00:00:00.000 - 00:00:45.200

I'm Deney Parrish with Wings Across America. We're interviewing Betty Smith. Betty was a WASP in class 43-2. We're in her home in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Today is the 27th of January 2002. The videographer is Nancy Parrish. Okay, Betty, if we'll begin, if you'll tell us your full name and when and where you were born and

00:00:45.200 - 00:01:16.840

then we'll go from there. All right, Deney. I was born in Pine Bluff, Arkansas on December 29th, 1920. And my full name is Elizabeth, no middle initial, Whitlow Smith. Okay, tell me about your mom and dad. Well, my mom and dad met in Columbia, Missouri. He was at the University of Missouri teaching. That was the school he

00:01:16.840 - 00:01:44.980

graduated from. And her mother lived in Missouri. She had been a widow for many, many years. And that's where they met and married. And after that, they had a little home built right next to her mother's home. And I understand it's still there. I have an older brother who's actually been there and taken

00:01:44.980 - 00:02:16.560

pictures of it. And then from there, they moved to Kansas City and to Jefferson City and then down to Pine Bluff, Arkansas where I was born. And when I was three years old, they moved here to Tulsa, Oklahoma. Tell me about your any of your siblings. Okay, I have two older brothers. One is retired and living in

00:02:16.560 - 00:02:41.920

Hilton Head, South Carolina now. And then the other one is also retired and he's living in Seattle, Washington on Mercer Island. That's the same island that Bill Gates lives on. That's a very large home there. And of course, everybody thinks Bill Gates is really something. Those in Seattle, you know, they really like that.

00:02:41.920 - 00:03:13.680

And of course, they like Boeing very much too. When your mom and dad moved to Tulsa, what job did your dad have? He was with the Public Service Company of Oklahoma, the local utility, electric utility company. And he was an engineer. I don't, an electrical engineer. I don't know when, but he became vice president

00:03:13.680 - 00:03:45.960

and Tulsa manager. And then I can't recall the year he retired, but he had been quite civic minded. Was on a lot of boards and was on the school board and he rather liked that position very much. He was just a very community-minded person and a lot of it was in connection with his work being with the utility

00:03:45.960 - 00:04:08.400

company. But he was just naturally that way anyhow. When they came to Tulsa, when you were born, where did they live? Did they live in town? Did you live out of town? Well, no, well they lived in town and I don't remember that place because we moved shortly after, I guess. My brothers remember it, but I was just

00:04:08.400 - 00:04:36.960

three. And I remember the next home on North Tacoma and that's where I went to Pershick School, my elementary school. And I remember those days of just being able to go around the neighborhood without having any worries. Staying out, you know, until dusk and then mother would whistle for me to come home. And I

00:04:36.960 - 00:05:02.160

made my best friend of all time then, who lived across the street and we went to the same school, although she was one year older. But we've remained best friends ever since. So we still get together. She lives out in western Oklahoma, northwestern, and I live here. And so we meet halfway once a month and

00:05:02.160 - 00:05:32.680

have lunch and chat. When you were growing up, when you were young with two brothers, what were some of the games you played? I was little sister. Did they protect you a lot? No. My biggest protector of the two was my younger one because we were a little closer in age. But my older brother was a little pesky

00:05:32.680 - 00:06:08.840

and he still is. He's gonna love this film. He knows he is. And he's probably the brightest of the three of us. But we keep in touch and so that it's, it was a nice childhood, very nice childhood. Do you recall starting to school? Yes, I remember starting into Pershing. I don't remember the first day. I remember little

00:06:08.840 - 00:06:36.280

incidents that happened and I remember the May poll. We used to have wonderful little celebrations in those days, you know. And I was stressed. On the first day of May. On the first day of May. I remember that and I think I was dressed for some reason in an Indian costume. And also in those days... Do you still have that costume? No.

00:06:36.280 - 00:07:04.160

I think there must be a picture somewhere. And also I started dancing lessons and I had a partner. His name was Keith Spalding. My goodness, that name just popped out. So, this has been a long time ago. And we danced an Irish dance together. And I do remember having pictures of that with us in costumes.

00:07:04.160 - 00:07:26.840

Did you live close enough to walk to school? Oh, I always walked. How large was your elementary school? For example, was there more than one first grade? No, I don't believe there was more than one first grade. And it was one of those old schools that's built around the schoolyard. It was like two or three

00:07:26.840 - 00:07:49.200

wings of it and all the hallways were outside, covered, but outside hallways. Do you remember any teachers that stand out in your mind in elementary? Not by name. I don't remember. And then I went to another elementary school. My last year in elementary school I went to one called Elliott and that was because my

00:07:49.200 - 00:08:19.840

parents moved to a new home. And I remember the principal's name. His name was George Widener. And I liked that school very much. Of course, I was getting older and appreciating things more then. In elementary school, do you recall what you really enjoyed about school? Which subject impressed you? In elementary school?

00:08:19.840 - 00:08:47.560

No, I don't, Deni. I don't remember any particular subject I liked. Okay. When you were in elementary school, what were your vacations like? Where did you go? What did you do? Well, the family often went to the Ozarks in Arkansas and Missouri. And I think that's where I got my love of the woods. So that when they moved to, on

00:08:47.560 - 00:09:11.200

South Utica, south of the city, which was out of the city limits at that time, but quickly taken in, but it was, there were some woods there surrounding it and across the street was a farm that was owned by an Indian family. That property all around Tulsa, a lot of it was part of the Perryman family property. And I used

00:09:11.200 - 00:09:34.920

to wander a lot through those woods and there was a running creek just short down the hill a little bit from the house. I used to build dams in the sandy creek and dam up the water and we'd dig caves and all that sort of thing. When you were in elementary school, were there any Indian children in that school? Not

00:09:34.920 - 00:10:04.640

that I was aware of. There probably were, but at that age we weren't conscious of that. Are you aware of any schools that were specifically for Indians children? No, I don't remember. When you would go to Arkansas on vacation, where would you stay? We would stay in what they called, was it motor courts? It'd be like a motel

00:10:04.640 - 00:10:34.240

now. And not very fancy, you know, they weren't then. And what did you do for fun? Well, my father was a fisherman and he'd take the boys fishing, but I never got to go fishing. But we had swimming and the water was very cold, very cold. But my dad had been a swimmer and in fact he used to swim in the Mississippi River.

00:10:34.240 - 00:11:03.920

And he had put himself through school and all that sort of thing. We have, he liked to tell about those years, you know. But we would just, there was one place we stayed called Roots Playground that's been gone for a long time. But it was on the Spavina River, which was dammed for Spavina Lake, which is where the city got

00:11:03.920 - 00:11:26.440

its water in those days. And it was such good water, we didn't talk about it as water, we called it Spavina, Spavina water. It was just wonderful water without all the chemicals in it that we have now. And that was the cold, cold water I remember. And the boys would dive off the cliffs and that sort of thing. I was a

00:11:26.440 - 00:11:48.400

little small for that. So we all became pretty good swimmers because my dad, I think, must have assisted on it. When you were in school, were your parents involved in your school activities? Well, I remember mother being always at hand. But of course dad was busy with his

00:11:48.400 - 00:12:05.680

work. Right. Tell me about your grandparents. I had only one grandparent living when I was born. That was my mother's mother. We called her Mamaw. She was still living in Columbia, Missouri, with a nice home

00:12:05.680 - 00:12:27.360

there. She'd been a widow for many years. Her husband had been a railroad man and also cattleman. He drove cattle up the Chisholm Trail and she would go with him. But they settled in a town, in fact they settled the town, founded the town of Yukon, Oklahoma, which is very close to Oklahoma City. In fact, it's surrounded

00:12:27.360 - 00:12:54.200

by Oklahoma City, although it is its own city charter. And at the time they came to Yukon and founded that, did they come in wagons? Do you have any idea? No, I don't. He came there because he was building railroad. I don't believe they

00:12:54.200 - 00:13:17.560

did come in a wagon, but I really don't know. They had to come in some kind of transportation, didn't they? I don't remember my grandmother talking about it, but my mother had written history about it. She would talk about it because she was the oldest child of six and two others that died in infancy. But six

00:13:17.560 - 00:13:46.480

living and she was the oldest with three brothers, two sisters. Did you get to visit with your grandmother when you were a child very much? We would, I remember visiting there only once because I guess I was too young to remember. I remember her being in our home more and she was in Tulsa when she

00:13:46.480 - 00:14:17.680

died. Do you remember anything special about her? Well, it may be a wish I had known other grandparents. My father's parents had long since gone and this grandmother's husband died when my mother was sixteen

00:14:17.680 - 00:14:39.880

in Kansas City. He had moved his family to Kansas City to have better education. I think she was rather dictatorial, you know. Perhaps that was a sign of the times. Tell me, what was a Christmas like in your home when you were growing up?

00:14:39.880 - 00:15:06.280

Well, it was the usual Christmas tree, you know, and presents. I remember the thing that really thrilled me was when I got a bicycle. I immediately took off on that bicycle. I went too far from home and got scared. But I just loved that feeling of being free. It was sort of like a freedom and I think that's one

00:15:06.280 - 00:15:21.840

thing that stayed with me and always been with me, was that love of freedom that flying gives. At Christmas time, would you have other relatives who would come and spend Christmas with you or have Christmas dinner?

00:15:21.840 - 00:15:51.520

No, we didn't have any relatives in town. My mother's family had pretty well scattered. Two brothers in Texas, one in New Mexico, a sister in Colorado, and a sister in New York. So we did have them visit and we visited in Colorado quite a bit and I remember being in New Mexico. The two uncles in Texas were bachelors.

00:15:51.520 - 00:16:20.360

So they really came to our house to visit. I remember one in particular, although I didn't see him often, I was very fond of him because he played with me a lot. When you were in elementary school, did you have a role model? A role model in elementary school? Not that I recall, Deney.

00:16:20.360 - 00:16:37.080

When you went to this new elementary school and then finished elementary, then did you have to change schools again? I changed schools after the sixth grade and went to junior high school. That's what they called them then.

00:16:37.080 - 00:16:54.520

Was it close enough for you to walk? No. My father took me in the morning and I rode the bus home in the afternoon and I had to go downtown and transfer to get home. So it was quite some distance. In junior high, what was your favorite subject?

00:16:54.520 - 00:17:28.880

Believe it or not, I liked Latin and I enjoyed algebra. I probably would have liked science pretty well too. I had a teacher who made a big mistake in that I was sitting next to another student, a girl that we liked each other quite well, but we just happened to sit next to each other in class. After a test one day, the

00:17:28.880 - 00:17:50.640

teacher called us in and accused us of cheating, of copying from each other. We had the same grade on the test. Well, it was later that she looked and saw that we did not miss the same questions and she apologized. But we were just crushed, you know, that she would think that because I knew she wouldn't cheat and I

00:17:50.640 - 00:18:12.920

knew I hadn't cheated. There wasn't a lot of that in those days, as far as I knew. How did that make you feel about that teacher? I just felt cool toward her after that. When you finished junior high, then did you change school buildings again?

00:18:12.920 - 00:18:45.040

Oh yes. I went down to Central High School, the only high school in Tulsa at that time. It covered a full city block, square block that is. It had four stories and we did a lot of stair climbing. But it was a lovely school, big tall ceilings and polished wood floors. It was a wonderful school and a lot of wonderful teachers there.

00:18:45.040 - 00:19:15.160

It was a school that was known in a lot of circles in those days. But my last year there was the last year before they had two other high schools built. So my high school graduating class was about 1,500 and that was the largest graduating class ever. And what kind of student were you?

00:19:15.160 - 00:19:43.880

I would say B+ to A. While you were in high school, were you interested in other things other than just academics? Not particularly at that time. I was shy. I was a shy girl. Just as there is today, I'm sure, there were cliques.

00:19:43.880 - 00:20:08.600

I always wanted to belong to one of the cliques, which I never did. And then my two brothers had done very well in school. I remember the first one had won a national award. He was six years older than I. The next one, who's three and a half years older, had been very popular in school.

00:20:08.600 - 00:20:40.360

And a member of the Speaker's Bureau and on the Days Committee, the DAZE, that was the school talent production. He was a class officer. He was in all the plays, that sort of thing. But my little sister just didn't have that bent. I did try out for Speaker's Bureau and I think the teacher took pity on me and said, "Yes, you can come in."

00:20:40.360 - 00:21:03.560

But the thing I remember about it most was that whoever was in charge of that class, I mean for the other student who was kind of program director or something of that nature, seemed to me to always choose me to speak spontaneously for part of the time. So I began reading up on things to talk about.

00:21:03.560 - 00:21:22.760

But I was not particularly active in church. I had some good friends. But did I say church? I meant school. >> Okay. What were your social activities like when you were in high school? >> Well, that's just it. I didn't have a lot of social activities.

00:21:22.760 - 00:21:46.520

I did belong to a club. It was not one of the main ones, a social club. I never did date in high school. So I was kind of a shy little girl. >> You were in a shadow. >> Not...yeah. >> What were your dreams as a child?

00:21:46.520 - 00:22:17.400

>> As a child? >> Mm-hmm. Or even on up into high school? >> I think...well, my dreams...a recurring dream was...not as far as goals go, but a recurring dream was somebody was trying to catch me and I would fly. I would simply flap my arms and fly and just stay out of reach of whatever it was trying to get at me.

00:22:17.400 - 00:22:48.680

And I've understood later people saying that that's not an uncommon dream. But it happened quite frequently. But it was that flying that always saved me. >> As you were growing up, were you more attached to your dad than your mom? >> No, vice versa. My dad was very business conscious.

00:22:48.680 - 00:23:10.680

I think he was...my brothers remember him in a different way from I do, and each brother remembers in a different way, too. But I think he sort of left me to my mother, which was fine. She was my supporter, really, through everything.

00:23:10.680 - 00:23:35.640

>> Do you recall a high school prom? >> No, I don't recall a high school prom. I wonder if there was one. >> Tell me about your graduation. >> From high school? >> Well, being that large a class, it was a very large service, and it was given in what was called the Coliseum,

00:23:35.640 - 00:24:03.640

which later burned down, not through any fault of ours. But it was just a very large... >> Did you have caps and gowns? >> Oh, yes. We had caps and gowns. >> Before you graduated from high school, what were your goals? Did you know where you wanted to go to school, or was that an option for you?

00:24:03.640 - 00:24:33.640

>> I rather knew where I wanted to go, and I think my parents really influenced that, because I ended up at Stevens College in Columbia, Missouri, which had been their home, and they were familiar with the school. In fact, the president of it at that time had been a friend of my father's. So that's where I went for two years, and at that time it was a girls' junior college. Now it's a four-year school.

00:24:33.640 - 00:25:14.640

>> When you went to Stevens, what was going to be your major? Or did you have one? >> I didn't have majors, but I sort of... I would say I minored in art, and I was very interested in psychology. >> What adjustments did you have to make in moving away from home? Where did you live? >> I lived in a dormitory, and I liked that life. I did. I liked it very much.

00:25:14.640 - 00:25:56.640

In the senior year, that is the second year, I lived in a very old building called Senior Hall. I just felt it was sort of an honor. But of course, it became condemned later. They wouldn't allow anybody to live in it. >> When you were at Stevens, did you join any clubs or become active in social activities at Stevens? >> They had so-called sororities. No, I did not join one of those.

00:25:56.640 - 00:26:35.640

>> In the summertime, when you were going to Stevens, what would you do? >> Well, I went home. I can't remember whether it was one of those years or later. Yes, it was. No, I think it was one of the later years, summers, that I worked one summer. I think my dad arranged that. He probably was even paying my salary, now that I think about it,

00:26:35.640 - 00:26:59.640

because it was at the public service company and I was working in customer relations. >> When you finished Stevens, then where did you go? >> I went to the University of Tulsa. I graduated from there. While I was there, I became a member of Tri-Delta Sorority, Delta, Delta, Delta.

00:26:59.640 - 00:27:31.640

I was house manager for one year. But the thing that really happened in those years was learning to fly. >> When did you first become aware of airplanes and a desire to fly them? >> When we moved, I was somewhere around ten, eleven, and so forth.

00:27:31.640 - 00:27:51.640

For some reason, it just fascinated me. I don't have any particular instance that some of the girls seemed to have had, when they just knew right then they wanted to fly. But I collected things, pictures. I even had a book on learning to fly.

00:27:51.640 - 00:28:24.640

Where I came across that, I don't know. I think probably Amelia Earhart's adventures had something to do with that. But I just had the feeling that that was really sort of a destiny. I think I liked the feeling. I had a sense it would be very freeing.

00:28:24.640 - 00:28:48.640

>> And then when did you put that feeling into action? >> Well, when the civil pilot training program was offered there at the university, I applied. That was a scary thing for me, because I was shy, I remember. I had to apply to the dean of the engineering school, who was a pretty serious fellow.

00:28:48.640 - 00:29:04.640

[Laughter] He was up there, you know. But anyway, I did. I gathered my wits about me and went in with fluttering heart and made the application. And I was accepted.

00:29:04.640 - 00:29:25.640

There was a class of 20 students, 10% of whom could be girls. So that meant two of us. There were two girls in that class, and I was one of them. >> Tell me about your first experience going to the airport to learn to fly.

00:29:25.640 - 00:29:48.640

>> Well, it was my very first time in an airplane. And it just seemed the natural thing. I loved it. I just really fell in love with it then, when I really got close to it. I just wanted to spend all my time out there at the airport, even if there was nothing to do.

00:29:48.640 - 00:30:10.640

I would sit there and watch a few takeoff and landings and enjoy the sun and all that. >> Describe for me your first solo. What kind of airplane do you recall? >> What I soloed in, I need to refer to my logbook for that.

00:30:10.640 - 00:30:32.640

But it was either a Piper Cub or a Taylorcraft, although I do remember flying the Aronca II. It was one of those two. My first solo, on my approach to land, I felt that there was something not right about that, so I gave it the gun and went around.

00:30:32.640 - 00:30:56.640

And that was okay with the instructor. So I did land okay the second time around. >> Do you remember where you were and how you heard about Pearl Harbor? >> I must have been in school, but I don't remember how I heard about it.

00:30:56.640 - 00:31:20.640

>> But you had already started flying before? >> I started flying in December, or no, October, I believe it was, of '41. No, yeah, '41. >> What did your mom and dad think about your learning to fly?

00:31:20.640 - 00:31:45.640

>> Well, that's rather odd because I had to make application. I had to get their approval because I was underage. Mother was aware of what was going on, but apparently Dad just thought I was going to learn about it, just learn about it, you know, study it.

00:31:45.640 - 00:32:05.640

So when I actually was flying, he was a little taken aback. Mother knew all the time, and I think she realized it was something that I just-- it was a dream that I wanted to follow, and she went along with that. >> Did they ever come out to the airport and watch you fly?

00:32:05.640 - 00:32:22.640

>> Well, Mother was my first passenger when I got my license, but Dad never wanted to fly, and he didn't even fly commercially for years. >> Right. And you went ahead. Did you finish at the university then?

00:32:22.640 - 00:32:48.640

>> Yes, I graduated from the university. >> And then did you just stay at that same airport and keep flying? >> Yes. The other girl student and I bought a quarter interest each in a Piper Cub, 40 horsepower, and one of the men students had a half.

00:32:48.640 - 00:33:12.640

And this other female student was Margaret Ann Hamilton, who also became WASP in my training class. And we had some good times together at that airport, and using that little plane. That's how I built up hours in order to qualify for the WASP. >> After Pearl Harbor happened, were there any restrictions on your flying in the Tulsa area?

00:33:12.640 - 00:33:41.640

>> Not that I recall. >> When did you first hear about the WASP training program? >> I was working, and so was Margaret Ann, at Douglas Aircraft here in Tulsa. We were in the department where they were modifying B-24s, doing some changes on it, particularly the interiors.

00:33:41.640 - 00:34:07.640

And so I was an inspector of those modifications. And I learned about the possibility of joining the WASP from Margaret Ann. I don't recall how she had learned of it. I think she'd read about it or overheard something about it. But she told me about it, and we decided that was something we'd like to do.

00:34:07.640 - 00:34:41.640

>> This job at Douglas, tell me about some of the things you inspected. >> Well, it was just interior fittings. This only lasted maybe six weeks before I joined the WASP, so I don't have a terribly good memory about that. But we had a checklist to check off everything that had been changed to see if it was there, if it actually had been done.

00:34:41.640 - 00:35:07.640

>> I know during that time period, there was someone some people called "Rosie the Riveter". Did you know any Rosie the Riveters? >> No, I didn't know any Rosie the Riveters. I wasn't in that department, but weren't they wonderful? I think they were terrific, yes. >> Do you recall making application for the WASP?

00:35:07.640 - 00:35:36.640

>> Some of the girls said they were interviewed. I was never interviewed. I'm sorry to say I don't remember how I came upon an application, how I did that. I remember distinctly flying to Tarrant Field in Fort Worth to take a physical. That was an experience. My best friend that I spoke of earlier flew with me as far as Ardmore, Oklahoma.

00:35:36.640 - 00:36:01.640

We had to leave the plane there. I was flying this little J-3 Cub that I had a quarter interest in. Because icing conditions were so bad, I kept losing altitude. So we stopped at Ardmore and left the plane there and went on to Fort Worth by bus to Tarrant Field and had a physical. >> Who gave you that physical?

00:36:01.640 - 00:36:29.640

>> An Army doctor. It should have been someone who knew how to put a needle in an arm. I'll put it that way. He couldn't get the needle in my vein. He had it in my arm, but it wasn't in the vein right, so instead of taking it out and trying again, which maybe he should have done anyway, but he was wiggling that needle around in my arm.

00:36:29.640 - 00:36:47.640

But I withstood it and I passed the physical. So maybe that was one of the reasons I passed. He felt sorry for me. And I did take all that. >> Did your mom and dad know what you were doing and why you were doing it?

00:36:47.640 - 00:37:04.640

>> Oh yes. >> And they approved? >> I assume that my dad did. He would pretty much let me do whatever my mother said was okay. She was afraid for me.

00:37:04.640 - 00:37:29.640

She had friends, even back when I was learning to fly at the old home airport, she would have friends say, "How can you let Betty do such a thing?" But she knew it was important to me. Then when she went as my first passenger on this little piper,

00:37:29.640 - 00:37:56.640

she was hanging on to the struts inside the airplane like she could hold it up. But she was a game. I do appreciate that still. >> Why do you feel that you wanted to go into the WASP training program? >> Well, the war was on and there was all that talk about doing something for the war effort.

00:37:56.640 - 00:38:27.640

Well, what better way for me to do it than to join the WASP and fly, because I loved doing that anyway. And the two just seemed like a perfect match. >> What were your expectations about the WASP program and what you would do after? >> Oh, I didn't have any thoughts about what was coming after.

00:38:27.640 - 00:38:59.640

But I was just eager to do anything that would let me fly. I didn't have any particular expectations, I remember, except that I was just enthralled with it. I felt very, very fortunate to be able to do this. >> Before we move on into the training program, let me ask you if there's anything about your childhood

00:38:59.640 - 00:39:25.640

or your school years that I have left out that you would like to tell us about. >> No, I don't believe I can think of anything. >> Was there anything during the time that you were learning to fly, were you ever afraid? >> No, I was not. I think I just belonged there. I was not afraid.

00:39:25.640 - 00:39:53.640

>> Were there any incidents that happened that you would like to talk about? >> Before I was in the WASP? No, I didn't have any incidents. >> How did the males who were flying, when you were just learning to fly, the ones in the CPT program, how did they respond to you girls?

00:39:53.640 - 00:40:24.640

>> Well, we were just there. They weren't resentful in any way. There were actually a lot more of them. >> Let me ask you about other things in that program other than flying, the ground school part. >> Well, of course, that was at the university in one of the engineering building classrooms. That was, to me, more difficult than the flying part.

00:40:24.640 - 00:40:50.640

>> What particular subject did you not enjoy or not do as well in? >> I don't know that there was any particular one, Deney. I just remember that I'd much rather have been out at the airport, but I knew this was necessary. So I did all right. >> In the CPT program, did you have link trainers?

00:40:50.640 - 00:41:01.640

>> Not in civil pilot training, no. >> Okay. As we move on, I think we'll change the tape. >> Yes, ma'am. >> I can relax for a minute?

00:41:01.640 - 00:41:14.640

>> You sound relaxed to me. >> You sound very animated, which is wonderful. >> I am? >> Oh, yes. And that's good, because kids are going to enjoy it.

00:41:14.640 - 00:41:28.640

>> Do you want some water? >> How were you notified to report for training? >> I don't like to tell you this, but I don't remember. >> That's okay.

00:41:28.640 - 00:41:49.640

>> I just remember the trip down there and my physical. That's it, until I appeared on base. >> Okay. You don't recall how you got from Tulsa to Sweetwater? >> I didn't go to Sweetwater. I went to Houston, Texas. >> Oh, I'm sorry. I meant Houston.

00:41:49.640 - 00:42:09.640

>> I don't know. >> That's okay. Did you know any other girls who were going to Houston to go into training? >> Just Margaret Ann Hamilton-Tunner, who was in my Civil Pilot Training Program class. >> Did you go together? Maybe not.

00:42:09.640 - 00:42:36.640

>> I don't know. Perhaps not. We did room together for quite a while. We stayed in the motel, which they had secured just for us, and we were in the same unit. >> Tell me what happened when you got to Houston. >> Well, I found Houston to be very flexible, we'll say, in its weather.

00:42:36.640 - 00:43:09.640

But it was sort of fun staying in the motel. It was comfortable, you know, not plush by any means. But we were there together. I guess it was sort of like being in a VOQ or something that we were to know later. And we rode out to the airfield in a bus that we called the "Grey Goose."

00:43:09.640 - 00:43:44.640

And it was sort of like a cattle truck. It had canvas sides or some kind of a weatherproofed material. We sat on each side of it, facing each other. Very rudimentary, but it got us there. It was pretty dry, and so we trained flying at the municipal airport there, which I think they call Hobby now.

00:43:44.640 - 00:44:05.640

>> Were there already WASPs there in training? >> There had been one class there before us, and they had to live in private homes. That's how they got started there. You'll have to ask one of them, though, how they got back and forth the field.

00:44:05.640 - 00:44:32.640

I don't recall that. >> Tell me what a typical day was like in training. >> Well, we would go to the airport and have breakfast, and then we were assigned to fly or assigned to study. There was what they called a "ready room," where we would gather to find out what we were going to be doing.

00:44:32.640 - 00:45:00.640

If doing nothing, if we were waiting for weather, which was rather frequent, we would busy ourselves there. As I recall, there was quite a bit of fog in the morning in Houston, very often. I remember Christmas we spent there. I went down in December, and Christmas Day was very warm, very warm.

00:45:00.640 - 00:45:23.640

The day before had been miserably cold. It changes very rapidly. We had a lot of weather like that to contend with, whereas those who've been in Sweetwater tell me it was dry as a bone and a lot of wind and dust. But we had the rain and the fog, but when it was sunny, it was beautiful.

00:45:23.640 - 00:45:50.640

>> What was the makeup of the personnel who were running the program? >> Well, they were Army personnel. We had a major who was heading it up and then a couple of lieutenants, I think, under him. I've already donated my class book to TWU, which would have all their pictures in it and all.

00:45:50.640 - 00:46:14.640

And then Dede Deaton, of course, was there already. >> And who was Dede Deaton? >> She was the establishment officer, a civilian that kind of looked after the WASP and all of their needs. >> Did Miss Cochran come to visit that unit?

00:46:14.640 - 00:46:25.640

>> I don't remember her coming there while I was there. She may have. I don't recall that. I remember seeing her in Dallas. >> What kind of instructors did you have?

00:46:25.640 - 00:46:58.640

>> We had civilian instructors. I don't know how they were chosen, but my instructor's name was Jack Misch, and I had him the whole time through primary, basic, and advanced. I liked him very much. He was very personable, but down to business and fair, seemed to me quite fair.

00:46:58.640 - 00:47:26.640

We all liked him, and I think probably all the girls liked their instructors pretty well. There was one time when we had to be checked out by some other instructor. I don't know. Maybe that was just a precautionary measure to see how they were stacking up. But this instructor—I'd been getting along fine, as far as I knew—

00:47:26.640 - 00:47:42.640

but I went up with this instructor, and I felt fine until we were landing. All of a sudden, he jerked the stick away from me. "You're too high! You're too high!" It seemed like the same pattern I always used.

00:47:42.640 - 00:48:09.640

After that, I got a check ride by an Army check pilot. I guess I was kind of a naive little girl at that time. I wasn't too worried. I felt that I'd been doing okay. I didn't have any reason not to think so. Apparently, he thought so too, because I got along fine.

00:48:09.640 - 00:48:31.640

I graduated. But as I thought back on it later, I thought, "Maybe I just really squeaked through and didn't know it." I was just very fortunate, because a lot of girls that I think probably should not have been disqualified were really qualified, actually.

00:48:31.640 - 00:49:01.640

Tell me what the primary phase consisted of. What kind of airplanes? For the first three weeks, we flew civilian aircraft, because no Army aircraft had arrived for us yet. They consisted of just about anything—WACO, Cub, Taylorcraft, Aronca, a Beech. Then we got the PT-19s, and that thrilled us.

00:49:01.640 - 00:49:26.640

It was a slow-wing monoplane, and we enjoyed that. But since we'd already had three weeks of the primary, we didn't stay on those a long time. Then we got the BT-13, and we were on those quite a long time. We had some instrument training.

00:49:26.640 - 00:50:09.640

We had AT-6s, and then for some reason we had a lot of time in the AT-17, which was the C-78. It was another designation for it, because it was used as an advanced trainer, so that's what it was called. We took a lot of instrument time in it. When we graduated, we finished all of our training in Houston, the second class, and then flew the airplanes—ferried them, you might say—over to Sweetwater, where we had a graduation ceremony.

00:50:09.640 - 00:50:35.640

Jacqueline Cochran, of course, appeared for that and presented us our wings. Do you know why they moved the school from Houston to Sweetwater? Well, because they wanted a regular Army training base, and that was opening up. There still were some cadets there.

00:50:35.640 - 00:50:59.640

That's my understanding, but by the time we arrived, of course, there weren't any there. What did your basic training consist of, mostly? Was that instruments for you? Well, it was just various things.

00:50:59.640 - 00:51:26.640

We did quite a bit of cross country, and some instrument, and some lake. Or did we have lake? That might have been Dallas. I know we had lake in Dallas. What were some of the courses that you had to take, other than flying lessons themselves, as far as ground school?

00:51:26.640 - 00:51:52.640

Yeah, things like weather, aerodynamics, and things like that. Did you take Morse code? Oh, yeah. I sort of liked that. And your instructors in ground school were Army or civilians?

00:51:52.640 - 00:52:24.640

In Houston, I think they were civilian. I don't remember ground school a whole lot there. When I did go to my base, we had to attend ground school whenever we were on the base. How long was it before you were to graduate, when you moved from Houston to Sweetwater? How much time did you have at Sweetwater?

00:52:24.640 - 00:52:51.640

Just overnight. We just flew there and had our graduation ceremony. Do you remember which airplane you flew over there? Yes, I flew the Cessna AT-17 with another, one of my classmates. Describe your graduation at Sweetwater.

00:52:51.640 - 00:53:37.640

All of the students who were there were, of course, in formation and all that. We paraded and we went up on the stand and received our diploma from Jacqueline Cochran and wings that were specially designed for our class. The first four classes each had separate wings. I mean, they weren't all the same design. We had a speaker, of course. I can't remember who that was.

00:53:37.640 - 00:53:52.640

Did you have a band? Probably. Before you graduated, had you already received your orders for what station? Yes.

00:53:52.640 - 00:54:09.640

Did you have a choice of stations? We had a choice. I got my first choice, which was Dallas. I assume that the reason I chose that was because I thought I might get home once in a while. That didn't really happen that much.

00:54:09.640 - 00:54:23.640

But I'm very glad that I did stay at Dallas. Did your mom and dad come for your graduation? Yes, they did. Describe how that made you feel.

00:54:23.640 - 00:54:43.640

I was very happy anyway. I would have been happy if they hadn't even, but I was very happy that they were there. They were proud of me. They were proud that I had done that. Did your dad pin your wings? No, Jacqueline Cochran did.

00:54:43.640 - 00:55:12.640

How many of you graduated in your class? Do you recall? I think it might have been 43. I'm not positive. After you graduated, did you have some time off? I had about two weeks to go home and it squared away to go back to Dallas.

00:55:12.640 - 00:55:33.640

That was just a nice, relaxing time. When you got to Dallas, to whom did you report? I don't remember. Were there other WASPs already?

00:55:33.640 - 00:55:56.640

Oh, yes, there were some already there. The first class, those who had been assigned to Dallas, were there. And a few WAFs probably. What is a WAF? A WAF is a Women Auxiliary Ferrying Squadron member. That group was formed by Nancy Love in Wilmington, Delaware.

00:55:56.640 - 00:56:28.640

They preceded us, actually, but they were a static group. That is, they didn't have incoming classes coming in. Not additional training. They were already highly experienced pilots. Where did you live at Love Field? I lived in B.O.Q., a prefab. All the buildings, actually, were prefab for the 5th Ferrying Group.

00:56:28.640 - 00:57:00.640

It was quite near the maintenance hangar, so we had engines going day and night. We soon got used to that, though. Tell me about your very first assignment. My first ferrying trip was an AT-6, but it's not the one that I really remember.

00:57:00.640 - 00:57:27.640

The one I really remember was flying a PT-17, the biplane, because I'd never flown one before. I remember I had a little transition time, an hour and a half or so. Then I was taken to Wichita by some airplane there at the field. It would haul us around and take us where we were supposed to go, unless it was just a short distance.

00:57:27.640 - 00:57:50.640

Then they'd take us by auto. I think that time I flew to San Antonio, and there were stops in Oklahoma City and Dallas and somewhere. There were quite a few stops when you were flying the PT-17. Any problems?

00:57:50.640 - 00:58:04.640

No, no. When you got to San Antonio, did you leave the airplane? I left the airplane and we were flown back to Dallas. There could have been a flight of us.

00:58:04.640 - 00:58:40.640

I had kept most of my orders about what I was to fly and when and so forth. I gave those to TWU. Tell me about any unusual experiences you might have had as a ferry pilot. Well, a very amusing one and a lot of fun was when I flew a P-51 from Dallas to Newark.

00:58:40.640 - 00:59:13.640

Upon arrival, I met one of my classmates who had flown from Long Beach to Newark. We arrived at the same time we were given the same orders to go up to Farmingdale, Long Island and pick up P-47s. We were driven into Grand Central Station, and we went to the ticket and asked for tickets to Farmingdale. We got our tickets and got on the train and rode quite a while.

00:59:13.640 - 00:59:34.640

We saw lots of water and stuff, but it's taking a long time. Finally, the conductor was coming by calling off a stop, and we said, "How much longer to Farmingdale?" He says, "New Jersey or Long Island." We were in New Jersey.

00:59:34.640 - 00:59:55.640

We didn't know to ask for Long Island specifically. We got off, got another train back to Grand Central Station. It was too late to go to Farmingdale, Long Island. We went to a nearby hotel, the New Yorker, which in those days was a very fine hotel.

00:59:55.640 - 01:00:18.640

It's not even in existence anymore, but it was very nice. We didn't have money, enough to stay, that sort of thing, so he was just really nice. He let us write checks. Just delighted to have us, so we felt real good about that.

01:00:18.640 - 01:00:48.640

We decided we didn't want to sit here all night, so we got tickets to go see the Ziegfeld Follies. Milton Berle was the star then. That was a very fun time, to see the Rockettes and hear Milton Berle and all that, just from a silly mistake we made. Next morning, we did get to Farmingdale, finally, and got our P-47s, which went to Long Beach.

01:00:48.640 - 01:01:03.640

Can you imagine? That was the time. Picked up a P-51 in Long Beach. They also were made near there, as they were made near Dallas also.

01:01:03.640 - 01:01:21.640

So, turned around, picked up a P-51, and took it back to Newark. From that time, I flew home on the airlines. We flew on the airlines a lot. Of course, it was American, and it was DC-3, always.

01:01:21.640 - 01:01:39.640

Did you ever have a problem getting a ticket on the airline? No. Never had a problem, because the ferry pilots were second in priority to the president. Can you imagine that?

01:01:39.640 - 01:02:08.640

I found that out. It was brought home to me one time, because I was in Washington National Airport, getting a flight back to the base. I was on my way to the airplane. It was just about to be called, and I was stopped by a gentleman who wanted to know what I was doing.

01:02:08.640 - 01:02:34.640

I wasn't in this uniform. I don't think I was, because we didn't get uniforms for a long time. I could have had on a white shirt and khakis, or who knows what. But the reason he stopped me was he knew that I was the one that had bumped him off his flight.

01:02:34.640 - 01:03:00.640

It turns out that he was a member of Congress. Who was I, this young kid, bumping him off his flight? I was a little embarrassed, because here he was, a big wig, and I was just a gal. That brought it home to me that what we were doing was considered important.

01:03:00.640 - 01:03:16.640

They wanted to get those airplanes there. That's one reason we were given such strict ceiling and visibility limits, because they didn't want to take a risk on losing the airplanes. They wanted those to get to the destination.

01:03:16.640 - 01:03:39.640

>> When you would go on these varying missions, would it only be WASPs? >> Oh, no. No, the orders usually included quite a few of the men and maybe just one or three or four WASPs. >> Before you started flying those fighters, tell me about a temporary assignment that you had to learn to fly.

01:03:39.640 - 01:04:08.640

>> Oh, well, in order to fly the fighters, we were required to check out in the C-47, which was like the DC-3, a twin engine. Now, don't ask me why. I don't know what that was all about, but we did. Then we were sent to what they called "Pursuit School."

01:04:08.640 - 01:04:37.640

Of course, the fighters then were called "Pursuit," like P-51, P-47, something. Now, we went there, and I was also the second class of that group. That was in Palm Springs, California. That's not difficult to take. But it was December, and it can get very chilly at night.

01:04:37.640 - 01:05:04.640

But I didn't have any problems there. The first plane I flew there was called a BC-1, which was sort of like an AT-6, but it was used in training for pursuit. I think I had a couple of hours in that. Then I went on from that to the P-39 and the P-40 and the P-47 and the P-51.

01:05:04.640 - 01:05:30.640

Not much in the P-39. These planes, a lot of them were old, war-weary planes. The P-39 I flew one day I had no problem with, but later the safety officer called me in and asked if there was anything that I noticed about that airplane that was not right.

01:05:30.640 - 01:05:55.640

I said, "No." He said, "It seems that right after my flight, the guy who took over, and I was there when he came up to get in the cockpit, he crashed." I said, "What he did say to me was, 'Did you ring it out?'" So they assumed that he had tried to ring it out, and it just wasn't able to do it.

01:05:55.640 - 01:06:21.640

It was just a tired old airplane. I remember flying the P-47 for the first time, and I was amazed by it because it was so large and heavy. But my goodness, it felt so safe. When it landed, it had no tendency whatever to bobble.

01:06:21.640 - 01:06:42.640

It just stayed there. It was on the ground to stay, and that felt very good. Not so the P-40, which I did not care for. Of course, it had seen a lot of activity, and it was very much used in the Pacific Theater.

01:06:42.640 - 01:07:06.640

That's all we had, just about. But the P-40 was my first trip after pursuit school. I took it from Long Beach up to Alameda Naval Air Station. I went up the coastline.

01:07:06.640 - 01:07:24.640

It was so pretty, and I thought, "This is really great. I get to do this." I got into Alameda and called the tower, and I was cleared to land. I made a real good landing. Thank gosh, I thought, "I'm landing at the Naval Air Station.

01:07:24.640 - 01:07:41.640

I'm glad I made a good landing in this Army pilot in an Army airplane." It was to go out over, go to the Pacific. It was to be sent out right away. Out of the corner of my eye, I saw something approaching on a taxi strip, apparently.

01:07:41.640 - 01:08:03.640

Either they had landed and were rolling, but anyway, it was right in line, in the collision course with me. I didn't see it because the nose of the P-40—see, this was a tail dragger. The nose was way up there, and I couldn't see around it. I had the fishtail in order to see around where I was going.

01:08:03.640 - 01:08:23.640

But I did catch something out of the corner of my eye that was moving. I saw that, and then by that time I was close enough that there they were, two people in this airplane, and I could see their expressions. I was that close. They looked so startled.

01:08:23.640 - 01:08:35.640

Well, I was startled. I thought, "Ew, gods." I put on the brakes just barely too hard, and the nose kind of went, "Mmm." I thought, "Is it going over or not?"

01:08:35.640 - 01:08:52.640

And it did, bent the propeller. Well, I was fuming mad because that's at the time I applied the brakes. The tower called and says, "P-40 on the runway." That's all they got to say.

01:08:52.640 - 01:09:01.640

I was very, very angry. I just sat there, turned off the engine, just sat there. I didn't care what happened. Of course, they came out and got me.

01:09:01.640 - 01:09:21.640

No apologies, but nothing was said either. Of course, I had to call my base, tell them what happened. It's okay. But I was very chagrined because it happened on a naval air base, and the plane was supposed to go overseas right away.

01:09:21.640 - 01:09:36.640

Now they had to stop and mend the airplane. That was not a happy experience. But that was the first mishap I'd had ever. Did you feel that you were a failure?

01:09:36.640 - 01:10:09.640

No, I didn't, because I had clearance, and I did make a good landing. I did everything right, and I couldn't help it that I couldn't see this other guy. Maybe they weren't paying attention to the tower. I'm sure they didn't have radio contact, but they probably had a light where they'd shine a red ravine light for you.

01:10:09.640 - 01:10:28.640

Either he didn't see it or they didn't notice. Who knows? But it was a disappointment, the first mishap I'd had. Did you ever--no, let me rephrase that.

01:10:28.640 - 01:10:47.640

Were there other pilots other than WASP going through pursuit school? Oh, yes, there were men. Just relatively few WASP at a time. How many of you were there when you went through?

01:10:47.640 - 01:11:03.640

Probably about ten. In pursuit school, were there also washouts the same as there was in training? Did they have some girls who were just not suited for pursuit? Well, I didn't know of any.

01:11:03.640 - 01:11:21.640

There could have been. I don't know of any. I know that one was killed in the group before me from a crash that was apparently not of her doing. What was your favorite airplane to fly?

01:11:21.640 - 01:11:40.640

Well, I think probably I'd have to say the P-51, but the P-47 was certainly very close to it for different reasons. When you were at Love Field, you also got temporary duty to go to another school. Tell us about that. It was Officer Canada School.

01:11:40.640 - 01:11:59.640

They called it OCS. That was at a time when it was presumed we would be given rank. This took place in Orlando, Florida, for a month. It was delightful there, of course.

01:11:59.640 - 01:12:22.640

At that time, there was no Disneyland, Disney World. It was a very nice location, a pretty place. We stayed in barracks that time, not POQs, which have private rooms. But it was fun.

01:12:22.640 - 01:12:51.640

We had large barracks and a large bathroom, lots of sinks and so forth. We'd all gather in there, applying our makeup and whatnot. But it was a fun time, and we studied pretty hard there. But that didn't last very long, but it was a nice little respite, something different.

01:12:51.640 - 01:13:18.640

At Love Field, who was your commanding person? For the WAF squadron, it was a WAF, Florine Watson, Florine Miller, now Watson. She was very efficient. She was, I'd say, a WAF, which was one of the very first.

01:13:18.640 - 01:13:29.640

Was she in charge of assigning the flights, which flights you would go on? No. Who did that? I don't think so, because we got the assignments.

01:13:29.640 - 01:13:46.640

Well, we got the assignments, were sent, as I know. The assignments were printed up and given to the WASP office to hand out. While you were there, did Ms. Cochran visit that base? Yes, she did.

01:13:46.640 - 01:13:58.640

Tell me what your opinion was. She may have visited more than once, but only once when I was there. Because we were gone a lot, you see, various times. In fact, there were girls on that base that I never did meet.

01:13:58.640 - 01:14:17.640

What were the majority of your flights for? Were most of them to go to points of embarkation? The major part were. Others were from base to base or factory to base.

01:14:17.640 - 01:14:50.640

Some to training schools, particularly the PT-17. I had one that I really enjoyed, PT-17 from Wichita, where they were made, to Larry, California, where there was a training base, primary trainers. That was fun, because it gave me a chance to see the scenery.

01:14:50.640 - 01:15:13.640

I made a lot of stops, Oklahoma City and I think Ardmore, several places in Texas, including El Paso, Deming, New Mexico, Tucson, Phoenix, Blythe, to Larry finally. Was a whole group of you on that flight? No.

01:15:13.640 - 01:15:38.640

You were by yourself? I did. It may have been that flight or another when I ran into my old instructor, Jack Misch, at Houston. He was there with a bunch of WASPs. One of them came up and said, "Betty, guess who's here?" So I got to see him again. It was nice.

01:15:38.640 - 01:16:09.640

What were your social activities like at Love Field? Social activities. When we were on base during the day, we were supposed to – in fact, we did – go to classes, grad school. Whatever they were doing that day, we were there.

01:16:09.640 - 01:16:42.640

It didn't matter what time we got in the night before, which could have been 2 a.m. and then having to wash hair and all that to get ready for the next day, because we may have been out for a week or so. But at any rate, I'd get that long airplane ride home if we'd been delivering to Newark, for instance, and didn't have any further orders from there. We ate in the officers' mess.

01:16:42.640 - 01:17:27.640

A little socializing there sometimes. There was a private there who played the organ, and he'd play the organ for officers' mess. He was a local Dallasite, and apparently they recruited him to do this for the officers' mess. He sort of took the wasp under his wing. If one of us was getting pursued by one of the fellas, he didn't think it was suitable. He would let us know. He would come over and get in the way.

01:17:27.640 - 01:18:12.640

He was a little older, and just a heck of a nice guy, a jolly sort of fella. But we were allowed to date. Then we had the officers' club. This was nothing fancy. This was all prefab stuff. But sometimes we'd get groups together and play rummy, various card games, ping pong, and even dance. So that was the kind of social life we had, that I had.

01:18:12.640 - 01:18:54.640

Did you ever meet anybody really special? Well, yes. What do you mean by special? I mean male or female that I dated. Yes, he was a funny guy. I mean, he was ha-ha funny. Very jolly and kidded around a lot, but just a thoroughly nice person. We had a good time, but nothing serious, really. But I did have this connection on the outside at the time.

01:18:54.640 - 01:19:23.640

Do you want to talk about that connection, or would you rather not? Not really. I had one of his favorite uncles, I was telling you about. I didn't know him well because he wasn't around. He was down in southwest Texas, deep down in the Big Bend country. He came through one time on business, and he left me his car. He was so impressed that he gave me his car.

01:19:23.640 - 01:20:00.640

He said, "I need a new one anyway. I don't know how many miles this had on it," because he traveled a lot all over west Texas. But that was my first car, and I enjoyed that, having that. While there in Dallas, three of us decided we would, maybe it was four, decided we wanted to live off base. We were allowed to do that. So we found this place that we could rent with the family.

01:20:00.640 - 01:20:32.640

The family still lived there. It was a young couple, and he was a pilot. They had a little baby that they called Sparky. Sparky was still at the crawling stage. So Frances Diaz, one of my classmates, and also she was there in Dallas with me, we were in the same room. We could hear Sparky coming down the hall every morning to our room.

01:20:32.640 - 01:21:04.640

He was a fast crawler. He'd come across those floors and just come in and wake us up. But then after that family was transferred, we were there by ourselves. It wasn't long before we moved back to base, because trying to keep up a house when we were gone at all different times, it just wasn't very much fun anymore. So we moved back to base.

01:21:04.640 - 01:21:51.640

>>While you were stationed at Love Field, what were some of the other WASPs doing other than ferrying? Were you aware that some were doing different things? >>No, I wasn't. I remember one who had decided she didn't want to fly the pursuit. So she became -- what title did they give her? She was in the office there in our DOQ,

01:21:51.640 - 01:22:15.640

along with the commanding officer, who was Florine, for a while. Then it was Delfine Bond, who was also a WAF. But this WASP was a dear friend of mine, decided she didn't want to fly pursuit. So they let her stay on base, and she kind of looked after things in the office.

01:22:15.640 - 01:22:39.640

She got to know everybody on the -- all the WASPs there. She'd say, "Well, don't you remember so-and-so?" I'd say, "No, I don't remember her. I never did meet her." Isn't that strange? That was the one drawback, I'd say, of being on a ferrying base, was you didn't get close to everybody.

01:22:39.640 - 01:22:53.640

Okay, change tapes? >>We're going to change tapes now. >>All right! My closest friends at the base were also the ones that I trained with.

01:22:53.640 - 01:23:13.640

I knew Florine well. We liked the same thing. >>You were actually there, so that's why I'm curious. >>Well, Florine has told you, hasn't she? >>Well, I think it's probably like Florine told it. She apparently is not embarrassed about it.

01:23:13.640 - 01:23:26.640

But that's why she was transferred, was that accident. >>Oh, it was because of the accident. Okay. >>Okay, you want me to ask her? >>Okay, go ahead.

01:23:26.640 - 01:23:59.640

>>While you were there, your commander changed from one WAF to another WAF. Do you know why they changed commanders? >>To my knowledge, it was because Florine I had a rather unfortunate accident in a P-47. She hit a power line pole, I think, actually.

01:23:59.640 - 01:24:19.640

She was lucky to get down alive. This was when she was on her final approach. It just about tore the bottom out of the airplane. When she tried to step out, she fell through it. But I think they considered that that was poor judgment, maybe.

01:24:19.640 - 01:24:48.640

At any rate, she ended up in Long Beach, California. Then Jacqueline Cochran asked Bird Granger to be CO. And Bird was rather wise. I liked Bird a lot. And Bird suggested she not be, you might say.

01:24:48.640 - 01:25:04.640

She said, "No, I don't think that I would be the best one for that job." Because Bird knew she was a little controversial. She was a very outspoken and frank person. Some people would be read the wrong way, maybe without reason.

01:25:04.640 - 01:25:27.640

But at any rate, she suggested Delphine be it. And Delphine did accept, and she was a lovely person. And she did a good job. But I remember now going back, I remember a flight I took with Bird Granger and two other WASPs.

01:25:27.640 - 01:25:53.640

And Bird was the flight leader at that time. And we were flying BT-9s, which were very old. Should not have been flying, according to Bird. Every last one of us had trouble with their airplane.

01:25:53.640 - 01:26:17.640

And we were only going to, I think, Moultrie, Georgia, from Randolph Field. Why they wanted those planes moved, who knows? They weren't worth anything. But at any rate, Bird wrote up a report, a very detailed report on each airplane. That was how thorough Bird was.

01:26:17.640 - 01:26:42.640

Of course, she became an educator, you know. So she was a very knowledgeable, efficient person. While you were at Love, were any of the WASPs killed? I don't remember anyone being killed at Love.

01:26:42.640 - 01:27:07.640

If they were, it was when I wasn't there for a while, I guess. I did have a couple of classmates that were killed, but not there. What do you think you accomplished flying at Love? How did what you did help the war effort?

01:27:07.640 - 01:27:30.640

Well, I was very sort of impressed with the fact that I was flying new airplanes that were destined for the European theater, that would be flown in combat. And that was kind of exciting to think about, that I was delivering those airplanes to the port of embarkation,

01:27:30.640 - 01:27:57.640

which was Newark, New Jersey, for the east, and Long Beach for the west. When you left the WASP, then what did you do? Where did you go? I was married and I lived in Sherman, Texas, for a year. And while there, I was pretty footloose, not in a good way.

01:27:57.640 - 01:28:19.640

I didn't have enough to do. And, of course, gasoline rationing was on and sugar and all that stuff. And I certainly kept that apartment clean. So I got tired of that and I said, "There was a facility there at Sherman,

01:28:19.640 - 01:28:42.640

a manufacturing plant that had made farm machinery." It had been changed over into a factory that made mortar shells. And I thought, "That's for me. I can at least do that." So I go down and apply.

01:28:42.640 - 01:29:03.640

And that was an interesting experience, to use this press, this big steel press, coal, to press these mortar shells and work in a factory. And that was kind of neat. I was doing something and meeting different kinds of people.

01:29:03.640 - 01:29:27.640

But that was when they were running three shifts. And so the time came for me to go on a night shift. And I went in to see if I could get dispensation to stay on the day shift because my husband really objected to me being on the night shift.

01:29:27.640 - 01:29:43.640

In either of the night shifts, you might say there were two night shifts. So I felt compelled to give that up. That really disappointed me. But then after a year, my husband was transferred with his company,

01:29:43.640 - 01:30:09.640

which was a seismic exploration company, to Caracas, Venezuela. And that sounded kind of exciting. And it was. It was a good experience living there. That was a city that was 3,000 feet altitude but only about ten miles inland

01:30:09.640 - 01:30:27.640

and surrounded by mountains. Lovely climate, best climate I've ever been in. Although the rest of Venezuela had wet seasons and dry seasons, in Caracas, the wet season, it meant maybe a shower every day,

01:30:27.640 - 01:30:43.640

just a little shower, half an hour or so. And the temperature changed very, very little. It was like a sweater at night, a light blanket at night, and the daytimes were lovely and cool in the shade

01:30:43.640 - 01:31:06.640

and orchids growing in your backyard, you know, that sort of thing. My first daughter was born there, and there was no room at the hospital. They had what they called the ABC Hospital, which was American-British-Canadian. But there was no room.

01:31:06.640 - 01:31:37.640

So the doctor scratched around. He found this little place, clinic, maternity clinic in some place in town we certainly had never been to. So we couldn't find it. [Laughs] And finally my husband stopped some boy, probably 14 or 15 years old,

01:31:37.640 - 01:31:53.640

and asked if he knew where it was. Oh, yes, he knew where it was. Fortunately, he did, and we got there. And the doctor showed up shortly after. And I tell you, the people at that clinic really idolized my doctor.

01:31:53.640 - 01:32:14.640

He was top-notch, you know, and this was just not much more than a hole in the wall. My doctor got me out of there real fast. But everything was fine. Everything went well. And then when Ann was--just before she was a year old, we moved back here to the States

01:32:14.640 - 01:32:36.640

so my husband could go take additional schooling for three months. And then we moved to Mexico City. We arrived there on New Year's Eve and immediately went to a New Year's Eve party [laughs]

01:32:36.640 - 01:32:58.640

where we met the people that my husband would be working with, the people in the company, the home company here, as well as people with Pemex, the nationalized oil firm there, the oil company in Mexico.

01:32:58.640 - 01:33:22.640

And that was kind of interesting. It was different from Venezuela. I met Venezuelans okay, and that's fine. And my daughter's godparent, godmother, was Puerto Rican, actually.

01:33:22.640 - 01:33:37.640

Well, American, because I remember when I'd go with her shopping sometimes, she'd say--of course, she's speaking Spanish-- and they'd say, "Oh, Puerto Rican." And she'd say, "She's Puerto Rican."

01:33:37.640 - 01:33:54.640

"Oh, American, huh?" You know, I thought that kind of struck home to me. But mostly the people we saw there in Venezuela were people with other oil companies

01:33:54.640 - 01:34:12.640

because my husband was working with a contract company. So in Mexico, it was working for a contract company to the Mexican oil company. So the people we met a lot were Mexicans.

01:34:12.640 - 01:34:29.640

So it was a different situation, and Mexico City was a huge city. And, of course, it's just tremendous now. [Interviewer] Did your daughter start school in Mexico City? No, we moved back just before her first birthday.

01:34:29.640 - 01:34:46.640

She had her birthday here, and we were staying with my parents while we were here temporarily. And then when we went to Mexico, my first son was born there. And we just barely made it to the hospital there,

01:34:46.640 - 01:35:06.640

which was--the hospital was fine, you know. But I just barely got there in time. And Mexico was a different experience in that I was able to learn more about the history of the country

01:35:06.640 - 01:35:25.640

and see a little more of it than I did in Venezuela. But the climate, to me, in Venezuela-- at least in Caracas, not other parts--was really ideal. It was a little too cold, a little chilly in Mexico City.

01:35:25.640 - 01:35:39.640

My mother, when she came to visit, would go find a sunny spot outside to get warm. [Interviewer] And then how old was your son when you moved back? He was just four months old when we came back.

01:35:39.640 - 01:35:52.640

[Interviewer] And did you come back to Tulsa? Came back to Tulsa, been here ever since. [Interviewer] And then at some point, did you have another child? Had another son and another daughter.

01:35:52.640 - 01:36:08.640

And the oldest daughter is living here in Tulsa with three children and a grandchild, which makes me a great-grandmother. And the first son is in Seattle.

01:36:08.640 - 01:36:21.640

The second son is in Houston. And my second daughter is in France. [Interviewer] What is she doing in France? Well, she married a Frenchman.

01:36:21.640 - 01:36:35.640

But what she's doing in France, what she is doing-- and he helps her with it when he doesn't have his other work-- is beekeeping. I don't know how she became interested in beekeeping,

01:36:35.640 - 01:36:53.640

but it is a tremendously comprehensive thing to undertake. You just have to read about it and listen to her talk about it to know how much that entails, and it's very interesting. [Interviewer] As your children were growing up,

01:36:53.640 - 01:37:12.640

how were you involved in their activities? Well, I was involved in school. They were all swimmers. They were in the AAU program.

01:37:12.640 - 01:37:36.640

They swam eventually for a YMCA swim team. So we traveled around to a few places for swimming meets. That took up a lot of time, as well as getting them to practice. And then the girls took up horseback riding,

01:37:36.640 - 01:38:00.640

and that meant taking them to horse shows. And one time the second son wanted to go to the Y camp. They were having a special program. They were going to go scuba diving to the Bahamas.

01:38:00.640 - 01:38:19.640

So I said, "Well, I'll just take that scuba class with him down at the YMCA pool." So I did, and determined that I really wasn't that interested. I did go out to one of the lakes and practice, too.

01:38:19.640 - 01:38:39.640

But on the bottoms of lakes, you know, you often find bottles, trash that fishermen and so forth have thrown over. So it's not like scuba diving in the Bahamas. But I did get a lot out of it, I think.

01:38:39.640 - 01:39:00.640

And, of course, Biff did, except that he never got to go. They called it off for some reason or another. But anyway, both of the boys went to school on swimming scholarships, which was quite nice.

01:39:00.640 - 01:39:14.640

And they, all except the youngest girl, had jobs. Some were jobs that had to do with swimming, teaching, life-saving, that sort of thing. In fact, I did some, too.

01:39:14.640 - 01:39:32.640

While they were so busy swimming, I got back into it. I'd always been a swimmer since I was at a young age, but nothing like this, so I decided I would take life-saving class. So I did.

01:39:32.640 - 01:39:58.640

And then I got an instructor's rating from--water safety instructor from the Red Cross. Also, similar thing for the YM. So I taught classes for the YM and the Red Cross for a while.

01:39:58.640 - 01:40:20.640

And then also did first aid for the Red Cross. And for our efforts, we were given an opportunity to learn to sail with the Red Cross. So this close friend of mine, whom I had been teaching swimming classes with,

01:40:20.640 - 01:40:39.640

we decided we'd do that, so we learned to sail. And we both ended up with boats. Mine was a little dolphin, which was a fiberglass Latin rig boat made in Houston, a very popular boat.

01:40:39.640 - 01:41:04.640

But she ended up with an old, practically antique New York Sharpie, it was called. But that was a bit much to handle, and eventually she got rid of that. And after I was married to Dan, whom you met the day, he was not a sailor. I think he determined he wasn't going to be a sailor when I took him out

01:41:04.640 - 01:41:22.640

the first time with me on a very windy day. Should not have gone, but he said, "Let's live dangerously," so we did. And we ended up capsizing. And I was having a good time. I knew we weren't in danger.

01:41:22.640 - 01:41:43.640

We had on our life-saving devices, and I knew how to get the boat righted, especially with his help. But his help kept turning the boat over again because he was pulling too hard on it. And this was a turtle, totally upside down.

01:41:43.640 - 01:42:03.640

So finally I said, "Now just gently, Dan, just gently." So finally we got it upright, got back in the boat, and got back to land. But with his help, the wind was so strong, I don't think I could have managed the tiller and the sheet by myself.

01:42:03.640 - 01:42:23.640

[Laughs] But at any rate, we didn't keep the boat too long after that. Tell me, what were the qualities that Dan possesses that made you fall in love with him? Well, I met him through this AAU swim program.

01:42:23.640 - 01:42:42.640

He had two boys, but they were on different teams. So we actually got acquainted at swim meets. But I was married, he was married. But I just barely knew him.

01:42:42.640 - 01:42:59.640

So he became widowed, and I became divorced. After a while, he called me and he said, "Would you remember who Dan Smith is?" I said, "Well, of course." Swimmers.

01:42:59.640 - 01:43:20.640

So that's how we became acquainted, I mean, got together. But then what made you fall in love with him? Well, as you saw, he's a very sweet guy. I mean, he's very nice, he's very gentle and easy to get along with.

01:43:20.640 - 01:43:48.640

Have any of your children been interested in flying? The second son did some skydiving, a little bit of skydiving. And his girlfriend at the time, who was later to become his wife, and I think she wanted to be his wife so bad, she agreed to go skydiving with him one time.

01:43:48.640 - 01:44:04.640

But he didn't keep that up very long. Then the second daughter, the youngest, was a hang glider. And she really enjoyed hang gliding. She doesn't do it anymore.

01:44:04.640 - 01:44:31.640

Her husband also was a hang glider and even flew an ultralight in France. But they don't do it very seldom anymore. But they're all very following me, pretty much, and my experiences in the WASP. They're very interested in knowing what's going on all the time.

01:44:31.640 - 01:44:57.640

Tell me about your grandchildren. Well, I have three grandchildren, and they're all with my oldest daughter. Two girls and a boy, and they don't have any interest in flying. And the oldest granddaughter has a little girl who's about four and a half.

01:44:57.640 - 01:45:23.640

I wouldn't be surprised if she'd do anything she wanted to do. To me, she's a very special child, and I wouldn't be surprised if she'd do something like that. Today, what makes you happy? Getting together with my WASP friends is quite a highlight.

01:45:23.640 - 01:45:38.640

There's something very special about that. It's hard to explain unless you've been a part of something of that nature. It's sort of like a sisterhood. It's just a special feeling.

01:45:38.640 - 01:46:08.640

I was talking to a veteran the other day, and he was in the Army, but he had been a patrol leader. His group still has reunions, and he was the one that always got them all together. Hearing him talk, I said, "This sounds a lot like the way I feel about the WASP. It was a brotherhood."

01:46:08.640 - 01:46:34.640

He said, "Yeah, exactly." There was something about that era that was special, I think. What do you feel the legacy of the WASP will be? I think that they did something unique.

01:46:34.640 - 01:46:55.640

The fact that they were women, it sort of opened up a new world for women. It helped, that is. It helped them be accepted in the future in things that they wanted to do. Of course, we were a group.

01:46:55.640 - 01:47:16.640

We were not known as individual flyers like those who had gone before, you know, Mia Earhart, Jacqueline Cochran, etc. But as a group, we really opened things up in the military for women. It is gratifying to know that they appreciate that.

01:47:16.640 - 01:47:37.640

They do express that, and I think that is very nice. I hope that it will encourage young people, if they do get to know about us, that they will see that they have a chance to do what they have a dream to do, what they dream of.

01:47:37.640 - 01:48:10.640

Betty, in life, there are always ups and downs. There are good times and bad times and happy times and sad times. What has gotten you through the sad times? I think having friends and a belief system, just knowing it's going to be okay.

01:48:10.640 - 01:48:36.640

There is something greater than us watching over us. Of all the things that you have done in your life, and you've certainly done a lot of things, what is the one thing that you're most proud of? I think at this point I'll say, other than having those children.

01:48:36.640 - 01:48:55.640

Well, thank you. That would have to come in there somewhere, wouldn't it? Well, it would have to be that I was a WASP. Boy, I could just get really teary over this.

01:48:55.640 - 01:49:10.640

I think you both could. I think you've gotten me. I know you're a questioner, and you know what I'm talking about, because you were one. It's interesting.

01:49:10.640 - 01:49:31.640

Sometimes people will learn, and if they know about it, they'll say, "Oh, were you one of those?" And I'll say, "Well, yes." But very often it's, "What's that?" I appreciate that you and your daughter are getting the word out.

01:49:31.640 - 01:50:09.640

Let me ask you, which will be a lighter question. What is your personal opinion of Jacqueline Cochran? Well, my personal opinion is that although I'm aware that she has been controversial because of her personality, I think that the WASP--and certainly I personally, you asked personally--I owe her a great deal, certainly.

01:50:09.640 - 01:50:35.640

There wouldn't have been any WASP, I'm sure, without her. She was unique in her strength to move on what she wanted to do. She was a very strong woman, and she was not easy to turn away. And so we owe her our allegiance, definitely.

01:50:35.640 - 01:51:07.640

In looking for generations to come, and especially for your grandchildren and now your great-grandchild, what would you like to say to those children who watch this in the future that might encourage them or that might inspire them to achieve something that other people might think is impossible but that you know is not impossible?

01:51:07.640 - 01:51:44.640

Well, if they have a dream, something they feel any passion about, that would just be the thing that would just make everything worthwhile for them, that they should hang on to that dream and not be swayed away from it by anyone. Because there are so many people out there who say, "Oh, you can't do that. That's not possible. It's not been done.

01:51:44.640 - 01:52:01.640

Don't listen. Don't listen to that. Just follow your dream." Is there anything-- Shut that thing off. Did you have physical training? Did you learn to march? Do you remember anything?

01:52:01.640 - 01:52:16.640

Yeah. Yeah. See, you have to prompt me. That's all right. What was that like? Well, we had Albert Fleischman.

01:52:16.640 - 01:52:39.640

Albert Fleischman was a terrific guy. He volunteered for this assignment, the physical training bit. He was a great Jewish guy, you know, and he'd put us through our paces. We liked it. In fact, Kay Gott wrote a book about him. You want to see it before you go?

01:52:39.640 - 01:52:52.640

I'd love to see it. A small book. Oh, yeah. He'd get us out there and put us through all these calisthenics and things like that. Did he also teach you how to march?

01:52:52.640 - 01:53:23.640

We marched. We marched. We marched in the 43-1s graduation ceremony over at Ellington Field. What was that graduation like?

01:53:23.640 - 01:53:48.640

Well, we were out on the field, you know. Did Miss Cochran come to that one also? Do you recall? I don't remember. I don't recall. I remember seeing a picture in a book out at Mary's Hangar.

01:53:48.640 - 01:54:21.640

I said, "Well, hey, that's me." And it was identified as another class, and it was my class at the Wishing Well when we were there for graduation. But it had been identified as some other class, and I said, "No, that's that and that. I know who those are. It's my class." Were there any accidents at Houston while you were there?

01:54:21.640 - 01:54:34.640

Probably. I don't remember, Nancy. I don't remember. Any washouts? Oh, sure. There were washouts. Yeah. How did that make you feel when somebody washed out?

01:54:34.640 - 01:54:52.640

Well, mighty sorry. Mighty sorry for them. We all, I suppose, felt a little. We didn't ever know for sure what was going to happen. But we were all so new at it, you know, and the whole thing was so new. It was kind of a Mickey Mouse operation.

01:54:52.640 - 01:55:16.640

How much pressure did you feel being a woman? And I don't think I've ever asked this to anybody, but being a woman, being a pilot, being an experiment, how much pressure did you feel? None. I was just happy. I was just glad to be there. I liked what I was doing. I didn't think those big thoughts. That's a good answer.

01:55:16.640 - 01:55:39.640

Let me ask you, when you were at Love, did you ever-- We were young. We were young. Did you ever meet Nancy Love? She came to Dallas. She was named--wasn't she commanding officer for the ferrying division or something like that?

01:55:39.640 - 01:55:52.640

Yeah, she was over the WAFs when they started. But I don't remember meeting her. Oh, okay. I just wondered. Me too. Is there anything-- I don't remember she was particularly active. Do you?

01:55:52.640 - 01:56:03.640

I never met her. Of course, you weren't at ferrying, were you? No. What was your longest ferrying trip?

01:56:03.640 - 01:56:24.640

From-- I mean, as far as you left Love, from the time you left Love to the time you got back to Love. Oh, you mean--oh, okay. I was thinking of flight time. No, days. About 12 days.

01:56:24.640 - 01:56:46.640

And how did you pack for 12 days? Well, you can't pack much when you're flying a 51. A briefcase with a change of underwear and a fresh shirt would be about it. No hot rollers, huh?

01:56:46.640 - 01:57:05.640

No hot rollers. I'm sure there must have been rollers. I don't know. Maybe not. I just kind of wanted to fill in some of the-- Not even curling irons either. Is there anything that we've left out that you'd like to talk about?

01:57:05.640 - 01:57:26.640

I called Mary Helen. And she says, "I was tired when they got through." "It was really nice, though." She says, "They're really nice." She says, "But after they left," she said, "I've been thinking of all those things I could have said."

01:57:26.640 - 01:57:39.640

Why didn't I tell them that? But she has a lot to tell. She does have a lot to tell. Her growing up in Sand Springs is wonderful. She was great. But so have you been great.

01:57:39.640 - 01:57:56.640

Well, I appreciate that. A wonderful time. I just feel I don't have the really unique experiences that some of the gals do. They really tell wonderful, funny tales, you know.

01:57:56.640 - 01:58:11.640

But you're an inspiration for kids for generations to come. And we thank you for that. We thank you for being one of us. And you're one of us, too, Nancy.