Air Force, which was a very prestigious job. In that job, I was able, whenever the secretary, private secretary for the commanding general of the 6th Air Force, if she was not able to be there or if she was sent someplace, I would fill in as the Secretary to the Commanding General, which was very exciting.

01:14:14.640 - 01:14:30.060

But we stayed in Panama. In the meantime, we decided to buy a new car from the states, and this was right after everything had been rationed and they started building cars again, because I went to Panama in 1946.

01:14:30.900 - 01:14:58.720

But we came back to the states and picked up a brand new Buick convertible. So you can imagine when we got back to Panama with that Buick, green Buick convertible, we were sought out for people to look and take a ride in this new Buick convertible. But we stayed there and eventually at Christmas in 1948, for our Christmas decoration, we

01:14:58.760 - 01:15:31.360

had put up a fake fireplace, because in Panama you don't have fireplaces. But we put up a fake fireplace and Christmas morning when my husband woke up and we went downstairs to see our Christmas gifts that Santa had left, Santa had left a little teeny baby crocheted stocking and it said, "Happy Father's Day, 1949."

01:15:31.360 - 01:15:52.440

And that was the first time he knew that we were expecting a little bundle in the next summer. When I was about eight months pregnant, the Air Force decided that I should -- I would either have to stay in Panama for an extended length of time over his -- because we'd already

01:15:52.520 - 01:16:16.720

been there three years, almost four -- that we would have to -- no, it had been three years. We would have to stay much longer than we were scheduled to stay or we would have to leave then in order that I get back to the states and have that child in the states. So they decided, we requested to come back to the states. So we got on a ship out of

01:16:16.560 - 01:16:33.140

of Panama and went to the harbor at Norfolk, the naval yard on this ship. We stopped in the Virgin Islands, and then we came on up to Norfolk.

01:16:34.020 - 01:16:49.000

And I was eight months pregnant. We picked up another brand new Buick there, and we had the one shipped from Panama, the convertible. So our new station was at Lowry Air Force Base in Colorado,

01:16:49.100 - 01:17:00.600

at Denver. So Bill and I drove cross country. I drove the convertible, and he drove the other new car. And we went to Atlanta to visit his parents.

01:17:01.200 - 01:17:13.840

And then we drove on to Denver. At one point out in Pecos, Texas, we were in a motel. And I thought maybe we might have a little Texan. But we didn't.

01:17:14.100 - 01:17:32.460

We went on to Denver and bought a house and were in that house when we had our first little girl out at Fitzsimmons Army Hospital in Denver. In the meantime, my mother had died and my little brother

01:17:32.460 - 01:17:49.100

who was nine years old was left. Although my father was still alive, he really was not able to parent that young child by himself. So when we got to Denver, my little brother came to live

01:17:49.100 - 01:18:02.960

with us in Denver and to go to school. We stayed in Denver. Bill was out at Lowry, and we stayed there for three years, and then he got orders to go to Japan.

01:18:04.840 - 01:18:26.940

So he left to go to Japan, and I was left with these two little children to sell the house or to do something. So I sold our home, and I was on the way to Seattle. I had gotten orders to go to Seattle to go on a troop ship to Japan.

01:18:28.120 - 01:18:49.560

And just before I left Lowry, or left Denver, my husband received orders to go to Korea because the Korean War had started. And he immediately had to go all the way to the top general and said, "My wife is already on the way.

01:18:50.460 - 01:19:20.000

I did my—I served in combat, and can you get these orders changed?" The commanding general had his orders changed so that he didn't have to go to Korea. So Nancy and Walton and I got on board a troop ship in Seattle. It was amazing, because one whole deck of that ship was just loaded with all these troops

01:19:20.120 - 01:19:35.840

going to Korea. And as we left the harbor, it was really—there were so many tears. Of course, I was happy that I was going, but the boys above me were not happy and their families who were at that dock to see them off were not happy.

01:19:36.000 - 01:19:56.320

So I saw lots of tears shed that day as we pulled out of that harbor. When we were out on the high seas, we ran into a big storm and everybody got sick. So that was kind of a rough trip. It took us two weeks to get to Yokohama.

01:19:57.360 - 01:20:19.980

I'll never forget the night before we pulled into Yokohama Bay. But at that time, this was 1953 in February, they still had up the submarine nets out in the harbor. So we could not go up into the harbor until the next morning, because they had to let

01:20:19.780 - 01:20:35.940

down those nets in order for us to, for the ship to go through. And they would only do it in the daylight. So the next morning, though, we pulled into the harbor, into Yokohama, and pulled up to the docking place.

01:20:36.010 - 01:20:56.560

In the meantime, the night before, Nancy had broken out with these little pimples all over her face. And I took her, I knew what it was and I knew that if I took her to the dispensary that they wouldn't let me off that ship, that she would be quarantined, we would be.

01:20:57.300 - 01:21:19.620

So I just didn't tell anybody, but I knew it was chickenpox. So I just bundled her up in her little snowsuit with her little hood and we were standing at that rail when we pulled up to that dock and I saw Bill down below. When we got off the ship, he had borrowed an old beat-up -- in fact, I think he had

01:21:19.680 - 01:21:40.200

bought an old beat-up car because he had no way of transportation. No, I need to back up because I think on that -- when we landed, he had a staff car. But in the meantime, he had bought this old beat-up car that he had coat hangers around the door on my side because the door wouldn't stay shut.

01:21:40.700 - 01:21:59.960

But he was so lucky to find a car. In the meantime, they had our car in Seattle and it would come over on another ship. He took us out to a Japanese house, which was really exciting. It was a little two-story house.

01:21:59.960 - 01:22:24.400

It had the biggest thing in it was the Japanese bathtub, where you could all get in at one time and take a bath. But we lived in, and we call these the boondocks, because that's where we lived until we found a house in the outskirts of Tokyo that a banker, he had been a banker, had trained in New York,

01:22:24.960 - 01:22:42.900

had been a very wealthy man before the war. But he and his wife boarded up just one room on the back of the house, and they lived in that room and then they rented out the rest of the house to us. And they were delighted to do it because it was income

01:22:43.040 - 01:22:54.580

from them that they did not have. But this house was out several miles from the air base where Bill was stationed. There was also government housing, Washington Heights

01:22:54.660 - 01:23:07.540

and Grand Heights, which were places that dependents lived. But you had to get on a list to be accepted there. So we lived out in the boondocks for about nine months. And while we were out in the boondocks,

01:23:08.260 - 01:23:24.420

we were really ecstatic because we knew that we were going to have another little baby. And that was so exciting to us. In the meantime, Bill was stationed out at Haneda Airport,

01:23:25.090 - 01:23:41.600

which was the Air Force base for the transport command. and he would fly and be gone for days at a time. He would go to Thailand or Hong Kong or all over the Pacific on flights.

01:23:42.260 - 01:24:01.180

This was called Matz, was the designation of that base, was a Matz base. So a lot of times I was left by myself, but we had a Japanese maid and the Japanese maid would take over and do all the things

01:24:01.180 - 01:24:12.440

that I was not able to do at that time. And you wanna hold that a minute, 'cause I need to get a-- No.

01:24:13.880 - 01:24:18.540

Where are we? We're in-- - You found out you were pregnant, and you're in Tokyo.

01:24:18.720 - 01:24:31.940

- Right. And eventually we got housing at Washington Heights. And because my little brother lived with us, and I already had one child and was expecting another,

01:24:32.570 - 01:24:44.300

we got a single family home, which was wonderful. We had three bedrooms and two baths and full-time maid, and it was great. - Did you love Japan?

01:24:45.160 - 01:24:55.100

- I loved Japan. I spent a lot of my time doing things with the Officers' Wives Club, because I had full-time help,

01:24:55.880 - 01:25:06.720

and we didn't need gardeners because we were living on post, so that I had a lot of free time to spend doing fun things. Did it ever come up that you were a WASP?

01:25:07.980 - 01:25:36.380

I believe that during my time, my early years of marriage, and up until the last two or three years, my WASP experience was something that I did. It was behind me and I really didn't talk about it. So it's only been since Nancy, my daughter, started the Wings Across America project that

01:25:36.380 - 01:25:54.120

I really have begun to speak out about my experiences as a WASP. But up until that time, I thought, "Who cares?" And I just didn't ever talk about it. But I have found out in the last few years that people really do care.

01:25:55.080 - 01:26:16.200

And that's why I'm telling you my story, is because I truly believe now that people are beginning to care that we were the first women in the history of America to fly military aircraft and that it was so unusual. And I knew it was unusual, but to me it was a duty.

01:26:17.620 - 01:26:31.680

And I believe at the beginning and during World War II that young people felt that it was their duty to do whatever their country needed them to do. And that's what we did without question. We just automatically did it.

01:26:32.040 - 01:26:51.960

Do you believe you were a part of history? I believe that we were a part of history, but I believe everything is a part of history. And that what we did was not more important than what other people did. We just did the things that we were capable of doing.

01:26:52.720 - 01:27:08.460

But the girls who worked in aircraft factories, I think they were important. Their job was important. During World War II, it was everybody working together, whatever they could do to help. But your job was dangerous.

01:27:10.160 - 01:27:31.280

Our job was dangerous. You're asking me too many questions. Yes, there were times that I was uncomfortable. I'll never forget once taking a BT up on an engineering test flight and getting it up

01:27:31.280 - 01:27:55.180

at about eight, ten thousand feet. I think it was probably about eight thousand feet. and ringing it out, which means that you do spins or do slow rolls or snap rolls. And it got into a flat spin, and I spun almost to the ground before I could ever get it out

01:27:55.180 - 01:28:12.220

of that spin. And I believe that was the most afraid that I have ever been. But there were times that were not as pleasant as other times when you had an airplane that had things wrong with it.

01:28:12.820 - 01:28:38.840

But somehow you got through them because that was your job and you did your job. Do you feel like you're a role model for women? I think the WASP in general, as a group, I don't ever think of myself as a role model, but I believe the WASP organization in itself and the women that were in it are role models.

01:28:40.040 - 01:29:11.320

And I think they are because I believe that they proved that you can do anything you want in today's society that that is a challenge for young people to look to others who have done things that were unusual. And they did it with integrity and with honesty

01:29:11.810 - 01:29:31.920

and with courage and with patriotism. And I think that's important for young people today to realize that there were people before them did things that were were dangerous but in order for this country to be free that's what it took

01:29:32.680 - 01:29:45.280

and they did it without question. So where do you want me to go from here? Well I want you to go back to that baby that was fixing to be born. Oh she's... Okay now, almost a minute. Might as well, I could stop it here

01:29:46.680 - 01:30:06.040

because if you get you're going to get started on a story. When you went to college. Right. >> Yeah, eventually in January of 1954,

01:30:07.100 - 01:30:28.260

I did have that little baby girl. And we stayed on in Tokyo for about, it was over a year. We came back to the states in 1955 and were stationed at -- first we went to West Palm Beach for Bill to go

01:30:28.260 - 01:30:40.940

to an instrument school and then we were stationed at McGuire Air Force Base in New Jersey. While I was there I was real active with the Officers Wives Club and that's where Nancy started to school.

01:30:41.440 - 01:30:53.080

Then we were sent down to Maxwell Air Force Base where Bill went through Command and Staff College. We were there for a year, and that's when Barbie started school. But she started in a private school,

01:30:53.620 - 01:31:07.060

and therefore she started a little bit young. Then we were transferred to Ellington Air Force Base in Houston, and Bill was the executive officer of the Civil Air Patrol for the National Headquarters.

01:31:08.200 - 01:31:27.880

So we lived in Houston, and the girls went to school in Houston, and we stayed there for another 20 years. Bill retired when he was given orders to go to Jeddah, Saudi Arabia. The girls did not want to leave school

01:31:28.120 - 01:31:44.200

because they had been moved so many times. So he decided to request retirement. So we retired at Ellington and then stayed there up until 1981 when our two girls were at --

01:31:44.200 - 01:31:57.220

we had sent both of them to Baylor University. So in 1981, we decided to move to Waco to be near two little grandchildren. And we moved to Waco.

01:31:57.860 - 01:32:15.580

In the meantime, in 1975, one -- Nancy had gone into a showbiz acting type -- performing type career. We had sent Barbie to Baylor and I had been volunteering

01:32:15.940 - 01:32:32.440

at the Houston Baptist Memorial Hospital. As a volunteer, I did almost all of their flower arrangements for the gift shop and I had been doing that for years since we moved to Houston.

01:32:33.200 - 01:32:46.880

Actually in 1961, I started volunteering. And then I decided Barbie was gone and Nancy was gone and I needed something else to do. So I decided to go back or to go to college.

01:32:47.100 - 01:32:55.680

I'd only had a little junior college when we were in the Panama Canal zone. I'd gone to junior college some. But I decided to go back to school.

01:32:56.440 - 01:33:06.340

So I entered the University of Houston thinking that I would just take courses that I enjoyed. I wasn't going for a degree. I was just going to just have something to do

01:33:06.340 - 01:33:23.880

and enjoy courses and started out thinking, well I'll take some interior design courses. And then I decided, well maybe I'll take some television courses and I really enjoyed those television courses because I was able to be

01:33:23.880 - 01:33:43.100

in front of the camera for some and have my own program on Saturday morning sometime in a class as part of our class assignment. It was a PBS station and we were able to take over on Saturday morning and provide the programming.

01:33:43.940 - 01:34:03.240

So sometimes I would be the sole person on that program. So I enjoyed that and once I got involved I thought, well, I might as well go for a degree if I'm going to be here anyway. So then I started taking some of the other courses

01:34:03.240 - 01:34:31.200

that were required for a degree. Consequently, in 1979, I graduated with a degree in hotel management with a summa cum laude position in my class. And I was recruited by NASA to be kind of the liaison person

01:34:31.200 - 01:34:43.560

between NASA and the University of Houston. And, but after meeting with them several times, I decided I really didn't want a job. I didn't want to be tied down to anything,

01:34:43.920 - 01:34:56.680

so I declined that opportunity. But at that point, it was to work on the space station as they were, this was the very beginning of the space station effort.

01:34:57.360 - 01:35:09.500

And they knew they had to have eating facilities and sleeping facilities. And that would have been part of my job, would have been to have helped with that section of it.

01:35:10.440 - 01:35:21.780

But I declined that. And in 1980, when Barbie had a little boy, she invited us to move to Waco because she wasn't coming back to Houston. And we didn't move.

01:35:21.860 - 01:35:32.940

But the next year when she had a little girl, Her dad said we're moving. So we moved to Waco to be near the grandchildren. And that's where we are today.

01:35:33.760 - 01:35:48.740

And I volunteer with the Waco Welcome Corps. And this is a wonderful, wonderful life. So now we're going to go back. Cut it.

01:35:49.250 - 01:35:56.920

>> Okay. Pausing. Okay. All right. We're rolling. Tell us about Miami.

01:35:57.480 - 01:36:22.940

When I was a senior in high school, I took shorthand and I took typing and all those good things. And my teacher got a request from the FBI for two students to go to Miami to take the test to work for the FBI in Washington.

01:36:24.220 - 01:36:39.980

So my teacher selected me and the girl who was a salutatorian of my class to be the ones to go. So I had -- I was -- I excelled in shorthand and typing. So I knew I had no problem.

01:36:40.200 - 01:36:58.260

So we went to Miami. And for us, that was a big deal because Miami was 200 miles away from Avon Park. So we went on the train to Miami, and we were interviewed by this FBI person, and then we we were given this test. And we were given the shorthand test and I did fine. And then

01:36:58.360 - 01:37:19.060

we were given the typing test. And for some reason, and I'll never know, yes, I do know, God was in control. That's why. But when I started taking that typing test and I was -- I had the best accuracy rate in my class. But when I started taking it, for some reason, I made three mistakes in the first sentence.

01:37:20.140 - 01:37:31.240

And I knew that I had blown this test. So I finished the test and I didn't say a word. I didn't ask to start over. I didn't ask to retake it.

01:37:31.720 - 01:37:49.200

But I knew I had not passed that test. So sure enough, we came back to Avon Park and shortly thereafter, Nellene, the other girl, was notified that she had gotten the job with the FBI and I was never notified.

01:37:50.240 - 01:38:06.380

So Nellene went on to Washington to work for the FBI. But this is -- this was a lesson for me. And as I look back at it now, I can say to younger people that failure is not always failure.

01:38:06.880 - 01:38:30.120

It's simply a change in direction. And I think that is a shining example because had I gotten that job with the FBI, I would never have become a WASP. So to me, it was not failure. It was just God pointing me in a different direction, the direction He wanted me to go,

01:38:30.740 - 01:38:50.380

not where I had decided to go at that point. So that was a lesson for me, and I think it's a lesson for young people today. Don't give up. What's happening in your life right now? Today, I live in Waco. I lost my husband six years ago, which was a tremendous blow to me.

01:38:51.300 - 01:39:03.540

But I realized he would not want me to simply sit. How long were you married? We were married for 49 years. So it has been a big adjustment for me.

01:39:04.440 - 01:39:17.460

But I have decided I must carry on. I have two wonderful grandchildren. One is a sophomore at Baylor, and the other, the girl, is a freshman at Baylor.

01:39:17.920 - 01:39:37.240

So I have a lot to live for. I have a lot still that I can contribute to society, I think. And I've been extremely blessed to have been asked to give speeches about the WASP to different organizations,

01:39:37.580 - 01:39:50.560

And that's an honor for me to be able to do that. At first I was reluctant because I felt it might be that someone might construe it as bragging. But I no longer feel that way.

01:39:50.770 - 01:40:02.080

I feel like it is history. And history needs to be preserved. In addition to that, three years ago, Nancy decided that history did need to be preserved.

01:40:02.800 - 01:40:20.300

And when she was unable to find the history of the wasp in the libraries and in the books in high schools, she decided she would do something about it. So she has a project underway with Baylor University called Wings Across America, and

01:40:20.480 - 01:40:23.680

I am the WASP consultant on Wings Across America.