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So she gave her story to you. I think that's pretty neat. And we do reach a large population. We get calls every week. We even have kids, 16, 17, 18, that are getting ready to get out of school. Who want to join the Air Force. Who want to join the Air Force. They watch our show to find out about different jobs.

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So we're a really good recruiting tool as far as the Air Force goes. We're on the radio. Of course we do stories every day. We have a twice a month show. It's on the internet, plus it's worldwide. Aren't you lucky. Plus he looks so nice.

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He's a nice looking guy. Well, Kevin, you'll be interested to know, you're not Academy though. No, no. I'm going to the Academy. I've been invited to go. It's been postponed since the 13th of September.

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And now it'll be the 29th of November for the weekend. I'm Deanie Parrish with Wings Across America. Today we're interviewing Dawn Seymour. Dawn was a WASP, Class 43W5. We are in her home in Green Valley, Arizona.

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Today is the 5th of November, 2001. The videographer is Nancy Parrish. Okay, Dawn, if you'll start off by telling us your full name, when and where you were born, and something about your mom and dad and your family. My full name, well I have a lot of names.

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My original name was Dawn Yvonne Rocow. R-O-C-H-O-W. And I married during the service to First Lieutenant William E. Baldwin. And he was killed at the end of the war, and later in 1956, I found Morton Seymour, and we married in 1956.

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And this is the 45th anniversary of our wedding. So it was an important year for us. We have, I had a son. Oh, no, you want to go back to my mother. Okay.

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Well, I want to go back to where you were born. I was born in Rochester, New York. My father, Arthur J. Rocow, came from New York City. He was born in Brooklyn, New York.

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And my mother was born in Oak Park, Illinois, in the Chicago area. And they had married in Little Rock, Arkansas, where I was conceived. Mother was traveling. She was with a Chautauqua group from the University of Chicago Extension with her sisters.

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And they were the Timmy Sister Quartet. And dad had chased her around the country. And finally persuaded her sisters that this was the right thing to do, and so they were married in a little town outside of Little Rock, Arkansas.

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Mother was a soprano, and she played the cello, and very musical, and a trained musician. My father was an adventurer, and he loved powerful motors, and had traveled all over the country, first by motorcycle. He climbed Pike's Peak with his buddies way back, I guess, 1914, '15, something like that.

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Pike's Peak or bust. And so he was the adventurer, and Mother had, in this experience she had with her sisters, was traveling from North Dakota to Louisiana, and to New York State, and to Missouri. And so she had had a great deal of experience.

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They settled in Rochester, New York. And I was born. My dad had been married before. His wife had died.

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And his mother, my grandmother Emily, Earhart was her name. Actually, her nickname was Amelia Earhart. It was spelled differently. Interesting. Brought my sister Dorothy to Rochester when Mother first arrived,

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and so she settled into not only matrimony, but into child rearing. And I wish by that time she was pregnant with me. She was pregnant, as I said, on her wedding night. And it was a shock to her, I think.

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And what did your dad do in Rochester? Dad was in the motorcycle business, and then he was in the Ford Motor Company. He and his friend George Wagner had a car dealership. Did you have other siblings beside the one sister?

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Yes, and they came right along. First Dorothy, then Dawn. My sister Joanne is 18 months younger. And then Mother had twins, Dick and Frank Rocco,

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who later were football players for Cornell University, great big guys. Ten years passed, and Mother had started to go back to the Eastman School of Music to resume her career, and she was pregnant. This time she had Ruth Irene in 1930 and my sister Phyllis in 1935.

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My sister Ruth Irene followed the Mother's theater career and graduated from the University of Arizona later with an MFA. When you were a small child, what kind of house--did you live in town or out of town? Interestingly enough, when I was just going into first grade, we moved to the country.

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Mother called it the country because she had been a city person, and so had my father. They had first lived in Rochester, New York, and with all these little children, she just couldn't take this excitement of all the children and the street and everything. So she said to Dad she had to move, and so they found this wonderful spot called Long Meadow.

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It was about six miles out of Rochester and a mile out of Pittsburgh, New York. It was a small community of homes. It was probably one of the first suburbs that existed. We had three and a half acres. We had a pond and a creek. We had fields. We played baseball.

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We could go skiing. We could go swimming in the Erie Canal. We had this absolutely--we had woods. We had a fantastic childhood. As a young child, what was a Christmas like in your home? Oh, Christmas. I go back to candles on the Christmas tree.

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Actually, we had this large porch that was enclosed and not heated in the winter, and Dad would set up a tree. This is when I was quite small, I believe. He always insisted we have breakfast and line up with the little ones first, back to the older ones, and singing our carols.

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He would light the Christmas tree, and it was a special day. Do you remember any of the ornaments? Did you help put on ornaments? Yes. We had some of the old German blown glass ornaments. We had popcorn rings that we'd leave on the tree later for the birds, string cranberries.

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Mother had something that was interesting. Her tradition was the candy house, the Hansel and Gretel candy house. One year we put on the performance later at school. I was the witch, and my sister was Gretel.

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She made a candy house for the cast of the production, and there were a thousand anise candies. Those little red candies, they looked like tile. We'd all make animals out of gumdrops. That's a tradition kept up today.

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What was Christmas dinner like? Our family, as you can tell by looking at me, loved to eat. My dad was 6'1" and 200 pounds, and Mother was shorter than I. Her idea of food were the delicacies, the cookies, the koukens, the pies and cakes.

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Her delight was to make a beautiful confection and actually present it at the table. That was her hobby. Sometimes we even had geese that we had on the pond ourselves. Was it a big family gathering?

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You see, we didn't have relatives in Rochester. They were in New York. My father's one sister lived in South America, one in Maine, one in Philadelphia, one in California. My mother's family all lived in the Chicago area.

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Sometimes we'd go to Chicago, and he'd pile us in the car, and we'd drive overnight. He had a seven-passenger Cadillac, and he would take us to-- these were events during those years-- and take us to Michigan City, where we had cousins.

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Tell me about your grandparents. My grandparents. I did not know my maternal grandmother, who was born overseas in Denmark. She came to this country and married Frank Timmy,

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who was the son of a family who had moved to Chicago and then had moved pioneering in Oklahoma-- pardon me, Nebraska, because it's-- what is the capital of Nebraska? Omaha.

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And he had been an early rancher, and then he'd come back, and my grandfather came back. I knew my grandfather, and he was a cheerful man and a musician and played the clarinet and had taught all his children music.

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Now, on my father's side, Amelia married-- interestingly enough, she was about 18 1/2 when she married my grandfather, Ferdinand Roco, who was an accomplished engineer who'd come from Germany

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and had his own business and had a machine shop where he employed the story ghosts, over 200 people, and lived on a block square in Brooklyn where he had a supporting garden and horses and everything in those days.

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My dad was born in 1887, and my mother was born in 1893. Do you recall your first day of going to school? Absolutely. Tell us about it.

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As I told you, we lived in Long Meadow, and there was a field behind us and a path that went-- it was the back way, not using the main streets. And Mother let me walk to school or walk home, apparently. And I can remember dilly-dallying and watching things grow

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and had secret places where I could-- and I'd stop on the bridge looking down over the Erie Canal and watch the tugboats go through and think, "Someday I'll go-- where are they going?

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What adventure are they going to have?" And I'm sure that gave me sort of a wanderlust, too. How far was school? A mile.

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A mile. And I'm sure that's why I'm so healthy. Right. We had to walk, no school buses, of course.

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Even in the wintertime? Even in the wintertime. What was your school building like? It was a building that was built before World War I,

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and it included kindergarten through 12th. And the kindergarten and the first grade were on the lower floor, and 2 to 7 were on the second floor, and then 8th grade and high school was on the top floor.

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And I think there were 32 in my graduating class. And it was almost like a private education-- [phone rings] There goes the phone.

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[phone rings] Maura? Are you stopping? Could we pull the--

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They had locks on the canal. Right. Okay, go ahead. In elementary school, do you recall any teacher

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that might have influenced you in any way that you were-- I think I was influenced perhaps by most of my teachers. They were career women, professional women. And you're talking about grammar school now.

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And certainly Miss Morris was my first grade teacher, and she was a disciplinarian and spare on speech and very disciplined. My second grade teacher was warm and fuzzy.

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My third grade teacher wrote in my little book that I had at the time, "A happy girl is dawn, she is sunshiny all day long," and I have remembered that. So she picked out your best qualities

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and reaffirmed them to you, which I thought was wonderful. In 5th grade, I wanted to be either an actress-- of course that was because of my mother, I'm sure-- or an aviatrix, because that was the time

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when Amelia Earhart was in the news. Do you recall seeing airplanes as a small child? Yes, there was a field outside of Pitzer called Breezy Airport, and I remember seeing them.

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My dad was very interested in aviation, and he went up in the '20s when probably a pilot came through giving rides, but he wouldn't take us up. He took Mother up.

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During your childhood, did you take vacations during the summer? No, I think because we lived in this wonderful outdoor world, we had people come, the cousins from South America would come, the cousins and aunts from Philadelphia would come.

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We would have 15, 16, 18 people, and we slept in tents. Mother had, as we grew older, we had 2 tents. They were Army-issue from World War I, right way at the corner of the property,

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where there's a creek and then a hill, and there's a boy's tent and a girl's tent, and we slept out. That's how she handled the additional load of people. Do you recall some of the games you played as a child?

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Well, I played WanaCat, baseball, and the thrill was to be chosen. [laughs] Before another boy, a boy would be chosen, so that was good,

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and I was good at baseball. Also, we had the pond, and we must have had colder winters in those days because the pond would freeze, and we'd play WanaCat and something, something, breakaway,

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and crack the whip. Since my brothers were born on the 27th of December and my sister the 30th of December, this was party time, and Mother opened a house.

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She opened it to any child from Pittsburgh who wished to come down and skate, and she'd have cocoa and cuckoo for them and let them cut her linoleum floor with her skates.

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But it was just a wonderful time. In your early years at school, say even through junior high, did you have extracurricular activities connected with school? Sports, of course, but I don't think we had as many in grammar school.

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In high school, yes, we had a sorority, and it was a service sorority. We had a Latin club, a French club, things like that. By the time you reached junior high, what was your dream? What was your goal?

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I loved to read, so school was easy for me, and I loved history, and so I read voraciously. I must have gone through the library just reading whatever book I wanted to read. I particularly liked adventure, and I particularly liked biography,

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which I like today. What kind of student were you? I was an A student. When you went on into high school, then you were up on the second floor,

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what was your favorite subject in high school? My favorite subject I think has always been history, and this is a good question because I'm thinking about it today. Our principal taught a class of civics,

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what makes a citizen of the United States of America, and perhaps his name was Albert Helmkamp. He was a tall man, and you couldn't hear a pin drop when he walked into the room. But I think he imbued us with a sense of the early fathers

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and their feeling of what is America, and not only that you have freedom, but you have responsibility as a citizen. And perhaps if we could do this today again, teach a class, where you understand your rights as a citizen,

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but also your responsibilities as a citizen, we might have less friction. During high school, what were your social activities like? I joined a dance club that was held by a young, I think she was a senior, and we had had a dance class as everybody does in fifth grade, I guess,

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where you wear the white gloves and so forth. But I wasn't a social butterfly in high school. I didn't bloom until late college, probably. In high school, did they have a speech department, drama department?

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We had drama from the time we were little, and it was a community drama. Mrs. Helmkamp was the leader, and that would happen in the town hall. Were you ever in any plays? Oh, yes, I was always in the play. As I said, I was the witch in "Hansel and Gretel."

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And as far as music in high school? We had glee club, and as far as instruments went, I was very challenged by music. I studied piano for years. In fact, I even helped my piano teacher to earn lessons.

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And it's simply the mind does not grasp the note to the keyboard. And even with Morse code later, I had difficulty because I don't have that kind of visual connection to the fingers. So I couldn't learn. I couldn't do a trumpet, for instance.

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I'd have to go in and say, "That's a C and that's an A." It was painful. And here my sister could just-- I could just learn so quickly. Before you graduated from high school,

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did you already have plans in place of what you would be doing after high school? Now, we have to consider the depression here. My father lost his dealership, and he found a position. He was a wonderful salesman, and he had seven children by now--

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well, six children, I guess you'd say. Phyllis was born in '35. And he became a salesman for a flour, F-L-O-U-R milling company in Buffalo, New York.

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And through that, he discovered that these bakers had these very worn hands. They would take these cutters, donut cutters and cookie cutters, biscuit cutters, and they'd wrap these tin cutters with towels to prevent the cutter from cutting the hand.

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And he said, "There must be a better way." And so he invented this all-in-one-piece steel donut cutter, which we still sell today. That's our local swirl mixer business.

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And he also developed a swirl mixer for shaking up a dry and wet ingredient. And he sold those later-- isn't it interesting how the depression jumps you into another path? He sold Stanley Home products.

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I don't know if you remember them. But they were used as--the swirl mixers were used as premiums. And he'd sell thousands at one time. And so that was his business, and he did very well.

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His bakery business--and there's another story coming up in 1940 when we developed our sales outlets. But as far as plans to go home-- I had applied for Cornell, the College of Home Economics.

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We didn't have, of course, a guidance counselor. And I didn't know how I was going to get the money to go. And I had earned some money, but it was difficult. A coke was a nickel.

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Can you imagine? Can you recall your high school prom? Yes. I went to the high school prom. I don't think I had a particularly wonderful time, but I participated.

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And I had no feelings toward boys. I watched my little 13-year-old granddaughter, and I think, "Oh, my goodness, my life was not boys, and we skated and competed." I think that was probably where I was growing up emotionally then.

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Tell me about your graduation. My graduation--well, you're bringing up good subjects. My graduation was quite emotional in a sense. Mother was in the hospital, and she had just had Phyllis, my sister,

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that June of '35. And so I was valedictorian, and I gave the speech, and I had no event afterwards. It was sort of an end of a chapter, how I described it to myself.

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Do you recall about your speech what you spoke about? I guess trying hard. Worked hard. Did your school have caps and gowns?

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Yes, we did. I think they were blue. Some of these things I don't even recall. But the stage was set high, and it was in the gym, of course.

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One purpose. Let me ask you how involved your parents were with you children as you went through school. They were very involved.

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Dad was head of the PTA, and Mother was always involved. They knew the helm came socially. It was a small community. I don't think Pitzer was lit.

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It was probably around 1,200 people. Can you tell me how important you think that is to a child? Well, I think very strongly about this. I think that kids, when they go to a school,

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I'm not in favor of ending their first school at fifth grade. I believe they should at least go through eighth grade so they can be older and help the younger people. Once you move kids in blocks, fifth, sixth, and seventh,

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to this school, and then eighth, ninth, and so forth to this school, the kids never get a chance to be grown up. They're always with their own little group so they don't have the differences of age and experience.

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You had mentioned earlier about a sorority in high school. Tell me about that. Oh, I don't remember too much about it, frankly. I know I was chosen president of it,

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and we had meetings in various homes, and we did projects for the school, but nothing sticks out. When you finished high school, then what did you do next? Well, next I--here I--

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I think what happened is that my father said to me-- Mother was put to bed by the doctor. She was asked to stay in bed because of various health reasons. And he gave me this little baby, and he said,

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"She's yours to take care of and help your mother." So I did that summer, and so I was feeling closed in. I was supposed to go to Cornell in September, and as I said, I didn't know exactly where the money was coming from.

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I had these responsibilities at home. All of a sudden, my Latin teacher called. In those days, we took 3 years of Latin and 3 years of French, and you took 3 years of history.

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It was quite a curriculum. And she said, "Now, Dawn, you must go, "and Harriet's going to come over. "My daughter's coming over, and she will take you to Cornell.

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"She'll take you to the Dean of Women's Office "and just see what happens. "Pack your bag." And she gave me a check for $25.

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My father gave me a check for $25, and away I went with one suitcase to the Dean of Women's. And sure enough, Miss Fitch was her name, and she said, "Go over and see the head of the housing

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"and see what she can do for you." And sure enough, I was able to get a job at Willard Straight, which is the student union, and signed up there for my room in the dormitory,

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and frankly didn't know quite how I was going to pay for it. But I had that check, you see. And then I was able to get an NYA job. Now, an NYA job-- National Youth Administration.

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And this was one of Roosevelt's good ideas. You could earn 50 cents an hour. The going wage then was 35 cents an hour for untrained people. And you could get 50 cents an hour,

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and you could work 30 hours. That meant $15. And I worked at the physical education department and took posture pictures.

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Now, posture pictures-- You'd line up a posture picture with a girl in just her--all together, her broad panties, against a screen,

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and I had to do the film and take the film out and put it in the baths and so forth, hang them up to dry, and that was my job. And then later I typed. I could type.

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That was one thing I've always been able to do. And I could type, and I typed for the head of the physical education department. Miss Bateman was her name.

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And so I--and then I stayed that Thanksgiving. I waited tables and stayed that Thanksgiving and made tips and so forth, which was--and I just kept going, kept going.

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And you never have to worry, you know, about paying for everything at once. You just pay the increments, the bills that come with the time. - How far were you from home?

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- I was about 90 miles. - How did you get back and forth when you did go home? Did you go home for Christmas? - I went home for Christmas.

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There was a train that went to Rochester, as I recall. Or my dad, who was traveling, would stop, pick us up. - And when you started Cornell, did you have a major in mind? - Well, I was home economics,

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and the joy of this college was that you could take half of your work at the university. So if you wanted to take psychology, English, journalism, biology, you took--

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it's the most fabulous course I've ever had at Cornell. It was a girls' school in a major co-ed university. So you had that feeling of smallness and the feeling of bigness,

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and you could have--it was the best of two worlds for me. - During those early years at Cornell, did you make lasting friendships? - Oh, yes.

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In fact, I was back with my 60th reunion in 19-- well, whatever, 60--how many years is it? I graduated in '39, so you'll have to add that up. And maybe it was the 60th, 55th, whatever, 60th.

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June Thorne, yes, we went together. Oh, yeah, they're good buddies. - Okay. At Cornell, did you have outside activities

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other than just academics? - By working in a--yes, I was limited. I did join the journalism group, and we met with our professor, Bristow Adams,

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on a Monday night. I attended the concerts that came through. Wonderful people came through. Bailey Hall, we had fine orchestras and soloists,

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and I always--and I went to church. The chapel had visiting ministers, high repute. - As a young child, had you grown up going to church? - Yes.

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- While you were in Cornell, did you join a sorority? - No, I joined Erite, which was a group of-- 'cause I wasn't able to afford it. I'm sorry to say.

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- Do you recall anyone who was a big influence on your life while you were at Cornell? Or I could ask you, who were your role models? - I think I was pretty well formed then

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with my role models. It wasn't until after I was out of school that I had Dr. Richard Parmeter, who helped me-- who opened the door to flying for me,

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who I'd call a role model. - As a young child growing up, who were your role models? - Well, I'm sure my mother was probably-- and I looked up to both my mother and father.

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And I admired my aunt, who had-- her husband had died, and she'd come back to Ithaca College to become a speech therapist and was working in the Philadelphia schools.

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I thought that was pretty smart. I think I admired any woman who had a career. And I did have one person, yes. Dr. Flora Rose was the director of our college.

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Tall woman, who was a friend of Elmer Roosevelt's. And Elmer Roosevelt came to speak at the Farm and Home Week. She was governor's wife then. And I was her escort one time,

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and I admired her very much. She had to overcome a terrible voice, and people would laugh at her. She spoke at Bailey Hall in this high, squeaky voice.

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But she was a remarkable woman, and I did admire her tremendously. And Flora Rose then, in her senior year, taught a class in women.

00:31:27.000 - 00:31:39.000

And right up the-- Cornell is on Cayuga Lake, and at the other end of Cayuga Lake, and just a little way over is Seneca Falls, New York. And at Seneca Falls, we had, of course, the birthplace--

00:31:39.000 - 00:31:57.000

not the birthplace, but the-- It was the 1848 Bill of Sentiments was signed in Seneca Falls, New York, 1848. And the person who was highly in charge of this

00:31:57.000 - 00:32:06.000

was Elizabeth Cady Stanton. And so in New York State, we have all these rather remarkable women who were in the women's movement,

00:32:06.000 - 00:32:21.000

who wanted the right to vote. And we also had in our history the Seneca Nation of Indians. And the Seneca Indian women

00:32:21.000 - 00:32:33.000

had all kinds of rights that the white American woman did not have. And there are books today now that explain that. But this was the--

00:32:33.000 - 00:32:47.000

It was a fermenting of ideas, of freedom, of why should half the population be denied the right to vote. And somehow in that course,

00:32:47.000 - 00:33:01.000

I realized the need to work for this. And I think I've done that for the rest of my life. Let me go back to Eleanor Roosevelt and ask you what were the qualities about her

00:33:01.000 - 00:33:14.000

that made you admire her? Honesty, directness, ability to stand criticism, friendliness.

00:33:14.000 - 00:33:24.000

She would always remember your name. Or at least that she'd met you with the thousands of people she'd met. Through the years, I met her many times.

00:33:24.000 - 00:33:35.000

She's on my committee in Poughkeepsie, Dutchess County, when she was president's wife. Oh yeah, she's a president. During your time at Cornell,

00:33:35.000 - 00:33:44.000

during the summer, did you go to school? No, we went to Star Lake Inn. And all the kids would go up-- hotel students would go up there.

00:33:44.000 - 00:34:00.000

And that's when I suddenly became interested in boys and went out on dates and so forth. What was your-- My job was advanced to assistant head waitress.

00:34:00.000 - 00:34:17.000

It was a Jewish resort. And this is 1930, perhaps '36, '37, '38 was the years I was there. And we had very famous writers and columnists

00:34:17.000 - 00:34:27.000

from New York papers who were there. Not much was spoken about the situation in Europe, but there was an undercurrent there. And it was a German kitchen.

00:34:27.000 - 00:34:35.000

The kitchen was completely German. Interesting. And it was kind of a-- Star Lake Inn, it was on one of the lakes in the Adirondacks.

00:34:35.000 - 00:34:42.000

Resort. It was a resort. And we had a line that said, it was wooden, if Star Lake Inn should catch on fire,

00:34:42.000 - 00:35:00.000

do not walk, do not run, but fly to the nearest exit. Because it would probably go up in smoke. What was your graduation like from Cornell? Graduation, '39, was your class.

00:35:00.000 - 00:35:10.000

We were in the big Barton Hall, which I think is two acres. Cornell is a land-grant college. And then we went over to the college. And I think it was a completion.

00:35:10.000 - 00:35:20.000

I think I look at my life as chapters. They're distinct chapters. They just stop. They begin and they stop.

00:35:20.000 - 00:35:29.000

After you graduated from Cornell, what did you do? I had a very fine job. It was at a time when jobs still were-- this is '39--

00:35:29.000 - 00:35:44.000

jobs were still spare. And I was asked to be an instructor at the College of Economics of the household. And Miss Cushman was my PhD boss.

00:35:44.000 - 00:35:56.000

She's a little lady, about 5 foot 11 and 1/2. And I worked for her. And that first summer, I was like going into a dungeon because her office, the floor was just below gray.

00:35:56.000 - 00:36:03.000

There was a window. But it was-- and I thought, oh, I can't do this. I simply can't live this. I can't work this way.

00:36:03.000 - 00:36:16.000

So I did that for six months. And then Miss-- oh, these names are wonderful, aren't they? Ruby Green Smith, who was the head of the extension service, Cornell Extension Service, asked me

00:36:16.000 - 00:36:27.000

if I wanted to be in the extension. And would I take over for a woman who was leaving, Beatrice Faye, who was leaving for sabbatical for six-- you know, a term.

00:36:27.000 - 00:36:33.000

And I said yes. And so that was Cortland County. And you'll find that in my list. And so I went up there.

00:36:33.000 - 00:36:44.000

And she had a program already established, working with the home bureaus. And I just followed in her footsteps on that. Where did-- you didn't live in the dorm anymore.

00:36:44.000 - 00:36:49.000

Where did you-- No, I-- well, it's interesting. You know, you find your way. I lived in a home.

00:36:49.000 - 00:36:59.000

And a woman, she was from Mount Holyoke. And she was a truant officer. And for select ladies, she would rent a room for you. And then I would go weekends back to Cornell,

00:36:59.000 - 00:37:08.000

where I lived with my friend, classmate June Thorne. We had an apartment together. And then occasionally, did you get to go home? And how was your mom?

00:37:08.000 - 00:37:14.000

Oh, yes. My mom was fine. And they brought-- well, when I was just a freshman-- in fact, let's turn the clock back--

00:37:14.000 - 00:37:26.000

they would bring little Marguerite, Phyllis Marguerite and Ruth, who was five years old, this baby, to visit me at Cornell. Dad kept his-- dad was-- he loved his family.

00:37:26.000 - 00:37:40.000

He just adored-- in fact, he was-- he was a very powerful father. And when did you really become interested in flying? Not until after I had worked for--

00:37:40.000 - 00:37:52.000

until 19-- the war started. Then I was-- I went to all these counties. I had to organize the work, the extension work, in Seneca, Yates, and Schuyler County.

00:37:52.000 - 00:38:00.000

And then I was sent to Dutchess and Columbia Counties, which is where-- home of Mrs. Roosevelt and Mrs. Morgenthau. And when you're down there at Nogales,

00:38:00.000 - 00:38:14.000

you saw-- he was the secretary or treasurer of the-- so that-- I don't-- I might not cancel that one out. Well, let me ask you, where you were and what do you remember about Pearl Harbor?

00:38:14.000 - 00:38:24.000

I can tell you exactly where I was. I was in a restaurant. Oh, I was in-- I was in my-- June Thorne's home in Syracuse. We just had dinner.

00:38:24.000 - 00:38:38.000

And she had-- had married a fellow of-- he was in the Glee Club, tenor. And he also had been an ROTC as a-- and he'd been graduated as a first--

00:38:38.000 - 00:38:51.000

you know, a second lieutenant. And we both looked at each other. And that meant that he was going to go in service. Let me go back to Cornell and ask you

00:38:51.000 - 00:39:07.000

if while you were at Cornell, if you did anything with your music ability or with your drama while you were in school. I don't remember right now.

00:39:07.000 - 00:39:17.000

I don't think so. I was in the skiing club and I did athletic things. I did archery. I was on the swimming team, something like that.

00:39:19.000 - 00:39:44.000

And tell me about when you first became interested in flying. We're going to jump to-- oh, no, 1940, you're right. I volunteered for a fatigue study and-- at the college. And this man, his name was Dr. Richard Parmenter,

00:39:44.000 - 00:40:01.000

had done all the instrumentation for this. We were wired up for heart rate and so forth and so on. And he came in one day and he said, "Dawn, I've been put in charge of flight research for Cornell."

00:40:01.000 - 00:40:14.000

And he said, "We have a lot of data on you "and I know you'd make a good subject. "Would you like to join the civilian pilot training course?" I said, "Dr. Dick, I've never been up."

00:40:14.000 - 00:40:27.000

So he took me up on a glorious, golden October day in a yellow Cub. And I just-- never the same. And what year was that? It was 1939.

00:40:27.000 - 00:40:32.000

Okay. She needs to change film. Okay. Okay.

00:40:32.000 - 00:40:42.000

Oh, man. Moving right along. Absolutely. [Cutting sounds]

00:40:42.000 - 00:40:54.000

World War II. They were volunteers. They didn't-- they paid their own way. State War Council, I wanted to buy.

00:40:54.000 - 00:41:14.000

Okay, and finally, why did you agree to do this? Why do I agree to do this? I guess it goes back to my thought about women and encouraging them to try, to go for it, to have a dream,

00:41:14.000 - 00:41:28.000

but to work hard at making that dream come true. And it's possible for any person, especially women, to realize that they can contribute something for themselves as well as for what they want to do.

00:41:28.000 - 00:41:40.000

I think it's important. But you didn't answer the question. No, I did, I promised you, dear. I don't know, as I--

00:41:40.000 - 00:41:59.000

I think it was-- To do this interview with Wings Across America, and as I see the work of Nancy Parrish and her mother, Dene Parrish, I realize that they are reaching young Americans

00:41:59.000 - 00:42:14.000

and older Americans by a medium that is brand new, really, in this country. It's old, but it's new to a lot of us, the Internet and the website. And it's a form of communication

00:42:14.000 - 00:42:34.000

that is probably going to be the way kids are going to get information in the future. I know my kids right now are not interested in reading all my material that I have all around, but they will look at a website and absorb information that way.

00:42:34.000 - 00:42:50.000

And so I felt that I could contribute something of my experience to this and wish the girls well, the Parrish girls well, in their undertaking, which I think is for history and the future, which will be very rewarding.

00:42:50.000 - 00:43:03.000

Good answer. I don't know if you want a letter, but I've got one right here. Well, Nancy, I can make a digital copy of it if that's okay. Yeah, well, I'll do it.

00:43:03.000 - 00:43:09.000

Well, anyway, where did I get on Dr. Parmeter? I think I started on him. The fatigue study? Yeah.

00:43:09.000 - 00:43:26.000

And he's going to conduct an experiment. He was to-- Dr. Parmeter was to conduct a study on what makes a good pilot and what instruments can he develop to test these factors

00:43:26.000 - 00:43:42.000

in the boy who wants to fly. And he thinks that I'm such a wonderful specimen of womanhood, in excellent physical condition, with normal, healthy reactions. And when he found out that the government allowed five women from Cornell

00:43:42.000 - 00:43:59.000

in a selection of 50 people altogether, well, he thought of me as a guinea pig number one. So he took me up in the yellow coat. How long had the CPT program been in effect before you joined it?

00:43:59.000 - 00:44:20.000

This, I believe, in my research, this is the first-- it started in the summer of '39 and started on college campuses. And it's a wonderful--I have quite a few references on this at home in my files. This was October 16th, and they used the land-grant colleges first, I think.

00:44:20.000 - 00:44:50.000

What they did is used the local field and the local operator owned the planes. The college used the facilities and the faculty to teach the ground school. And it was a very, very reasonable program to the government. I paid $6 for a physical and $34 for insurance, and I learned to fly.

00:44:50.000 - 00:45:08.000

Do you know why they were beginning to teach young men to fly? Of course. Roosevelt knew that the war clouds were coming, and he knew that you can't have a pilot overnight. It takes six months to a year or more to have a trained pilot.

00:45:08.000 - 00:45:29.000

And we had very few pilots, very few airplanes. Tell me about the first airplane you went up in. What kind was it? It was a J-3 Piper Cub, and it was yellow. And when the wheels left the earth, I was transported into another world.

00:45:29.000 - 00:45:49.000

And everything was clean and beautiful. It was sparkling. There was no debris or ugliness. And the lake, Cayuga Lake, stretched out 40 miles north as far as the horizon, and the horizon kept going farther and farther.

00:45:49.000 - 00:46:04.000

I was absolutely thrilled. Who was your first instructor? I can't tell you his name, but Herb Peters, the owner and operator of the airport, soloed me.

00:46:04.000 - 00:46:18.000

And he was a huge man. You know, you sat in the second seat in the Cub, and he was in the front seat. And when he got out, there was this great big airplane. And then we were on skis. It was winter.

00:46:18.000 - 00:46:32.000

And he said, "Take her around." And I did, and I was so happy I was squealing with joy. What did your mom and dad think about your flying? Mother thought it was absolutely fantastic.

00:46:32.000 - 00:46:47.000

Dad thought, "Go for it, girl." Did any of your siblings learn to fly? Oh, my brother was absolutely devastated, Richard, my brother Dick. He always told me when he was a little kid he would make model airplanes.

00:46:47.000 - 00:47:09.000

And he was determined to be a pilot. And when he went through to see if he could become one, his eyes were bad, so he said, "Let them take me." How did Pearl Harbor, the war, affect your family?

00:47:09.000 - 00:47:22.000

Well, my brothers were the class of '43 and '44 at Cornell, and of course they were the classes that joined up. And Frank became a Marine, the first lieutenant in the Marines, and Dick became a first lieutenant in the ordnance in the Army.

00:47:22.000 - 00:47:33.000

One went to the Pacific Theater, the Marine, and the Army went to the European Theater. So Dad and Mother had three in service, and I think it was a cause for concern for my father.

00:47:33.000 - 00:47:51.000

And I think you think about it today, and of course it would be. How do you think that the war itself affected America? How did things change? Well, we weren't insular anymore.

00:47:51.000 - 00:48:06.000

We weren't little tiny towns and little tiny cities. And we were all mixed up. The whole United States became people mixed up. You went to Ohio, you went to Mississippi, you went to Mexico,

00:48:06.000 - 00:48:16.000

and you met new people. And you didn't just have the girl next door or the boy next door to choose a husband or a wife. You had this utter change.

00:48:16.000 - 00:48:41.000

That was one thing. The enemy was so ugly. And the restrictions on personal freedom were so vast that every red-blooded American, I think, wanted to help,

00:48:41.000 - 00:48:52.000

wipe this scourge out. When you were taking the CPT course, did you also take ground school courses? Oh, yeah.

00:48:52.000 - 00:48:57.000

Oh, ground school. Now we have a choice. Interestingly enough. And here I am working for Ms. Cushman.

00:48:57.000 - 00:49:10.000

I told you about my little PhD. And she said, "Dawn, you can't learn to fly. "You have to be here between 8 and 5 every day." First, Dr. Parmeter came back and said,

00:49:10.000 - 00:49:23.000

"Dawn, I'm sorry to tell you, "but Dean Barnard doesn't want any women in the program." And I told him there should be one woman for every nine men. And so he went to Washington himself to find out.

00:49:23.000 - 00:49:34.000

He went to bat for me. Can you imagine? Found out that sure enough, one woman, nine men, ten people. And so those two hurdles that I--

00:49:34.000 - 00:49:44.000

And then the hurdle became ground school, and ground school was at 4 o'clock. And here I had to work until 5. So we ended up-- I became the weather ship.

00:49:44.000 - 00:49:56.000

And as soon as it was light of day, I'd take off for my 15, 20 minutes or 30 minutes. And then I had my own car, so I could go down the hill-- Ithaca's on a very steep hill--

00:49:56.000 - 00:50:09.000

and go down the hill and fly and then come back, and the chimes would be appealing. And I'd never wear chains, 'cause it was icy and snowy that winter. And the boys would-- if I got a little off the road,

00:50:09.000 - 00:50:19.000

the many boys who were walking along would just push the car and they'd get back to school. So that was fun. And ground school I had to do on my own.

00:50:19.000 - 00:50:31.000

And I felt that was quite a lack, because I knew how to pass tests, but that didn't mean I understood all the fine points. What did you take in ground school?

00:50:31.000 - 00:50:47.000

Oh, you took... engines, navigation, weather. Did you get Morse code there? I don't think we had Morse code.

00:50:47.000 - 00:51:02.000

I'd have to look in one of my letters to have some more. But we had to know the parts of an airplane and why an airplane flies. You had to know about...

00:51:02.000 - 00:51:19.000

I just passed the course. Are you aware of how that regulation came about, that they would admit one girl to each class? I don't know, but I think they were--

00:51:19.000 - 00:51:31.000

Don't forget that we had Amelia Earhart, we had Jackie Cochran, we had Bessie Coleman, we had all kinds of women who were flying at that time. This is 1939.

00:51:31.000 - 00:51:43.000

And I think--and they had the 99s. Where the influence came, that's a good question. It could well have been Eleanor Roosevelt. But I have not--no, for sure.

00:51:43.000 - 00:51:54.000

How long did that CPT course last for you? Well, it lasted... A semester? You had to have 40 hours.

00:51:54.000 - 00:52:05.000

It seems to me I started to fly November, and of course then the weather is bad, and I had my license in May of 1940. 128-7840 is my license number.

00:52:05.000 - 00:52:20.000

(laughter) Not every WASP had to have a pilot's license. She had to have a certain number of hours later in the program. At our time, we had to have 35 hours.

00:52:20.000 - 00:52:36.000

And I have here someplace, if you wanted me to take a break, I have the telegram from Ethel Sheehy, who spoke out the requirements. Nancy will digital record that.

00:52:36.000 - 00:52:46.000

When you finished the CPT course, then how did you get flying time? That was difficult because of my jobs and being transferred around the state.

00:52:46.000 - 00:53:04.000

And as I looked at my time, I only had about-- I had 40 hours and 20 minutes, I guess, after the CPT program. And then my dad asked me if I'd go that summer

00:53:04.000 - 00:53:18.000

around the United States as a spare driver to set up his distributorships for his business. And I did that. We traveled 20,000 miles in 6 weeks

00:53:18.000 - 00:53:32.000

from Rochester to the Gulf to California to Seattle and home, and stopped at Colorado Springs. And at Colorado Springs, he asked me to--

00:53:32.000 - 00:53:44.000

since he'd driven it up in a motorcycle, he said, "It's your turn in the car." And we had a 12-cylinder Lincoln Zephyr. And we were supposed to get out before light of day.

00:53:44.000 - 00:53:55.000

Instead of that, we made a late departure. And I stalled three times going up the mountain on the dirt road. But the sun was coming right at your eyes.

00:53:55.000 - 00:54:13.000

And I was almost in tears, and he said, "But at least you tried and made it." During the time, during CPT, and you were flying, did anything unusual happen on any of your flights?

00:54:13.000 - 00:54:25.000

Well, I think because I was the weather ship, we often had much stronger winds than were allowable. And when we did S-turns along the road, we'd sort of wipe out, and the instructor would say,

00:54:25.000 - 00:54:38.000

"Oh, no more flying today." And so I had that advantage of having really strong weather. We did emergency landings on the inlet and on the frozen lake.

00:54:38.000 - 00:54:47.000

I soloed on skis. Oh, I know my first solo. That was a good story. So we went over to the Elmira Airport,

00:54:47.000 - 00:54:56.000

which is a grass strip. And in New York State, it's all hills and valleys, and I couldn't find the airport, simply couldn't find the airport.

00:54:56.000 - 00:55:08.000

So finally I located it. Every time I'd turn, you know, the compass would roll. And came in and did put on the carb heat, but somehow or other I'm on the downwind,

00:55:08.000 - 00:55:16.000

and the engine stopped. So I just made a dead stick landing out there in this grass field waiting, "What do I do now?"

00:55:16.000 - 00:55:25.000

Finally a little guy came out, and he says, "Well, what's the trouble, lady?" He was shocked to see me. "Girl," I guess he called me.

00:55:25.000 - 00:55:33.000

"What's the trouble, girl?" And I said, "Well, she won't start." "Well," he said, "I'll give you a turn." So we started the engine okay.

00:55:33.000 - 00:55:44.000

It sounded all right. And so I went on my way to Cortland, New York, and did not--just made a--just slipped by. Didn't really make a landing, and came back to Ithaca.

00:55:44.000 - 00:55:54.000

The plane was fine. Still could have been more carb heat or something, but that was my first solo. And then after the CPT,

00:55:54.000 - 00:56:07.000

I had asked you about how did you keep up your flying. Well, I didn't very much. And so when I had this telegram from Mrs. Sheehy to meet her at the Pennsylvania Hotel in New York City

00:56:07.000 - 00:56:18.000

on the 3rd, 4th, 5th of March, which came that Monday, I guess, when you're supposed to go the Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday to meet her,

00:56:18.000 - 00:56:37.000

I quickly went home and got 4 hours and... whatever here, 4 hours and 20 minutes of dual and solo at Rochester Airport, 'cause you couldn't fly near the coast, as you remember.

00:56:37.000 - 00:56:47.000

So that was my refresher. And all those since 1940. This is '43. So in a sense, I said to myself,

00:56:47.000 - 00:56:56.000

"Dawn, you're going to be flying. You better get going." So I had exactly 50 hours and-- what did I write down?

00:56:56.000 - 00:57:06.000

50 hours and 32 minutes. 51 hours and 32 minutes. And so I made the 50 hours for Jackie. When did you first hear about the WASP training program?

00:57:06.000 - 00:57:15.000

Well, that's interesting. I had had a telegram from Jack-- not a telegram, but a handwritten invitation in the mail from Miss Jacqueline Cochran,

00:57:15.000 - 00:57:27.000

"Request the pleasure of your company for cocktails Thursday, the 1st of May, 1941. 530 to 730, please respond. 435 East 52nd Street, New York City, her home."

00:57:27.000 - 00:57:37.000

And so I was on her list of someone who had had a private pilot's license as of May of 1940. And so I kept following along,

00:57:37.000 - 00:57:49.000

and then I received this telegram from-- I must have written somehow. There was a magazine article about her. It was on--there was some publicity about her

00:57:49.000 - 00:57:58.000

because of the ATA pilots. And see, I was in the New York market, so I think that's probably what I heard. And then I received this telegram from Ethel Sheehy

00:57:58.000 - 00:58:09.000

to meet at the Pennsylvania Hotel, and then that's when they reduced the hours to 50 hours and I still was 21, I believe. What are your remembrances of what you knew

00:58:09.000 - 00:58:20.000

about Jacqueline Cochran at that time? I know very little about her. Very little about her. Except that she was a racing pilot.

00:58:20.000 - 00:58:31.000

And what was your understanding when you-- I knew she had won the Bendix. Okay. Your understanding when you got the telegram from Miss Sheehy.

00:58:31.000 - 00:58:42.000

Well, I was thrilled because had I not received a word from the WASP or from Jacqueline Cochran, I would have been a wave. My roommate became a wave.

00:58:42.000 - 00:58:50.000

So I had a choice there. I knew I was going to be in the service. My preference was that. Did you attend this thing?

00:58:50.000 - 00:59:00.000

No, I wasn't able to. Isn't that too bad? Too bad, yeah. Too bad. In '41, you see, I wasn't even down in Poughkeepsie yet.

00:59:00.000 - 00:59:09.000

I was still upstate. When you-- Where did you go to be interviewed by Miss Sheehy? In the Pennsylvania Hotel in New York City.

00:59:09.000 - 00:59:19.000

Okay. And then what did you have to do next? I had to-- She said, "Would you like to join the March class?" I said, "When is that?"

00:59:19.000 - 00:59:33.000

"The 23rd, 24th of March. This is the 3rd." And I had to resign my job and tend to my affairs. And I thought, maybe get some more flying time. And take a physical at Rome, New York.

00:59:33.000 - 00:59:43.000

Rome Air Force Base. Army Air Force Base. Was that an experience? It wasn't anything difficult. Because, see, I'd been the skinny pig,

00:59:43.000 - 00:59:54.000

so I had been used to, you know, taking down your shirt and putting on the hose, and they had to put the heart monitors on and so forth. So I don't think it was anything shocking to me, you know.

00:59:54.000 - 01:00:03.000

What did Miss Sheehy tell you to expect from this program? Nothing. What was it going to be? Nothing, that I remember.

01:00:03.000 - 01:00:15.000

We were going to learn to fly the Army way, and we'd be flying Army military planes, and we'd have--with all women. What did she tell you the purpose of having--

01:00:15.000 - 01:00:27.000

The purpose was Jackie Clawton's purpose, to release men for our combat--men pilots. So you did your physical, and then how did you get from New York to Sweetwater?

01:00:27.000 - 01:00:39.000

I took a plane. I flew American Airlines. I have a postcard in my scrapbook. And in Dallas, I had to transfer to--

01:00:39.000 - 01:00:48.000

And I had some man-- We arrived late at night, and I remember he took me to the bus station, and I think I came by bus to Sweetwater. Did you know--

01:00:48.000 - 01:01:00.000

I was kind of late arriving, so I was--my "V"s were all As and Bs at the end of the alphabet. So I was with Flight A, rather than--

01:01:00.000 - 01:01:09.000

and I'm a Flight B, so. Did you know any other girls? No, not at all. When you arrived at Sweetwater,

01:01:09.000 - 01:01:19.000

what are your remembrances of how you got here? Well, my first remembrance was that my luggage didn't come with me. And all I had was a little cosmetic case, fortunately,

01:01:19.000 - 01:01:32.000

and I borrowed--one of my classmates loaned me her-- she had purple socks, she loaned me purple socks and sneakers, and it took me days before I could get off base to buy a pair of sneaks.

01:01:32.000 - 01:01:44.000

And my suitcase eventually came back from Mexico. [laughter] Describe for us a venture feel. Well, first of all, dusty.

01:01:44.000 - 01:01:54.000

Well, no, that's not true. First of all, had the sky. That huge dome of the sky. And the gorgeous 360-degree view.

01:01:54.000 - 01:02:05.000

It was breathtaking. And then, of course, it was dusty. And 6 girls to a bay, and 12 girls to 2 toilets.

01:02:05.000 - 01:02:16.000

2 heads. Tell me about your bay mates. Oh, we had--my bay mates are fun. They were--2 were married.

01:02:16.000 - 01:02:32.000

One husband was missing in action in Europe. One was in the Ferry Command writing Hazel Wolfe these tender, endearing letters, missing her terribly and putting her right on the spot.

01:02:32.000 - 01:02:52.000

One girl, dressed and undressed under her bathrobe-- I remember that. Sort of unusual. And because they were in Flight A and I was Flight B,

01:02:52.000 - 01:03:04.000

we only knew each other studying, shall we say. Because our time schedules were so different. Go through a typical day of training. Oh, I can't do that.

01:03:04.000 - 01:03:12.000

I can't do that. The waiting--you mean the waiting? No. The marching. The marching I loved. I loved marching.

01:03:12.000 - 01:03:28.000

I loved the physical training. I loved--the waiting for your instructor was... endless. I think perhaps I might have had a little difficulty at first

01:03:28.000 - 01:03:43.000

in becoming disciplined to the schedule because I was used to being pretty free-souled. I kept my mouth shut and I learned as much as I possibly could

01:03:43.000 - 01:03:58.000

because I knew I was behind in ground school. So I really hit the books and as I recall I didn't have any difficulty. I remember that one thing that was interesting,

01:03:58.000 - 01:04:11.000

they took you back to Math I where 2 and 2 is 4. The Army never let you think that you knew something unless they knew you knew something. What did you take in ground school?

01:04:11.000 - 01:04:22.000

Whatever you took. What courses? The camera doesn't--the person you're talking to doesn't know what you took. Oh, I haven't refreshed my mind on that.

01:04:22.000 - 01:04:31.000

But everything to do with aviation, weather, navigation. But there you had Morse code also. We did--one thing differently that we had that perhaps the later classes didn't is

01:04:31.000 - 01:04:48.000

we did fly the PT-19A for primary, the BT-13 and 15 for basic, and for the Beds we flew the AT-6 and the UC-78, the twin-engine bamboo bomber they called it,

01:04:48.000 - 01:04:58.000

or it was also called the AT-17. And I loved the twin-engine flying. I thought that was just great. And I'm sure--I have no really understanding

01:04:58.000 - 01:05:14.000

or reason to know why I was chosen for B-17s. I know we had to be all over 5'6", and I was 5'8", and have a good record in twin-engine.

01:05:14.000 - 01:05:28.000

While you were at Avenger, did anything unusual happen during your flying there, during your training? I had a U-ride in my freshman--in my primary.

01:05:28.000 - 01:05:41.000

It was late in the day, and I had a red-haired Army-- this is my Army check ride-- and the wind had changed from-- it was always south, as we all know,

01:05:41.000 - 01:05:54.000

and this time it was north. And the instructor had always taken me out over some hills to do our forced landings. And so I was used to that,

01:05:54.000 - 01:06:07.000

and as I said, I hadn't had too much experience now. My flying time was very limited. So I'm looking around, he cut the engine, land the plane, and I chose a field,

01:06:07.000 - 01:06:18.000

and I sort of thought, "Hmm, it looks like it's freshly plowed, and I'll take that field that's just been cut." So I chose that, and he gave me a pink slip for changing my mind.

01:06:18.000 - 01:06:29.000

And so the next day I had a ride with my instructor, and then I had a ride with Miss Fillion, and I passed everything. But what a warning it was, and what a scare,

01:06:29.000 - 01:06:43.000

because the idea of washing out, as we knew, was horrifying. I mean, my one roommate had washed out, and when we came home we'd said goodbye in the morning and had breakfast, and came back and her bed mattress

01:06:43.000 - 01:06:59.000

was rolled up, and never a goodbye. So that was dramatic. So I plugged, I really worked hard, and I can't tell you how wonderful it is

01:06:59.000 - 01:07:10.000

to be in a program where all you do is fly. For five and a half months we did nothing but fly, learn about airplanes, talk about airplanes, we were surrounded by airplanes,

01:07:10.000 - 01:07:37.000

and it was the most wonderful learning experience I've ever had. There's another very sad event that happened to me in Advanced, and it happened in the AT-17. A girl I'd flown with, Peggy Seip, and Cyberson,

01:07:37.000 - 01:07:57.000

were killed with their instructor in a CAVU day, Clear Ceiling and Visibility Unlimited day, for no reason that we could think of. And Peggy had had a garden against the wall of her barracks,

01:07:57.000 - 01:08:21.000

and she grew some lovely flowers, and they were gone. And there were the flowers on the wall of the barracks. And it wasn't until 1996, I guess we started this in 1991, but I knew I had to do something in her memory,

01:08:21.000 - 01:08:39.000

so that's one of the reasons I started the In Memoriam app, our 38 American women pilots who gave their lives in performance of duty with the United States Army Air Forces. So that was close.

01:08:39.000 - 01:09:00.000

As far as I was concerned, accidents just happened, you know. You were accepted to that. And it was--for me, I was not afraid, of course, but to think this could happen to your dear friend

01:09:00.000 - 01:09:17.000

was very meaningful. While you were in training, did you have any time off? Yes, and my sister brought my car down, so I had a car, and we went to Sweetwater and went swimming

01:09:17.000 - 01:09:33.000

and did the thing with the--the boys came over from different-- we had boys on field when we were there, 43-5. They were still a squadron of men, pilots. And to make dates, you'd stand on the head

01:09:33.000 - 01:09:45.000

and look through a little tiny opening above, and they would do the same, and you'd say, "Sit." So when we finally got off field, we could have a date. Why do you think they took the men off the field?

01:09:45.000 - 01:09:57.000

Well, because more women were coming, and they needed the space, I think, is one reason. And Jackie Cocker didn't want us to be diverted in any way from our task. She was very precise, Jackie Cocker, about our deportment.

01:09:57.000 - 01:10:11.000

She knew the program was experimental. She never was ever photographed with a drink or a cigarette. She was always very aware of her behavior before cameras and interviews,

01:10:11.000 - 01:10:23.000

and she set a good example. One of the reasons we don't have pockets in our uniform, slack pockets, are because she didn't like to see women with their hands in their pockets. And she had a sense of style.

01:10:23.000 - 01:10:38.000

She had--having her own beauty company, she was very much aware of appearance. And that's why our uniforms are still so good-looking. Our hats are made by Knox.

01:10:38.000 - 01:10:53.000

They're the finest leather you could find. In wartime. During the time you were in training, what were your uniforms like? Well, my dear, we had the zoot suits, the huge zoot suits.

01:10:53.000 - 01:11:05.000

We wore our own clothes off base. And then finally, for the graduation of '43-2, which I believe was in May, we had the tan slacks, white shirts,

01:11:05.000 - 01:11:25.000

and overseas tan khaki caps. What do you feel that training gave you? Oh, a tremendous sense of discipline. And an observation of the fact

01:11:25.000 - 01:11:37.000

that you're responsible for this aircraft. Actually, the aircraft were almost as important, or more important, than the pilot. Pilots could be--what is the word?

01:11:37.000 - 01:11:49.000

Dispensable. Not dispensable. There's another word. But the plane was very important, because many people could fly it. How do you feel the WASP training was different

01:11:49.000 - 01:12:06.000

from the male pilot cadets? I don't think we had as much acrobatic or formation flying. But I think otherwise it was pretty good. And pretty much the same?

01:12:06.000 - 01:12:18.000

Oh, yes. Absolutely. Before you graduated, and graduation was coming, were you given a choice of assignments? I think we were asked where we'd like to be, yes.

01:12:18.000 - 01:12:30.000

And I think I chose Wilmington, Delaware, second fearing group, because it was close to home. Didn't think of weather. Did not think of weather, which is interesting.

01:12:30.000 - 01:12:40.000

I can go on with that. I want you to tell me about your graduation. The graduation was very special. Very, very special. We'd been out the night before. We'd partied.

01:12:40.000 - 01:12:52.000

Even our instructors came. We had the FIFA-Nella. It was a second floor of an old building in Sweetwater that we could use as a gathering place,

01:12:52.000 - 01:13:06.000

instead of the Blue Bonnet. And I think I was on that committee to work on that. So we had a party place, which was our own, which was fun. And we could have music and Victrola and so forth.

01:13:06.000 - 01:13:23.000

And so the next day, our bay had been taken over by the new class. So I was sent to Winnie Woods Bay. She's 43, 7, which was interesting. And the next day, dawned bright and clear,

01:13:23.000 - 01:13:39.000

and I walked up in line to receive my wings. And Jackie Cochran was in a flowery dress and a flowery hat. And she shook hands and handed me my wings with her left hand to my left hand.

01:13:39.000 - 01:13:53.000

And I said to myself, "I did it." [laughter] Feet were off the ground, of course. Were you aware of what other WASPs who had already graduated,

01:13:53.000 - 01:14:04.000

what they were doing? Very little. We're the fifth class. And when 43 came in, of course, they looked like stars to us.

01:14:04.000 - 01:14:16.000

They were just remarkable people. Right. After graduation--or did you have anyone come for graduation? No, I didn't have anyone.

01:14:16.000 - 01:14:34.000

After graduation, did you get some time off? Yes, yes, and I drove the car up to Purdue. Dropped off some WASPs in Dallas and then drove up to Purdue where my brother was in training

01:14:34.000 - 01:14:46.000

and then drove home--that's quite a ways--to Rochester, New York. Okay. Then how did you get from Rochester to Romulus? Did you drive the car?

01:14:46.000 - 01:14:57.000

No, I went to Newcastle. I drove the car. I had two weeks there, checked out in a PT-19A. The skies were gray all the time,

01:14:57.000 - 01:15:10.000

and all of a sudden received orders to proceed at once to Lockburn Army Air Base. I had no idea what was going to happen. Someone said, "B-17s." I said, "Oh, how could we?"

01:15:10.000 - 01:15:26.000

Drove across the Appalachians and arrived, and sure enough there were over 180 B-17s on the field. We were sent to the squadron, 1174th Squadron. Major Freddie--

01:15:26.000 - 01:15:35.000

I have it here. Come to me in a minute. He was our CO. My instructor was Logue Mitchell,

01:15:35.000 - 01:15:55.000

who had been with the Canadian Air Force. And he--according to Freddie Wilson, his name, was later--he kept in touch with our instructors for years and years and years. They came to the reunion at Cleveland in '82 when I became president.

01:15:55.000 - 01:16:13.000

All the boys came. Can you imagine? So we--he said to us later, he was determined to get us through. So out of 17 who were sent, 13 of us graduated.

01:16:13.000 - 01:16:29.000

Were all the 17 from your class? No, from 436, too. Some were from 436. Where did you live when you were at Lockburn? At Lockburn, we lived in the nurses' quarters.

01:16:29.000 - 01:16:47.000

We had rooms that were two-by-fours with a frame in the back. We each had our own room, by the way, bathroom down the hall. We had one phone on the line. Phoning, as you remember, is very difficult in those days.

01:16:47.000 - 01:17:01.000

You had to almost have an appointment to receive a phone call. When you were training on the B-17, were there also male pilots training? Yes, we were in a squadron. Our squadron leader, pardon me, was a full colonel.

01:17:01.000 - 01:17:12.000

The men were back from combat. They had all their ribbons. They were majors. Colonels--well, one colonel. We had, I guess, a couple of lieutenant colonels.

01:17:12.000 - 01:17:23.000

We had majors. We had captains. They'd been, too. They'd been on the Ploesti raid. They'd been--they'd been in North Africa. One had been the pilot for General Clark.

01:17:23.000 - 01:17:35.000

I mean, they had dumped--one of them had dumped in the channel. One had walked out of France. We had war stories firsthand. And we marched right around.

01:17:35.000 - 01:17:54.000

We had to march, of course, from the mess hall to the squadron for flying or to the link, ground school, and so forth. We had very extensive ground school--130 hours in the air, and that included instrument flying, raiding.

01:17:54.000 - 01:18:07.000

And it's winter. In that winter of '43, '44, it was just dreadful. And according to my instructor, who later wrote a-- Logue Mitchell, who later wrote a recommendation for the WASP when we were trying to be militarized,

01:18:07.000 - 01:18:22.000

he said that the skies were full of the smoke from the coal-burning friars of Columbus, Ohio, and so they were always sooty and gray. Do you have any idea why those men were being retrained?

01:18:22.000 - 01:18:33.000

Yes, because they needed R&R. It was a way--and also, I think at this time, that they were sent over so quickly that they didn't have all the fine points of the engines and the procedure,

01:18:33.000 - 01:18:52.000

but I really think it was R&R. And why do you think those four girls marched out of that training? I think in any program, some airplanes are-- for men as well as women--are harder to handle, that's all.

01:18:52.000 - 01:19:08.000

I think they're pursuit people, they're bomber people. This plane took an awful lot of physical ability. There was no power assist on it. Unless you knew how to trim, you were in difficulty.

01:19:08.000 - 01:19:20.000

What made you love to fly that particular airplane? Oh, I guess it might go back to the fact that I'm a family person and I loved all the people on board. I loved the fact that the first time I went up,

01:19:20.000 - 01:19:32.000

when number three engine caught on fire and Logue Mitchell was able to just dum-dum-dum, fires out, I thought, boy, this is a safe and wonderful plane, and I don't have to look at the ground where I'm going to land it

01:19:32.000 - 01:19:45.000

for an emergency landing. And I think somehow that relief of always before having to think, what would I do if this engine quits, had been so ingrained in me from primary,

01:19:45.000 - 01:19:57.000

actually from Sweetwater, I mean from when I learned in Ithaca and landed on the ice. This is a wonderful feeling, this is a wonderful airplane. This is for me.

01:19:57.000 - 01:20:08.000

When they would take you up on a training flight, would they take more than one person? Oh, yes, they took the whole group, and it seems to me there were three of us--I can't quite figure that one out--

01:20:08.000 - 01:20:25.000

but at least three of us were up. Julie Ledbetter, Francis Green, and I were always together. Charlotte Mitchell, we had a wonderful group. So how long were you at Loughlin before you were transferred?

01:20:25.000 - 01:20:41.000

Well, probably three months till January of '44, and then I went down to--ordered to go to Buckingham. Army Air Field, as you know, there's a big difference. A field is a temporary sort of an Army unit,

01:20:41.000 - 01:20:52.000

whereas a base is more permanent, and the restrictions and the protocol at a base are a little bit tougher than they are at a field. And this was a gunnery school, and they had thousands of gunners,

01:20:52.000 - 01:21:10.000

and where they'd learn from small arms fire on up to the .50 caliber before they were graduated to flying on a moving platform with a moving target. Our job was to give them that experience. How many of you were sent down to Buckingham?

01:21:10.000 - 01:21:21.000

There were six of us who--seven of us, pardon me-- there were seven of us who--and again, we were in Flight A and Flight B. Okay. I'll change tables. Oh, good, let's stretch.

01:21:21.000 - 01:21:36.000

Do you need to get up, Dawn? I can unplug you, or you can just unplug it. Tell other women pilots. She asked if I would join the March class, and could I be ready,

01:21:36.000 - 01:21:51.000

and I flipped a nickel, heads came up, resigned my job, passed the physical, took four hours of dual and solo. Can you imagine? Do you have another question for me? Did you say you had to go? No. All right. I'm with you.

01:21:51.000 - 01:22:07.000

We'll do it a little bit later, though. We're rolling. Okay. When you were sent to Buckingham, where did you live? I think I went through that, but I lived in the nurses' quarters.

01:22:07.000 - 01:22:22.000

And how many other WASPs out of that class were sent with you? There were 13 of us all together, eventually. And you all went to Buckingham? 17 went to Buckingham, 13 graduated, finished.

01:22:22.000 - 01:22:35.000

And the others asked for a transfer early on in the program, I believe. I don't have those dates. That was at Loughborn that 17 went. Oh, I'm sorry. Okay.

01:22:35.000 - 01:22:50.000

Now we're at Buckingham. Buckingham. Oh, girls. We drove down from-- I picked up my cousin and some WASPs en route, driving down from New York City.

01:22:50.000 - 01:23:06.000

And visited my brother, who was a Marine. And we had gas racing, as you know. And there's a couple letters in here. One letter crept along at 35 miles an hour because we couldn't find a gas station.

01:23:06.000 - 01:23:24.000

And finally, we just all started to pray, you know. There was a gas station, and the gas--we'd give us gas. So we arrived in Florida and got on base, checked in. And there were seven of us all together stationed.

01:23:24.000 - 01:23:39.000

And we were at civilian barracks. Not only were we in civilian barracks, the barracks had several things. One, they had a pot-bellied stove for the cold nights. And it had a little--like a little living room, tiny little thing.

01:23:39.000 - 01:23:56.000

Again, it was a shack that opened two-by-fours and the siding inside. We had two girls lived in a room, and they were--you could talk, you know. The ceilings didn't go up. The four walls didn't go to the ceiling.

01:23:56.000 - 01:24:16.000

The--we had eight of them in this hall. And we were at--ahead of squadron, and we were in flights A and B. So there were three of us wandering around together, Greenie and Julie Ledbetter and myself. And then the other squadron--and we never saw each other.

01:24:16.000 - 01:24:37.000

And we're on this huge field with thousands of gunners. The airplanes on board were the B-17Fs and the B-17Gs. The differences between--is the gun mount on the nose guns on the B-17 is the G model. And the one that's clean is the F model.

01:24:37.000 - 01:24:53.000

In fact, I think there's a picture here of even some old B-17Ds or Cs. We were surrounded by the Everglades. And we even had a crocodile. I mean, an alligator was on the runway one day.

01:24:53.000 - 01:25:11.000

And the thousands and millions of mosquitoes. So each bed had mosquito netting over it. And the job was at night to take your flashlight and be sure before you went in--you curled in--you tucked it all in when you were inside the bed. And you'd be sure there was not a mosquito in there to bother you during the night.

01:25:11.000 - 01:25:26.000

But we loved it. We absolutely loved it. And I have this wonderful letter to Mother about how that we were received there. And if you want me to read that, I can, but another time. But we were curiosities.

01:25:26.000 - 01:25:35.000

To whom did you report? We reported to the director of flying. Muddy Waters was his name. What was your assignment?

01:25:35.000 - 01:25:55.000

And he did not particularly want women pilots on his base. Our job was to fly co-pilot on the B-17s during the aerial missions, aerial gunnery missions. Describe what that aerial gunnery mission consisted of. Well, first of all, you were assigned a B-26, or a stripped AT-23, they were called.

01:25:55.000 - 01:26:17.000

And this was the ship who would reel out the sleeve, the target sleeve. We'd rendezvous over Sanibel Island. There's a lighthouse on Sanibel Island. And then you'd go downrange as far as Marco Island, which is in the Gulf of Mexico, right offshore.

01:26:17.000 - 01:26:39.000

You can see shore, but you're quite a ways out of the Gulf. And the first thing you'd do is the gunners would fire colored bullets, 50 caliber machine gun bullets, at this white sleeve. And the object was, when the sleeve was later dropped, they could see how many reds, blues, greens, and yellows.

01:26:39.000 - 01:26:58.000

And then they were all assigned a color. The second part of the mission was to go to altitude, and we went over 22,000 feet. And at 10,000, the gunners and all of us had to put on oxygen masks. And then you watch and fly this airplane, and we had superchargers on the B-17s,

01:26:58.000 - 01:27:26.000

and watch your instruments and be sure everything's going along well. And then the gunners would learn how the temperature would change and the guns would get cold, and so forth. Then we'd come down and fly across Naples, Florida, where there was a pursuit base of P-40s, P-39s, and they would do--they'd put film in the guns, and then they would--we'd have the passes of the planes,

01:27:26.000 - 01:27:36.000

and it felt like high. This was the exciting part. But it was the first time the gunners--some of them had ever been in an airplane. They were 18 or 19 years old.

01:27:36.000 - 01:27:56.000

It was the first time they'd been firing a gun at an unstable, moving platform at a target that was also moving. So they had to learn all that. They had two missions, and they were shipped to their crews to go overseas. There was a desperate need for gunners.

01:27:56.000 - 01:28:26.000

The fun part of the mission--and I think you put it in as the timing was--perhaps--was to fly Splash, where you again had live ammunition, and the gunners would fire into the water and then try to hit the burst in the water. I tried that. That was fun. And, of course, the shells--there's no insulation in the fuselage, so these shells would ricochet off this metal,

01:28:26.000 - 01:28:47.000

and you'd hear this real rattle, you know. So it wasn't hard to imagine you were in combat. You could fantasize it. And one day, the .50 caliber gun--the top turret--smashed into this gunner's face,

01:28:47.000 - 01:29:02.000

and his nose was hardly attached, and I gave him first aid, and we ran. That was my only real exciting moment. Poor guy. He lived to tell the tale, though. What were your social activities like after you--

01:29:02.000 - 01:29:17.000

Well, our social activities were very exciting, and I have one story to tell you. They were having the Sadie Hawkins dance. Do you know what Sadie Hawkins dance? Well, it's the 29th of February.

01:29:17.000 - 01:29:30.000

Every four years, there's a leap year dance. And, of course, I'd write home to a dear mother to please send me this evening dress or this formal evening dress. Could you imagine? Because now we're living on a base.

01:29:30.000 - 01:29:53.000

This isn't like where it's itinerant. You're sleeping in the same bed every night. And so I was invited to be on that committee, and I walked into the room where there were 12 pilots, and they all stood up when I came in the room, and I said, "Please be seated, gentlemen."

01:29:53.000 - 01:30:13.000

But that's where I fell in love, and I married in May of that year, Lieutenant Lainey Baldwin. Could you tell me what qualities you saw in that lieutenant that attracted you to him? I saw everything I ever wanted, I guess. Where were you married?

01:30:13.000 - 01:30:34.000

I was married in Orlando at the Army Air Force Base, and it's a very beautiful place. And I have an aunt and uncle who live in Winter Park, which is next door. And so I stayed--my mother and dad came down by train, because that was part of-- I must have had pretty definite ideas, like this little granddaughter I was telling you about--

01:30:34.000 - 01:30:57.000

what I wanted, and they came down. And I was married in the chapel on the field next to the runway. And because you know how the Army is, the steeple would be too tall. So they just--because it's very close to the flight line--they just put it down on the ground.

01:30:57.000 - 01:31:13.000

And all my pilot friends came up for that. It's about, what, 98, 100 miles, 120 miles. Was he also a pilot? Yes, he was a B-26 pilot.

01:31:13.000 - 01:31:27.000

Why, Dawn, at that time did you not resign? I had no intent--I had no even--I was committed. I knew I was--and we apparently talked about that. But no, I did not resign.

01:31:27.000 - 01:31:42.000

And I was determined to finish honorably what I had set out to do. So you went back to Buckingham, and he stayed in Orlando? No, he was at Buckingham. Because my aunt and uncle, we arranged to have the wedding.

01:31:42.000 - 01:31:59.000

It was a much more charming town than Fort Myers. Did you have a formal wedding? Actually, it was very difficult to buy clothes. And I wore a street-length dress, had a cute little hat with a veil.

01:31:59.000 - 01:32:13.000

I did not wear a uniform. When we received our uniforms in April, they were the wool uniforms. And of course, Florida in April and May is hot. So we always wore civilian clothes off base.

01:32:13.000 - 01:32:22.000

Did you have some time off then for a honeymoon? I had just a long weekend. I went to the shore. And then you went back to Buckingham.

01:32:22.000 - 01:32:40.000

And this time we found an apartment in town. And during your stay at Buckingham, did you have other assignments other than--? There was a couple of times we could fly to Homestead, Florida, but very little cross-country flying.

01:32:40.000 - 01:32:56.000

What we did instead was to take airplanes, sort of snag rides as one does. And I had many rides in the B-26. And it's only 90 miles across Florida. So you'd just hop in, and then you'd go see Miami.

01:32:56.000 - 01:33:05.000

Or you might go down to Key West and see-- I have a letter where it says that I saw the wake of the Clipper ship landing. [laughs] In Key West.

01:33:05.000 - 01:33:26.000

During the time you were at Buckingham, did you get orders for temporary duty at another--? Yes, I got orders for temporary duty at Orlando for-- We didn't call it Officer Candidate School. And I think you'll have to refresh me on what it's called.

01:33:26.000 - 01:33:47.000

I believe it is called OCS. Well, it was not the name of the--it was a higher grade of training, actually. Can you refer me to that? The Air Force's School of Applied Tactics is the formal name of it.

01:33:47.000 - 01:34:06.000

And apparently it was a higher quality of training than ordinary OCS. And it was called Staff and Special Training Department. And we were there for a little over two weeks and learned how to be an officer and a gentleman. [laughs]

01:34:06.000 - 01:34:25.000

Were there other--? At that time--now this is--what did I say the dates were of that? We learned how to be--it was June. And at that time, we thought we'd be June 16th to the 30th, '44.

01:34:25.000 - 01:34:41.000

So it was in preparation for being militarized. For being militarized. Jackie Cochran had come twice down to visit us. She kept a close tab on her pilots who were having unusual assignments, I think,

01:34:41.000 - 01:34:55.000

and wanted to make sure that everything was smooth. And we'd had some difficulty because we were trained as first pilots and this director of flying wanted us to be co-pilots. And as you know, that left seat is kind of important, the time to have.

01:34:55.000 - 01:35:14.000

And she was able to tell us that because we were considered co-pilots, because we had enlisted men on board the airplane. And for that reason, because we weren't military, we had to have that designation, even though we'd fly as much of the mission as--the boys let us fly as much as we wanted to,

01:35:14.000 - 01:35:30.000

take off land and everything. Which was--so in many ways, we had a great experience. But then she was able to have a letter come through channels that if we flew administrative flights, we were considered first pilots.

01:35:30.000 - 01:35:47.000

Did you fly aircraft other than the B-17 at Buckingham? Yeah, I had a ride one day in the B-24 that had the coffin seat, and I had rides in the AT-11. I had 30 hours about in the B-26 as co-pilot,

01:35:47.000 - 01:36:09.000

and that was exciting, on a regular gunnery mission. We released the sleeve. And then another thing they had--and I've got this written down precisely so that you have it as a fact--is the--there's something called range estimation.

01:36:09.000 - 01:36:29.000

Now, range estimation is when the gunner is standing in front of a 50-caliber machine gun, and you're making passes at him in an oval, and you come down from 500 feet to just above his head, close as you wish, and make another circle.

01:36:29.000 - 01:36:44.000

It's endless, but it's lots of fun. It's called legitimate legalized buzzing. And we did that in an AT-6 and a BT-13. And we wore these marvelous--they were called jungle packs,

01:36:44.000 - 01:37:01.000

and instead of wearing a regular parachute, the pack must have been, oh, 2 inches or so thick. And inside would be a medical kit with sulfa. A fish hook, a knife, so that if we ever abandoned the airplane over the Everglades, we could survive.

01:37:01.000 - 01:37:16.000

First aid kit, that sort of thing. And they were heavy, and of course, the 90-degree weather, that was a go. Did you receive any other training while you were at Buckingham? No more training. It became a regular job.

01:37:16.000 - 01:37:35.000

You'd fly one day mornings, 6 to noon, and the next day you'd fly noon to 6. Where did you go through the pressure chamber? The pressure chamber, the oxygen chamber, was in the aeromedical lab at Wright-Patterson, Ohio, and that was part of our Lockburn training.

01:37:35.000 - 01:37:44.000

Did you have any problems? Actually, my little card says we went up to 43,000 feet. Touched it, and came right back down. But we learned all about anoxia.

01:37:44.000 - 01:38:00.000

They call that another name today. But they'd have us take off our oxygen masks, writing with a pencil and paper, and then they'd put the mask on, and you'd see your handwriting. You hadn't experienced a thing, but you'd see your handwriting had drifted off the page.

01:38:00.000 - 01:38:19.000

Anoxia is a sleeper. While you were at Buckingham, did your husband stay there until you were disbanded? No, I was transferred to Roswell, New Mexico that fall, that October, September, October. Do you know why they transferred you?

01:38:19.000 - 01:38:42.000

Yes, we do, because they were closing down the B-17s, and the field was going to be turned over to B-24s. And so now, Buckingham Army Air Field was part of the Eastern Training Command, and I was transferred to the Western Training Command at Roswell Army Air Field. Were all the WACs transferred?

01:38:42.000 - 01:38:58.000

The groups, yes. Three of us went to Roswell, and four went to Las Vegas. We had a choice. So when you got to Roswell, what was your assignment?

01:38:58.000 - 01:39:14.000

The assignment now, we were fully qualified first pilots, and we shared first pilot time, and we did test flying for the engineering department. New engines, any new components, we had the slow time engines. In the B-17?

01:39:14.000 - 01:39:31.000

In the B-17. And you had to wait now for this plane to be ready by the mechanics, and then you had to check it off to be on the line. What was a crew made up of in an engineering test flight? There was a pilot, co-pilot, and crew chief.

01:39:31.000 - 01:39:53.000

What was Roswell primarily, what was the base used for? At this time, it was going to be turned into a B-29 base, I believe, and they were phasing out 17s, and so it was just a storage place at that time. We stayed in the nurses' quarters here.

01:39:53.000 - 01:40:11.000

We had very nice rooms, it seems to me, and we were only three girls. And the guys, of course, now Greeny was married while we were at Buckingham also, and the guys always wanted to have us go out to parties. Well, we didn't want to go to parties, so we was a tug.

01:40:11.000 - 01:40:31.000

We were something new, for heaven's sake. It was out of nowhere. It's west, west of West Texas, west of the Pagos. When you went to Roswell and left your husband at Buckingham, was that not a real challenge to you, not to get out?

01:40:31.000 - 01:40:47.000

Well, what happened is the four of us drove as far as El Paso. And what you do in the service, I guess you all know, is you make the best of what happens to you. So we got to El Paso, and Greeny said, "Well, let's go visit my family,

01:40:47.000 - 01:40:58.000

or George's family in California." So we got on the overnight train and all went to California. We had enough time. Then we came back to El Paso and took the car over to Roswell.

01:40:58.000 - 01:41:20.000

Went to Carlsbad Caverns, even. And while I was at Roswell, Bill got a flight in a BT to come up to visit me, and we went up to Cheyenne and stayed in Colorado Springs and Denver. It must have been five days or something like that, a long, long weekend.

01:41:20.000 - 01:41:34.000

So we got together. In the meantime, the Army, in its wonderful way, says, "Well, the war is still going on, and this is '44, and they're planning the invasion of Japan,

01:41:34.000 - 01:41:52.000

and he's going to be transferred as a B-29 pilot." So all this is in the wait-and-see type. When did you learn--how did you learn about the deactivation of the WASP? I had a letter.

01:41:52.000 - 01:42:13.000

I received a letter saying--and I have the letter here, and I think it's important to note that the letter said that the program will be disbanded. Is the word "disbanded"? I've got to be careful of that word.

01:42:13.000 - 01:42:45.000

Anyway, it will terminate, is of course what happened, on the 20th of December. But Eddie Wasp can honorably resign as of the 20th of November with no questions or penalties. And I took that at face value. And so both Greenie and I resigned, and Julie Ledbetter stayed for that last month because she wanted to.

01:42:45.000 - 01:43:12.000

There was not as much flying work by this time, and there was just this urgency to get together. So when Bird wrote her book, Bird Granger wrote "On Final Approach," she made a real distinction, and I felt that since no penalties or no-- that that meant that you were fully a WASP as long as the program existed.

01:43:12.000 - 01:43:33.000

There was going to be no recourse. And so now I know that she times people as how many people were in service at the 20th, but I really think it should be the 20th of November. So then I drove back, and we met the boys in Mississippi or in Louisiana,

01:43:33.000 - 01:43:54.000

and then we drove back to the same base where I had been welcome on board, and we made it through PX, through the mess hall, through the squadron, and now I became a WIFE, and I had absolutely no--we had to be invited into the field. Is there anything that I have left out of your WASP training

01:43:54.000 - 01:44:13.000

or your duties as a WASP that you would like to tell us about? I think perhaps the one moment that was a warm moment was when the first class of gunners actually graduated, and I felt that I had helped the war effort,

01:44:13.000 - 01:44:31.000

and that the incredibly long time it took to become a pilot was well worthwhile. And that I was serving my country. I found that to be a high mark. And now you're an Air Force WIFE. How did you spend your time when he was up flying?

01:44:31.000 - 01:44:49.000

Oh, this is--that's where the book--the chapter closes, another chapter begins. Well, I had trained, as you know, as a home economist, and nutrition was one of my specialties, so I asked if I could help in the American Red Cross and taught a canteen course.

01:44:49.000 - 01:45:09.000

And I had absolutely no joy, no appeal, so I did that for a while. And then we were transferred to Maxwell Field where he became a B-29 pilot and went through transition, and life went on. Did you get involved with Officers Lives Club thing?

01:45:09.000 - 01:45:24.000

Officers Lives is very interesting. When we were at Maxwell Field, there was one refrigerator in the BOQ. We started in town, and the bugs were so bad. Those--what do they call them--plantation bugs?

01:45:24.000 - 01:45:37.000

-Talmado? -Talmado bugs. And I said, "Lord, this isn't for me." They'd hit the lampshade at night, you know, and they'd scatter around the sink. Oh, I thought, "Oh, it's terrible."

01:45:37.000 - 01:45:50.000

So we moved back to the BOQ and had two great big rooms. You remember how it was. They were huge with two bathrooms and two little tiny sinks and two showers and so forth. Tried to make that into a home.

01:45:50.000 - 01:46:05.000

There was a refrigerator, one refrigerator down the hall. Outside, it was an open porch. You had a shelf. So one morning, I was getting my milk or whatever it was from the shelf

01:46:05.000 - 01:46:20.000

and met this lady, and she said, "I'm Major Smith's wife." I said, "Well, I'm Dawn Baldwin." I thought that was kind of-- And I did try. I did try playing bridge.

01:46:20.000 - 01:46:33.000

I did try with the officers' women. And I was too friendly a soul, and I must have touched a card. "That card's boarded." Oh, so I said, "This isn't for me."

01:46:33.000 - 01:46:48.000

But we heard those airplanes go over. They wouldn't even let us look at the B-29s. I had one ride, I think, with Bill in an AT-6, and that was fun. And then I became pregnant, and he was killed on the 24th of January

01:46:48.000 - 01:47:04.000

and missing in Pensacola Bay. And it was an accident, and then I went through all that. It's another chapter. This one is life being pregnant in January and having the baby in September.

01:47:04.000 - 01:47:16.000

Okay. So when he was killed, you were just pregnant. You had not had her. Yeah, just a couple weeks. So my flying was curtailed.

01:47:16.000 - 01:47:32.000

How did that change your life? My life was changed completely. I went home. The doctor had ordered me to go to bed and to take care of the baby.

01:47:32.000 - 01:47:47.000

But this active person just suddenly--hmm. So by April I was up and about, and several of my friends wanted to date me, and here I was. It was very uncomfortable.

01:47:47.000 - 01:48:02.000

And my sister was there, and my brother had a girlfriend who was a graduate student at the Eastman School of Music, and so we started back into this life of music and concerts and fun. It was a different kind of life.

01:48:02.000 - 01:48:14.000

Did you live at home with your mom? Yes, I lived at home. And then how did you spend your time other than taking care of the baby? Well, then I gradually went back into the business, and then I became more social,

01:48:14.000 - 01:48:35.000

and we moved to a great big house, and my brothers came home from the war, and we went skiing, and we partied, and I had my baby, and I traveled, and I became a very active volunteer and filled my days. What kind of volunteer work did you do?

01:48:35.000 - 01:49:02.000

Well, I was involved in my Cornell Club, and for Cornell University I was vice president of the national group, and I was active, and I loved that, and I traveled. I worked on all the appeals for money, you know, the chamber and this, helped move the U of R campus from Prince Street to the River Campus,

01:49:02.000 - 01:49:18.000

and I was more or less happy, I think. And then I bought some land. You couldn't be a farmer? No, I wasn't going to be a farmer, but I needed to put down my own roots,

01:49:18.000 - 01:49:37.000

and I bought this property at the lake in 1954. It was an old orchard, an old sickle-fare orchard, and it's on a hill, and I tried to buy the house next door, and that had been quickly sold, so I said, "Well, go ahead," and Mother wanted to buy the land next door,

01:49:37.000 - 01:49:58.000

so it must have been about five acres, and started with raw land, and somehow built roads, and the bulldozers would come, follow me, and did roads, and this was my life saving. And then I met Mort, and we found love, and that was--Phil, by that time, was 9 or 10, 9 years old, I think.

01:49:58.000 - 01:50:23.000

And what was there about Mort that made you--what qualities did he possess that made you fall in love? Isn't it interesting? Well, he was--first of all, he was a dear, sweet guy, but he also was a sailor, excellent sailor. Sailed on Lake Ontario in 12 meters, and crewed, was a pilot, and had his own business,

01:50:23.000 - 01:50:37.000

and loved me, I suppose. And did you stay on your property, live on your property? No, this was strictly vacation property. And then the two of us, after we were married, we started--we built a dock,

01:50:37.000 - 01:51:00.000

and then we built stairs down the hill, and then we built an A-frame, and then we moved that, and just kept expanding that little beach house, and then we built our retirement house, and it's a delightful place. And when your child was growing up, how did you participate, or did you in his activities?

01:51:00.000 - 01:51:19.000

Oh, yes. PTA, Boy Scouts, Cub Scouts, watched all his games, kept up my volunteer work. And I was--by that time, I was--when he was just, I guess, even that first year, I started working in my father's business. But as far as flying--

01:51:19.000 - 01:51:38.000

Flying, I did not fly. When did you first become interested or start participating in WASP? Went to--the first reunion I went to was 1972, and Mort went with me, and the old gang, the old B-17 gang, Gret got together,

01:51:38.000 - 01:51:55.000

and Jackie Coffman was there at Avenger Field, and she was in her big motor home with her oxygen. And Bruce Arnold was there, and that's the night that Bruce Arnold--we were talking at that time

01:51:55.000 - 01:52:11.000

about doing something about our militization or veteran status or something, and I remember appealing to him before the banquet. We all arrived early, and he was at the head table. Robert--I mean, Bruce Arnold, and I said to him,

01:52:11.000 - 01:52:26.000

"You're the only person who knows the WASP. Your father, the commanding general of the United States Army Air Forces, supported us completely, as did Jackie Coffman. He supported Jackie Coffman and her dream of women flying."

01:52:26.000 - 01:52:43.000

And I said, "You're the only person who can help us because you know it so intimately through your father." And he looked at me and-- And years later, we opened the women's corridor at the Pentagon,

01:52:43.000 - 01:53:01.000

and this was when I was first president, probably between '82 and '83 perhaps. And I invited him to come among B. Haydew, who had done so much for the militarization of the WASP, which, by the way, happened around 1977,

01:53:01.000 - 01:53:22.000

and then the first veteran's status was granted to Lillian Roberts in 1979. Anyway, this exhibit was fun because it had-- WASP dominated the World War II exhibit, and I was able to give to the exhibit the pen

01:53:22.000 - 01:53:37.000

that Lillian Roberts had signed her first discharge, her first veteran's papers, I think that's what it was called, which was '79. So it all sort of--and it hangs there,

01:53:37.000 - 01:53:51.000

suspended from the ceiling in this big exhibit case. It's huge. And Bruce Arnold--I showed him the picture that my friend, Ginny Aker, had taken of me talking to Bruce at Sweetwater,

01:53:51.000 - 01:54:04.000

and he wrote on the photo, he said, "To the gal who made me do it." [laughs] I was very pleased. I always liked him and his wife. Don, why do you think it was important for the WASP

01:54:04.000 - 01:54:19.000

to be given the status that they had earned? Well, because we were now--we were no longer a social organization, the Order of Fief and Ella. We were now incorporated as Women Air Force Service Pilots, World War II, Inc.,

01:54:19.000 - 01:54:35.000

and we had a veteran's status. And so therefore we had a quasi-military-- we were no longer just civilian pilots. We suddenly had crossed over that line, even as minor as it was,

01:54:35.000 - 01:54:47.000

but we were recognized as veterans, which meant we could have the flag in our coffin, and we could have--if some of the girls who had been injured, which was the main reason for all this,

01:54:47.000 - 01:55:02.000

during flying time, during our service in World War II, could have veteran hospital benefits. So those are the two main reasons. And I felt, at that presidency, which opened that door

01:55:02.000 - 01:55:17.000

the first time we'd been the Order of Fief and Ella, we had new bylaws, that this was something that we should explore and look into and take our place in history, really, as America's first military pilots.

01:55:17.000 - 01:55:34.000

Why do you think the WASPs were never militarized in the first place? Why? I think there are a lot of reasons. A lot of them are pretty obvious. Women--you know, the Bill of Sentiments in Seneca Falls was 1848.

01:55:34.000 - 01:55:52.000

The right to vote was 1920. It took 72 years to get the right to vote. Men don't move over easily, as you know. And I love men. That's the point. I just love men.

01:55:52.000 - 01:56:13.000

Happy to be in their company. I know that you have been extremely active in the WASP organization. What gave you the desire to make that organization work? Well, one thing, it was splintered when I took over,

01:56:13.000 - 01:56:30.000

and I was brand new, in a sense. I had no affiliation to any camp. I had no idea of the difficulties that had proceeded in the early '80s. And it was a new bylaws that we were going to use.

01:56:30.000 - 01:56:45.000

And we had a completely different set of officers. We had a president, a vice president, a secretary, and a treasurer instead of just three officers. We had three elected regional directors from one, two, and three.

01:56:45.000 - 01:57:00.000

The company was divided into thirds according to the population of the WASP. And there was work to be done, I thought, and people to recognize, one of whom was Jackie Cochran.

01:57:00.000 - 01:57:18.000

And it was a weight on my shoulders. Jackie Cochran had, in a short period of time, and had many health problems during the war, she created something quite successful, I thought.

01:57:18.000 - 01:57:35.000

She'd given women this wonderful opportunity. And you know, unless you have someone who opens a door for you and gives opportunities, there's no advancement in any cause. Without opportunity, we pretty much stay the same.

01:57:35.000 - 01:57:51.000

So she needed recognition. And I had set my heart on doing this, I think. It was a commitment that I had made to myself because I admired herself. And she certainly had given me the possibility to fly in the B-17,

01:57:51.000 - 01:58:02.000

which is a good thing I'd heard of, I thought, my gosh. So what to do? And here's Seneca Falls, right in my hometown, it's only 40 miles away from the lake.

01:58:02.000 - 01:58:19.000

And the first thing was to get her in as an honoree at the National Women's Hall of Fame. And that took me a long, long time. Not on me alone, because I was able to ask for help from the organization

01:58:19.000 - 01:58:33.000

and from the letters and so forth. And eventually that took place. But before that took place, I became involved in the hall and was asked to give the citation for Sally Ride.

01:58:33.000 - 01:58:52.000

Now Sally Ride was, of course, our first woman in space. And she was a crew member. And her appeal was absolutely remarkable to the young women and people. So I'm standing on the stage, counting down,

01:58:52.000 - 01:59:07.000

10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, blast off. I'm getting right into the mood of this whole thing. And Sally was not able to come to the induction. So I said to the audience,

01:59:07.000 - 01:59:25.000

and I will take this certificate and her medal to her, wherever she is, which was in California. So it took a year or so, and I did deliver this to her. And so then it came back.

01:59:25.000 - 01:59:38.000

Then I could talk about Jackie at the hall and had people interested, and finally she was accepted. And I think that was '93 perhaps. No, '88. I don't know.

01:59:38.000 - 01:59:50.000

'88 was the Sally Ride, and I guess soon after that the inducted Jacqueline Cochran, and I was able to. And F. F. Finley came with me for that, for moral support, because I was afraid I was going to float away.

01:59:50.000 - 02:00:08.000

I was so happy. I even had a B-17 scheduled to go over, you know, make a pass and everything. But at the last minute it rained, so I had to abort that flight. And since your two years of being president of the WASP organization,

02:00:08.000 - 02:00:17.000

what other things have you done? The other thing for Jackie was to get a stamp for her, and that took almost 10 years. As you know, it's not an easy process.

02:00:17.000 - 02:00:33.000

But that dedication was at NDO, and I was able to-- the postmaster with whom I was working and the committee was very-- they let me have--where did I want this ceremony to be? Where would the ceremony be best?

02:00:33.000 - 02:00:49.000

It would be at NDO, where she had her ranch. Then I was able to invite some of the ATA women, the Air Transport Auxiliary women, who flew with the British Royal Air Force. The first squadron that Jackie took to England,

02:00:49.000 - 02:01:06.000

three of them came with their dearing for that big event, and that was a tremendous event. And so those are very comforting events for me. And at the present time, what are you involved in?

02:01:06.000 - 02:01:25.000

Well, we've completed our statues and WASP memorials at Avenger Field, at Midland, Texas, Sweetwater--or at Texas Women's University, Joe Estes' statue. The first two were by Dottie Swain Lewis, with whom I work closely.

02:01:25.000 - 02:01:46.000

We have a statue at the United States Air Force Museum at Wright-Patterson, and we have a beautiful statue in the Honor Court of the United States Air Force Academy. And those, I think, are highlights. We now have a plaque for our 38--38 women were killed,

02:01:46.000 - 02:02:02.000

including my dear friend Peggy Seip, as you remember that story. And the plaque is now in the cemetery at the Air Force Academy, and that was dedicated last year. And there's a plaque at Texas Women's University

02:02:02.000 - 02:02:23.000

so that people know that 38 of our members gave their supreme sacrifice. Let's stop. And it's just like--oh, you're ready? Mm-hmm.

02:02:23.000 - 02:02:33.000

Oh, okay. So Jackie Conkin, the first day issue, did the Pentagon. Oh, there's one more, and that's the White House. That was good.

02:02:33.000 - 02:02:42.000

That was the first time the WASPs were invited to the White House. That was 1984. Have you been invited? No.

02:02:42.000 - 02:02:50.000

[laughter] And I had a wedding that same weekend. Really? I flew down on the early plane and came back in the afternoon.

02:02:50.000 - 02:03:01.000

And I was at the--after the church rehearsal dinner, and I was standing there all dressed up, and I'm pinching my-- Was I really in the White House? You really were.

02:03:01.000 - 02:03:07.000

I had a whole private tour. Oh, yeah, I was lucky. I was lucky. I've had some wonderful experiences.

02:03:07.000 - 02:03:16.000

Right. I wanted to ask you about a special honor that you were given a couple of years ago in Arizona. Could you tell us about that?

02:03:16.000 - 02:03:34.000

Oh, well, of course I can tell you about that. I was standing at the lake, just ready to start dinner, and the telephone rang, and this man said, "Hello, Dawn." And I said, "Hello, Mr. Sherlock."

02:03:34.000 - 02:03:51.000

He said, "You have been nominated for induction into the Arizona Aviation Hall of Fame." And I did a 360 right there. It was a complete surprise, absolutely complete surprise.

02:03:51.000 - 02:04:05.000

And I had nominated Ruth Helm many years before, because I thought she was very deserving as an Arizonan, and of course I've been spending about half my life out here, so I guess I'm a halftime Arizonan,

02:04:05.000 - 02:04:24.000

and they wanted me to participate, so that was a thrill. And for the banquet I invited all my family and friends from near and far, old pilots, my instructor, my goodness, and anyone who had influenced my life, who had been so many people.

02:04:24.000 - 02:04:36.000

And I asked one grandson to take me to the podium and the other grandson to lead me back. So it was quite an excitement. Tell me about your children now, your child.

02:04:36.000 - 02:04:53.000

Bill Baldwin, when he was about 9 I married Mort, and then I simply went on the mommy trail, I guess you'd call it. Sam was born the next April, and the twins, Elizabeth and Marguerite, were born the following year, September,

02:04:53.000 - 02:05:06.000

and Amy was born a little break there in 1960. And so I started a family, again another chapter, and that was a very happy, rewarding chapter. I loved being an older mother, and I loved having kids.

02:05:06.000 - 02:05:24.000

And tell me about those children today. The children today, well, I have 8 grandchildren, so 3 of the girls are married and building successful lives, and 2 of them own the family business, and the 3rd one is an artist.

02:05:24.000 - 02:05:45.000

And Big Bill is in California, and he's interested in-- he's a real estate person, and Sam is following Mort, my husband, in cleaning up dirty water, which we're very much interested in the environment, and we're very much interested in clean water, which we know is of limited supply.

02:05:45.000 - 02:05:55.000

And how do you spend your time now? How do I spend my time? [laughter] Oh, my dear girl.

02:05:55.000 - 02:06:09.000

Well, I was challenged, I must say, by my son in this time, when he was cleaning up for Arizona. He said, Mother, you don't think any of us are going to go through all your boxes. I must have 15 boxes of lost material that I have accumulated.

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And because each project--I love to do the project, but I'm not sure I love to do the cleanup afterwards and the throwing away, so I just put them in storage boxes, and I have all these boxes. So that's a must.

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I've closed many houses in the family, my mother's and father's and my husband's mother and his uncle's, and, you know, it goes on and on. And so I have all that too.

02:06:36.000 - 02:06:51.000

And I love history, and I love paper, for instance. I love to read things, so that's one of my weaknesses that I have to address. But I keep up the regular route. At home it's having company, and at the lake,

02:06:51.000 - 02:07:04.000

all the fun that goes along with being at the lake place. And out here it's the Pima Air and Space Museum, which I adore. I'm on the Women in Flight Committee, which we will have the 4th of March-- the 24th of March this year.

02:07:04.000 - 02:07:23.000

The Weiss are having their reunion, their biannual reunion in Tucson, and that will be the 4th, 5th, 6th of October, 2002. So we're getting involved in that. And I'm on the nominating committee for the next election of officers,

02:07:23.000 - 02:07:39.000

and it keeps on and on. Okay. Tell me, of all the things you have done, excluding your children, what is the one thing that you're most proud of?

02:07:39.000 - 02:08:07.000

I think probably it's the one that has my recognition, and the first day cover stamps for Jackie Conklin. It was a time-consuming-- but to have her recognized by the United States Postal Service was a thrill.

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Jackie had no children, and on her tombstone, which is actually a very simple, flat piece of granite, it has three things on it, three sentences, three groups of words. One is that she flew faster than sound in 1953,

02:08:32.000 - 02:08:51.000

that she was the founder of the Women Air Force Service Pilots, and that she-- goodness. Cut.

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Okay. The WASP was close to her. Is that clear? Was I clear in that? Maybe I wasn't clear. And we didn't give her much credit,

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and there are a lot of WASPs who never gave her credit. Are we still on camera? We are now. We're rolling now.

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I was going to ask you your opinion of her, and you've given me that several times during this interview, but also what you thought about the WASP program itself and what it accomplished. I think to develop a program from September '42 to December '44

02:09:38.000 - 02:10:01.000

and accomplish what Jackie did by motivating other people, without General Yount, for instance, in the Central Training Command-- he was in charge of Sweetwater, Avenger Field, she wasn't-- that she was able to, with her dream,

02:10:01.000 - 02:10:18.000

make it a reality in a very short, short period of time that changed history for women, and I appreciate that. What do you feel the legacy of the WASP will be? Oh, I think it's something about, you know, we're happy people,

02:10:18.000 - 02:10:34.000

we're healthy people, we're willing to work, we love our country, we didn't mind living in barracks and having sand, and our motto really says it all--

02:10:34.000 - 02:10:51.000

we live in the wind and the sand and our eyes are on the stars. So with that, we're unusual women, but we knew that through this effort we had personal happiness in life. What do you feel your legacy will be?

02:10:51.000 - 02:11:08.000

My legacy? Oh, my goodness, I have no idea. I have no idea. If I could encourage one woman to go to school, to try, to read, to study, a kid, a girl, to take science and math

02:11:08.000 - 02:11:20.000

and communication skills, and know that there's a big, beautiful, wonderful world out there to explore and be curious about it, then I hope that's my legacy.

02:11:20.000 - 02:11:44.000

If you could say something to children, your grandchildren, your great-grandchildren, future generations, that might encourage them to dream dreams and fulfill those dreams, what would you say to them that might give them that courage?

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I think. Think your way out of problems. Make your choices count. Opportunities are endless in this world.

02:12:01.000 - 02:12:17.000

And somehow show that you're willing to work, to try, because it'll be recognized. I think what my story teaches me, as I look back, is that why would Dr. Parmenter want to take me up in a yellow cub?

02:12:17.000 - 02:12:34.000

Or why would Logue Mitchell want to get me through training? Or why would Hap Arnold want to give women a chance? There's something about people who understand that life is opening up opportunities for other people.

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It's the most rewarding thing one can do in life. And maybe I'm helping pay back, perhaps, those people who are so wonderful to me-- my father, my mother, and all those instructors.

02:12:48.000 - 02:13:06.000

That's what my story tells, and it would be wonderful if that could come true. Dawn, is there anything that I have left out of your early life, your training, your missions as a WASP, or since then,

02:13:06.000 - 02:13:21.000

anything at all that you would like to say? Well, yes, there is. That's good. In 1984, July, I received an invitation from the White House

02:13:21.000 - 02:13:40.000

to attend the first POW, MIA-- POW, Prisoners of War, MIA, Missing in Action-- breakfast at the White House. And I knew I had to go to represent the WASP.

02:13:40.000 - 02:13:52.000

And I flew down in the very early morning. My daughter was being married the next day. She put on my uniform on the plane, and in the garden outside,

02:13:52.000 - 02:14:12.000

listened to the 21-gun salute to those brave POWs and MIAs, and was welcomed by all the people around me. They were thrilled that a WASP had attended. And I said, "What did you do?"

02:14:12.000 - 02:14:27.000

1984, that's when. And to be recognized, to know that the White House had our name and address on their file was a wonderful moment for me.

02:14:27.000 - 02:14:40.000

So let's do it. The other moment was at our reunion in Washington, D.C., when we were at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, where David Nell, who was the Secretary of the Air Force,

02:14:40.000 - 02:14:54.000

and Ethel Finley, our president at the time, laid a wreath on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. We are part of the military world. We're part of the volunteers

02:14:54.000 - 02:15:05.000

who offered their help to this country, and for that I'm very proud. You have done a great job. [laughter]

02:15:05.000 - 02:15:12.000

Enough, enough! Let's party! Wow, that made me cry, Don. Really?

02:15:12.000 - 02:15:18.000

Yeah, I got tears. Well, I think that's a good ending, wasn't it? It sort of fit in. But I did want to ask you real quick--

02:15:18.000 - 02:15:24.000

well, one I always ask-- one question is, what's your favorite word? Do you have a favorite word? Oh, I--

02:15:24.000 - 02:15:32.000

it's "odd" word and "upward," of course. Ah, I like that. But I was going to ask you, the commanding officer-- Because it goes on in your life all the time.

02:15:32.000 - 02:15:43.000

You're never static. You're always-- something's challenging you. Close this chapter and open it. Who wants to go backwards and down?

02:15:43.000 - 02:15:53.000

That's why this is so hard, to go back. The commanding officer that didn't want Wasp on the base-- how did you know he didn't want Wasp on the base? Did he ever say--

02:15:53.000 - 02:16:01.000

Well, one thing we could tell-- first of all, he didn't want to recognize us as first pilots. All he would have to have said is, "Gee, girls, you're doing great, and you're first pilots,

02:16:01.000 - 02:16:12.000

and we know that, but look, girls, you've got enlisted men on the plane, and so for reasons of military da-da-da-da, please understand."

02:16:12.000 - 02:16:19.000

That's not that way. The military is not gracious. We're not on camera, are we? Okay, I'll turn it off.

02:16:19.000 - 02:16:24.000

No, no. And then we can always chop it off. All right. The military is not gracious.

02:16:24.000 - 02:16:34.000

When we received our veteran status, you know, they had a nice little ceremony for that, and the paperwork was all this. But when we received our two--we have two medals, you know.

02:16:34.000 - 02:16:44.000

One is for American theater, if you served a year or more, and the other is for the victory medal. And it would have been nice to have a little ceremony, don't you think?

02:16:44.000 - 02:16:58.000

And done with a little flourish. Dreaming. So it's hard for the military to accept us. Yeah, you're in that--in between.

02:16:58.000 - 02:17:09.000

And because we're in between-- I have a letter in my files that I wrote to the Pentagon about whether or not they'd reconsider us after the veterans thing went through.

02:17:09.000 - 02:17:23.000

And I had a long letter back saying that they had researched it all and that no, our time was--this was as far as they were willing to go. We were going to be veterans. And because there were certain other things--

02:17:23.000 - 02:17:34.000

we're still not eligible to be Dedalians, and we're still not able to be insured by that one company that you probably have as your insurer. USAA.

02:17:34.000 - 02:17:47.000

Yes, USAA. And that kind of rankles me a little bit because I feel I'd like to wipe the slate clean, you see. I want you to know I'm an honorary Dedalian.

02:17:47.000 - 02:18:03.000

Well, that's easy. That's easy. That's easy. Yeah, I gave a speech for them. And at the end of it, one of them said, "I'd like to have her as a member of our organization."

02:18:03.000 - 02:18:14.000

And the president got up and read this letter. ...on her photo that she wanted to send in. And so we just--and there's the statue, see? And that is a Litz Dutty statue.

02:18:14.000 - 02:18:24.000

So I think it was a pretty full case. I think it's beautiful. Nice and colorful. Yes, and what a great representation for all the walls.

02:18:24.000 - 02:18:33.000

So that was the whole idea. Yes, that's what Litz said. Yeah, he wanted to have it. And just because I wanted them to know my family,

02:18:33.000 - 02:18:46.000

that I was a mother as well, I gave them an appropriate certificate bearing the above number. Ratings with limitations. Airplane, single and multi-engine, land, 325-6600 HP.

02:18:46.000 - 02:18:58.000

Six-six. I could fly at the end of the war. I could fly between 325 HP to 6600 HP. My boyfriend's car has 400 HP.