00:00:03.480 - 00:00:11.800

- Lastly, and I said, what must I do? And they thought that was hilarious. What must I do? - Delayed phrase.

00:00:11.940 - 00:00:25.180

- Yeah. And so my instructor ran up on the control panel. He said, go up and come-- several thousand feet, come down and get out.

00:00:25.940 - 00:00:37.040

and sing the puritan. So I did that about three times, and finally when things tried, I came down. (laughing)

00:00:37.460 - 00:00:53.880

And they had found the piece of wire. Well, I knew the strips were just strips, you know, that's right. So after a while, I freed her.

00:00:57.620 - 00:01:09.600

I still get it. Such a sense of freedom? Uh huh. A sense of freedom. Makes me want to fly that Stever and that 86.

00:01:11.660 - 00:01:32.860

(laughter) But not today. I spent 19 years teaching advanced biology and aviation in high school. So I had a variety of jobs.

00:01:36.560 - 00:01:49.080

Do you ever meet with other WASPs? Yes, occasionally. You don't know what day it is? Oh dear. It just dawned on us that next week is Christmas.

00:01:49.940 - 00:01:58.820

We haven't bought one present. We haven't been thinking about it. Too much else to think about. Right. Now I do hear that, okay.

00:01:59.500 - 00:02:08.060

See I can hear that, so. Hear what? I hear the, underneath the table. Um, and it's pretty.

00:02:08.080 - 00:02:13.320

Yeah. So, it is a good color. The Blue Angels wear it. Okay.

00:02:15.200 - 00:02:32.780

Alright. And I am rolling. Okay. I'm Deanie Parrish. Today we are interviewing Cody Gwen Plinkscale Linder. She was a WASP, Class 44W5.

00:02:33.500 - 00:02:51.840

Today is the 18th of December, 2003. We are in the offices of Wings Across America at Baylor University. Nancy Parrish is the videographer. Okay, Gwen, let's start off and let me ask you to give me your full name and when and

00:02:51.900 - 00:03:10.560

where you were born. Well, my full name is Cody Gwen Clinkscales Linder, and I was born in Macon, Georgia in 1922. Kelly: And where do you live now, Gwen?

00:03:10.560 - 00:03:32.980

Gwen: I live with my daughter now in Port Charlotte. Kelly: Florida? Okay. Gwen, what is your very earliest remembrances of your life? Gwen: Relative to flying? Kelly: No, relative to living.

00:03:36.320 - 00:03:48.060

I don't know, I think sitting on the front porch with Mama in the rocking chair. Kelly: Okay. Tell me about your mom. What was she like?

00:03:48.520 - 00:04:13.180

Lowry: Well, she was kind of ahead of her time, I think, a little bit, because she ran the Western Union office in Macon, Georgia. At that time, there weren't too many people, women, that were into things like that. I think she's a little bit ahead of her time.

00:04:13.340 - 00:04:20.240

Kelly: Did she do that after she was married also? McMillan: Yes. Kelly: How about your dad? What did he do?

00:04:20.280 - 00:04:41.580

McMillan: He was in sales. He sold meat for the raft packing company out of Waterloo, Iowa. The whole system, of course, of retailing is entirely different now. But he sold meat to the shops, the butcher shops.

00:04:47.800 - 00:05:14.200

Kelly: Was he away a lot as a salesman? McMillan: No, he was home every night. Tell me about your mom's parents, your grandparents. I don't know much about them. I really don't. They were Hamlin, H-A-M-L-E-N. My mother's

00:05:14.200 - 00:05:35.080

mother was a Dixon, D-I-C-K-S-O-N. That's about the extent of my knowledge of my mother's family. Kelly: Okay. And your dad's mom and dad, where did they live? They lived in Abbeville, South Carolina, and he was one of eleven children.

00:05:40.440 - 00:05:47.300

He was very gregarious. Kelly: Gregarious? McClendon. Yes.

00:05:49.990 - 00:06:23.500

Kelly: Were you able to visit them as a child? Lee: Well, we were all -- yes, you're talking about my grandparents. I wasn't able to visit my mother's side of the family, because they all died early. But my father's side of the family, and of course I've got extensive genealogy, not that I'm half on genealogy, because I

00:06:23.280 - 00:06:37.420

I think it's for excessive sex, I think, that follows a male line. Kelly: Right. You go to your grandparents' home in South Carolina, or would they come and visit your home?

00:06:37.860 - 00:06:47.200

McMillan: Well, we did both, but mostly we went and visited. Kelly: Tell me about a trip. How would you get to South Carolina? McMillan: How would we get to South Carolina?

00:06:49.800 - 00:07:13.920

We would go in a car with, I call them celluloid windows. I remember that when I was little. They needed particularly, but in whatever they want to do. So this really is to inspire and motivate kids with your life and what you have done

00:07:13.920 - 00:07:38.060

with it, that it will touch some child to give them the courage to do something special. So that's what this is for. It's education and it's motivation and inspiration for kids. So that's why I go through that first part, so that they know what kind of life you led up until the time.

00:07:46.820 - 00:08:15.280

When you were in training, tell me about your instructor, for example, in primary. In primary, I had Mr. Jenkinson. What I really regret is that on my solo flight, his wife had bought him a pair of beautiful gloves, Furline, and they were just super.

00:08:16.340 - 00:08:30.600

He lost one of those gloves. And I never did get around to buying him another pair of gloves, and I've always regretted that. Kelly: Were they in the airplane when you were soloing and you dumped them out?

00:08:30.710 - 00:08:42.940

How did you lose them? McMillan: Yeah. We were on a training flight and he—one of the auxiliary fields. And he got out and I was supposed to do something, you know, take it around.

00:08:44.040 - 00:09:00.680

And he lost his glove. Kelly: When you were in training, did all of your baymates make it through training? Buckner: No. Kelly: Tell me about the ones who washed out.

00:09:00.720 - 00:09:20.660

Buckner: Oh, gosh, I hadn't thought about that. Jerry Cutler, Geraldine Cutler, was the one that I think about most. I think she's about the only one I can recall. I doubt if there were others.

00:09:21.380 - 00:09:37.800

Kelly: Do you know why she washed out? McMillan: No. Kelly: While you were at Sweetwater, do you recall meeting any of the civilians who lived in Sweetwater?

00:09:38.110 - 00:09:50.820

McMillan: No. I will admit that there was a couple that had us for dinner one Sunday, and I appreciated that. Do you remember their names?

00:09:51.440 - 00:10:02.900

No. How did you get acquainted with them? Do you recall? I think it was through the church, I believe.

00:10:03.260 - 00:10:19.960

Which church? Presbyterian, probably, or Methodist, one or the other. Kelly: While you were in training, did you have a lot of time off on weekends? McMillan: No, I can't remember having much time off.

00:10:20.180 - 00:10:44.780

I had some, and we would go to town and go to the Blue Bionic and have our dinner. How were you treated by the citizens of Sweetwater? Well, considering everything, I think we were treated very well. They seemed to try to make amends.

00:10:47.860 - 00:11:09.040

When you first started training, did you ever think that you would not make it all the way through? No, I didn't even entertain the thought. It was something I put out of my mind. Tell me about the mess hall. How was the food?

00:11:09.580 - 00:11:59.660

Well, I remember the delicious respite we had. We had these muffins-shaped tins, and that was corned beef that they would put in and They could fit the tin baking sheets, and then they'd break an egg in it. I remember that struck me as being very strange.

00:12:03.180 - 00:12:16.520

Kelly: Christmas 1943, you were at Avenger Field. Tell me about that Christmas. Do I have to? That was a bad day.

00:12:18.340 - 00:12:54.900

But I managed to get a flight to Macon, Georgia, and my big sister, my older sister, was living in Macon, Georgia then still. We got a flight into Macon to Warner Robinsville, and that was the start of my civilian life, so to say.

00:12:56.620 - 00:13:04.540

Now, this was after you graduated, right? Uh-huh. Okay. I was wondering about the Christmas that you were in training.

00:13:04.860 - 00:13:35.060

Oh, that was a sad time, because we just got there and it was Christmas, and goodness knows I had never been away from—well, I had been away from activities like that for a while, but it was a sad time. Then, when you finished primary training, then what did you fly?

00:13:36.020 - 00:13:50.560

McMillan: We went into the '86. Kelly: Okay. When you finished in the '86, do you recall what kind of training you did mostly in the '86?

00:13:51.240 - 00:14:05.940

McMillan: Well, it seems like we— Kelly: Night flying, for example? We did night flying, and I can't recall too much about that. Kelly: Okay.

00:14:07.460 - 00:14:31.120

And then when you finished the AT-6, you went into another phase, and what was that? Well, it seems that we skipped—how did we do that? We skipped— Kelly: I think then you went into BTs for instruments?

00:14:31.450 - 00:14:38.300

Middleton: Yeah. Kelly: Right. How did you enjoy instruments? Middleton: Oh, it was all right.

00:14:38.340 - 00:14:56.740

It was just something to get through. I like to be able to look out and see. That part was kind of bad. Kelly: Do you recall anything that happened that was outstanding during the time you were

00:14:56.800 - 00:15:26.720

at Avenger, those seven months? We just had a lot of sun, I should say, free time, and we would sunbathe. Kelly: Want to tell me about the air conditioning? The air conditioning, it was nonexistent in Texas.

00:15:27.840 - 00:15:46.600

Oh, I tell you, that was something. Kelly: Where did you go on your cross-country flights? We went to Abilene and Waco. We came here, I think.

00:15:50.940 - 00:16:30.560

I can't recall where we went. We went on a kind of a long, long trip. We went through this pass. We all agreed to harass the flight controller, and I should remember that, when I was controlling

00:16:30.560 - 00:16:51.200

traffic. But anyway, we agreed, we'd say, "Howdy-ho, howdy-ho, rodeo, radio." This guy would come on the radio, and "Jeez, the cricket." He didn't know what had been invaded.

00:16:52.820 - 00:17:09.320

Kelly: On any of the flights, were you ever lost? McMillan: No. I was never lost, but I was lost in civilian life. Kelly: After the WASP?

00:17:09.320 - 00:17:56.020

McMillan: After the WASP. You want to go ahead and tell me about that? Well, I was flying into Charleston, West Virginia, and it was after the reunion at the Cleveland And I got a plane to fly back to Macon, Georgia, and we encountered some rain, and it was bad

00:17:56.080 - 00:18:11.600

visibility. And anyway, I couldn't find myself. I wasn't lost. I knew where I was every minute of it, but I would go back and get on the flight path

00:18:12.040 - 00:18:43.440

and follow it right through, and come up, and the airport was not there. So finally I said, "Well, Tracy, we better get—Lynn, the first field we can find, because I can't find the field." And so we landed in the floodplain that was Farmer, and I got out and went up and told

00:18:43.440 - 00:19:01.480

the lady I was lost. She said, "Oh!" She said, "Don't worry about it. Everybody fouls up here, and they don't find their way right."

00:19:01.480 - 00:19:17.180

And so I asked, "Could I gas up?" She said yes. She was a flying farmer. And so I gassed up and took off, and went back on the field again.

00:19:17.320 - 00:19:36.600

time I made it. Kelly: Good. While you were in training, were any of the girls killed? Do you recall? McMillan: Yes. Two on the field, the girl and her instructor, were killed on the field. Kelly: How did that make you feel?

00:19:37.270 - 00:19:53.880

McMillan: I felt very sad for the parents. It was terrible. While you were in training, did your mom and dad, were they able to visit you, for example, when you graduated? Kelly: No.

00:19:53.970 - 00:20:05.520

Kelly: No. Okay. When you graduated, tell me about the graduation. Were there some dignitaries who came, or what happened?

00:20:05.600 - 00:20:24.100

I know it wasn't too big a deal when we graduated. I can't recall too much about it. Kelly: When you graduated, what did your orders—where were you sent then? McMillan: To Laredo, Texas.

00:20:25.840 - 00:20:56.460

While you were still in training, tell me about the uniforms that you wore, how you felt when you got new uniforms. We were really high class. It was tiring to see those zoot suits and large suits and something else.

00:20:56.740 - 00:21:19.240

Kelly: When you graduated, were you able then to spend some time at home? McMillan: No, it seems like I went right to the field. When you got to Laredo, to whom did you report? I don't know.

00:21:21.130 - 00:21:25.260

Were there already some WASPs there? Yes. Okay. Where did you live?

00:21:26.540 - 00:21:45.360

Where did I live? Were you in barracks? Oh, in Bays. The Bays housed six people, and we got along surprisingly well, I think.

00:21:46.030 - 00:22:07.500

Were you in nurses' quarters, or did you have your own barracks? No, we lived with the—well, it depended on the base we were at. When I was at Laredo, we lived with the nurses. I guess we did with most all of them, come to think about it.

00:22:07.660 - 00:22:27.900

Kelly: What was your assignment at Laredo? Why were you sent? Well, that's what we wondered, because we didn't have any training, advanced instrument training, multi-engine training.

00:22:29.460 - 00:23:07.140

And that was kind of bad. But in the meantime, the field at Greenwood, Mississippi, basic field, was having a storm, hurricane, and they had damaged most every plane on the field. So Darlene Calkins and I were sent there from Laredo to test for maintenance, because all

00:23:07.160 - 00:23:25.980

the planes had to be test flown. It was a basic field. And then we were sent to England Field, Florida. Let me back up and ask you about Laredo.

00:23:27.080 - 00:23:36.900

Were you not kept there because that was for twin-engine airplanes and you had not been checked out in those? Is that— That's right.

00:23:37.160 - 00:23:52.020

We would just sit there and we would fly with them in the right seat. How long did you stay at Laredo? I don't know. I wish I had written these things down.

00:23:52.240 - 00:23:58.260

Kelly: Right. Okay. But then you were transferred to Greenwood, Mississippi. How long—

00:23:58.260 - 00:24:05.680

McMillan: Yes. Kelly: Did you stay for a long time at Greenwood or just a short time? McMillan: Short time. Kelly: Okay.

00:24:06.020 - 00:24:29.760

And then how many of you were sent on to Eglin? Darlene and I were sent on, and then we met up with, I think, Jimmy Foster. It was three or four of us. Kelly: What was your assignment at Eglin?

00:24:31.010 - 00:24:39.640

Buckner: Well, we were ferrying the planes from one auxiliary field to the other. Were these single engines? Single engines. Okay.

00:24:41.260 - 00:24:45.100

Where did you live at Eglin? Were you in barracks? With the nurses. With the nurses.

00:24:46.800 - 00:24:58.620

How were you treated by the other WASPs who were already there and by the personnel there? Very well. I had no complaints of that. Okay.

00:24:59.100 - 00:25:15.480

And how was your social life at Eglin? Well, it was picking up. [Laughter] Was there any pickup that remained special to you?

00:25:15.800 - 00:25:28.560

Yes, my husband, actually. I met him at Eggman Field, Florida. How did you meet him? Was he a pilot? He was a pilot. What was there special about him?

00:25:31.060 - 00:25:47.740

Well, I don't know. Is this on the record? We'll skip this. What was there socially to do at Eglin?

00:25:48.080 - 00:26:14.260

I know it wasn't near a big town, so what did you do socially? Did you go to dances? and went to dances and movies, that sort of thing. Let me ask that last question another way. What were the qualities that made you fall

00:26:14.260 - 00:26:47.700

in love with your husband-to-be? What qualities did he have? He was a much-decorated fighter pilot. But he was just bright looking. Kelly: While you were at Eglin, were you able to fly home at any time, fly an airplane yourself

00:26:48.460 - 00:27:10.880

to go home? I flew from Greenwood home several times. I would say something, but I was afraid. At Eglin, then did you spend the rest of the time ferrying aircraft from one auxiliary

00:27:11.040 - 00:27:30.960

field to another? Do you recall how you heard that the WASPs were going to be disbanded, and how did you feel about that? McMillan: Oh, it seems like one or the other WASP was called in and told or shown a letter

00:27:30.960 - 00:27:52.240

or something. Then she came and told us, and we were very devastated. Kelly: When the WASC were disbanded, what did the air base do to recognize your service? McMillan: Not a thing in the world.

00:27:53.330 - 00:28:06.720

We just didn't have a job the next day, no plane to fly, nothing. Kelly: No parade? McMillan: No parade. Kelly: Did they fly you home?

00:28:07.020 - 00:28:25.680

I managed to find a flight home, a plane that was going that way, and we were allowed to take a flight. Kelly: So you went back home to South Carolina. Then what did you do?

00:28:28.940 - 00:28:54.060

Well, then I went to work for the FAA. I tried to get a job with the Red Cross, and I couldn't because I wasn't old enough. It was the bane of my life. I wasn't old enough, and then I was suddenly too old.

00:28:56.700 - 00:29:14.280

Kelly: Let me ask you, Gwen, before I go any farther, is there anything about your training that you would like to tell us about that I've left out? Anything special that happened or anything about training? Gwen: No, I can't think of anything.

00:29:15.820 - 00:29:31.260

You've been very thorough. Kelly: Well, if you think of something, just jump in. When you went to work for the FAA, did you live at home? No, that's when we were very close.

00:29:31.400 - 00:29:55.220

Earlene Flory, Darlene Calkins, and it was five or six of us. We all went to New York to FAA school. At that time, they were on Lexington Avenue. We couldn't find a place to live where we would all be together, and we'd gotten so

00:29:55.380 - 00:30:19.440

close. So we ended up going to—living at Spelman Hall in Greenwich Village. This was the only place that would take six people at one time. So we lived there and we enjoyed that, because we could go to the different restaurants and

00:30:20.140 - 00:30:29.720

places to eat and so on. Kelly: And the FAA was located at an airfield? McMillan: No, it was a school. Kelly: Oh, it was a school.

00:30:29.720 - 00:30:43.660

McMillan: A school. And there they got this big expanse out at Oklahoma. But this was strictly a school. We had classes and—

00:30:44.030 - 00:30:48.400

Kelly: Okay. And it was in— McMillan: In Lexington Avenue. Kelly: Okay.

00:30:48.400 - 00:31:13.960

McMillan: And we were there when one of the treaties was signed, which one, what. Kelly: Okay. How long did the school last? Well, it lasted—it was supposed to last six weeks or six—but anyway, I was yanked

00:31:14.100 - 00:31:45.820

out and so was the Virginia Foster Mudd of class, because we were a little bit faster than the others in the school. They needed someone in Norfolk, Virginia, very badly. So they sent Jimmy and I down there, and we stayed at Norfolk, Virginia for quite a while.

00:31:45.990 - 00:32:32.200

Kelly: What was your job? Actually, see, I was employed as an aircraft communicator trainee, and then I went ahead and complained about that, and I got my airport traffic control tower operators certificate. We lived in Norfolk, because that was where they needed somebody so badly, at the Tower.

00:32:35.840 - 00:32:55.760

There was two of us, and then there was someone in the Weather Bureau, someone at the Troll Tower. Anyway, it was about five or six of us, and we couldn't find a place to stay again. Oh, God.

00:32:56.260 - 00:33:11.640

So would you believe it? We bought a house. We could buy a house cheaper than we could rent. So we all chipped in, and we put a little bit down, very little.

00:33:12.980 - 00:33:27.540

And that's where we lived for a while, until we were transferred. Kelly: In the meantime, you were keeping track of this fighter pilot? McIntire: Yes. Kelly: Okay.

00:33:29.540 - 00:33:53.400

When you left the FAA job there, then what did you do? Well, we were transferred around quite a bit. I think when they -- again, it's an old history of discrimination. Of course, I was so dumb, I didn't know it then.

00:33:54.540 - 00:34:24.420

I didn't know I was being discriminated against. But I was transferred to—and Jimmy wasn't with me then, I was by myself. And I went to Lynchburg, Virginia, and I was in the control tower. It's a combined—it was then—a combined control tower and aircraft communicator station.

00:34:26.220 - 00:35:03.040

And I stayed there a while. Then they had a furlough, because Congress didn't pass an appropriation bill. And so we were kind of stranded there. But there I met up with a girl in the Weather Bureau, a girl from the Red Cross, and I've

00:35:03.060 - 00:35:20.200

forgotten where. In any way, we had a big time. One of these girls knew this couple that had this big, beautiful house. And so I asked him if they would rent the house, because they were going to Florida

00:35:20.300 - 00:35:36.080

for the summer. And she had rent the house, and she said yes. So I signed the lease, and here I had this great big house that came with a maid and a handyman.

00:35:42.000 - 00:35:56.780

And we had fun there. That was my favorite place, was Lynchburg, Virginia. Kelly: And actually you were working in the weather bureau there? Bethe: No, I was in the control tower.

00:35:56.780 - 00:36:21.000

Kelly: In the control tower, okay. Bethe: In the control tower, in the airport traffic control. Kelly: Then why did you leave there and where did you go? McMillan: Oh, that's when I resigned to be married.

00:36:22.420 - 00:36:38.260

Kelly: In the meantime, did your fiancé – that's not the word – did he come up, fly up to visit you or did you go down and visit him? Was he still at Eglin? Yes, he was still a laborer.

00:36:42.260 - 00:36:51.600

Want to tell me how he proposed? Well, he did it by mail. Do you still have that letter? No.

00:36:55.320 - 00:37:11.700

Had you met his parents? No. His mother died when he was three years old, and he was raised by his father and stepmother. Kelly: Then where did you get married?

00:37:11.990 - 00:37:27.360

McMillan: In Sanford, Florida, because my parents were there. Because they had retired recently and moved to Florida, that was about the only place. Kelly: Right. Tell me about your wedding.

00:37:29.540 - 00:37:44.980

Did some of your WASP friends come? McMillan: No. He was mainly friends locally that I'd met. Kelly: Did you marry at home or in a church?

00:37:45.000 - 00:38:00.820

Bethe: In a church, Presbyterian Church in Sanford, Florida. Kelly: Then once you were married, where did you go? Bethe: To Muncie, Indiana. Kelly: What was it, Muncie?

00:38:02.180 - 00:38:34.280

My husband had finished college, and he got a job in civilian life as a civil engineer. Kelly: Okay. So when you married, he was already out of service? He finished up a few weeks, months, and then you moved.

00:38:37.540 - 00:38:51.820

So in Muncie, where did you live? Did you live in town there? Did you live out? Yeah, we lived in—we had a duplex, and that's where we lived.

00:38:51.980 - 00:39:12.000

I don't know what the street was there. Kelly: While you were there, tell me about—I know that you have a son. Tell me about your children. McMillan: Walt was the oldest, and he's a doctor now.

00:39:14.140 - 00:39:37.180

Kelly: Was he born in Muncie? McMillan: He was born in Ames, Iowa. Then Barb was born in Sanford, Florida, and then my youngest, Cody, was born in Columbus, Ohio.

00:39:38.660 - 00:40:02.140

Of course, Jay transferred very frequently. He actually had a double major. He was an architectural civil engineer. He had his credations in civil engineer.

00:40:04.970 - 00:40:28.020

Kelly: How did you spend your time when those children were growing up? That was the hardest job I ever had in my life. I loved my kids dearly, and I wouldn't take anything in the world for them. When you were saying that, one wasp had eleven kids.

00:40:30.620 - 00:40:42.600

Kelly: Were you and your husband involved in their school activities? No, not too much. Kelly: Okay, PTA? McMillan: They were real young.

00:40:42.600 - 00:41:01.020

They were kind of close together. It was a tough kind of job keeping up with them, for me. Kelly: Okay. But as far as sports activities and stuff, were they involved in that, and were you involved?

00:41:01.020 - 00:41:28.500

McMillan: Oh, yes. was very active with the piano, and my son, Walter, was very active in the band, and he was with the NCR band, which is like a symphonic band. They were all into Scouts and the usual. They were active, and that made me active.

00:41:31.320 - 00:41:50.360

Were you ever a scout mother, scout den mother? Yes, I had a little chore with that, too. It used to kill me when all these women would talk about they had this work to do with the scouting and all.

00:41:51.800 - 00:42:10.160

And Jesus and I thought, "God, what would they do if they had all these kids that I've for the Scouts, and school, too. Kelly: Inasmuch as their mom and dad were both pilots, were any of your children ever interested in aviation?

00:42:10.690 - 00:42:35.420

McMillan: It's a funny thing, they weren't. I would say my younger son expressed more interest. And at the time I was teaching high school, I was active in the Soren Society in Dayton, Ohio, which is the largest one in the United States, believe it or not.

00:42:36.550 - 00:43:11.280

I don't know whether it still is. But anyway, we would go out there to the glider port at Waynesville, which is a suburb, and fly gliders. I got him, he soloed in the gliders, so that's as close as we came. Now, Walter, my doctor here in Waco, has decided he wants to get a gyro and build it.

00:43:16.440 - 00:43:38.360

What—when your children were growing up—no, that's not the question I want to ask. That was a bad winter. Kelly: But you had seen snow before. Morgan: Yeah, but not like that.

00:43:39.980 - 00:43:50.540

Well, imagine me. I'm from Florida, and I had never seen snow. And I was in that snow. Kelly: Okay, I'm rolling, and we've got about four minutes until I change.

00:43:50.540 - 00:43:58.400

And I'm going to change tape, but we might as well use this. So go ahead. Okay. Kelly: Well, I don't see why anybody would be interested in all this.

00:43:58.420 - 00:44:07.880

Kelly: Okay. Well, let me ask you about teaching school. When did you start teaching school? Bell: I started in '61.

00:44:08.080 - 00:44:23.860

Kelly: Okay. And what did you teach? I think I've taught every science in the school. I started out in the junior high, and that was the opening.

00:44:26.900 - 00:44:48.160

Then I went on to the high. In two years, I went up to the senior high. Whenever they would introduce a new science course, I would get it. I've taught geology and aviation and everything.

00:44:48.590 - 00:45:01.800

Kelly: Did you teach your own children? Were they ever in your classes? Ruebens: No. Walt was in one when I substituted once, and he was real upset about that.

00:45:02.640 - 00:45:25.960

Once you finished training and got out of the WASP, were disbanded, did you ever fly again? Yes, I didn't fly a great deal. I flew for a fixed-base operator and took people on sightseeing flights and orientation

00:45:26.100 - 00:45:57.360

flights and stuff like that. I've flown several times, and like I was saying in there, about three years ago I flew AT-6. And it was just like I hadn't been away from it at all. It was nice. And it was Jim Brown's plane, and he has a propeller company in Pickwa, Ohio.

00:46:01.140 - 00:46:17.100

He let me come out and let me fly. That was so thrilling, to get back in an AT-6. [ Laughter ] >> You have a choice of tape?

00:46:17.310 - 00:46:22.600

>> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay?

00:46:22.770 - 00:46:43.200

>> Mm-hmm. >> Okay. Gwen, in looking back over your life, of all the things you have done outside of having your children, What one thing do you consider that you enjoyed the most?

00:46:44.860 - 00:47:21.280

I guess the time in the Wasp and knowing the girls that I knew in the Wasp. What is your personal opinion of Jacqueline Cochran? I admire her tremendously. I do not know how you feel about her, but I think she had an awful lot of grit and determination, and I admire that. To have accomplished what she

00:47:21.280 - 00:47:37.720

did, coming from the background that she did, is phenomenal. I can't help but admire her. Kelly: What do you feel the WASP accomplished? McMillan: I think they accomplished everything they set out to accomplish.

00:47:38.700 - 00:48:17.260

I think they proved that women could fly as well as men. They released the men from combat and shut out the deal. Kelly: If you could speak to a child fifty years from now, which this videotape will do, what would you say to that child that might encourage them to reach out and do something

00:48:19.540 - 00:48:54.780

I think I would say if I could do it, you could do it. I do not think I had any ability that others did not have. I always thought of learning as being fun, kind of. There are good times and bad and happy times, and there are sad times. What has gotten you through the sad times?

00:49:00.300 - 00:49:31.420

I don't know, just the idea of perseverance, determination. If you have the determination, you can do it. Is there anything that I have left out of your life that you would like to— I would like you to ask her about the militarization of the loss.

00:49:31.540 - 00:49:57.540

She was a big part of it. When in 1977 they finally began to talk about giving us the veteran status we had earned, what role did you play in that? Well, I've got a stack of letters about this high, of all the correspondence I had

00:49:57.660 - 00:50:27.060

with the senators and the representatives. I was invited to speak before the Senate and the House of Representatives. I think I was very active, particularly considering that I was particularly engrossed at that particular time with schoolwork and so on.

00:50:27.900 - 00:50:38.860

Kelly: What was that experience like, speaking before those committees? McMillan: I was invited to. Kelly: Oh, okay. But you didn't get to?

00:50:38.960 - 00:50:59.140

Because I was too busy at school, and school was ending, exams were final, and oh, it was chaotic. Kelly: Why do you feel that they never gave the Watsons a military status they had promised them?

00:51:03.240 - 00:51:27.720

Well, I think it became a political football, of course. As anyone can see, DC Pilots lobbied, and they had a very extensive lobbying network, and I think they squashed the whole deal. What do you feel the legacy of the WASP will be?

00:51:29.700 - 00:51:53.820

Well, I think we've done a lot considering the idea that women are accepted there and flights. I don't know how extensive it is, whether all three services employ women or not, but I think it's been a great stride. What was your favorite airplane to fly?

00:51:54.450 - 00:52:05.180

McMillan: The 86. Nancy, do you have anything? Did you ever meet Jackie Cochran? Yes, I did, but it was—

00:52:05.180 - 00:52:13.200

Favorite word? I don't think I have a favorite word. Okay. What makes you get up in the morning?

00:52:13.340 - 00:52:33.100

What inspires you now? I'm aching back. Kelly: What do you feel your legacy will be? I don't know.

00:52:36.680 - 00:52:50.860

I think my younger son is more impressed with what I've done than the other kids have been. Kelly: In junior high and high school? McMillan: No, because I've kind of lost contact with them.

00:52:51.100 - 00:53:13.780

It's been so long. But I had some tremendous students. I was telling him last night about this one student I had. On his advanced placements in biology, he got—I think it was eighteen semester hours,

00:53:14.590 - 00:53:20.600

which is fabulous. Kelly: Wow. I got two. I got two.

00:53:21.470 - 00:53:31.140

He was a fabulous guy. Kelly: Wow, that's amazing. What was your favorite thing to teach? Of all the different sciences, which one did you enjoy the most?

00:53:31.310 - 00:53:47.720

McMillan: I guess biology, because I'm fascinated by life. To me, it's just miraculous. Now listen, didn't you do a dance? Kelly: I wrote a rap song.

00:53:47.790 - 00:53:56.480

McMillan: You wrote a rap song, that's right. Kelly: That's right. McMillan: And you did a dance to it. Kelly: No, Julie Stege danced to it.

00:53:57.860 - 00:54:08.320

I wrote it and Nancy is going to be able to watch you and listen to you and they will be inspired by what you have done. I hope you can speed it up so... Oh, we'll put it in movable, yeah, sure.

00:54:10.000 - 00:54:22.280

So all those... Well, the idea here is that we can take little pieces and make a story. Just make a story. Little sound bites.

00:54:22.680 - 00:54:34.720

Good. But they'll always be the whole thing. They'll always be that. But the sound bites, yeah, we want to hear about the AT-6.

00:54:35.120 - 00:54:42.180

That's your favorite plane? We want to hear about that. Tell me what it was like to fly an AT-6 for the very first time. Six hundred and fifty, how many horsepower?

00:54:44.500 - 00:54:52.780

What was that like the first time? Quintana Newton: Wee! Approaching that freedom. Kelly: Was it noisy?

00:54:53.180 - 00:55:07.600

Was it a noisy airplane? Quintana Newton: Not like the BT. That's a noisy one. Kelly: If you could take your grandchildren for a ride in an AT-6, would you do it?

00:55:07.960 - 00:55:19.260

Quintana Newton: Yeah. I'm not sure his mother would let him. Oh, she probably would. Well, this has been great.

00:55:19.400 - 00:55:32.120

Kelly: We appreciate you doing this, Gwen. Quintana Newton: Well, listen, I don't think that my mother— Kelly: You will never know already just because you've been in the military. You know, you've impacted, I don't even know how many lives you've touched.

00:55:32.560 - 00:55:40.660

Did they know you were a WASP? Did those kids know? Did you ever use that as part of your—? Well, I taught aviation in high school.

00:55:42.040 - 00:55:51.820

And, in fact, I had our high school certified as a CAA-approved ground school. Did you take the kids up? Uh-huh. You took them up?

00:55:52.040 - 00:56:05.160

We took them up for orientation flights. Yeah. Kelly: What was that like? Is that the first time a lot of those kids were ever in an airplane?

00:56:05.160 - 00:56:17.220

McMillan: Yeah. It was nice. But I had tremendous kids all the time, because I had—she's interested in music and plays the saxophone.

00:56:17.710 - 00:56:30.900

Kelly: Great. You better say you've got a grandson who's amazing, too. Well, he is. He is. Only I can't see him. He's away at school. You've got to balance that. You always have to balance that out, boy.

00:56:33.160 - 00:56:49.600

Well, I have a little bit of empathy with a girl trying to make it in the world. Right. Well, we did okay. That's something they're going to look at, though, because that was something that struck me early on when

00:56:49.600 - 00:57:02.460

I met you, was that you were a very determined, very-- Even here at Baylor, the president of Baylor University speaks seven languages. He has taught in Europe, all over the world.

00:57:04.220 - 00:57:14.980

I don't know how many degrees he has. But when we went in to talk to him about two years ago, I guess, because we started this project under another president at Baylor.

00:57:15.560 - 00:57:24.860

And now President Sloan is president. So we find a site, well, we better go tell him what we're doing here at Baylor, because we were in a -- in fact, we were up in the Robinson Towers at the time.

00:57:25.960 - 00:57:32.940

So we went into his office, and I said to him, "Do you know who the Watts were?" >> He said no. >> He said, "The what?"

00:57:32.940 - 00:57:35.820

>> Do you want this on? >> Oh. >> Are you okay? Are you warm enough?

00:57:35.820 - 00:57:53.820

>> Yeah, I'm warm enough. >> Yeah, okay. grew up in Abilene. Abilene is 35 miles from Avenger Field. Of course he's not as old as we are, but still you'd think West Texas would have never heard of the

00:57:54.060 - 00:58:25.400

wasp. He speaks seven languages, so if he doesn't know, you know, no. It's amazing. Nancy and I, last week we were invited to go to a National Aero applicators Association Convention. Wow. And they're really crop dusters. They're crop dusters. You should see their airplanes. Oh, they are so sleek.

00:58:26.180 - 00:58:45.800

They're made, they call them AG airplanes. They're for agriculture. And they are built to spray all these, you know, to take care of the crops, to To spray them, but they are beautiful airplanes not like the little Stearman anymore They're they're really sleek

00:58:46.540 - 00:59:02.080

But anyway while I was there while we were there one morning they had brought about six years ago and Then she began and she started with my scrapbook And then she began to get this while y'all are talking emails

00:59:02.960 - 00:59:08.020

Yeah, all these emails from people wanting to know more and wanting to know more