00:00:01.300 - 00:00:23.860

Did you go back to school after we were disbanded? I have to think about this. Oh, I can hardly wait to get into this about how she met Al. I don't think so.

00:00:24.120 - 00:00:42.740

Okay. Okay, we're rolling. Hi, I'm Deanie Parrish and I'm at the home of Kay DeRazo and I'm her interviewer. This is Austin, Texas. It's September 19th, 1999. [Background conversation]

00:00:48.080 - 00:01:11.640

Oh, you want me to give my name. Well, I guess you want my full name, and it's Katherine Ann McBride DeRozo. And we can skip them all and say Kay DeRozo. Tell us about where you were born, where you grew up, and about your early education.

00:01:12.100 - 00:01:53.620

I was born in Rockford, Illinois when my father was stationed at Camp Grant, Illinois after World War I. And then he was moved to Fort Lewis, Washington for a short while and then went with troops to Hawaii. And we somehow, either I don't recall, I was a little young, and we either went with them or right after them or something to Hawaii.

00:01:54.020 - 00:02:20.680

Is that what I had said before? And so my family, my mother, my brother and I, and no, not my brother, I guess I was the first one. My brother and sister were both born at Tripler General Hospital in Hawaii, but I had been

00:02:20.900 - 00:02:51.380

born in Rockford. Anyway, went to Hawaii and Daddy had a, I guess pretty much a four-year tour in Hawaii at Fort Kamehameha. And then he was sent back and went to a costatillery school at Fort Monroe, Virginia.

00:02:54.980 - 00:03:20.060

My father was in the Army and had stayed in from World War I. And he was a Coast Artillery officer. And you know, in those days, after World War I, they stayed the same rank as they had been in the war.

00:03:20.220 - 00:03:42.420

So Daddy had been a captain and stayed a captain until he was promoted in, when was it? Oh, I guess about 1933 or '34. That was the long time when they were kept in grade, because of the Depression, I think, more than anything.

00:03:46.000 - 00:04:25.640

So then he was sent to University of Illinois as an instructor. In the summers, he would go up to Fort Sheridan on Lake Michigan there, north of Chicago, and spend his summers there. And he usually arranged for the family to go somewhere up in Wisconsin or Michigan for

00:04:25.720 - 00:04:49.580

the summer. But anyway, I was in Illinois, but we lived in both Urbana and then Champaign. We moved. Daddy was reassigned to Joliet, Illinois.

00:04:55.320 - 00:05:23.140

I have to figure these things out. Joliet, I went in as a, in the middle of eighth grade, so, or after eighth grade it started. So then I, we stayed in Illinois, Daddy's assignment there lasted about almost five years.

00:05:24.390 - 00:05:45.460

And so I graduated from high school in Joliet. Then I went to the University of Illinois in the summers, two summers, and then he had orders for the Philippines. So I begged them to leave me here in the States.

00:05:45.580 - 00:06:10.680

Who wanted to go to the Philippines? And anyway, they didn't give in. And so we went by boat from, I think it was San Francisco, I don't think it was New York. I think it was from San Francisco.

00:06:12.420 - 00:06:38.140

And we went by boat and you know it was a pretty long trip by boat in those days. What age are we here now? Originally we had gone to Hawaii and then Daddy was back and stationed at Fort Monroe and then Fort Totten in New York.

00:06:41.700 - 00:07:17.600

Then after his New York tour, and this came to about 1930, I guess, he was transferred to the University of Illinois as an instructor. And so the family moved there and then he was assigned a new job as instructor at the the University of—well, it was at the high school and junior college level in Joliet,

00:07:18.040 - 00:07:32.140

Illinois. He had those groups. Then in '37, I had gone down to the University of Illinois to school, and Daddy got orders to the Philippines.

00:07:33.220 - 00:07:45.020

Well, I didn't want to go to the Philippines. Who the heck wanted to go to the Philippines? So I tried to talk them into leaving me back here in this country, but no, that wouldn't do.

00:07:47.380 - 00:08:14.920

I had been sick and they had to come down in the middle of the night, and so they decided no, they were not going to leave me in the States. So I went with them and we went on the fall boat of 1937 to the Philippines, which was a twenty-four day trip.

00:08:15.900 - 00:08:40.960

It does not take that long these days because you fly it. But anyway, we went to the Philippines and Daddy was stationed on Corregidor, which is an island out in Manila Bay that guards the entrance to Manila Bay. It's on the west side of the bay.

00:08:44.820 - 00:09:05.840

So then, Daddy, my brother, we lived on Corregidor. They had quarters there, cement quarters, to take care of the monsoons or typhoons or whatever they called them. They called them typhoons over there.

00:09:06.760 - 00:09:25.420

Anyway, my brother had to go to Manila to finish high school. They didn't have the last year of high school on Corregidor. So Daddy said, "Well, you go on and go to the university," telling me to go to the University of the Philippines.

00:09:26.160 - 00:09:44.820

They had to rent an apartment for Bob anyway. So they rented an apartment and got a servant. Bob and I lived in Manila while I went to the University of the Philippines and he went to finish high school there.

00:09:47.800 - 00:10:08.020

But he finished high school in just the one year, and so I moved back to Corregidor. College did not mean that much to me, unfortunately. How about other dependents that were there? Did you have a lot of friends?

00:10:08.720 - 00:10:37.760

Oh, yes, there were a lot. And it was a very congenial group of people that lived. Of course, at that time, it was officers and enlisted and NCOs. There was a very big separation between the two of them in those days.

00:10:40.600 - 00:11:05.640

It changed with World War II and probably should have changed way before that, but it didn't. So Daddy was stationed on Corregidor. And then the next year, in 1939, meanwhile I had gone back to Corregidor in '38 from

00:11:05.720 - 00:11:23.680

Manila. And in '39, Al came over to the Philippines and that is where I met him. And he was one of the bachelor officers, you know, great group. Now let me stop here.

00:11:25.440 - 00:11:35.300

Oh, I'm sorry I wasn't in your bay. No, I love it. You want to take those pills or some of them or? I guess I better.

00:11:35.840 - 00:11:53.700

Oh, is that where we are? Yeah. So, after you met Al. Al came to the Philippines in 1939 in spring.

00:11:55.740 - 00:12:13.380

It was either the March boat or the May boat, I think. In those days, we kept time in the Philippines by the boats. They had four boats a year that came over with new people, and the old people would return on those boats.

00:12:15.560 - 00:12:43.280

So Al came on the May boat to the Philippines in 1939. And of course, he was a bachelor. We met and had a good time together, enjoyed it. The – it was really a nice place for single gals in the Philippines because there were

00:12:43.780 - 00:13:13.680

plenty of bachelors. But I guess we got engaged and married in June 1940, June 15, 1940 is when we were married on Corregidor. And I think it's probably – the custom very often on Corregidor was that all the

00:13:13.900 - 00:13:37.200

officers and their wives were invited to the wedding and reception. So it was just a general invitation that was sent out to everybody. I don't mean general in that respect because it would be a written invitation. But anyway, we were married on June 15, 1940.

00:13:37.720 - 00:13:51.760

Was this a formal wedding day? Yes, and it was – oh, in Manila. They had a lot to choose from, surprisingly. Manila was quite modern in their shops and all.

00:13:56.120 - 00:14:20.300

So all my shopping was done in Manila, and I think Mother had written home to a friend of hers to get a couple of things, but mainly there. So we were married in the last formal wedding on Corregidor. There is an Army chapel.

00:14:20.520 - 00:14:41.000

Of course, it was up above the headquarters offices, but yes, in the Army Chapel there on Corregidor. And then we went to—on our honeymoon, we went to Baguio, which is north of—you've evidently known somebody, Baguio.

00:14:42.440 - 00:15:10.120

And it's north of Manila by probably 200 miles. And it's a real summer place for the people in the Philippines. It's cool in the hills. So then we went back to Corregidor, and of course Al was still in the same assignment

00:15:11.100 - 00:15:34.420

as a company commander. I can't think of anything. If you want to ask any questions about life on Corregidor, I don't know what to pick. Yes, everybody was assigned quarters.

00:15:37.100 - 00:16:09.220

And there was a tradition of by rank, if you were such and such rank, you should have two servants or if you were such and such rank, you should have three servants. And it was more or less to keep the people that were the native people that were working on Corregidor, giving them jobs, because you really did not have a lot of choice of whether

00:16:09.320 - 00:16:20.380

you hired anybody or not. Well, I would not have wanted to do the work in the kitchen and all anyway. What was your social life like? Our social life was quite busy.

00:16:20.960 - 00:16:53.820

was something going on every night. We had movies, a different movie every night, and sometimes movies before they came out in the U.S. We would see them over there. And I think they did that with many overseas personnel. Were there other branches of the armed forces stationed on Corregidor?

00:16:54.280 - 00:17:17.340

No, there was just the Army. And they of course, they had the big seacoast guns. And Corregidor was a little island in the middle of Manila Bay opening, the opening to Manila Bay.

00:17:18.000 - 00:17:43.080

And it was a small island, so Corregidor was Fort Mills and Fort Mills was Corregidor. It was all the Army taking over, you know. And the Army's job on Corregidor was? To guard the entrance to Manila Bay.

00:17:43.720 - 00:18:06.460

And we were out in the center of the entrance to the bay with water on either side of it, water all around us. But I mean we were in the middle of that entrance so that they'd get any ships going in or out if they needed to.

00:18:06.460 - 00:18:25.480

And I guess that was set up in more or less, I think, in the days of the Spanish occupation. I'm not real sure on that. As you were growing up, Kay, and in your high school years, and then as a young Army wife, who were your role models?

00:18:26.540 - 00:18:49.300

Who were my role models? I can't say anybody particularly other than my mother, but no, I can't say that anybody particularly was. What would make your mother a role model to you?

00:18:50.740 - 00:19:08.060

To me? Well, of course, when you're moving around a lot, you're very close to your family. I was always very close to Mother. I was the oldest, and that had a lot to do with it.

00:19:08.160 - 00:19:24.440

We were five children, and I was the oldest. My brother went back to West Point while we were there, and so there were just my three sisters and I over there. And then, of course, I got married and we moved into our quarters.

00:19:28.920 - 00:19:53.020

But Mother and Dad and the other three girls left shortly after that. Daddy had orders to return to the U.S. He was supposed to go to Missouri, but I think they were changed before he ever got there. You know, that's how it was in 1941, 1942.

00:19:54.280 - 00:20:14.780

Well, let's see. I was married in 1940, June 15, 1940. They came back the end of that summer, 1940, and he was first assigned to – this is Daddy – he was first assigned to Joplin, Missouri.

00:20:15.720 - 00:20:54.740

And then I think that then he took those troops down to the Gulf near Houston, Bay City. We were left in the Philippines, but they evacuated all the dependents of the officers. Well, of course, the enlisted also. I was going over some letters that my dad had written my aunt in 1937 when we had first

00:20:55.020 - 00:21:17.300

arrived in the Philippines and he said, "They are preparing for war here." Well, I never dreamt we were. You know, it didn't come to me, but evidently Daddy felt that we were. And that was 1937 in the fall.

00:21:20.940 - 00:21:50.140

So they came, they were sent, Daddy was sent home and they came back and he was assigned to Missouri and then assigned to the Gulf here, Camp Huland. And I do not think Huland is there anymore, I do not know. But it had been a National Guard training camp before that.

00:21:52.480 - 00:22:07.440

This is Camp Huland I am talking about. But then, of course, it was activated to everything during World War II. And it was more or less a reception center. And Daddy was a program officer.

00:22:08.120 - 00:22:22.200

I should have Al check me on a bunch of these things. How long did you stay in the Philippines, and when did you first know that you were going to be evacuated? Well, I went over to the Philippines.

00:22:22.940 - 00:22:52.380

We left the U.S. in September of 1937. I didn't know we were going to be evacuated until they sent the first people home, dependents, in mid-February of 1941. And then they were taking them by the time that their husband had been in the Philippines,

00:22:52.600 - 00:23:16.680

so the ones that had been longer there came home first. However, they didn't classify me that way. They classified me with the time Al had come over. And so I left at the end of February, 1st of March of 1941, and then came here.

00:23:17.260 - 00:23:49.560

No, I joined my mother and sisters in Illinois at Chicago Heights, where my grandmother lived. And then Daddy moved us all. He was stationed down here on the Gulf at Camp Hewlett, and he moved the whole family from Illinois down to Austin because he had a sister that wanted to go to the University

00:23:49.700 - 00:24:00.860

of Austin. So that is when we came here in the summer of '41. And Al is still in the Philippines. Al is still in the Philippines, yes.

00:24:01.740 - 00:24:39.800

And then he was assigned to Bataan. And he was on assignment in the Philippines when the war broke out. And I don't know when he had to surrender, but it was Wainwright's orders that all army, military, all U.S. military would surrender in the Philippines.

00:24:40.430 - 00:24:55.400

How did you find out about that? Our papers down here were very good at military news, and I think we were probably getting the San Antonio paper as well. I cannot remember.

00:24:57.160 - 00:25:10.060

But they were good at collecting the military news. And then did you get official notice? To return? No, that he had been.

00:25:10.540 - 00:25:30.700

Oh, official notice. I didn't get it for a year after he was taken prisoner, but they all had to surrender about the same time. So you knew that he was probably a prisoner, but you didn't know for certain because you

00:25:30.720 - 00:26:11.800

didn't get any official announcement of it until the Japanese, I guess, sent in their lists of people they had taken. We had correspondence regularly, and then after he was taken prisoner, you could only write 24 words to them every two weeks.

00:26:12.560 - 00:26:26.380

Well, you couldn't include a lot in 24 words, but it was a way of knowing they were all right. You would get something back from him? I would get it from him.

00:26:26.480 - 00:26:44.640

He would address it to my mothers. I had told everybody that I was not – they were not to tell them that I was in the WASPs. So they did not, supposedly. But he came home and he says, "I knew you were in the WASPs."

00:26:44.640 - 00:27:01.240

How he knew, I do not know. What did you do once you came to Austin? How did you keep busy with him being a prisoner? When we first came to Austin, I worked for the Adjutant General's office in the Capitol

00:27:01.560 - 00:27:32.660

Building, and was a secretary to the judge advocate. Then I stayed with that until I got the assignment to the WASPs. But meanwhile, we had lots of, as you know, we had lots of organizations that were busy with wartime things.

00:27:32.900 - 00:27:59.060

I had gone into the Women's Defense Corps here, and you know we had that, the firefighting, the life-saving, what all, the pistol shooting and various forms of that. Oh, and air warden. And so I was doing all that.

00:27:59.800 - 00:28:20.300

I was working in the daytime at the Adjutant General's office. And so that's how we kept busy, but we were all busy during World War II. And actually having a good time, a lot of us, too. The age.

00:28:21.480 - 00:28:53.240

At one point, did you decide you wanted to learn the fly? Yes, I did. And I do not remember what prompted me, but anyway, went out to Doc Hales Flying School. We had, as you know, we had to have thirty-five private hours before we could get accepted

00:28:53.360 - 00:29:07.400

for training. And so that's where I got my thirty-five plus hours, out there on those small planes, dock hills. Did you meet other girls who wanted to?

00:29:08.260 - 00:29:37.840

Yes, Millie Davidson Dalrymple was working in the Agent General's office, as I was. She came in probably a year after I did. And she wanted to do that too, so she and I together went out to Doc Hales Air School and took the required number of hours to get accepted.

00:29:38.260 - 00:30:11.040

Tell us about who the WASPs were that you wanted to be in that organization. Well, why did I? The WASPs were, I felt, a military, or connected to the military organization. It was a way of serving in World War II, and that's what I liked about it.

00:30:13.080 - 00:30:38.720

I wasn't doing much else than working in the Adjutant General's office otherwise. Now I'll take that back. I had gone out and—oh, I had joined the Women's Defense Corps and had gone out on all these various things that they had, like the firefighting and the pistol shooting and

00:30:40.360 - 00:30:58.520

life saving, you know, all of that. So that, I think, got me interested in this. Before you started training to fly, did you know any girls who were flying? Did I know any that were already in it?

00:30:59.560 - 00:31:18.320

Flying in any of these? No, I didn't except Millie. And Millie and I went in at the same time. In fact, we went out and got our hours at the same time out here at Doc Neils.

00:31:19.260 - 00:31:49.840

Were there a lot of girls training to fly at the same airport? No, I don't know of any others, although I know of a couple, at least one. It was over at Ragsdale Training, and that's another airport here, another training school. In fact, I think up at that time, Ragsdale was more popular or better known than Dock

00:31:49.880 - 00:32:05.520

Hales. At that time, why would you choose the wasp over, say, the wax? I guess it was the flying. That was the excitement.

00:32:06.700 - 00:32:23.500

I'm sure it was for you, too. What does the WASP stand for? Oh, Women Air Force Service Pilots. Once you had enough hours, what did you do?

00:32:25.060 - 00:32:59.700

You mean the thirty-five hours? Why? We applied and took the physical down at Fort Sam Houston. I do not know whether I got my interview up in Fort Worth or before I took my physical

00:32:59.700 - 00:33:19.880

or afterwards, but one of the two. Yes. You know, I was in that accident. Okay, we will let you tell them.

00:33:23.320 - 00:33:41.040

You were accepted into the WASP, and then what happened? We were accepted into the WASP. Milly and I went up there together, and because her name at that time was Davidson, mine Doreza, we were in the same bay.

00:33:46.120 - 00:33:59.500

You were not in the bay with us, were you, at any time? Because we had some changes. Where did you go? Where did we go?

00:33:59.840 - 00:34:18.660

From Austin. Where did you and Millie go? We went from Austin up to Sweetwater, Texas, and reported in there. However, I do not remember the exact formalities of it, but we did.

00:34:19.760 - 00:34:52.520

And we're given in—we're put in a bay, and we had six trainees to a bay and two bays to a latrine. And I think you could fill that in pretty well there, Deni, now. We both went through the same training, you and I and the others.

00:34:55.800 - 00:35:18.100

What did that training consist of? What did the training consist of? Well, we already had to have the thirty-five hours before we arrived. The training consisted of just adding on to all that flying experience and training.

00:35:23.400 - 00:35:29.480

Tell me about the airplanes. What did you start flying? Here? There.

00:35:29.600 - 00:35:45.980

At Sweetwater? At Sweetwater. Gee, did we fly Irancas at Sweetwater? I do not remember what we flew at Sweetwater, really, until we got to the BTs and the ATs,

00:35:46.940 - 00:36:11.900

but those first ones were the 19s, that is it. Primary trainers and then basic trainers and then advanced trainers is what we went through. And I think we had to have a certain number of hours, and I remember at the time it was the same amount that the men had in their training.

00:36:14.460 - 00:36:30.140

And I cannot remember the amount of hours that we had to have in training, but I remember it was the same as the men. Tell us what a typical day was like. Sweetwater?

00:36:31.060 - 00:36:58.320

Sweetwater, yeah, Avenger Field. A typical day. Well, we got up pretty early to get dressed and then go in formation for breakfast, came back if we had a flight in the morning—well, it was divided between morning and afternoons,

00:36:59.000 - 00:37:27.180

and we rotated, I think, around every two weeks, that we would have one in the morning and one in the afternoon. And the ground school would take half a day, and the flight training was half a day. So we did that, as I recall, but I'm not very good at recalling.

00:37:29.780 - 00:37:44.520

I think we did that for a couple weeks and then switched. And the other half of the class switched to the other one. Did you have a special job? A special job?

00:37:45.680 - 00:38:03.700

Not that I can recall it in training. A squadron commander maybe? Oh yes, I was a squadron commander. That was when Mrs. Cargo was there, I think.

00:38:04.820 - 00:38:36.540

Anyway, I keep remembering that because she was mad at them. I had been with my instructor and he was flying the plane and he flew over some friends of his house, of his, flew over their place very low to the ground. And as he was going up, he must have been looking back.

00:38:36.720 - 00:38:54.560

I was in the front seat. And he shaved the treetops at this place. Well that was reported right away and he was dismissed. He was just an awfully nice boy.

00:38:55.500 - 00:39:16.000

And I felt a good flier, but that happened. And then he was dismissed and I was confined to base, although I had had nothing to do with his flying and where he was. I was confined to base until my mother came up to see it.

00:39:17.220 - 00:39:41.340

My mother and Millie's mother were both from Austin, and they came up probably a Sunday to see us up there. And Mother found that I couldn't go off the base. Well, my mother, I never knew her to be very pushy or forward, but she marched over to

00:39:41.340 - 00:40:11.920

the Major Urban's office, the CO of the thing, and she got us released from our—she got me released from my confinement there for that day. And strangely enough, she went home from that afternoon. We spent the afternoon in Sweetwater and all, you know.

00:40:12.640 - 00:40:48.720

She went home from that afternoon and wrote Major Urban and said that she thought I had probably taken care of any penalties that might be on me and that she thought he should consider releasing me and that if he didn't think he could, she would have to write to her daughter's father, Colonel McBride.

00:40:49.960 - 00:41:12.300

Well I think that had something to do with it. Anyway, that's what she wrote to Major Urban, I think it was. So then I was released to go into town and everything else. But before that, I was going to find the base.

00:41:12.820 - 00:41:28.240

But I really had no part in this shaving of the trees that this fellow had done. But he was dismissed. You may have known him. I don't know.

00:41:29.830 - 00:41:43.760

I forget his name. What kind of airplane? Were you in the Stearman when that happened? I do not know.

00:41:44.600 - 00:42:05.540

I rather think it was in BTs, because I do not think he was training. The instructor, I don't think he was training in the beginning, but I'm not really sure on that. Tell us about instrument training.

00:42:06.420 - 00:42:26.700

Instrument training? Well, I liked instrument training, but there were some gals that were a little concerned. Well I think it was probably a matter of—oh, what's the word I want to use? Claustrophobia.

00:42:30.860 - 00:42:47.820

But that didn't bother me. So I liked the instrument training. How about your uniforms? Our uniforms were—I guess we got those uniforms already made up there.

00:42:48.420 - 00:43:24.160

I can't remember. Oh, we wore, during training, we wore those zoot suits, which were just Army work clothes. Then when we graduated, I think we were fitted for the uniforms and all. In fact, our class, I think, had the first uniforms that they had started the WAFs with.

00:43:27.700 - 00:43:48.320

Were you friends of any of the WASPs who might have washed out? How did you feel about that? Yes, well, I had gotten to know Bobbie Lee up there. And she's the one I think of first because she was—

00:43:48.320 - 00:44:10.820

she couldn't have been in our bay. No, she wasn't in our bay. But she was the first one I knew because she was from Austin. And then she washed out—actually, I think it was claustrophobia that had gotten her

00:44:11.020 - 00:44:41.500

out. I was very sorry that Bobbie was, because she seemed just the type to be a WASP. But any others that had left, had left it their own desire. I know a few that left, but I did not know them well.

00:44:43.960 - 00:45:02.360

We had gotten to know Bobbie, I guess, because she was from Boston. What did you do for social? I was already married. I was Trudem and did not go out with any men or boys or something.

00:45:03.900 - 00:45:33.300

I do not think that I did much social things. There was that club down in town, in Sweetwater somewhere, that some of them went to. I do not think I ever got there to see. Of course, we were at a bad time winter-wise, and we did not get to enjoy the summer activities

00:45:33.300 - 00:46:03.660

that the later classes had. I forget what your question was now. But my social life was not special. It was just with the gals there. Were you hearing regularly from Al at that time? Yes, I was, but I told my parents not to let him know where I was.

00:46:05.180 - 00:46:28.000

So I wrote my letters as if I was still in Austin. So he didn't know, although he says he knew. He says he figured it out, but some of his family may have told him. I don't know what the truth really is on that.

00:46:28.890 - 00:46:49.040

Were you afraid that he would worry? Yes, I was afraid that he would worry if I told him. Also it was more or less classified military secret because I never told him where Daddy was or anything either.

00:46:50.020 - 00:47:08.340

What were your thoughts on militarization? Did you believe that you would be militarized? I never thought about it much, and it did not matter to me really because I felt that all of us would be out after the war.

00:47:11.480 - 00:47:41.980

I really did not have expectations that we would be militarized. I think it would be nice and I was glad that they did open it up later to a reserve commission or something, but I was not in on that. I was not interested in that because I knew the minute Al came home, I would go where

00:47:42.180 - 00:48:11.000

he was going. And so it was different for the unmarrieds and the marrieds that were there. As far as washouts in your class, do you know what percentage of the class washed out? No, I think I've seen figures and I was surprised because I didn't know them.

00:48:12.720 - 00:48:33.500

And I think that was often the way, too. They just quietly left and we didn't know why they left. I was never worried about Washington. Tell us about the graduations of the different classes.

00:48:33.760 - 00:48:59.300

What would happen when a class would graduate and another class come in? A senior class would graduate. Well, they go off on their orders, which they had received, and they usually had a two weeks, As I recall, a two-weeks leave or such, and then reported.

00:48:59.480 - 00:49:32.340

Because I remember we graduated sometime in May, and it was June 6th, the same date of the occupation or the movement into Normandy and all. And so I think it was about a two-week leave that we had at that time. I'm not real sure, but I came to Austin and waited.

00:49:33.460 - 00:49:58.900

What are your best memories of training? Just getting to know all those people, all those gals. I really enjoyed knowing those people up there, the ones that we were with. What was the worst thing about training?

00:50:00.160 - 00:50:25.940

The worst thing about training? Well, my worst was when I thought I was going to be kicked out of there. So I think if anybody did anything wrong, they must have worried the same way. But of course, if I had been kicked out, my mother was there.

00:50:27.560 - 00:50:52.020

She was a very quiet person, never wrote anybody, but boy, she got busy then. So I would have been very sad to have left. Tell us about the day that you had to meet the board. Yes, I had to meet the board.

00:50:52.280 - 00:51:17.460

We had a captain and a major and probably two captains. Who was in charge? Mrs. Deaton. And well, that was rather humbling to meet the board, although I had done nothing wrong,

00:51:17.640 - 00:51:56.800

but they didn't think so, I guess. They were working on me to get everything out of it, or more. And that's when Mrs. Cargill left, because she was not called in on that hearing. And she was our first establishment representative, and they hadn't called her in, and she—this

00:51:56.820 - 00:52:10.300

is what I heard—she didn't like that, so she quit. But that's nice to think. Maybe she did, maybe she didn't. Did you go into a room and have to sit?

00:52:10.820 - 00:52:38.540

I went into a room, had to sit with our commanding officer, who was I think urban at the time, and our captain military, Mrs. Deaton, and probably another military man, I don't know for sure. I didn't remember too much about it.

00:52:39.260 - 00:53:04.660

But they worked me over, and I felt pretty bad because I really had not anything to do with the accident. But I think they were trying to get me to say that it was part of my decision and all like that.

00:53:04.660 - 00:53:18.560

So when you left the room that day, what did you think? Did you know what was going to happen to you? No, I did not know. I was not really thinking about it much.

00:53:20.520 - 00:53:49.860

It was when my mother heard and came up and wanted me to go in town with her that she found out I was confined. the one that wrote Major Urban and threatened to write Colonel McBride about it, but I doubt he was particularly concerned, but he released me right away.

00:53:50.400 - 00:54:18.580

How did they notify you that you were not going to be washed out but that you were going to be confined? Yes, there was a meeting over, I guess, in Irvin's office with Mrs. Deaton, our captain military, a regular Army captain.

00:54:20.100 - 00:54:44.960

If there's anybody else there, I don't remember, but I remember that's what Mrs. Miss Cargill was so upset about that they hadn't asked her to come in on it too because she was our class establishment officer. Well I just accepted it until my mother came up and decided she wasn't going to accept

00:54:45.040 - 00:55:04.680

it. And while you were there, before you graduated, did something tragic happen? Could you tell us about that? The tragic thing was the mid-air collision between Mary Houston and—I forget the name

00:55:04.740 - 00:55:24.180

of the gal. It was from a lower class, and why I want to say Erickson, I don't know whether it was that or not. Anyway, yes, that was hard, and I was supposed to pick somebody to go back with her body.

00:55:25.040 - 00:55:46.560

Well, it so happened that Mickey Carmichael was in our bay at that time. She had washed out of the class ahead of us. Well, she hadn't washed out, she had just been—maybe she had been sick or something, But anyway, she was put back with our class.

00:55:47.100 - 00:56:08.920

And she didn't have a lot to do right then because it was a repeat of what she had already had. So she volunteered to take Mary Housen's body back to her home. And that was great of her, really, to do that.

00:56:10.040 - 00:56:36.560

And she did. I think that she was more adult acting on that than the rest of us were. As for the other student in the lower class that was in the accident, I don't know what happened on that.

00:56:39.740 - 00:57:09.040

Can you tell us about the day that that happened? Where were you and how did you know about it? >> I really don't know where I was, but I think I was on the flight line and came back in And they had erased her name from the schedule of those flying.

00:57:12.920 - 00:57:37.660

And I guess the buzz got around right away. The squadron commander, then it was your job to find someone to accompany her body? Yes, right. Fortunately, Mickey Carmichael not only had the time, she had the money too to make the

00:57:37.720 - 00:58:05.620

trip. I do not know whether anybody furnished her with any money later or not, but I know right then she had the money to do it and volunteered to do it, which was great. How did you feel when you knew that your class would be graduating, and how did that happen?

00:58:06.300 - 00:58:37.800

What happened when you graduated, as far as ceremony or what did they do? Well, I think it was the regular ceremony that they had. Well, they marched, the other classes marched while the graduating class reviewed them. And then there was something over at the gym, but I can't remember a lot about that now.

00:58:38.820 - 00:59:02.300

Can you tell us about getting your orders? Where you were assigned? was assigned to Love Field in Dallas, and I don't know when we—that, of course, would satisfy me, so I don't remember getting upset about it or anything like that or even

00:59:02.740 - 00:59:22.260

questioning it. And I was glad to have orders to Love Field. It was just ferrying, but that was where the Ferry Command was. Were there others in that class assigned with you?

00:59:25.840 - 00:59:52.200

One I can remember is Diffen. I can't remember any others. There may well have been, or maybe some from the other half of our class, you know, how we were divided by name and numerically.

00:59:53.360 - 01:00:15.040

What do you remember about your instructors, your civilian instructors and your Army flight check instructors? David Lamb was my primary instructor. I hated him because he bulged out all the time and was really rough on me.

01:00:16.820 - 01:00:54.360

However, I got to like him later. And then the one I liked was the one that was piloting when we crashed the trees. And so he was dismissed, and his name was—I forget his name. And then I had – well, first of all it was Lamb, then this one, and then I had – I

01:00:54.460 - 01:01:06.900

don't know who else I had, but I mean I can't remember the names. So – Tell me about the Army check pilots. What was that all about?

01:01:08.600 - 01:02:01.400

The Army came in and they had to check you out finally to be advanced. They were the Army officers. There was one on the board when I had been in that accident with—I'll remember his name someday—first name began with C. Anyway, the Army pilots had—I want to say sponsored,

01:02:01.560 - 01:02:37.720

that's not the word I want to use. They went with us to all our, when we went on long trips to somewhere else like I remember, one had gone with us to Georgia. And I never had any trouble with those. Do you remember what would happen when the first girl would solo?

01:02:38.320 - 01:02:59.280

Is there something special about it? Yes, the first girl would throw them in the wishing well. And so I don't really remember who it was in our class. What was this?

01:02:59.440 - 01:03:12.080

Was it you perhaps? No, I bet it was Millie. She'd have been first in line for that. Describe the wishing well.

01:03:13.660 - 01:03:43.780

The wishing well was just a round circle with water and it wasn't very deep. It was over near Mrs. Deaton's quarters, but a little west of that. Each class, I think, was the first one that did something, they'd throw them in the washing room.

01:03:44.820 - 01:04:04.960

As a squadron commander, tell me what your duties were. As a trainee? That's the squadron commander. What did you do? I don't think I did anything special except in part what I had been told to tell the class.

01:04:06.660 - 01:04:33.720

And then of course in parades I had the position of leading our class. That was about it. I guess getting information to our class, different things, because certainly the women, the establishment officers did not go around and tell everybody.

01:04:40.000 - 01:04:57.820

Of course, we did not tell everybody about what we were doing either. I don't know that you were in on the midnight poker game. I was right in the middle of it. Tell us about that poker game.

01:04:59.160 - 01:05:21.760

Well, it was New Year's Eve and we were up and playing poker in the latrine between two bays. It was old Bristol, Miss Bristol, I forgot her first name. She was coming around bed checking.

01:05:23.140 - 01:05:51.000

Well, she had gone through the other bay of ours that also used our latrine. So she had found that all empty. She came in through the latrine bathroom, and there we all were playing poker on the floor.

01:05:51.500 - 01:06:13.760

And of course, some had some money out there, and we said, "Oh, we're just using that as chips." So the ones in the next bay, I included, went into our bays and got in bed. Well she did not know us.

01:06:14.940 - 01:06:43.140

She had only gotten the count on the first bay she had gone through. And so she did not really get the names of the second bay. And I remember Bobby Lee came and hid under my bed, because I was a bad drawing. So that was our Escapade on New Year's Eve.

01:06:48.120 - 01:06:52.900

That's great! I— Bristol. Yeah.

01:06:53.200 - 01:06:58.520

Oh, she was— She was mean. She was terrible. Yeah, she was strict.

01:06:59.620 - 01:07:07.460

Oh. Oh. Oh, it's okay. Okay, let's go on, Kay.

01:07:07.560 - 01:07:32.520

When you got your orders, where did you first go? Did you come to Austin and take us from Austin, then, up to Boston? When we got our orders, we had two weeks of vacation, leave time. So I came down to Austin, and then I was supposed to report to Love Field.

01:07:33.880 - 01:07:55.980

And I don't know how I was chosen for Love Field, but I had it as one of my—I think I probably had it as my first choice. Anyway, two weeks and I went to Love Field. Now what else did we want to know about that?

01:08:00.980 - 01:08:17.180

I reported to the operations officer at Love Field, and they would give me assignments just like they did the men. You know, the minute you got in, if you got in before midnight,

01:08:18.070 - 01:08:28.940

you had to take a next-day assignment. If you got in after midnight, you could have the next day off. Well, that sort of encouraged

01:08:29.820 - 01:08:40.560

a lot of diddling along the way. [laughs] And I remember I'd go out to California something, a plane out there delivered.

01:08:41.500 - 01:09:05.520

And my dad was stationed at Santa Monica, and he would have a driver come get me from wherever I came in there. I don't know exactly. And I remember Daddy getting upset when they told him he was away on a trip or something,

01:09:05.540 - 01:09:19.280

And they told him I had been in there, and I mean I had come in, but he said, "And you picked her up and brought her over here?" No. He was mad at them for not taking care of his daughter.

01:09:24.920 - 01:09:52.340

But usually it was out that way that I delivered planes, although delivered some—it must Because Indiana, Pennsylvania, Illinois—I remember some to Wisconsin—you know, all around. Were these planes going to different bases?

01:09:52.920 - 01:10:17.820

Yes, they were going to different bases. I don't—well, some of them that went up to Wisconsin were being trashed or whatever you want to call them. They were not fit for duty anymore and they were taken back to wherever they were gathering

01:10:17.940 - 01:10:35.460

them all. And I think that was a lot of Wisconsin and Indianas that they did that. Tell me, when you got orders to take an airplane from Love Field to another field, what did you do?

01:10:35.640 - 01:10:54.460

What did you wear? What did you take with you? How did you get back once you delivered? Like when I was, yeah, we wore regular uniforms and we didn't usually wear the coveralls,

01:10:55.500 - 01:11:17.380

but we wore, I guess we'd have to call them dress uniforms. And then we'd go to a base and deliver it to the, go to see whoever officer was supposed to receive them and sign them in. Then we'd go out on the road and wait for the bus.

01:11:18.540 - 01:11:37.800

And we'd take the bus into the nearest town. And then if there wasn't an airport there, we'd take the train to the airport, and then we'd go back to Love Field. And you know, in those days, we had what they called TRs,

01:11:38.300 - 01:12:03.220

transportation requests. And that's all we—we didn't have to worry about having the money for this because we had these TRs that were all made out, and we would just give the person furnishing the transportation one of those, and they filled them out and submitted it where I don't know,

01:12:03.490 - 01:12:33.000

you know. But that was how they took care of paying for all of our transportation when we were in—when we were ferrying. We could bump all but the president in getting back to our duty station when we were delivering.

01:12:34.320 - 01:13:02.860

As far as parachutes, yeah, we carried our own parachutes because I remember we had the B-4 bag and the parachute and we were loaded when we'd go to all these places. What did you take in the B-4 bag? In the B-4 bag?

01:13:04.740 - 01:13:26.680

Oh I always had some civilian clothes of some kind in case I needed them. I don't think I ever really needed them or used them, but just changes of clothes. On most of your ferrying trips, were other WASPs with you, were male pilots with you? How did that work?

01:13:28.180 - 01:13:56.960

I'd say most of my ferrying trips were alone. And there may have been, on some of them, other people going to the same place, but We each filed our own flight plan and went separately to these places. We didn't try to connect up with the others.

01:13:59.880 - 01:14:22.240

Tell us about if you got to a base en route to your destination and the weather closed in, what would happen? If the weather closed in, we just stayed at that base. If there wasn't quarters on the base, well, we went into the town and stayed in.

01:14:22.560 - 01:15:02.020

I can't remember that I had much trouble with weather because we graduated in May, reported June 6th, and we were out December 20th, was it, of that year, it seems to me. Was there one particular ferrying mission that stands out in your mind? I can't remember any particular one.

01:15:03.100 - 01:15:14.380

Oh, one that pleased my grandmother. I flew over to her house and she and her friends were all out there waiting for me and waving. That's all. I had called her ahead to tell her I'd be over there.

01:15:17.240 - 01:16:02.300

But in Chicago Heights, Illinois, she was real pleased to show off to her friends. Anyway, your original question, and I cannot remember. I think it was at Selma, Alabama. I was through there on a delivery trip and I was over at the club night when all the

01:16:02.380 - 01:16:31.040

lights went out and I was playing the slot machines. And the slot machine emptied out for me and that was rather fun. But that's where we always went at night, you know, at a base. We always went to the club to eat, unless it were someplace where they didn't have a

01:16:31.080 - 01:16:46.660

club. Because I can remember staying on base most of the time everywhere we were. And at your home station at Love Field, where did you stay? We had a long barracks.

01:16:46.760 - 01:17:08.920

In fact, I think we may have had two, because there were a lot of WASPs stationed at Love Field that worked out of there. And we'd go—well, like I had an assignment up to Wichita, Kansas, to pick up a new plane And then delivered somewhere.

01:17:11.520 - 01:17:31.140

There were a lot of WASPs at Love Field. Tell me about the organization of WASPs at Love Field and about the WAFs who were stationed and what was your relationship with them and how did that work? You know, I don't remember any relationship with the WAFs.

01:17:33.080 - 01:18:02.760

They probably were in the same barracks with us, but I can't really remember that they were. We had the permanent rooms in the building where I stayed. Dorothy Britt and I had adjoining rooms, so we made one into a sort of a living room,

01:18:02.840 - 01:18:28.600

the other into a bedroom for the two of us. There were a bunch of rooms in that barracks type of building. Who was your boss? Our boss at Love Field, you know, I can't remember.

01:18:28.630 - 01:18:54.500

We must have had a boss. It was enough for classmen, but we would report to the operations officer for assignments. And then we had to go. If there were a big group of us going to the same place, they'd fly a plane with us up

01:18:54.540 - 01:19:13.380

there. There were just a couple why we would go on our own with those TRs. How do you feel that the male pilots, were they receptive to the wash crew flying the ferry missions?

01:19:14.020 - 01:19:29.260

I think the male pilots were. I do not think that the male mechanics were. That is the most trouble I had. These fellows were just mechanics on the planes.

01:19:29.480 - 01:19:50.020

They would make some remarks as you would come out to a plane. I think I am saying that mainly because there was one that always bothered me at Bryan when I would come out, a smart aleck from New York City. And anyway.

01:19:51.190 - 01:20:02.560

Did he just seem to resent that you were the pilot? He may have. I don't know, really. But he... I didn't feel much...

01:20:03.100 - 01:20:18.260

I didn't feel resentment from any of the officers. And... What was happening as far as the war was concerned while you were at Love? What was happening to Al?

01:20:20.260 - 01:20:35.280

Well, I was keeping up with Al through mom who would get my letters from him, but he couldn't write very often, nor could I correspond with him very often by their by their rules of

01:20:36.540 - 01:21:00.020

delivery and all that stuff, but I knew that Al was going to be a prisoner until the war was over. So it wasn't holding me back from anything. Were you stationed at Love Field for the entire time until you were deactivated?

01:21:00.560 - 01:21:19.120

Yes, I was. I went from leave after Sweetwater. I went to Love Field. In fact, I checked in at Love Field on June 6th, was the invasion of— Kelly: D-Day.

01:21:19.460 - 01:21:50.600

Martinez: Yeah. I remember hearing that on the elevator going down, somebody was talking about it, but I I hadn't known it until then, and it was that same day or the day before. That really made you feel good, but made you feel like we were getting somewhere.

01:21:53.220 - 01:22:24.760

But as far as Al and my relationship, that did not change things for him. He was in Japan as a prisoner. When did you first hear that the WASP would be deactivated, and what were your reactions? Well you know I think I first heard it in about September of whatever year that was.

01:22:24.860 - 01:22:51.760

Was it '43? '44. And I was at Orlando, Florida, taking that officer's course. And I had orders to Tyndall Air Force Base in Florida.

01:22:52.800 - 01:23:05.600

When that came out and they canceled all orders, you would go back to your base and stay there until you finished. So that was how I was affected.

01:23:06.340 - 01:23:20.200

- Tell us about Orlando. When did you get orders to go to Orlando and tell us what that course was all about? - I'm trying to think when I went to Orlando,

01:23:21.080 - 01:23:50.320

but it was summer of 1940. Four, I guess, huh? And it was an officer training course, and so you had classes. It was pretty nice, though, because you had swimming there, and some other gals and I

01:23:50.420 - 01:24:10.340

would rent a car. It's strange to me now that they had car rentals in the war when you had so little gas and You know, home use of cars. But we'd rent a car and we'd go all around to different places in Florida on the weekends.

01:24:12.880 - 01:24:46.660

So I enjoyed it there, but there wasn't anything really special. You sat in on these classes about being officers, I guess it was. I can't remember too much of it, but I remember also having to take—what is it? Morse code, and pick out Morse code on the things.

01:24:46.820 - 01:25:00.080

And that I think was just not right for me. I hated it, the Morse Code thing. You had also had that training, right? The Morse Code?

01:25:00.520 - 01:25:24.320

Yes, uh-huh, right. And the purpose of this officer's training was what? So that we'd be commissioned officers. And I think they were looking forward to putting them in regular military status like the women

01:25:24.820 - 01:25:35.960

WACs were. And who taught these courses? At Orlando? Gee, I don't know.

01:25:37.600 - 01:26:07.140

How long did you stay at Orlando? I wasn't there too long, probably a month or so. And then because the WASPs had been designated to go out, I had to return to Bryan Field in College Station or Bryan, Texas.

01:26:08.340 - 01:26:36.700

That was where I had been assigned. I went from—well, I was at Love Field too. I'm getting confused as to where I was when. But I think I was at Bryan after Love Field, after I returned.

01:26:39.700 - 01:26:48.420

That had been a choice of mine. Were you at Bryan then when the wasps were deactivated? Is that where you were? Yes, I think so.

01:26:48.860 - 01:27:05.760

What did you fly at Bryan? What kind of missions? Well, that was instrument flying school. Tell us about teaching cadets how to fly on instruments.

01:27:09.940 - 01:27:41.260

Actually you were not teaching cadets so much as you were officers that were returning from Europe and other places. See this was the end of the war practically, and it's fall of '44. Actually I was in the engineering section, and we would check the planes and go up in

01:27:41.320 - 01:28:05.600

them and check them out to make sure they had been repaired. Were there other WASPs there that you knew? I think the only one I knew was Diffen, and she did not stay very long because she had gotten pregnant.

01:28:07.260 - 01:28:22.720

At Bryan, what kind of quarters did you stay? We stayed in the nurses' quarters. Kelly: And how receptive were they? Mildred: I think they were very receptive because we never had any trouble with them.

01:28:23.110 - 01:28:46.660

We stayed with nurses at Love Field, too. They were in those same type of quarters. Of course, wherever you were living or overnighting, you'd go to the officers club and spend most of your time there.

01:28:47.620 - 01:29:14.540

And that's where you always went to eat. Kelly: So when you heard about the deactivation, what happened at your base? Well, I guess we all just went our own way on the date we were supposed to leave. And I can't remember anything particularly that was special about it.

01:29:14.640 - 01:29:32.720

I was so close to home that that didn't make any difference. Part of the time while I was there, I had the car from home. And my mother had it and she'd let me use it for a week or two and she'd go without. But that was—

01:29:35.160 - 01:29:55.260

When you were deactivated at Bryan, was there any kind of celebration? Or how did you get from Bryan back to Austin? Well, I can't remember any celebration. As far as getting back to Austin from Bryan, that was probably no trouble.

01:29:55.440 - 01:30:10.580

I'd probably been home and taken the car back or my sister drove up with the car or something like that. I can't remember that being a problem. I think there was only one time that I took a bus from Bryan to Austin.

01:30:11.060 - 01:30:38.080

Otherwise it was family that took care of me. What is it, about a hundred miles from here to Bryan, if that far. Do you remember how you felt when you were being deactivated? I do not remember that I felt anything particularly.

01:30:38.320 - 01:31:05.380

It was just another thing in our lives during the war. As you look back at the WASP, what did you feel is the WASP's legacy? The fact of using women in the service, in the flying service, and I think that that was very important.

01:31:06.800 - 01:31:34.580

And I think it was one of the things, plus the WACs, that established women in the service. And part of what proved to them that women could serve as well as the men could. I'm not saying they could do everything the man could, but they could also do their part within their assignments.

01:31:36.320 - 01:32:04.240

What was your opinion of Ms. Cochran? Jackie Cochran I think was probably good for the job but I think an opportunist too. I can't help but believe that it was a political appointment, as we know those to be so often.

01:32:06.780 - 01:32:32.740

But she had her qualifications, and I think she did as much as she could for the WASPs. I never really got to talk to her. You know, those meetings she would have in the dining hall when she'd come in, but that was about it.

01:32:37.220 - 01:32:51.900

Once you came back to Austin, tell me what happened then. What was your life like? Did you get a job or what did you do when you came back? Well, when we came back from Austin, yes, I got a job with the legislature.

01:32:54.040 - 01:33:17.960

And Millie also got a job with the legislature. And then I was in that. Somehow I went to the university. Now I'm wondering when, because I was at the university when the news came out that the

01:33:18.030 - 01:33:44.500

war was ended. I was in an engineering drawing class and my sister came over to let me know. They had just declared whatever it was they declared for the war to be over, there was going to be a peace treaty or such.

01:33:46.200 - 01:34:17.020

But I'm trying to think where I went directly after the WASP, but I think it was in that job in the legislature. That legislature was only open in session until about June of each year. And so then I had gone from that to take courses at the university, and architectural courses

01:34:17.300 - 01:34:44.640

and engineering courses. And then how long was it before Al came home? Was a lot longer than I expected because I quit everything and then sat at home and waited. But he got home the end of October of '45, must have been '45.

01:34:53.080 - 01:35:12.340

I met him out in California at the boat. He did not expect it. He had called my mother somehow. Well, I guess I did not meet him at the boat.

01:35:14.300 - 01:35:29.720

Yes, I did. And mother said that I was on my way out there. He did not know that I had been informed that he was coming in. So that was a pleasant surprise for him.

01:35:29.860 - 01:35:56.900

How were you informed? By a telegram from the Army that they were releasing him. Somehow they told me he would be back on a certain day at a certain time, and then I was disappointed because their time was later than he actually got in and I was out there

01:35:56.820 - 01:36:04.880

and I wanted to greet him at the dock. How did you get there? How did I get there? I flew.

01:36:07.700 - 01:36:25.460

Not private planes, but public. I flew from Austin to San Antonio. I do not remember what airlines, but I do remember getting that telegram from Mother on the airline, I think in El Paso, that Al had called and was already in.

01:36:26.260 - 01:36:59.580

So I went on and met him in San Francisco. I guess we had a second honeymoon in a way, although we were visiting his parents while we were out there, his mother and brother and all. And then we came home here to Austin and I remember having New Year's Eve here in Austin.

01:37:00.840 - 01:37:35.040

And then he was sent to Fort Leavenworth to school and I accompanied him up there and got a room in town, you know, that thing. And from there he was ordered to West Point to instruct. So I think he just had probably two weeks off between—that's pretty much the way

01:37:35.040 - 01:38:06.120

we got to West Point. He had graduated from there and somebody had recommended him for a job up there. We lived on the post in an officer's quarters. He wasn't so high ranking, but we made it on the post.

01:38:08.920 - 01:38:52.520

He instructed in MT&G, military topography and graphics. So we were there then from '45, I guess, until '49, when he was assigned to College Station to get—he already had his master's degree, but I guess it was to get his doctorate or something in engineering may be there.

01:38:53.480 - 01:39:11.900

I don't really know. So you both came to College Station and where did you live there? We lived actually in Bryan. You don't even know when you go from one to the other there.

01:39:14.160 - 01:39:42.100

But we were right about on the border with College Station. We were just there, I have to go back and think when we reported to West Point, we were just there a year I think. He was getting something in engineering there.

01:39:43.120 - 01:40:06.680

And then we went back to West Point for his assignment as an instructor at West Point. Kelly: Okay, so from College Station you went back to West Point? Mildred: Yes, that's the first I'd been to West Point. I mean, he of course had graduated from there, but then it was first assignment there.

01:40:09.570 - 01:40:33.700

Kelly: Okay, okay. Now you're at West Point and your husband is an instructor at West Point. What happened then? We stayed at West Point from '46, I guess, until '49.

01:40:34.880 - 01:41:09.660

And then he was sent to College Station Bryan for special engineering training, because He had originally been a costutier, but he had transferred into engineers. And so then he went to school. I'm getting confused.

01:41:09.880 - 01:41:43.980

It's where we were when. We were then at Bryan while he took that extra work for his degree, but then he did it after he retired here in Austin. So we left in Bryan.

01:42:01.600 - 01:42:39.700

No, he got that after he came back home, but he got his master's. He had a master's when he was in Washington, and then I think that was after he was at Bryan. Bryan was in engineering, and it was master's probably, because he had Dr. Buchanan, I remember

01:42:39.960 - 01:42:57.620

particularly. Anyway, I think it was soil mechanics and different things like that that they had at Bryan. He was there for a year, and actually it was a convenient year for us because our daughter

01:42:58.620 - 01:43:39.180

Sue was expected and she was born the 31st of July. So meanwhile we had had John up at West Point in '47 and then Sue in '49. So I was down at Fort Sam, Sue was born at Fort Sam, and Fort Sam, Houston. Then I joined, my family was here in Austin, and I joined, I came here with the family

01:43:39.340 - 01:44:13.400

for a couple of months with the new baby and they had taken care of the older one. So I joined him at—he found his place in Bryan, and I joined him up there probably a couple of months later. And he was taking engineering, I guess, and soil mechanics, I know, because that was Dr.

01:44:13.680 - 01:44:20.720

Buchanan. You went from Bryan, you had these two little children with you. Where did you go? What was your next station?

01:44:26.780 - 01:44:47.840

I think it was Washington, D.C. I have to think back to the years, too. We went from Bryan either to West Point. Kelly: When you were at Washington, was he in the Pentagon?

01:44:48.540 - 01:45:23.680

Miller: Yes, he was at the Pentagon. And he also had—I don't even know what I was going to say first. He was transferred to Washington and I do not even know what he was transferred from. When you were in Washington with these two little children, what did you do to take care

01:45:23.680 - 01:45:36.660

of those children? I stayed home. Where were you living? We were living in Falls Church at first and then the second tour he had in Washington,

01:45:36.660 - 01:45:51.040

We lived out in Klain, both in Virginia. He had two tours in Washington. Meanwhile— Is that where the children went to school?

01:45:52.080 - 01:46:27.480

Yes, pretty much. Then there was an assignment, he went to school at Carlisle, Pennsylvania, the Army school. I guess we went, no, I think he went from there overseas again, you know, and was in Korea.

01:46:29.900 - 01:46:52.300

What did you do with those two little children while he was in Korea? I came home to Austin. I feel sure. Well, I can't really remember, but I think—I can't remember the years yet, you know, what

01:46:52.360 - 01:47:16.800

years where, and it gets confusing to me. When you came back to Austin, did you live with your family? Yes, yes, I did. And then when Al returned, he was on orders to West Point as an instructor.

01:47:18.980 - 01:47:44.900

So I went with him up—well, first he went to Fort Leavenworth for a schooling there, And then I went with him when he went from there to West Point to instruct. And so we lived up there several years. Kelly: When did Al Foney retire?

01:47:45.740 - 01:48:02.680

He retired in 1968 because he went on the thirty-year retirement and he had graduated from West Point in '38. So that's thirty years, isn't it? Sixty-eight.

01:48:04.320 - 01:48:15.520

Yeah. When the children were in high school and once they got out of high school, what did you do with your time? I haven't done much with my time, I'm ashamed to say.

01:48:15.520 - 01:48:30.080

Did you play bridge? Did you do a lot with the officers' wives? Bridge has always been one of my favorite things to do vocationally. I mean, or not vocationally.

01:48:31.920 - 01:48:48.820

Anyway, uh— Have you done volunteer work? Well, somewhat, but not much. we've never been anyplace long enough to really get into that a lot.

01:48:52.900 - 01:49:28.200

I'm trying to think where I last was when relating all this. We went from West Point. He had been at Seattle Engineer District sometime in there, and then I think almost his last assignment was as district engineer in St. Louis.

01:49:29.740 - 01:49:52.080

So we moved to these various places, and I really cannot think exactly where we were when he retired, but I think it was back in Washington, because I remember people giving us a retirement party. So he must have been back at the Pentagon.

01:49:52.080 - 01:50:11.100

Kelly: When the Air Force put out its notification that they were graduating ten women, first women to fly military aircraft, what was your reaction to that? Mildred: I remember I was visiting my aunt and uncle in Phoenix when that came out in the paper.

01:50:11.940 - 01:50:33.900

And I said, "Oh, they're full of—they don't know what they're talking about." I figured that we were the first women to fly. But of course, we go back to World War I and we had women flying then. So who were the first women to fly in the service?

01:50:34.480 - 01:50:59.140

That is your point of view, I guess, or whatever. When the WASP decided to try to go for a veteran status, did you have any part in that? No, I did not because I was not concerned. I knew Al was in the military and would stay for his thirty years at least.

01:51:02.040 - 01:51:24.840

So I really didn't pay much attention to it. Maybe it was because where we were, I forget. now. And it really didn't worry me on that score. I'm sure some gals it did because that was their job. I don't blame them, but—

01:51:25.760 - 01:51:52.000

Since that time, have you stayed active with the other WASPs as far as their conventions and things that they do? I've gone to some of the conventions, but not a lot. There's nothing really organized here for WASPs.

01:51:53.700 - 01:52:16.720

Well, you don't have to call them ex-WASPs, because they're the only WASPs. Can you tell us about your daughter and your son, what they're doing now, and about your grandchildren? Our son was born at West Point and grew up with us wherever we were.

01:52:16.880 - 01:52:56.360

The daughter was born at Fort Sam Houston, but it was when Al was stationed at Bryan. They've moved around with us, of course, and I don't know what else to say about them. They've adjusted very fine because I remember going back to Falls Church with John to see some of his old playmates and I said, "I'm sorry, John, that you didn't get to stay here

01:52:57.960 - 01:53:12.560

and have those friends all these years." He said, "Oh," he says, "I feel sorry for them," he said, "because I got to move around and they didn't." So that settled my fears as far as that was concerned.

01:53:13.600 - 01:53:34.980

And they, I guess, grew up with it and were adjusted to it all right. Where are your children now? Well I have a daughter here and my son is in Little Rock. Now John, our son, is the older by twenty months I think.

01:53:36.820 - 01:54:05.900

He is a Presbyterian minister in Little Rock. And our daughter is here and is an attorney and also, I don't know whether it would, well She's a judge in the Austin courts. Now, I don't know whether to call her,

01:54:06.580 - 01:54:21.220

she's not a county judge. I don't know whether to call her a state judge or you know what, but that's what she does. - Who tells you about your grandchildren?

01:54:21.840 - 01:54:51.260

- Our grandchildren. Our John has three boys, and two of them are in college, in Fayetteville, Arkansas, and the other is younger and still in high school. Our daughter has two children, an older boy and a younger girl, and the older boy is in

01:54:51.360 - 01:55:06.980

college and the younger girl is a senior in high school. So they're all pretty well up there now. Do any of your offspring apply? No, none of them do, nor my daughter or anybody.

01:55:07.120 - 01:55:24.040

I think her husband is now taking flying lessons, so we may end up with it. I don't know. As your children were growing up, did they know what their mother had done? No, there was never much about it.

01:55:28.140 - 01:55:53.900

Well, actually, I don't think children are so enthralled with what you do anyway. They grew up in different places. They enjoyed their life. Is there anything that you would like to say to your children about what you did or about

01:55:54.060 - 01:56:19.180

your life as an Army wife? Anything that you would like them to know? Well, I think they should do what they want to in their life. not to be afraid to try different things and not to hold themselves back on it.

01:56:19.780 - 01:56:43.520

I think both of them have done what they wanted to do. John decided to be a minister and Sue was, well, she's a judge in the courts here and completed a law degree. John completed—what kind of degree was his?

01:56:44.500 - 01:57:03.840

But I know it was more than college. He is a Doctor of Divinity. That's right. And so they're happy in what they're doing, and that's the way we'd want it.

01:57:04.860 - 01:57:51.840

Do you, as an ex-WASP and as an ex-Army officer's wife, have any message for future generations? I think anything I'd advise people to do is do what they feel they can and do a little more than what they can and that things aren't as hard as they always seem. That too many people cut themselves short just because they worry about not being able

01:57:51.840 - 01:58:13.720

to do it. I think we should try all these various things. I'm proud of the WASPs in World War II. I think the women in the Army, really, well, all of them, the WAVES in the Army.

01:58:15.080 - 01:58:39.580

Between the WAVES and the Army, I would have picked the WAVES, but I got to pick the WASP because I let the others go by. I had an interview already set when I got the mumps and had to stay home. So I did not get my interview with the WAVES.

01:58:41.080 - 01:58:54.680

Anyway. I am proud you were my squadron commander. Oh, thank you. Can I ask you about the women's training, the organization you were talking about during

01:58:54.700 - 01:59:01.480

World War II, before the WAAGs? The SAC? Oh, yes, women's defense corps. What was that?

01:59:02.260 - 01:59:39.080

Yes, but it was all working women as far as I knew. And the classes were at night or maybe on Saturdays, but we had the various things in the classes like the pistol shooting, the firefighting, the—I can't think of them all. But they covered a lot in air raid wardens and it was a state because I worked at that

01:59:39.180 - 02:00:00.020

time for the Adjutant General here in the Capitol. And that program was run through the Adjutant General's office in a way. Were you doing things, taking the place of men who had gone? Not really.

02:00:00.140 - 02:00:31.660

I think we were training more for places, things to do if the men were gone, because Ours was all training, like going out for the—I keep saying firefighting because that's the easiest one to remember at the moment—but pistol shooting. I can't think of them all.

02:00:34.240 - 02:00:48.960

What's your favorite word? My favorite word? You can, yeah. What's your least favorite word?

02:00:50.540 - 02:01:06.260

No. What excites you, makes you excited about something, turns you on? Well I can't think of anything particularly. I'm a pretty lazy person.

02:01:17.440 - 02:01:42.540

Well I was trying to join the WACs when I missed my interview for that. And then I got to join the WACs. To get into it somehow, sure. And I was already working down in the Adjutant General's office as the secretary for the

02:01:42.560 - 02:02:05.260

judge advocate. And on the side, I was going to the classes and all for the firefighting, I guess, and different things they did. I have one more question.

02:02:07.180 - 02:02:46.680

We believe heaven exists. When you get there, what do you want God to say to you? Well I think God is in everybody's minds. I guess I'd want him to say you did a good job, but I think I'm not too concerned.

02:02:51.240 - 02:02:58.860

He did a good job. Oh, thank you. He did a good job. With that preacher's son, I think he'd be real proud.

02:03:03.380 - 02:03:24.500

No, that's it. Now I want to give you the opportunity to say anything you'd like to say. Well, there really isn't anything I'd like to say, but I think it's great that you all are making a record of these various opinions of their service.

02:03:28.980 - 02:04:22.880

We appreciate it. Yn ystod y 15 munud, ar y rhan fwyaf o'r rhain, yng nghanol y gyn >> It's been wonderful. I told her it's been a history lesson for me.

02:04:23.690 - 02:04:37.980

I found out things in our book it says that she was stationed at the same base where I was stationed. I knew she wasn't there, but I found out today why her name is there. Because she had orders to go, and then we were dispatched.

02:04:37.980 - 02:04:43.420

Is this from North Texas? No, no. This is from Baylor University. Baylor? Yes.

02:04:43.560 - 02:04:53.480

Well, I'll tell you what, now that you ask it, this fellow Jonathan Brown here, he had me scheduled for somebody from North Texas to come down here. And they got letters.

02:04:54.500 - 02:05:02.560

This was months and months ago. They never showed up. I never heard anything from them. That's the way it goes. No one's really interested in it.

02:05:03.160 - 02:05:11.660

Listen, we're interested. They don't have to come now. We've got it. This is going to be, Al, eventually this is going to go into the computerized classrooms

02:05:11.880 - 02:05:17.020

for children. Listen, I'd love to come back and talk to Al. You would? Absolutely.

02:05:19.760 - 02:05:26.940

You're a big chunk of military history is what you are. I mean, you're West Point.

02:05:27.500 - 02:05:34.580

You know, that's, you've got to, you've got to. - Well, can we come back sometime? - Well, if you tell me if you're really serious. - Absolutely.

02:05:35.120 - 02:05:41.380

- All right, but everyone, tell them that, but if they're really, come down to the-- - Well, see, we're here. - We're here, we're here, we're serious.

02:05:42.460 - 02:05:48.020

- I gotta go give Kay a hug, she's been so good. - Oh, no. (laughing) - We're not that far, we're not that far away, Al.

02:05:48.100 - 02:05:56.580

We're just right up the freeway in Waco, you know? And I would love to come back and get you to talk to us. - I wanted you to know, she was my squadron commander. - Well, that's great.

02:05:56.820 - 02:06:05.680

- Yes. - Yeah. - More of that. - I wanna know how you knew she was a lot. - How do I know?

02:06:05.840 - 02:06:12.460

- How did you know? She said that when you got home, you knew. - Well, I'll tell you one thing, I never figured out that I knew.

02:06:12.640 - 02:06:26.700

It was just mental telepathy, I'm gonna tell you that. I had no clues at all. Except somebody dropped a hint once. I got a hold of an English newspaper in Japan.

02:06:27.610 - 02:06:40.040

They mentioned in there something about the Russian women flying. Russian women flying, it was something about it. And I said, I'll bet you it sounds just like

02:06:40.860 - 02:06:53.380

it would be here. Sometimes she was over there. So I fantasized to the point that I really felt, In fact, I told a lot of my POW colleagues up there,

02:06:53.450 - 02:07:02.480

I said, "You know, I bet you my wife's flying." (laughing) I bet you, and then finally it was not I bet you, then I said, "I know she's flying."

02:07:04.120 - 02:07:15.040

And I was telling a lie, and you don't know how I worried about it. After that, I did say another word, because if I ever survive this, and I'm liberated,

02:07:15.620 - 02:07:26.900

and they ask me, I'm gonna find out that I lied, And that bothered me more than anything. I like to show you the letter I finally got waiting for me after I was liberated.

02:07:27.000 - 02:07:34.620

A bunch of photos. - Of her? - Sitting on a plane with her legs, you know, covered in nylon.

02:07:34.900 - 02:07:40.780

And I said, "Who's that?" You know? (laughing) Who's that?

02:07:41.460 - 02:07:50.960

And finally, you don't know how relieved I was when I found out that while I had lied, It was true. But that is the only--

02:07:51.160 - 02:07:57.460

because she was not supposed to say anything, I understand, after the war. She was in it. It's a secret.

02:07:59.180 - 02:08:08.660

Maybe the Russians were flying. But if the enemy had to find out and say, look, the Russians have millions of people. The United States, and having women flying,

02:08:09.120 - 02:08:21.720

this is a sign of weakness. So what is a sign of strength to the Japanese to have known that they were flying. It was not a strength, it was a matter of weakness

02:08:22.340 - 02:08:35.040

that we were running out of manpower, that kind of manpower. So that's the only way I could figure this. You know, I never did really believe in miracles until I said after--

02:08:35.980 - 02:08:46.940

that is one of the miracles. The other miracle, that's another story. I really feel it was a myth. - Except Chancellor--

02:08:47.340 - 02:09:05.220

- But anyway, I wouldn't mind talking because-- - Oh, I'm not going to take your time. - I have two big sample cases of notes, letters, things on it. But I always have thought, you know, maybe writing something.

02:09:05.360 - 02:09:17.180

But then as time went on, I realized that people were getting away from this. I have no people, none of my people were, were with me, are surviving today.

02:09:19.120 - 02:09:26.600

I can't find anyone that wasn't with me that survived. - I think it might be just you. - Half of my classmates are West Point today. - Yeah.

02:09:27.200 - 02:09:35.820

- So, you know, it's just, I just felt that my time has passed. I think you're doing a great thing in trying to keep us alive.

02:09:36.440 - 02:09:41.860

No one has done that for us, but maybe. No one has done that. - Thank you. - We'll come back.

02:09:42.540 - 02:09:55.560

- I'm telling you, it won't be always a pleasant story, I'm gonna tell you that, because I can't lie. Because if I start lying, my story's gonna change a million times.

02:09:56.940 - 02:10:13.400

But if I stick to the truth, and to what I know, and what I saw, then it's gonna be, I never have to lie. But what's happening in many of these wars, in the interview is that the people are telling war stories.

02:10:13.540 - 02:10:20.220

They're getting expanded. You really can't believe it anymore. You better give them an oath. Put them up in the Bible.

02:10:20.900 - 02:10:29.960

(laughing) Because they're gonna really let you down in fact with exaggeration. How they went up the hill and shot 65 Germans.

02:10:30.560 - 02:10:44.100

I mean, you really have to be careful, but there's more business. She ended up fantasizing a lot. Anyway, that's how I knew she was blind.

02:10:45.080 - 02:10:54.220

It was a kind of a minor miracle. Yeah. It really is. Because she never wrote me about it.

02:10:54.340 - 02:11:03.600

She never-- all her letters were all blacked out and all blinded out. I still have them. I told my dad, I was glad you picked your wedding day.

02:11:03.700 - 02:11:48.320

I did, too. a young woman to have gotten that courage to learn to fly and then to enter this organization. To me, you had millions, 12 million people like me

02:11:48.340 - 02:11:56.340

in the military. That was no, that's no story. - I bet seeing you here had better experiences than I. - But you know, it's just--

02:11:56.340 - 02:12:09.160

- Al, I went to the Philippines on a USO tour and I took a picture of that monument that's there. And I have it, I'll bring it when we come back show it to you. Did you get out to Corregidor? No, we didn't get to Corregidor, but we got to the,

02:12:09.340 - 02:12:33.220

there's a, there's a monument on the, on the big island there. We went to Bacchio. On the 24th of October, they asked me to give up this land program. which I kind of inhaled at that time,

02:12:34.560 - 02:12:46.600

to give a talk on war memorials. You know, there was a wartime cemetery in World War II. I was with the American Veterans Monuments Commission. Oh.

02:12:47.180 - 02:12:53.680

Oh. That's what I thought you meant. Yeah. Like that, and that's what it was.

02:12:54.260 - 02:13:05.240

I wish you'd also talk about the fact that we're running out of anybody to give anybody a funeral because when they go bury veterans now, they don't have enough guys to do a salute.

02:13:06.240 - 02:13:20.620

They're running out of money. They say they're running out of money. Oh, he won't. Well, our--

02:13:22.780 - 02:13:33.660

Well, Al, you're a jewel. I don't know, I just... It's not me, I just... He's been in the wrong places for the wrong time.

02:13:35.860 - 02:13:46.360

And he survived. You know, as you get older, you just realize that everybody goes to war alone. When you go to war, you go there alone.

02:13:46.580 - 02:14:00.060

Because the war does things to each individual. And when he comes back and he survives, The only thing he can talk about, he could talk and should talk about, what did the war do to me?

02:14:01.400 - 02:14:11.380

Not what was happening along this big line. I was no general, you know. I wouldn't know, but I can tell you what happened to me and what I saw. That's about all.

02:14:13.160 - 02:14:27.000

And that is, you know, to make it very blunt, you know, exclusive. When you go to a cemetery, like I did, I saw these graves for three years. That's all I saw in the American Foundation.

02:14:28.320 - 02:14:37.120

Under each one of those crosses, or under the gravestones here, there's a local symphony. There's a whole universe.