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Oh, and we will be asking you which one is your favorite child. I don't have any favorites. That's the right answer. You've now given the right answer. That's something I don't have a favorite.

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They're special in a different way, aren't they? Yes, they are. They're different, that's for sure. You just love them for who they are. That's right.

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and remembering the pains. Hi, I'm Deney Perry. Okay, I'm going. I'm Deney Perry.

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Hi, Deney. With Wings Across America. We are in the studios of Wings Across America at Baylor University.

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Today we are interviewing Betty Turner. She was a WASP during World War II, class 44-9. Today is October 9, 2002.

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Okay, Betty, we're going to start off I'll ask you your full name and when and where you were born. Okay, Betty Stagg Turner, and I was born in Columbus, Ohio in September the 12th, 1922.

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Okay, tell me about your mom and dad. Well, first I remember about mother and dad, we lived on a sort of a farm out in the country. It really wasn't a farm, it was out in the country where we had chickens and stuff.

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And I can remember mother as a very gentle person. She's very considerate. And dad, I remember him not too much because he passed away when I was seven.

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But he too was a very gentle person. And I remember they were very considerate. I had two brothers, and they were very considerate of us. very nice. I think I really enjoyed, you know, having them for parents, especially my mother

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who I knew better than any, you know, than my dad. But dad died in 1930 when I was seven years old. And it was pretty much of a blow to me because as I understand it and was told, he spoiled me rotten when I was a child. He always wanted a girl and when he got one, You know, he's the one that named me Betty.

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My name was really Marguerite. And he liked the name of Betty. He always talked about Betty. And that's, I mean, that's how I remember him, you know.

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What did he do? Dad was, well, he was a machinist originally, but he worked, he, they said that when he in World War I, that he used to be a mechanic on airplanes and he had turned, they said he had, I understand he had turned, spun a propeller for, you know, to start when they

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had to do that. And he, the engine cocked and he was thrown around. And as I understand it, a valve was pulled partway out of his heart. And so he had a lot of trouble with his heart. And he also had a goiter and they, up at the Veterans Hospital in Dayton, he had surgery and they didn't know in those days to cool people down from, you know, the

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goiter. So they operated on him and they said it blew his heart. He died about, I guess, about a month and a half after surgery. And that's what really killed him. But he had a bad heart trouble. What did your mom do after your dad died?

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After dad died, I think we lived with my grandmother for a while, and mother worked at the Colonial Fuel Company. It was a coal company as secretary. Then she got us a place.

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My younger brother and I were put in an orphanage because the aunts thought we were too much for grandma. My mother didn't know about it. She got us out.

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She took us out of the orphanage a year later. Then I lived with my aunt out in South End for a while. Then mother got an apartment. not an apartment, but she lived with another family that had a place upstairs.

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And we lived up, we had a sort of a, it was like an apartment upstairs. It was a kitchen, you know, and two bedrooms, one for my brothers, and one for mother and I. And that's what she, I mean, she continued working all the time,

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supporting us as best she could. Tell me about the orphanage. What do you remember about that? About the orphanage, I remember it was very nice. It was St. Vincent's Orphanage out on East Main Street in Columbus.

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And I remember it was the Franciscan nuns were there. And they were very kind to us, I thought. But I remember wearing, in those days, it was about 1932, the clothes that they were giving to them for us to wear,

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We had high-top shoes that buckled over, and the shoes came about up to my knee. I don't know about my brother, but I remember the shoes came up to my knee,

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and the nuns were very, I thought, were very kind to us in that way. I know Mother used to come out on Sundays to see us, and we were only allowed to have visitors,

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I think, every other week because of the children. A lot of them didn't have families. And mother used to come out and she'd bring the Sunday paper, all wrapped-- I mean, all rolled.

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And in it, she would have apples and oranges and bananas and some candy bars. And she would meet me. I was out in front.

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I'm sure the nuns knew about it because I was never bothered. But I used to meet her out in front and she would give me the paper, the roll of paper, and then I would mention to my brother

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during lunch or dinner, whenever it was, I'd point up, and that way he knew to meet me up at the school room, and I'd give him half of everything. She always had two sets of comics in there, too.

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And she, I used to give him half of it, because boys and girls weren't associating then too much. I mean, we didn't play together or do anything together. So that's how I would see him.

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And I'm sure the nuns knew about it. They couldn't help but know because we did it every time. And they were, you know, that way they were very kind to us. While you were in the orphanage, did you start school?

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Oh, I was in the third and fourth grade there. Well, mostly the fourth grade there, half of the third and the fourth grade there. Yeah, well, they had a school. - Oh yeah, they had a school.

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- Let me back up and ask you where you started school. - Well, I started school, I remember at St. Augustine's Church. I was in the first grade.

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And then in the second grade, we moved down, that's when we moved to, with Grammel. And I went to the second grade at St. Peter's. And then the third grade, and half of the third grade,

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and then the third and fourth grade, I was at St. Vincent's Orphanage. And then when I went out with my aunt, I went to about the fifth, sixth grade at Corpus Christi.

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I think it was the fifth grade, Corpus Christi Church. And then I went back with grandma again, and I was at St. Peter's for the sixth and seventh grade. And then mother got that apartment place,

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and I finished the eighth grade at St. Augustine's again. And then in high school, we had a, shared a house with another lady, which we had the upstairs,

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and I went to McKinley Junior High for my ninth grade, and North High for the 10th grade, and then mother, well, my aunts got, my Aunt Marguerite got together with mother

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and sent me to, I finished school at St. Aloysius Academy in New Lexington, Ohio, the 11th and 12th grade. So I kind of got around for school. - Right.

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While your dad was still alive and you were together as a family, what was a Christmas like? Do you remember Christmas?

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- Yes, I do. I remember one Christmas up on Sail Road where dad had the house. That was on Sail Road in Columbus.

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I have a picture of it too. For Christmas wasn't very well. Dad worked, as I said, as a machinist. I can't remember, I used to remember the name of it,

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a forward bearing company or something like that. That was down on Cleveland Avenue. Christmas that year, I remember my brother, I don't know what my brother Don, the oldest brother,

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who's seven years older than me, what he got, but I remember Dick got a train and I got a doll. And that's just about what our Christmas was and we were so happy to have it,

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and a beautiful Christmas tree, I remember that. But that's not what Christmas was like. I remember one day I was taking a nap on the couch and Dad came home early one day

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and Mother asked him what happened. He said that they were laid off. And he had stopped a friend, he had a friend in the car and they had stopped to get a beer on the way home,

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which was a nickel at that time. And while he was in there, he had bought groceries and everything, and while he was in there, somebody came and stole the groceries out of the car.

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Now, that was hard times in 1929. And people, you know, didn't have much money or food, and if every opportunity they could get, you had to be careful, but that, I guess,

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evidently didn't lock the car. And he came home, and all the groceries were gone, And I remember hearing mother crying out in the kitchen about it. And I awoke and was on the couch listening to them.

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And she was feeling bad and dad was really upset too. When you started school while your dad was still alive, how far did you live from school and how did you get there? I don't remember.

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I'm not sure how I got to St. Augustine. It was quite a while. We lived north of that, which I thought then was way out in the country. Of course, now when I went to look for the street, I was shocked that it was so close

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into town. But it was, I don't remember how I got there unless Dad dropped me off on the way to work or what. I can't remember really how I got to school there.

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Do you remember your first car? My first car? Your family. Oh.

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Well, the first car that I remember was a Model T Ford. And I got a picture of me sitting on the running board as a little kid. But I think it was a Model A after that. Then the next car I think was a Model A. Those are the only two cars I remember.

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Tell me about your grandparents, Betty. Well my grandmother was, my grandfather, he died in 1929 I think. He was a quiet man, his name was Augusta, and Augusta Burke, and he was a very, to me he was real tall and very, very thin, and a very quiet man.

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As I understand, he's the one that built Grandma's house, and the house I was born in, which was across the street from there. Grandma was a very kind person. I remember her as always being very gentle.

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She did a lot of work. She canned all the food, I mean a lot of the food. As far as I remember, they were very kind people. A grandpa died in 1929 while we were still living there, I remember.

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I don't know why, he died in bed upstairs and I was always afraid to go upstairs after that. lived until 19, I think when, she lived to 1947 I think, she passed away then. Do you recall her visiting your home, or do you recall spending the nights with her?

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How close were you to her? We were very close because we lived with Grandma, but I don't think Grandma ever visited our homes. She didn't have any transportation or any way to do it, but I do remember visiting with

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her. My Aunt Margrethe, who is my mother's younger sister, lived with her. She stayed single to take care of Grammell. She was there at the house at the time, too.

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I think I lived with Grammell twice, when I was a little kid and then once when I was in high school. Well, I might have thought it was high school, but I guess it was when I was in the seventh grade,

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sixth and seventh grade there. And it was-- I thought it was very pleasant. We were-- you know, we kids were very free to do things. My grandmother had a sister who's Aunt Molly from Chicago,

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and she used to come and visit her a lot. I remember that I used to get in, we had a sort of a dresser buffet in the kitchen, the kitchen was huge. And they had a junk drawer in there and I used to love to go through that junk drawer.

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My Aunt Molly one time when she was talking, she always talked so fast I couldn't understand what she was saying, how they do from Chicago, I don't know if they still do, but to me it seemed fast. I remember her saying, "Nora, get that child's listing to us.

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Get her out of the kitchen." And she'd say, "Molly, she's only in the drawer over there." "Well, she's listing to us." I don't know what she was saying.

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I couldn't understand her. But Grandma was, you know, it was really pleasant living there. A lot of the hobo-- see, they lived down in Milo, which was about four or five blocks from the big car barns

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where all the trains came in. And she used to have quite a bit of hobos come up there in the 30s, you know, for food. And she always fed them on the back porch, and that was interesting because they used to tell us stories about their travels back there.

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As a young child, do you remember having chores to do? Did you help with the cooking or the cleaning? No, not really. Not as very young.

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I guess I really didn't. I don't remember ever having to do that. I know that when Grandma canned tomatoes, we used to have to sort of core them or something

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until we started eating them and then she got us out of there. But I really don't remember ever having a whole lot of chores when I was a little kid.

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- When there would be celebrations, for example Christmas or Thanksgiving, Would your family all gather together for dinner? - Yes, we always did at Grandma's.

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She had a long kitchen table, well, to me it was real long, kitchen table in the kitchen. And their kitchen was real big, and then off to the side was a small place.

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It was a small room where there was a sink and a stove and things like that, that was off to the side. So she had a long table, and the family used to get around there all the time.

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Thanksgiving, Christmas always. And birthdays, they always celebrated birthdays. - Do you remember one special food that you look forward for these celebrations?

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- No, but I can remember my mother, or my grandmother used to say about my brother Dick, the younger brother, and I, that all we needed was mashed potatoes and gravy

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and we were happy. I can't remember a whole lot about it, about the food then when we were little kids. Did you have a cow? No, we didn't have a cow.

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That was where we lived up on Sale Road, we just had chickens then. And then of course when Dad took Roleil, that's when we moved in with Grandma. It hurt him to do that. He worked for my uncle in a filling station.

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And then that's when he passed away. We were grandmas when he passed away. Do you recall how you felt when he passed away? Yes.

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I don't think that, I don't think it hit me exactly what happened, but in those days they didn't lay people out too much in the funeral homes. And he was laid out in the parlor, Grambles Parlor. And I can remember looking at him.

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We had a dog named Tippy, and after Dad died, the dog disappeared, just ran away. We don't know what happened to it. And I remember thinking, you know, everything was sort of falling apart. I mean, it just, well, I think that I felt that everybody was sort of picking on me in

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a way because I used to cry a lot for Dad because, you know, whenever, like I said, they said he spoiled me rotten. And I didn't have anybody to run to. And that, I think that was lonesome.

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And I got to the point where I didn't talk much. I think that's when I sort of grew up a little bit about being independent. I had depended so much on dad that I think I became a little independent at seven years of age.

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How much older were your brothers? One was seven years older. Don was seven years older and then Dick was only about a year and a half. He was born in '24 but he was born early and about a year and a half younger than me.

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After you lived at your grandmother's then for a year and a half and then went to the orphanage, do you recall how you felt about leaving your mom? Yeah, well, it was lonesome. I'm sure that I must have felt bad about it.

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But I can remember my father, what was his name, Hedinger, he became Bishop of Columbus later, but he was a young priest there. I always felt that if I got a hold of him, he could get me home again. And I remember in the hall one day that I saw him coming down the hall and boy I tore

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after him and grabbed him around the legs, you know, it was so short. And I can remember him saying to the nun, "Sister, will you please get this child off of me?" And then there was another time I saw him coming down the hall and he saw me and he

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turned around and went the other way. Later when I met him when he was Bishop of Columbus, I often thought about asking him, "Do you remember the kid that used to get you, you know, stop you in the hall there at St. Vincent's?"

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But I never got a chance. But I remember that, that I wanted, you know, please, I begged him to send me home. And also, I still, I kept in contact with the nuns there. Later on, when I was in high school, we had an indoor pool there.

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It was about four foot deep. I went back to St. Vincent's and taught children how to swim later on when I was in high school there, the indoor pool. When you were in the orphanage, how many children were in one room as far as sleeping?

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We had a dormitory, and it was a big dormitory. And I remember the nun that was in charge was Sister Hale Saunders was her name. I think she was part Indian because as far back as I can remember her, she always reminded me of the features.

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But she was in charge at night and I can remember after, I don't know if I should tell this, but after, when I got there I guess being felt deserted or something, I used to wet the bed and I remember she'd come down, you know, and she always felt the sheets for each one of us and I would get up in the middle of the night and dry out the sheet, you know,

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So she wouldn't find it, but later on I realized if I go to the bathroom the last very last minute I wouldn't do that, but she was always I mean she used to have her the white cords have hung down She'd come down the hallway swinging it like that. You know time to go to sleep, and I remember that but she was very Very kind I think she never hit anybody or you know or anything, but she was her voice was enough

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Have you kept in touch with any of the other children at the orphanage? No, I did for a while, but I haven't lately. It's been a long time. I haven't kept in touch with any of them, just one I used to because later on I saw

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her down at the academy, but she too was down there. When you left the orphanage and went to live with your aunt and started a different school, tell me about having to adjust to go to all these different schools. Sometimes it depended on what they were teaching at the time.

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I know I would get at one school and what I didn't have they were finished with, a subject I didn't have. Other times, some of the subjects, like math, I remember I got math real well because what I had already, they were just starting in.

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It just seemed that way. I had to adjust. I don't know why, but I didn't seem to have too much of a problem adjusting to meeting new children.

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I guess I got used to it. I never made real close friends at that time because you don't know them too well, or you don't know them too long. But that's what my biggest problem was, not having a subject that they'd already

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had and finished that way. I think the sisters were real kind to me because they helped me, realizing that I had just come from another school. During those early years, how did you spend the summers?

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I spent the summers, well the one with my aunt, always at the swimming pool. They had a daughter that was seven years younger than me, and I sort of babysat her while they worked. And so we always went to the swimming pool and spent the day.

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In fact, most of my youth was spent at the swimming pool all day. And I really learned how to swim and dive real well. And I mean, that wasn't too bad for me. And growing up, were you really close to your brothers?

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Yes I was, very close, especially my younger brother. I remember when we were, I guess I was about nine and he was eight, I always protected him. If the boys got after him, I'd beat them up.

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In fact, I was sort of a tomboy because most of the children I played with, most of the kids were boys. I mean, there weren't too many girls at the time. And I could do anything.

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They could do climatry or just do anything. And so they sort of know that they couldn't pick on my brother, because I would tear into them. I learned to really fight with them.

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And at St. Peter's, too, it's mostly Italians, and I really, I mean, you know, I really learned from them how to fight, too. In the wintertime, when there was snow and ice, did you learn some of the winter sports? Well, no, not too much.

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a child because in those days we really didn't have the opportunities in sports so much. I don't remember having too much sports. We did a lot of sledding and that's just about all. I mean we had sledding, but I don't remember being in sports too much then.

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elementary school. Do you remember a favorite teacher? Yes, Sister Mary Ann was when I was in the sixth and seventh grade. But I remember her most because she used to come out on the grounds and be with us. We'd put her on a sled and dump her into

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a snow thing. She didn't seem to mind at all. She was really, really, but I don't remember, let's see, the Sister Mary Ann, and well in high school Sister Isabel, which I still, she's about 94 years old, and she, I still write to her. Why was she special?

00:28:04.920 - 00:28:25.080

Because she, at the, at the Academy she took time to talk to me, and we would talk for a long time over things, you know, that we both liked. She was, I also found her real name in a book one time and

00:28:25.480 - 00:28:40.700

went to her with it and she just said, "Don't tell anybody." I found a graduation book that was there in the library. But she just seemed to, I don't know, we sort of had things in common to talk about. When I say in common,

00:28:41.500 - 00:28:57.420

I don't mean lives, but I just like to talk to her. And even later on, I still write to her and we talk about things that we did. And she always encouraged me to do a lot of reading

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and anything I was involved in. Sister Isabel Riley is her name. She's from New York and she became Mother Provincial. One time she was over all the Franciscans.

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She was in Rome. I think that's another thing. When I went to Rome, we wrote about that. We had that in common, 'cause she lived there

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and was, as I say, the mother provincial over the whole order all over the world. And then she, of course, she got older and retired. But she's, we still, of course, Mon.

00:29:37.980 - 00:30:00.980

While you were in the orphanage, how did they celebrate Christmas? Well, I remember that Santa Claus came in, I remember, and we all gathered together, and in the bag he took out one gift for each child. And I got a book of fairy tales. I remember that. Anderson fairy tales.

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And it was real enjoyable. The kids just loved it. Did they have some kind of a religious program or anything? Did you ever participate in that? - I don't really remember anything about that.

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We didn't, they didn't push us. A lot of the children, I guess a lot of the children, probably some of them weren't Catholic. And they took all children.

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In those days, most of the orphans were children with, without parents or with just one parent. But I don't remember being pushed into religious things at all, that I can remember there. I really don't remember too much about that.

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And the schools that you attended, did elementary go through sixth grade? Eighth grade. Through eighth grade? Uh-huh.

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What was your favorite subject in those eight years? I always liked math. I think math was one of the reasons I liked it. I figured if you learned it right, you couldn't be wrong,

00:31:13.580 - 00:31:28.040

if you got the right subject. And geography I remember liking a lot. Places that I-- I remember in the orphanage. It was on Main Street in Columbus.

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And I always thought that if I ever got up to High Street and cross the river, the Scioto River, I'd be in another country. I don't know why I thought the other countries were so close, but I can remember that, that someday I wanted to go up there and cross that river and be in another country.

00:31:49.300 - 00:32:04.120

But I loved geography, geography very much, and math. When you finished the eighth grade, was there a graduation? Yes, that was at St. Augustine's. I think I got a picture of us in the graduation.

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I think we had robes and a little hat. It's silly looking now, but a little hat. We had graduation. And then from that you went into high school?

00:32:18.680 - 00:32:29.260

I went to junior high. That was McKinley Junior High. That was the ninth grade. Now see, the public schools went to the sixth grade, and then they took the three years

00:32:29.260 - 00:32:50.620

and McKinley, which was a junior high. I went to the ninth grade there, junior high. During that ninth grade, were there other things that you participated in in school? For example, sports, or speech, or drama, or any outside activities?

00:32:50.940 - 00:33:11.960

No, I don't remember too much of any sports there. I had to walk to school and it was quite a distance. And I just don't think I had time afterwards. I tried to get home after school because Mother then worked for the OPA, the, where the ration

00:33:12.080 - 00:33:23.420

stamps and stuff. And she always wanted me to be home early, right after school, so I never really participated in sports there. Would your brothers walk home with you?

00:33:24.000 - 00:33:42.380

No. Dick, I don't remember where Dick went to school. I think he he might have gone there But I don't remember them that and of course Don was seven years older than me. He was out of school So you just went that one year to junior high yeah to junior high

00:33:44.000 - 00:34:04.040

Then I went to North High yes for the 10th grade and that was a That I had to take a bus to go to school there We couldn't afford the Catholic schools because there was always tuition, but Then I went yeah, that's when I I took a bus to school there

00:34:04.560 - 00:34:29.720

So that was the first year that you went to a public school. No, the the first year was the 10th The ninth grade because McKinley junior high was a public school and so was North High The two years public school. Did you find that to be a big adjustment for you? Not really I don't remember it being because some of my friends too, you know, that I went to school

00:34:29.820 - 00:34:45.980

with in the eighth grade had gone there too. What was the difference, what do you recall the difference was between going to a Catholic school and then going to a public school? Well in the Catholic school we were really disciplined.

00:34:47.400 - 00:35:06.320

We had to get in line and march to school and march out to the street, and then we could disperse. I think there was a lot more discipline there at the Catholic schools, as I remember. I learned a lot of etiquette, too.

00:35:06.720 - 00:35:23.960

They taught us etiquette in the Catholic schools quite a bit. And as far as your dress, had you been in uniforms? No, the only uniform I had was when I was at the academy. They didn't have uniforms in those days.

00:35:24.880 - 00:35:37.280

Did your mom make your clothes? Yeah, Mother made quite a few clothes. I remember she always liked, she always thought that children should have shorter dresses and everything.

00:35:37.670 - 00:35:58.560

I remember in grade school when I was at St. Peter's, we wore black bloomers. And they came down to the knee and mothers came, the dress came to here and the nuns would say, "Go home and get you a longer skirt, you know, your bloomers are showing." Mother would say, "Go back to school, this is the way I want the dress."

00:35:58.560 - 00:36:24.540

So I kind of got it from both ends until the nuns finally gave up. But all I had to do was I probably pulled the bloomers up, but they had bloomers in those days, you know, black bloomers that you wore under your clothes. Betty, in those years, did you ever feel that you were less than some of the other girls

00:36:24.660 - 00:36:40.200

who might have had more? Well, I don't remember thinking about it. The one girl, Norma Grass, was a close friend of mine. I've known her since I was five because my mother worked with her father at the Colonial

00:36:40.200 - 00:37:06.820

fuel company and they would invite us. I got to know her. She had everything. She was real wealthy, well to me, she was real wealthy. And I can remember her mother asking if I could stay and spend the weekend and she had a whole closet full of dresses. I mean, it was just loaded with all kinds of dresses. And so to go to church on Sunday, she told

00:37:06.820 - 00:37:29.920

me I could pick one of the dresses and every time I picked one, well that's the one I was going to wear. I remember. So finally I said, "Why don't you pick yours first?" So they always let me pick a dress out to wear to church and I just loved trying on her dresses. I remember that. But it didn't seem to bother me. I mean, I don't remember

00:37:29.960 - 00:37:59.660

it bothering me too much. But I liked to go there because I loved to see those dresses. at all kind of dresses. In high school, what outside activities did you participate in? Well, I, especially in the summer, of course, I did a lot of swimming and then I was just trying to think. I, in the McKinley and North, I think I didn't participate too much in sports

00:37:59.660 - 00:38:11.320

because I had to get home. Mother always, she always worried about us being there. And I don't think those two years that I participated in much sports.

00:38:13.440 - 00:38:27.880

- In high school, what was your dream? - Well, I can remember I wanted to be a nun. I think I wanted to be a nun at the time because I thought so much of Sister Isabel.

00:38:27.900 - 00:38:39.100

That's when I was at the academy, I thought about it. And she would always say, "Well, wait and see." You know, of course, they do, they don't try to push-- I mean, I've never been pushed into it.

00:38:39.740 - 00:38:51.460

But I really wanted to be a nun, and I wrote to-- I decided that if I was going to be one, I might as well be a missionary. And so I wrote to the Sisters of Our Lady of Africa,

00:38:52.900 - 00:39:04.280

because their habit was so much like the Franciscans. I think that's what-- And I had written to them and they said, "Well, wait, you get out of high school, see how you feel and everything."

00:39:04.280 - 00:39:24.140

Well, when I got out of high school, I went out to the field and took my first flying lesson and that finished the nun business. I decided then I wanted to fly. But I think that was one of my big ambitions was to go into the missionary missions at

00:39:24.260 - 00:39:47.100

first. When you decided to go out to the field to fly, what stirred that interest in you? Well, I can remember as a child at Grambles, the airlines used to go over to her backyard from Port Columbus, and that was the TAT, the Transatlantic Transport, the first passenger

00:39:47.200 - 00:39:57.440

planes. And I used to, every time they went over, I used to stop whatever I was doing, we played in the backyard and I would watch it. And I just dreamed about it.

00:39:57.560 - 00:40:14.020

And then my aunt and uncles, grandma and all of us kids used to go out to the airport on Sundays. That's how we spent Sunday afternoon, going out there watching planes take off and land. And I always wanted to go up in one.

00:40:14.820 - 00:40:31.040

And the one chance I would have had was when my uncle was going to take us out and let Dick and I go up in the plane. And he was sort of a young, impatient person. And I had to go to the bathroom and I could hardly still wait.

00:40:31.300 - 00:40:42.660

I was afraid they'd go without me. So I almost had an accident. So I ran upstairs to go and he was so impatient, they took off without me. I came down and he was gone.

00:40:43.260 - 00:40:56.180

And I didn't get to go out in a plane. So that, I totally disliked him after that for going off without me. Okay, we're going to have to stop and change the tape. We've got about a minute here.

00:40:58.460 - 00:41:02.500

Wow. Wow. Wow. How interesting.

00:41:02.580 - 00:41:14.200

I tell you, every time we interview a WASP, I think, "This is the best. Next time, this is the best." Betty, you want to move around or anything? Yeah, I'd better stay.

00:41:14.540 - 00:41:21.980

Just watch your head there. Just stand up. The water's right. Yes. I know your shoulders. You're doing great.

00:41:23.000 - 00:41:30.860

Yes, you are. Wow. We could have had another nun, but then there would have been five less wonderful children. That's right.

00:41:30.860 - 00:41:38.400

Twelve, eleven. Seven less children. You have seven? I thought you had five. I have seven.

00:41:39.090 - 00:41:48.180

I grew up in a family of seven. You did? I think you read the book though. The Mean Man?

00:41:48.420 - 00:41:55.060

Yeah, The Mean Man that took off in the plane. Oh, no, that was my uncle. That was the mean man? Yeah.

00:41:56.240 - 00:42:10.500

What grade were you in at that point? Uh, let's see, I must have been in... I must have been in about the, uh... I don't know, I was just about eight...

00:42:10.520 - 00:42:32.040

I was about ten years old, so I don't know. And that's when he took off and you didn't get to go for a while? No, he took off for the airport. He was a young, I mean my uncle was probably about twenty years older than me, and he loved

00:42:32.120 - 00:42:52.380

to travel, that's all he knew was travel, and he was impatient with children. He had just come back from a vacation or from a travel and stayed with Grandma, that's place he had to go. And I guess little kids, you know, bother you when you're that age in your 30s or something close to that.

00:42:53.600 - 00:43:16.240

And then the next time that you thought about going up in an airplane, how old were you? Well, I was out of high school. Well, I always hoped to fly sometime, but gave it up because We had no money, but when I got a job, I decided that I was going to start saving money and take lessons.

00:43:17.220 - 00:43:32.300

So that's how I got started. Let me go back and finish you through high school. In high school, do you remember a favorite teacher in high school? Oh yeah, I had, well, Sister Isabel, the same one.

00:43:32.820 - 00:43:47.400

She taught me, I think she taught, oh. Well, that was Sister Isabel in this public school? No, she was at the Academy. No, at the public school there weren't nuns.

00:43:47.440 - 00:44:02.640

I mean, they were... No, Sister Isabel, that was my 11th and 12th grade. I think she taught us grammar. Anyway, that's where she was, down at the Academy.

00:44:04.420 - 00:44:21.360

years did you go to the academy? - 1938, '39, and '40 I graduated. - So all of your high school was at a Catholic academy? - No, my high school, the ninth grade, I was at McKinley Junior High.

00:44:21.960 - 00:44:35.020

- And the tenth grade? - And the tenth grade at North High, that was public schools. Then I went down to St. Aloysius in the 11th and 12th grade. What made you decide to go to the Catholic Academy

00:44:35.320 - 00:44:43.820

rather than finish? - Well, it wasn't my decision. It was my aunt and my aunt Marguerite and mother wanted me to go there.

00:44:44.320 - 00:44:55.580

They wanted me to go there mostly, I think, to, you know, for discipline, chill, and they worried about me, you know, at that age, the 11th and 12th grade,

00:44:55.660 - 00:45:05.300

and they wanted me to go down there to, you know, learn more. I don't know why. - Was it a mixed, were there boys as well as girls?

00:45:05.400 - 00:45:20.580

- No, it was, then it was, oh, it was a school for girls. And then that year that I went, the 11th grade, they started the boys in grade school, up to the eighth grade.

00:45:21.160 - 00:45:42.700

There were no high school boys. They started taking boys then in grade school. And we had boarders, and we had girls from, you know, the New Lexington. And there were four of us that—I think four of us in the eleventh and twelfth grade that

00:45:42.720 - 00:45:55.860

were boarders, only four, and the other nine or whatever were from, you know, the towns around. How large were your classes in eleventh and twelfth grade? Not very big.

00:45:56.100 - 00:46:14.940

I think there were maybe, I'd say 15, if that many, in the 11th and 12th grade, which was good. I mean in my class, which was good because we really got good training. We had to get up in the morning.

00:46:17.960 - 00:46:45.580

I think there was, we had Wednesday and Saturday we didn't have to go to church, but other days we got up and went to mass, and then we had study for maybe a half, no breakfast, and then we had study for maybe about an hour before school started. And then we had school, and then we had recreation for about an hour, and then we had to go into study hall for

00:46:45.700 - 00:47:01.580

two hours, and then we had sort of an evening, you know, maybe about an hour before we went to bed. So, uh... In high school, then, who was your role model?

00:47:03.120 - 00:47:30.740

Did you have a role model? Well, I would say I really thought about the missionary sisters a lot. The ones who were out, you know, helping the poor, I think I really thought a lot about that because that's why I wanted to go to the Sisters of Our Lady of Africa.

00:47:31.980 - 00:47:51.040

I really think that, you know, helping others like that in missions is really a role that I wanted to do. When you were going to the academy, your mom was still working. Did your brothers, who are now ahead of you, and the one brother already through school,

00:47:51.160 - 00:48:07.380

did they help with your tuition? Oh no. No, Don was trying to make a living for himself, and then my younger brother, he couldn't. He was a couple years behind me in school.

00:48:09.440 - 00:48:27.260

They didn't go to the academy. What was your graduation like from high school? Down at the academy, it was real special. The whole family came down to see me graduate, and there weren't many of us.

00:48:27.590 - 00:48:40.120

I think it was a real nice, real happy thing. I was finally out of high school. Did you have caps and gowns? Oh yeah, we had caps and gowns and big diplomas.

00:48:40.340 - 00:48:50.300

I still have my diplomas, you know, about like that. It has a blue cover to it with a page in it. You know, it's real nice. It's a real pretty thing.

00:48:50.960 - 00:49:02.800

What kind of a student were you in school? Not too good. I'll tell you, I didn't learn to study until I went down to St. Aloysius. I got by.

00:49:03.600 - 00:49:13.160

I'll say that. But I didn't know how to study. I, you know, it just, I wasn't supervised, I guess, too much at Grammel's or at my aunt's and them.

00:49:13.860 - 00:49:26.800

And, but when I went down to the academy, I really learned to study because at first, it was funny, we, when I first went down there, gee, I mean, I was finished studying and I,

00:49:27.260 - 00:49:37.480

you know, in study hall, and everybody was studying around me and I thought, gee, I'm all finished, You know, that's great. But then as the year went on, it took me longer and longer and longer.

00:49:37.920 - 00:49:54.060

So finally in study, I almost didn't have enough time, and my grades went up. And I just learned to study. I didn't really know what it was to study too much. I guess going from one school to another, I probably, you know, missed a lot.

00:49:54.440 - 00:50:08.360

I just never learned to study until I went down there. When you graduated from high school, what were your dreams then? Were you still dreaming of being a missionary? I was still thinking about it for a long time.

00:50:08.520 - 00:50:26.700

And then I talked to my mother about it and she said, "Wait one year, and if you still want to go, okay, that's fine. Be out a year, work a little bit, and see what life's like." And of course, like I said, I went out to fly and that was the end of my mission.

00:50:28.160 - 00:50:39.920

After you graduated, did you get a job? Yes, I got a job. Let's see, my first job was with the Atlantic Tea Company, which was the A&P stores.

00:50:40.620 - 00:50:55.580

And I worked because I liked math so well. I worked as a bookkeeper there. And not a bookkeeper there so much as working on figures. I worked in figures.

00:50:55.760 - 00:51:12.900

I don't know what you'd call us there, because I would work out pages of math and stuff. Remember that? When you decided you wanted to learn to fly, do you know what gave you that desire?

00:51:13.240 - 00:51:29.120

Did you know any other girls who flew? No. I decided that when I saved enough money, I was only making twelve dollars a week. I remember I had to have out of that lunch money and car fare.

00:51:30.340 - 00:51:48.680

And then I was living at that time, I was living with my brother and his wife, my older brother. And mother was living there too. And I had to, I paid her, I paid I think nine dollars a month rent.

00:51:49.020 - 00:51:59.800

And I mean, you know, board. And that was for my food and everything. So I didn't have too much money left each week. I got paid weekly.

00:52:00.600 - 00:52:24.420

And then I would take so much and lay it aside, and when I got enough for one hour, like six dollars, I think it was six dollars, it was eight dollars dual and six dollars solo. And I quit eating lunch, and I was skinny anyway, so it didn't matter, and I wasn't hungry and I would save money that way.

00:52:27.040 - 00:52:56.300

I mean, I wore, it was funny, in those days they didn't have junior sizes and everything, so I had to go to the children's department and get the biggest dress I could find and it used to burn me up because I always wore, it seemed like little girls clothes in the highest. I was so thin, you know, so skinny. But anyway, I used to save money and go out.

00:52:56.880 - 00:53:27.280

My first time I went out there, that was quite a story, Gomer Jones was the manager of the airport. He told this one instructor, his name was Frenchy Balchard, and he told him to take me up. And Franchi did not believe in women flying. And I remember him sort of grumbling a little bit to himself and he said, "Well, all right." And he took me up and

00:53:27.760 - 00:53:46.300

I thought it was just wonderful taking off and going up and looking. I was real shocked that they, how the fields were cut even, you know, up and down and all that stuff. I was looking and all of a sudden he went into a spin. And I held onto the seat and I thought, "What happened?"

00:53:46.300 - 00:54:00.540

And then he looped it and then he did a barrel, rolled it. And I thought, "My, you know, this is all." I was getting half sick and I was holding onto the seat and closing my eyes and then he had fly straight and level and I loved it.

00:54:01.400 - 00:54:12.220

So when he finally brought me down I was really, my stomach was in a mess. I remember getting out of the plane and running for the bathroom and I went in there and I cried. I cried real hard.

00:54:12.250 - 00:54:26.020

I threw up and everything. But I was crying so hard and I was so, then I got mad. And I thought, he's done, you know, I found out later when I, I mean, at the time I said, what did you do?

00:54:26.120 - 00:54:36.800

And then he was telling me, you know, that was a spin and stuff like that. I didn't like it. Anyway, I remember coming out and I dried my eyes. I didn't want him to know that I was crying.

00:54:36.920 - 00:54:45.860

I washed my face. And he came out and he says to me, he says, well, he said, I guess you don't want to fly now, do you? And I said, yes, sir, I do.

00:54:46.280 - 00:54:58.640

Like that. He looked at me, he says, damn, I'm gonna teach you. So he took me out and taught me to fly and he's so lonely. But I remember that, oh, I was heartbroken.

00:54:58.740 - 00:55:09.120

I thought I wasn't gonna get to fly. And he did. What did your mom think about your writing? Mother was really, she never said much, but she was behind me in it.

00:55:09.300 - 00:55:26.080

I think, whatever I wanted to do, I think she, I think in a way she was kind of proud of it, but she didn't say much. I think she was afraid to encourage me too much in case I, you know, stopped or something. I don't know, but I know she, I'm sure she was very proud of it.

00:55:27.520 - 00:55:48.700

Do you have any idea where you got that yearning? No, unless I remember them. I mean, most of my stories about Dad came from my grandmother. She said he was a mechanic, you know, on planes.

00:55:50.460 - 00:56:14.840

I wondered what it would be like to fly during World War I, what it would probably be like. And the fact that Dad worked on him, I had hoped that he was a pilot, but he wasn't. And I learned that he, you know, he, one thing, one story they told me that he said that he always wanted to go out in the plane.

00:56:15.620 - 00:56:30.520

So he was going to go up with, this fellow told him he'd take him up for a ride. And he said when it was time to go, the war ended. And he thought, why should I risk my neck going up? So he didn't go up.

00:56:31.220 - 00:56:41.240

But the war ended before he got a chance to have a ride. And I thought, gee, it must be something. I don't know, I just had the urge. I just wanted to.

00:56:41.540 - 00:56:56.520

I used to watch birds a lot, flying and trying to figure out how they did it. I don't know, I just wanted to. Tell me about your solo flight. The first one with Frenchie?

00:56:57.700 - 00:57:19.420

I remember we shot, we went around and shot landings. I didn't know I was going to solo, and he had me to shoot about three or four landings. And then we stopped at the end of the runway and he gets out. Oh no, he had me taxi back, that's right, at the middle of it.

00:57:20.060 - 00:57:28.920

And then he gets out and I thought, "What's he going to do?" And he says, "Okay, take it around." And I said, "Me? Me?"

00:57:28.930 - 00:57:41.620

He said, "Yes, go ahead." And I thought, "Oh boy." I remember taking off and just doing exactly what I did before, you know, and just pretending he was still there.

00:57:41.940 - 00:57:57.640

I went around and landed. That was the biggest thrill I think I ever had when I landed and did it perfect and everything. I had to make three of them, three landings for him. I was really happy about that.

00:57:58.740 - 00:58:13.680

What did you think you would ever do with those flying lessons? Well, I didn't know. I just wanted to, I really didn't, don't remember thinking too much. I just loved to go out to the field.

00:58:14.680 - 00:58:32.520

And I used to do a lot of, I mean, I'd go out and do, fly whatever, maybe for a half hour sometimes because I didn't have that much money, but I'd sit there and watch a lot of it. And I just, to me, it was just, I didn't know what I was going to do with it.

00:58:32.600 - 00:58:45.780

I had dreams of maybe flying, teaching, or, you know, stuff like that, but I just never thought about it. I just took one day at a time. That's how I did in the WASP, too.

00:58:46.570 - 00:59:10.300

I never dreamed of washing out, but I always just took one day as I could go and learn. Do you recall where you were and what you thought when you heard about Pearl Harbor? Yes, I know where I was. We had just come—I was living with my aunt, and we had just come home from church.

00:59:11.080 - 00:59:41.820

And I always liked the—I'm sure we had breakfast, because afterwards I remember my My cousin June and I, we always stretched out on the floor on our stomachs and read the comics, Sunday comics. My uncle had the radio on, and I remember laying on the floor with the comics and they

00:59:41.900 - 00:59:57.240

said something about Pearl Harbor had been bombed. I remember my aunt saying something and I said, "Well, where's Pearl Harbor?" I didn't know where it was. Well, she tried to explain to me it's part of the United States and I thought, "Well,

00:59:57.280 - 01:00:13.100

I don't remember any state of Pearl Harbor." I mean, I just never thought about it. And then Roosevelt came on right after that, sometime there, and said the United States were in war.

01:00:14.140 - 01:00:31.180

And it just, I mean, we just sat there, you know, I mean, you didn't know what to do. And I thought, "Oh my gosh, war." And I knew so many, you know, friends of mine that would be involved. And then I thought about my brothers, too.

01:00:33.300 - 01:00:48.120

And that's what I was doing. I was stretched down on the floor reading the comics. And then after war was declared, did you keep working for this company with their books and did you keep flying?

01:00:49.080 - 01:01:11.440

Yes, we kept flying, but I remember them saying there were restrictions on the coast where they couldn't fly, and then I thought, "I'm glad I don't live on the coast." Yes, and then a lot of my friends that I met there, we had a dramatic club when I was out there.

01:01:11.600 - 01:01:32.120

I lived out there with my aunt after I graduated while I was working. It was a summer, I remember, the next summer. We had a dramatic club that we had formed out there. We had a woman that was an old-time actress who was directing us.

01:01:32.780 - 01:01:59.160

And we gave a performance down in town at one of the big buildings there where they give shows. And then we went out to the Academy and we put on our show for them, a stage show. And I remember a couple of the fellas that were in it, well no, there were about three

01:01:59.240 - 01:02:13.800

or four that were in it that were good friends of mine. There were three men and two of us girls that used to run around together, you know, go swimming and we didn't date so much. Well, I dated one of them if we went out on a Saturday night for a date.

01:02:14.640 - 01:02:31.040

But I remember them saying that they, you know, were being inducted and, or that they were going to sign up. And it was just our dramatic club fell apart. We had big plans for it.

01:02:31.500 - 01:02:43.220

We all said, well, when the war's over, we're going to form this dramatic club again. And of course, it never did. But my friends went.

01:02:43.380 - 01:02:57.280

And then there was one boy, Don Jander, I remember, I had a crush on. And I was, I really, he was actually my first love because I remember I used to look up to him.

01:02:57.280 - 01:03:10.080

He was such a nice kid, but he never dated me. I mean, I always dated one of his friends or something. He always dated girls that were real sophisticated and everything, but he always treated me real nice.

01:03:10.280 - 01:03:26.680

And he went in service. And I was, I mean, I was really, I felt bad, But he became a pilot, and he flew P-47s. And I remember thinking, "Boy, that would be great."

01:03:26.680 - 01:03:39.300

I mean, that was my ambition then, to get into this, if there was some way women could fly for the service. But I hadn't heard of it then. And then when did you first hear about the program?

01:03:39.300 - 01:04:04.540

I was out at Sullivan Avenue Airport, and I remember somebody, it was either on the radio out there or somebody was talking about these women that were flying for the Air Force. They were, I thought they said Army at first, but they said Air Force, and I thought they were being trained, and I thought, "Gee, how can I get in there?"

01:04:04.540 - 01:04:20.500

And so I asked around and they said, "Write to your senators or your congressmen." So I really found as many as I could, you know, the names. And I got the addresses and I wrote to them and said, "I would like to be a part of your program.

01:04:21.160 - 01:04:32.420

"I'd love to fly, I'm flying now." So I didn't hear from them for a long time. Evidently, I found out that the letters were then turned over to Jackie Cochran.

01:04:33.180 - 01:04:54.460

And that was in, let's see when they started. It probably was the WAFS that I heard about. fairing planes. And then that's when I wrote to the senators and then I waited and waited and I could hardly stand. I think I wrote a couple times and then I

01:04:54.900 - 01:05:27.780

finally got a letter to go to Lockburn Air Base and take a physical. So boy I That's where I met Mary Jones and another girl, I can't think of her name now. We planned that if we passed and everything, if we were called in, we would drive down together because the one girl, she had a car, neither one of us had a car.

01:05:28.700 - 01:05:48.360

And that's where I first toured. But it was out at Sullivan Avenue Airport. How was your physical? was fine. I never had a man examine me like he did, but I would hold, I just held my breath.

01:05:48.450 - 01:06:11.140

I thought I'll go through anything if I can fly, and I remember that. But we all passed our, you know, it was, to me it wasn't too bad, just that one part of it. Then did you have to have an interview? Yeah, then after I passed the physical, then I got a letter to come down to Cincinnati,

01:06:11.540 - 01:06:34.060

or to go down to Cincinnati and get an interview. And I've never been out of Columbus, except once to go up to a shrine up north, but that was with my parents when I was little, or my aunt when I was little. But so I forget, I think I took a bus down to Cincinnati and was interviewed by Mrs.

01:06:34.280 - 01:06:55.540

Sheehy at the Netherland Plaza Hotel there. What did you expect if you were accepted? I don't know. I just hoped that I was accepted.

01:06:55.800 - 01:07:15.060

She talked to all of us at once and then she took each one of us individual. And the questions she asked, I don't really remember what questions she asked. And I didn't know what to expect. I just hoped, and I don't know why, but I always felt that I would be accepted.

01:07:16.000 - 01:07:33.800

I mean, that's the feeling I've had. You know, gee, if I took a physical and that, and then all I had to do was wait. Betty, how did America change when Pearl Harbor happened? What differences did you see?

01:07:35.080 - 01:07:53.820

Well, see, Mom, right away, they started rationing things. Gasoline, food stamps, clothing stamps. And that's when Mother went with the OPA. She was one of them that dispensed them, you know, interviewed people and gave it to them.

01:07:55.240 - 01:08:17.760

I remember things, I don't know why, but it seemed like food and stuff seemed to get scarce and I couldn't figure out why. You know, I mean, I remember my sister-in-law, I was living with my sister-in-law then, and It just seemed like everybody was sort of tensed up.

01:08:20.700 - 01:08:44.080

At the time I was working out at Curtis Wright on final assembly. It just seemed like everybody was sort of nervous about things and excited about what was going to happen. And of course, war didn't, I mean, to us, Pearl Harbor is like another, well, it was

01:08:44.100 - 01:09:07.680

another country, but it wasn't, you know, it didn't hit us, I don't think. But just the fact that we had to ration things, gas, and kids used to talk about it. What made you change jobs and go with Curtis Wright? Well, I think it was to help with the war country, the war, and also I did get more

01:09:07.680 - 01:09:29.520

money at the time and they were hiring and I wanted to get into airplanes. I thought this is one way I can learn about airplanes and I think that's why I went out because it was working on the final assembly, you know, inspection. What was your job? Well I was there to make sure that, well there were parts of,

01:09:29.780 - 01:09:50.560

at first I thought final assembly would be when they're all built and we had to look them over. But what it was, it was parts that were made and they came through us and we had to inspect them to make sure there was nothing wrong with them, that the rivets were okay and whatever, you know, something like that. We were on different parts of the

01:09:50.560 - 01:10:07.560

plane all the time. Were there other females working? Oh yeah, there were almost all females out there then. The majority of them were females. And do you think it was that way before the war started?

01:10:07.880 - 01:10:29.200

No, I don't. No, because before the war started, I think we took, our jobs weren't paying much. Men were more superior. I don't know, it was just, it changed the whole thing.

01:10:30.200 - 01:11:00.800

changed. Women became more, I think we became, I don't know if you want to call it bolder, I don't think that's the word, we became more important in things, you know. We felt that we were really useful, you know, more useful and everything. It just changed, I I don't know, because I met a lot of boys that were in the service at that time, a lot

01:11:00.840 - 01:11:26.880

of fellas, and it just changed everything. How did the war affect your own family? Well, my own family, I was living with my older brother, and it affected him. He didn't go because, let's see, he was 24, 25, but he didn't pass the physical.

01:11:31.520 - 01:11:58.980

It just made him, I don't know, we felt that we had to be careful how we spent money, too. It just seemed, I don't know, everything seemed to be tensed. I don't know how to say it. When I dated, I always brought the fellows home and they talked a lot to my brother and

01:11:59.100 - 01:12:08.020

mother and all of them. Did a lot of your male friends enlist? Yes. Almost everyone I knew enlisted.

01:12:08.480 - 01:12:22.080

And if they made it past the physical, they went in. That's another thing that's sort of wiped out. I mean not wiped out, but we lost friendship. Some of them I never saw again, you know what I mean.

01:12:22.940 - 01:12:37.820

Our lives just changed. How were you notified that you had been accepted for training? It was in the, it got a night letter. I think we had all gone to bed or something.

01:12:39.880 - 01:13:01.640

The doorbell rang and my brother said, "There's a telegram for you, a night letter for you." Everybody got up when I read it and I don't think we went to bed that night again. It was so exciting and then I was trying to plan what I was going to, you know, how I was going to buy my clothes and what I had.

01:13:01.780 - 01:13:17.700

Oh, they gave you a list to bring, which some of the clothes we didn't even use that they had on the list. But I had to plan how I was going to get down there, and then I had to contact this girl.

01:13:18.460 - 01:13:30.200

Why can't I-- Mary Jones remembers her name, but I can't remember it right now. I had to contact her and make plans and everything. Did she get a letter, too?

01:13:30.200 - 01:13:45.180

And she did, and Mary Jones did. But it was really exciting. I don't think we went to bed that night at all, again. - When you told your mom, how did your mom take it?

01:13:45.500 - 01:13:55.440

- She took it real nice. She said that if I needed help, you know, with the money and with clothes, she would help me. But she didn't make a whole lot either

01:13:55.470 - 01:14:06.140

in those days, she didn't. But she was real pleased that I was, you know, that I was doing something I liked. - And how did you get to Sweetwater?

01:14:06.760 - 01:14:27.800

Well, in this girl's car, she had a car that three of us could sit in the front seat and it had a rumble seat. I think we packed our bags into the rumble seat and the three of us took turns driving down the Sweetwater.

01:14:29.600 - 01:14:44.640

I never had a license and I didn't know how to drive. I remember when I found I was going, my brother took me out a few times and showed me how to drive. And whenever I passed anybody, boy, I'd cut right in and he says, "Give them room.

01:14:45.640 - 01:14:59.320

When you pass somebody, keep going. Don't slow down." And he was teaching me different things like that. So I told this girl that, "Oh, yeah, I drove."

01:14:59.320 - 01:15:19.680

And when we'd drive down, I would always seem to get the, I didn't get the cities, thank heavens, the open road. And many times on the way there'd be convoys of soldiers, and so we had to go in between the trucks, and we had a good time waving to them and everything, you know.

01:15:20.260 - 01:15:41.340

But we, it was an enjoyable ride, I remember. It was exciting for me because I had never been that far from home before. Do you recall how your instructor felt when you told him what you were about to do? That I had before?

01:15:42.700 - 01:15:57.400

Oh, they were all excited about it out at the field. They thought that was wonderful. One of the other girls, Betty Levesque had been out flying at that field too, and she went in earlier than we did.

01:15:58.640 - 01:16:22.160

She's passed away now, but she was in about two grades ahead of me, I think it was. They thought it was wonderful that I was going to do that. Once, aside from the one instructor that at first didn't want to teach a girl to fly, Did you ever run into any other instructors who resented your flying?

01:16:22.160 - 01:16:38.360

I never had a problem with any of them. The only one down at Sweetwater was, you probably heard of him, Captain Zabitz, who had washed a lot of the girls back and out. He was an instrument instructor.

01:16:40.640 - 01:16:54.960

When I came up for my instrument check, I had hoped I wouldn't get him because he had washed an awful lot of girls out. I don't think he liked women flyers either. He washed them back.

01:16:55.160 - 01:17:09.120

A lot of your W-10 that were in nine were washed back by him. I came out here, his name was under him. I thought, "Oh my God, this does it." That's the first time I ever thought about Worshnell.

01:17:09.440 - 01:17:30.840

Anyway, he took me up and of course we had the hood, you know, and I tried, I was so scared. I don't know how I passed it, but we did the beam and everything and everything turned out okay and he said, "Okay, go back to the auxiliary field."

01:17:30.840 - 01:17:54.860

We landed at the auxiliary field and he got out of the plane and the way he did it just abruptly and walked into the hangar. I just knew I had washed out. So I sat there and I sort of cried. My nose was running, wiping like that. I mean, I was just a mess. I sat there and I couldn't wait for him to come back. I wanted to find out what happened.

01:17:55.400 - 01:18:16.060

He came back and he had a brass doorknob in his hand that he found in the hangar. And door knob open lots of doors for you. And I had always carried a silver dollar in my pocket that had Mother's birth date, 1893, on it.

01:18:16.760 - 01:18:27.080

So I said, "Oh, thank you," and I reached into my pocket and I said, "Here's a silver dollar for you." I don't know why I gave it to him. I hope this is always good luck to you.

01:18:27.720 - 01:18:46.280

And he took it and he said, "Well, thank you," and he put it in his pocket. And years later, I don't know what reunion it was or anything, but some girl came up to me and she said, "Do you know a man named Zabbits?" And I said, "Yeah, he was a captain out at our field."

01:18:46.280 - 01:19:04.780

He says, "Well, he told me if I ever run into you that he still carries that silver dollar for good luck." And I thought, well, anyway, after he gets in the plane, after I give him that, he said I took off, he said, "Take off," and I did, and then he says, "I'll take the controls."

01:19:04.780 - 01:19:20.840

And he took the plane up as high as he could go and dove it straight down, and I saw the needle going into the red, and I thought, "This is the end. I mean, I passed, and yet I'm going to die." And he pulled it out, and I didn't black out, I red out.

01:19:21.240 - 01:19:36.460

All I could see was red, and I had heard of that, about red out, you know. It's when the blood vessels in your eyes break. And he had pulled so sharp. And then after he pulls it out-- and oh, he flew--

01:19:36.840 - 01:19:50.960

before he did that, he flew on the railroad track upside down because my pencil was hanging up and everything. And I just-- I couldn't-- I mean, I was holding onto the seat and everything.

01:19:51.630 - 01:20:00.700

Anyway, after he pulls out that dive, he told me to take it back to the field. And I could hardly see. I mean, when I got back to the field,

01:20:00.880 - 01:20:07.680

the girls said, what happened? Your eyes were all red. Didn't you pass? They thought I was crying.

01:20:08.320 - 01:20:21.280

I said, yeah, I passed. And they said, well, you look like you're crying. And here, my eyes were all red from the blood vessels. So they healed, but I almost died.

01:20:21.480 - 01:20:39.880

And that was one ride I really-- enjoyed in a way and in a way I didn't. When you and the other two girls drove up to, arrived at Sweetwater in your car with the rumpled seat, what was your first impression of Sweetwater?

01:20:41.080 - 01:21:09.320

Well when we went in, I remember there was this big arch, I mean it was, you know, the sign across Sweetwater, Sweetwater, no, Avenger Field it said I think. when I went in, all we saw was just desert, you know, and everything. And then there was a driveway in. And, well, first we went to the town of Sweetwater. And I think we were

01:21:09.500 - 01:21:33.360

supposed to report there. She'd gotten some gas there at the filling station, and we asked the directions to Avenger Field, and they gave them to us. And it was just sort of desert country. I mean, there wasn't too much there at the time. And we drove way out and found it. And it was just, that's all I can remember was that it was just seemed like, where's

01:21:33.440 - 01:22:07.040

the buildings, you know? We had to go a long drive into the field. And I guess we were just happy to get there, you know. Sort of nice. And when you drove through that archway that said Aviation Enterprises, and the guard gate, and then down the long road, when you first saw that row of airplanes, what did you think?

01:22:08.060 - 01:22:18.060

I think we stopped and stared at them, you know, just looking at them. I think that's what happened. I think she stopped the car. I can remember just sitting there looking at all those.

01:22:18.160 - 01:22:30.180

Are we going to fly that?" You know, it was just a big thrill. It was, you know, it was just something that, I don't know, you just—I think it was sort of like in a dream, too, you know.

01:22:30.430 - 01:22:49.480

You get excited and everything. And then when you drove on in, where did you go to meet? I think we had to go into the office there and check in. I really don't remember a whole lot about it except we were given bays then.

01:22:51.280 - 01:23:07.240

Mary's last name was Rigobuto, so she and I were bay mates. And the other girl, I forget what her name is, but she wasn't in our class. She would have been in flight one, we were in flight two. Okay, we're going to stop and change dates.

01:23:07.500 - 01:23:28.380

Okay. We talked one time at one of the reunions, what was the most common thing? We were trying to figure it out and it was independence, we decided our independence. Let me ask you about the bays. You mentioned the bays. Describe where you lived.

01:23:28.600 - 01:23:50.260

Well, the bays were, you know, a long string of, I guess you say bays, I mean, of, I don't know what we, what you call them, cottages? No, not cottages. Anyway, barracks, yeah, more barracks, doorways.

01:23:52.560 - 01:24:19.540

Our bay, I mean the bays were six women, six women to a bay, and between each bay was one bathroom and two bays were assigned to that one bath. To be honest about it, I never remember a problem of having, of bathing or, you know, using the bay there, I mean the bathroom, from the two bays.

01:24:19.700 - 01:24:40.800

twelve women to one bathroom. I don't ever remember there ever being any problem using that. And in the bays were six of us and we all got along fine. I can't remember any dissension or anything. Did you have queen size beds?

01:24:41.380 - 01:25:14.780

No, we had these cots. I think they were cots with a, with a, with a, with a, with a, with a mattress, one mattress, because you could roll the mattress, you know, when it was empty. But we had just the mattress. I guess we were all happy to have that. And then at the foot of each cot was a locker. And then we also had a place, one that was the size of a door,

01:25:15.400 - 01:25:28.940

closet where we could keep our clothes in. And I forget what we put in the locker, I don't remember. I remember our clothes were folded. We had to have everything folded perfect because we had inspection.

01:25:30.940 - 01:25:45.120

And the inspection was not assigned. I mean, we never knew when we would have inspection. So, but anyway, that's where our clothes were. - Were your clothes in a closet or was it--

01:25:45.120 - 01:26:00.080

- It was sort of like a closet. It was like a, about size, well maybe a little smaller, size of a door and they were long chest like. And then each one of us had our clothes in.

01:26:00.080 - 01:26:08.880

- In a locker? - Yeah, well we didn't, I don't remember having a lock on them. - How large was this bay?

01:26:09.920 - 01:26:34.300

The bay was large enough to hold six cots with enough room, I don't know how much room, maybe that much room between each cot where you could stand up and maybe dress and everything. They were all, I think, four lined and there might have been two at the other end.

01:26:34.300 - 01:26:49.400

I can't remember a whole lot. of your bay mates, how were you different? - Well, do you know Gail Snail? She was one.

01:26:51.560 - 01:26:59.000

Just different. She and I, she was real tall, and she was tall enough to put her arm around my shoulder and they called us Mutt and Jeff,

01:26:59.860 - 01:27:19.040

because we were together a lot. She and I were friends, I mean, we made friends. But there was two of them, Mary Woodwork, and I can't remember the other girl's name. We never found them.

01:27:20.580 - 01:27:40.520

Once they graduated, we never heard of them or heard from them again. And then there was Janet, her name's Janet Tuck now. She was one, Gail and I, and Mary Rigobuto, the six of us. But two of them, like I say, we never heard from.

01:27:40.680 - 01:27:56.080

They're the only two in the class that we can't find, and I tried for years to find them. When you entered training, what were some of the rules? A lot of rules, it seemed like.

01:27:58.400 - 01:28:23.520

Well we had to march to and from everything when it was assigned to us. We had to be on the field, well we couldn't leave the field I think during the week, but on the weekends we had to be back at the field on Sunday night at a certain time. We were not allowed to date any of the instructors, anybody that was affiliated with the field.

01:28:26.560 - 01:28:49.540

We had, let's see, of course Texas was dry and we found this bootleg place out in the middle of a field someplace and we used to go there and knock on the door and it would slide like that and we'd pass in money and they'd pass out a bottle. We were given instructions that if we ever had a bottle that to look on the bottom of

01:28:49.560 - 01:29:07.740

it and if it looked like it had been cut, don't drink it, you know, because it wasn't supposed to be, you know, it might be poison to us. We couldn't, I was just trying to think, if we had an automobile, we... Was drinking allowed?

01:29:08.800 - 01:29:39.660

It really wasn't, but they didn't, if we had it, they didn't say too much to us. I mean, I don't remember anybody, I don't know, maybe some did, but if they did, you know get washed out because of that I don't know. But Gail and I, Gail was all the girls, she had a car and a lot of the kids I know, I'm almost, I was suspicious anyway that

01:29:39.760 - 01:30:01.760

they saw that she got demerits and had to stay on the field so they could borrow her car for the weekend to get out to Lake Sweetwater and everything. So she finally caught on and We used to go and we'd get a bottle and we'd get 7-Up. We'd pour some 7-Up out and pour some of that in and shake it.

01:30:02.340 - 01:30:19.800

And she and I used to sit in her car to make sure it wasn't taken and drink and sing old songs and everything and reminisce about our lives and stuff. We did that whenever she--I felt sorry for her, I mean, being stuck on the field because of demerits on a weekend.

01:30:20.460 - 01:30:33.940

So I used to stay with her sometimes in the field. And then she taught me to shoot craps. We used to do that, and sometimes after the light was out, we'd get out of bed and we'd have pennies and we'd shoot craps for them.

01:30:34.060 - 01:30:48.000

She taught me how to do that. But, uh, I don't re-- The restrictions were just mostly military-like, you know. We had to, like I say, march to and from,

01:30:48.000 - 01:31:08.740

and I can't remember too many of them. What was your dress like when you were in training? Well, I remember first when we went down there, the coveralls they had were handed down from men and we rolled up the bottom, I mean if they were too long, and rolled up the sleeves

01:31:09.120 - 01:31:32.740

and we'd pull the belt real tight. that made them, you know, we called them zoot suits because they fit so ill-fitting. That was mostly what we flew in, and then when we were not flying, we wore khaki-colored pants and white shirts, and the white socks and our shoes that we had, regular shoes which

01:31:32.740 - 01:31:42.060

we flew into. That was mostly our dress. What was a typical day like at Avenger? Well it depended.

01:31:42.980 - 01:32:01.820

When one flight flew in the morning, the other flight was in ground school. And then in the afternoon that flight would fly and the other one was in ground school. So it started out with the bugle blowing, waking us all up, and we quickly had to dress and get out and get in line.

01:32:02.520 - 01:32:18.620

And we marched to the mess hall. And then we come back, we had time to come back and get our, whatever we were going to do, our books if we were going to ground school, or our flight suits, suit suits if we were going to fly.

01:32:19.400 - 01:32:44.400

And then we, and take care of it, whatever we had to do. Then they would blow the bugle again, we had to go out and get in line again, and those march to the ground school or those who were going to fly out to the field. They didn't have to get marched so much as because you had your parachute, you had

01:32:44.420 - 01:32:57.540

to get over to the hangar, get your parachute on. We always had to fly with a parachute. And then they'd see their schedule, we had to go over there and make sure our schedule was set.

01:32:59.060 - 01:33:19.060

Then at noon, everybody ate lunch. If you were back in time, we went to the mess hall, and you would get your lunch. Then afterwards, you had so much time to go back to your bay a minute or so. Then we either went to the flight line or ground school again.

01:33:19.780 - 01:33:37.360

After that was over in the evening, we'd go over to the hall over there, and some would play cards or whatever they wanted to do. Or we'd get maps out and study if we were cross country, you know, and stuff like that. But it was pleasant.

01:33:38.160 - 01:33:47.360

Describe ground school. What did you take in ground school? Oh, we took many subjects. We took, let's see, meteorology.

01:33:53.560 - 01:34:17.280

We had meteorology, we studied code, navigation. There were also classes in aircraft engines. That's when the mechanics would show us around the engine part. Just everything that went with flight.

01:34:17.660 - 01:34:36.780

How about exercise? Oh, that too. There was time during the day when we had to go to exercise. Now, in the summer, which I was there in the summer, for PT, we would go to the swimming

01:34:36.940 - 01:34:56.540

pool on our cattle wagon. The cattle wagons were converted wagons into buses like. That's how we rode to the auxiliary fields and to the swimming pool. We had PT at the swimming pool a lot, where we'd go in and go swimming.

01:34:57.540 - 01:35:16.100

There was somebody there telling us how to do it and everything. Then there were other times when we had to go out onto the field and exercise. We always had one girl, Margaret, I think her name was Margaret Phillips. She had been in the Marines, and they put her in charge of us, and she was really something

01:35:16.360 - 01:35:27.400

else. She would really work us, and we did exercise like that. We had a certain time between flight and ground schools and stuff. I don't remember how, you know, where it was.

01:35:27.960 - 01:35:46.780

- Okay, when you started your flight training, how many of you were assigned to one instructor? - I think there were four, maybe, to an instructor. What was the first airplane that you started flying at Avenger? A PT-17, the bi-wing.

01:35:49.020 - 01:35:57.420

The, what do you call it? Well, anyway, the PT-17. Stearman? Stearman, yeah.

01:35:59.440 - 01:36:11.900

Describe for me your solo flight in a Stearman. What was your instructor like? He was very nice. I can't remember his name now.

01:36:12.300 - 01:36:29.360

A couple years I probably could have remembered. He was a very nice person, I thought, very kind and very patient. My instructor was anyway. I think he was a good instructor.

01:36:31.320 - 01:36:43.020

I had a lot of faith in him. When you were there, as far as weather, what were some of the challenges with the weather at Sweetwater? Well, I can remember the dust storms especially.

01:36:43.320 - 01:36:57.480

That's when we had to put on our helmets and goggles and a scarf around our mouth and go out and hold the planes down. A lot of them, because wind would lift them right up. I remember the dust storms.

01:36:57.620 - 01:37:25.300

In fact, I got some pictures of that, snapshots. And then the other storms, I know that one time I was out in a, I don't remember what plane it was, maybe it was an AT6, it was an AT6, and I was out in the practice area and I saw this storm coming toward, so I waited a little while and finally I thought I better

01:37:25.360 - 01:37:50.420

get back to the field because it was coming right at us. And I came back and I started to land and there was a lot of static on my radio and I heard, I thought I heard my number telling me to go around, my wheels weren't down. So I gunned it and went on around again, came in and I heard this "Army so and so, your

01:37:50.620 - 01:38:06.300

wheels aren't down." And I thought, I took off again and I pulled on the lever and I could feel them hit up there and then I thought I let them down, I thought they could come down and I thought, this time I'm going in, I don't care if the wheels are up or not.

01:38:07.020 - 01:38:31.900

Because I, you know, three times and the storm was coming in. So I went in and landed. And here they had a fire truck out there and they had a couple jeeps and everything and And I landed fine, and my wheels held, and the mechanics, I mean the fellas came in on

01:38:32.020 - 01:38:41.060

both sides of my wings and lifted me out and pulled me out real quick. And I said, "What's the matter? Plane's fine. They came down each time," you know, and everything.

01:38:41.940 - 01:39:01.600

And he just shrugged his shoulders, you know, the guys did the, not the mechanics, but the, you know, the fellas that help you there. And I don't know what happened, I don't know what it was, but they took me back to the office in the Jeep and I still, I mean, nothing was ever said.

01:39:03.620 - 01:39:21.200

But I remember that storm. And then the little dust devils. We used to get over those and boy, we'd shoot right up in the air. The instructors taught us how to get our height in a dust devil.

01:39:22.360 - 01:39:43.240

But outside of that, I never had too much problems with weather. Kelly: In the steermen, how many hours did you get in that vehicle? Lowdermilk Honstein: Gee, I don't remember. We got quite a bit because we had the first phase of training, and then we had our first

01:39:43.240 - 01:39:57.380

a 1,000 mile cross country was in the Stearman. And I don't remember how many hours. I haven't looked at my log book for a long time. While you were in primary, did any of your bay wash out?

01:39:57.720 - 01:40:10.060

Yes, that one girl that I told you about went down with us, and I don't know how many washed out in that phase. I know she did, but nobody in our bay did. We were pretty good.

01:40:10.440 - 01:40:28.800

Six of us stayed as we were. When you finished primary training, did you have some time off then before your next phase? Yeah, we were supposed to have like a couple days off. And then what phase did you go into?

01:40:30.840 - 01:40:49.120

We went into basic, I think, primary and basic. It was the BT-13. That's a 450 horsepower. We learned to fly that before instruments, because that's what we took our instruments

01:40:49.380 - 01:41:06.140

in. Describe what instrument training is all about. Well, we had to learn to fly with the hood overs and learn to fly exactly by what was on the instrument panel.

01:41:08.050 - 01:41:29.080

I don't recall a whole lot except that that's how we learned to fly under the hood. To me, it wasn't that complicated. And we also, I think, we had books too to read. But it just seemed like I had a good instructor.

01:41:29.140 - 01:41:49.440

I don't remember his name now, but he was good. He was a kind person. Betty, what was the biggest adjustment that you had to make when you were at Avenger? I think my biggest adjustment was getting through.

01:41:50.620 - 01:42:12.480

I never thought, I don't know why, but I never thought about washing out. All I could think of was just doing everything I was taught and trying to learn everything as I was taught. I didn't do too much socializing because I wanted to study.

01:42:13.500 - 01:42:22.980

I loved flying. I loved the ground school part. It was just learning. I loved just learning what they were doing.

01:42:25.480 - 01:42:38.500

I think the biggest adjustment too was homesickness. I remember on Sunday I would get in line to get the phone and I'd finally get it and I'd call mother. The minute she said hello, I was fine.

01:42:39.220 - 01:42:51.900

And I'd say, I just wanted to call and see how you were. Now we're going to Lake Sweetwater, goodbye. But as soon as I heard her voice, I was fine. And she'd always say, well, I'll send you some money

01:42:51.900 - 01:43:04.360

or something like that. And she would send a couple dollars or something. But I think homesickness was the one big thing that I did. And then, like I say, all I had to do was hear mother's voice.

01:43:04.480 - 01:43:21.820

and I was fine. She would send you money, but were you also getting some payment? Yeah, but it was very small. Out of that, we had to pay for clothes if we bought any, and I think they took, I can't

01:43:21.860 - 01:43:37.720

remember, but I thought they took a little bit out for board or something. Seemed to me that way. I'm not sure. On weekends, were you ever involved with the people of Sweetwater, for example?

01:43:37.900 - 01:43:52.780

Did you go to church? What they did, they had a priest come out. He was a Franciscan, I think. The priest would come out and say Mass at the field, and those who were Catholic would

01:43:53.180 - 01:44:08.720

participate. I can remember that at that time, you know, of course, the Catholic Church didn't allow women or anybody as altar boys. And I remember Father saying, "Does anybody know how to say the Mass?"

01:44:08.720 - 01:44:20.920

And it was in Latin then. And I knew some of the response, and a couple times I said, "Well, I think I know the responses." And I had a book, and I couldn't read Latin because, like I say,

01:44:20.920 - 01:44:39.300

when I went to school, I didn't take Latin because I took a commercial course. There was so much skipping around different schools. Now if I had gone to Catholic school in the 9th and 10th grade, I'd have had Latin because that's what they had.

01:44:39.420 - 01:44:52.340

But being in public school, I didn't have it. So when I did go to the academy, I took the commercial course and didn't get language like that. I took French, but I didn't get the Latin.

01:44:52.920 - 01:45:07.580

So when they had mass there, a couple times I said I would do it, but my pronunciation must not have fitted some of the women back there because they told me, "Next time we'll do it." So I guess my Latin was lousy.

01:45:07.880 - 01:45:25.060

Father never said anything, but anyway. Nobody else offered to at first, so I did. But anyway, he came out with same masks in one of the classrooms there. While you were in training, were any of the trainees killed?

01:45:26.240 - 01:45:52.960

Yes, two of my bay mates were killed. One was, she was on cross country, and evidently she, I forget what they said happened to her, But anyway, she passed out and the plane circled, they said it circled this little town. Outside of town they could see it circling and I guess it ran out of gas and she crashed.

01:45:53.780 - 01:46:08.780

And then we had another one. I don't know what happened to her, but they weren't in my flight. But it was, I always thought it was kind of odd the way we reacted. After somebody was killed, we'd get real silly.

01:46:08.940 - 01:46:18.620

I mean, we would sort of get together and laugh at nothing. It was just tension worked off. And then they would make us-- I mean, right away, we had to go up and fly.

01:46:19.760 - 01:46:37.020

But the way tension-- we worked it off was in laughter and thought everything was funny and everything. Instead of sadness, it was just working off the tension. I often thought about that, how we worked it off.

01:46:37.740 - 01:46:52.380

I didn't know them personally real well. I mean, I knew them, but I didn't know them personally real well. While you were in training, were you aware of what the girls were doing when they had already graduated?

01:46:53.160 - 01:47:09.840

No, I don't remember. No, they didn't say anything. While you were in training, when a class would graduate, what would happen? Well, we had to, of course, march over to the field where they had the ceremony, and

01:47:09.880 - 01:47:31.680

we had to stand with our classes while they marched through and got their wings. If it was out on the field, sometimes it was in the auditorium when they got their wings, and we would just participate and watch. In the meantime, while you were in training, did you get some different uniforms and describe

01:47:31.800 - 01:47:48.000

those? Let's see, later on we got the blue coveralls. That was kind of late, I mean, towards, let's see, when was it, probably in instruments, by the time we had instruments.

01:47:48.740 - 01:48:08.120

That's when they got us the blue coveralls. And that changed, but I don't think the, I don't remember the dress uniform, you know, We stored the khaki in the shirts until we graduated and got our uniform. You mentioned cross country.

01:48:09.040 - 01:48:23.060

Was there anything unusual that you recall about a cross country that you took? No, I was lucky I guess. My thousand mile cross country was fine, nothing unusual. We landed at different fields.

01:48:24.780 - 01:48:42.060

My two thousand mile cross country was up through Iowa. I don't recall anything unusual happening at all, as far as I was and anybody else that flew with us. It was interesting, though.

01:48:42.060 - 01:48:57.920

We took off one after the other, but never saw each other through the whole flight until we started landing. Aside from the time that the instructor dove the airplane and made you rip out, was there ever a time when you were afraid?

01:48:58.800 - 01:49:19.180

Well, no, but one time I was concerned. I was in a PT-17 and they had the magnetos. You know how we had to, and I don't know why, but I guess why I did it, but the one magneto on the plane I didn't turn full on.

01:49:19.800 - 01:49:33.500

And I remember taking off right over the hangers. And I came so close, I mean, I thought, "Boy, am I going to make it? Why isn't this lifting more, getting more power? I did make it.

01:49:34.140 - 01:49:49.600

The tower called me and said, "You're taking off too low." But luckily, as I got close to the hangers, I noticed that the switch wasn't full on and I did. Boy, I lifted right up over the thing.

01:49:50.020 - 01:50:03.620

That's the only close time I think I ever had. It was my fault. I just didn't have the magneto fully on. But, outside of that, I never thought much about it, except when he did that dive.

01:50:06.420 - 01:50:29.540

Is there anything else about the training that you would like to tell us about? Well, I know a lot of the girls complained about the instructors, the way they treated but I never had any problem. My instructors were kind and patient.

01:50:32.230 - 01:50:48.460

I just don't remember having any problems with them. I can't remember. It went smoothly. Kelly: As far as the food at Avenger, what was your—

01:50:48.360 - 01:51:11.260

Well, I know I didn't like liver. It seemed like, at first, we had liver. They fixed it real nice, and I thought it was a piece of steak or beef, and I took a bite and I got out of the, started chewing it, and I got out of the mess hall real quick

01:51:12.280 - 01:51:34.560

because I got sick, but after that I had tried it a couple more times and knowing what it was I think I finally got to like it. I don't know, I can't remember the mess hall food being so bad. I probably didn't eat much, but I had no problem with it.

01:51:34.980 - 01:51:51.560

I remember one time though in the mess hall, it was September, it was my birthday, and The girls had gotten a birthday cake for me. It was pretty big. And there were just us in the mess hall, and Cochran was sitting several tables away with

01:51:52.160 - 01:52:07.560

some generals that came in on the field, and she was talking to them. I had a big cake, and I don't know why I did it, but I thought maybe they'd like some, which was a mistake. I walked down, and I said, "Would any of you like a cake?"

01:52:07.740 - 01:52:17.040

They had sang to me and everything. I said, "Would any of you like to have a piece of birthday cake?" And she said, "Please." She said, "We're having a meeting here."

01:52:17.200 - 01:52:27.720

"No, they wouldn't." "No, we don't." And all four of the men said, "Yeah, we'd love a piece." So I thought, "Oh, boy, I've got to get washed out."

01:52:28.260 - 01:52:39.440

But anyway, I gave, we took four plates and gave them a piece, and she just sat there drumming the table. But I thought I was going to be washed out. But she never said anything.

01:52:40.560 - 01:53:02.600

But that's the only incident I can remember in a mess hall. While you were still in training, do you recall when you first heard that the WASP would be disbanded? Well, the first I knew about it was when I had heard that there were rumors of it.

01:53:03.080 - 01:53:17.860

didn't pay much attention until 45-1 came in, some of the girls. And they were standing around crying. I said, "What's the matter? What happened?" "Well, you heard the news we're gonna be, we're gonna be disbanded."

01:53:17.860 - 01:53:43.440

And I said, "Yeah, is it true?" And they said, "Yeah, the 45-1 came in. These girls are, you know, sent back home." Some were crying, some had lost their, had sold their homes, and everything to come down, and that's when it really hit that we would be disbanded. But then they told us it would be December, and we were graduating in November, and I

01:53:43.480 - 01:53:57.840

thought, "Well, good, we'll be assigned someplace." So that—it was really sad around there. Everybody was just, "What are they going to do with us?" Maybe they'll let us who have our wings stay longer and all that stuff.

01:53:57.940 - 01:54:28.400

And why do you feel they did disband it? Well, the way I feel, I don't know if I should say this, but the history of it, the right history that I have in my book, is that General Arnold never really wanted women fliers. And General Olds was head of the Faring Command.

01:54:29.920 - 01:54:52.880

Well, he wasn't a general then, he was a colonel. And he sort of talked Arnold into it. And the way I felt was that Arnold, although we did prove everything and he was happy with it, you know, since he let us through, General Olds talked him into taking us to train.

01:54:53.100 - 01:55:10.900

He said, "Look, we need a ferry command. It will help the boys, you know, release men." And so, at the end, they said some of the men came home and complained about us having their jobs.

01:55:11.040 - 01:55:19.180

I mean, they weren't going to have anything, you know, they came back from combat. "Oh, what are we going to do? What are we, you know?" This was supposed to be the complaint.

01:55:20.180 - 01:55:36.980

And I think it was just an out for General Arnold to release us, you know. I'm sure he was proud of the women, what they did and everything, but I still don't think he really wanted the women flying. I mean, that's my opinion, and that's the way I saw it.

01:55:39.660 - 01:56:03.260

Because he was too, I mean, it was almost like a decision overnight, you know. And that was a very good excuse, and it might have been a legitimate excuse, you know. But I just felt that he didn't. I didn't feel this way until just in the last ten years, after reading, gathering everybody's

01:56:03.300 - 01:56:18.800

story and then getting the history together and everything. And when I read the history over and over, I thought, "My gosh, he really didn't want us at first." It was General—Colonel Olds was the one that should have really given credit to for

01:56:18.900 - 01:56:41.840

taking us in. He talked him into it. When you finished training, tell me about your graduation. Well, I can remember Mother came down from graduation, and I can remember getting all

01:56:41.680 - 01:57:06.700

all dressed up and excited and packing up to go to the field. I don't know why I did it, but when we were asked what field we would like to go to, and I thought, gee, it'd be nice to be close to home, out east, which I wished I hadn't done, and I put that I would like to be out in one of the eastern states.

01:57:06.800 - 01:57:35.240

well they sent me to Cortland, Alabama, which was no closer to Ohio than I felt Texas was. But anyway, they sent me to Cortland, Alabama, which I wish I hadn't said that because I would have liked to have been, you know. But I thought it would be nice, close to home and maybe the family could, you know, come out and see it and everything. Anyway, mother

01:57:35.240 - 01:58:00.920

Mother came down and I got my wings, and the night before we had a party, and I remember taking mother to the party, and at that time everybody was smoking, and my mom didn't. And I told her, I said, "Why don't you try a cigarette?" And she looked at me and she took one puff and blew it out, and that was, of course,

01:58:01.020 - 01:58:15.080

that was the end of it. But I didn't smoke, actually, I never inhaled. I'd buy a pack of cigarettes and I would smoke one and that was enough and I would hold on to them and finally I'd give them to somebody.

01:58:15.220 - 01:58:28.060

Well everybody was around me whenever I bought a pack of cigarettes, I was going to give them away. But she did, she took that. And then I knew she didn't drink, but we had her to take a little drink of wine or

01:58:28.260 - 01:58:40.540

whatever we had there. But she was, she took pictures and she just loved it. I mean, she'd never been too far away from home either, so I think that was sort of nice for her. I think she was really proud of it.

01:58:41.140 - 01:58:55.700

And then before, when I went to catch the train, we were standing out there waiting for the bus to take us to the train station, and she took a picture of me, which I have in my book. It was a real good picture. She was really proud of it.

01:58:55.900 - 01:59:10.100

And I don't know, that really made graduation special, 'cause she saw me get my wings and everything. And then we'd get on the train, and in the middle of the night, our trains,

01:59:10.740 - 01:59:17.280

well, she couldn't ride with me because she was going another way, and I couldn't believe it, we were still in Texas in the middle of the night.

01:59:17.770 - 01:59:31.940

She didn't either, she says, "Boy, Texas is a big state." But it was really, she made it special. - Okay, were there some celebrities, generals? - No, we didn't have any of the celebrities.

01:59:32.760 - 01:59:43.040

- Was Miss Cochran there? - I think she did come to ours, but she was the only one. - And by the time you graduated,

01:59:44.100 - 02:00:01.900

then who was left at Avenger? - Well, just W-10 was still left. Did you notice any difference in how you were treated or in the routines once you were just two classes left there?

02:00:03.140 - 02:00:26.260

No, I really didn't. I don't think, it didn't seem to be, it just seemed like the field wasn't full, you know, There weren't that many around, but I don't recall ever being treated any different. But it just seemed like it was sort of empty.

02:00:26.920 - 02:00:38.880

I mean, there weren't that many there, of course. And for your graduation, what did you wear? And for the graduation? For the graduation.

02:00:39.180 - 02:00:51.480

We wore our uniforms. We got our uniforms. Describe those uniforms. Well, it was a skirt and then the blouse, you know, with the belt and the blue regular

02:00:51.660 - 02:01:03.180

uniform and the hat. I had problems with the hat. I didn't care much for that, but I was able to put it on. But that was the full dress uniform, the skirt.

02:01:04.100 - 02:01:23.640

Right, Santiago blue. Yes, Santiago blue. Do you recall if some department store or something came to fit those uniforms? I think we went out to, had to go out in town and be fitted for them, because mine seemed

02:01:23.640 - 02:01:39.660

to fit pretty well. I think we were fitted out in town, it seemed to me. So when you got your orders, when you graduated, and you were ordered to go to Cortland, Alabama. Yeah, that's a B-24 base.

02:01:40.100 - 02:01:50.820

Okay. When you got—were there others in your class who were also assigned to that base? No, I was the only one there in the class. When you got to Cortland, what did you do?

02:01:51.280 - 02:02:08.400

To whom did you report? I can't remember fully, but I'm sure it was at the office, but I can't remember where I reported. And what was your job to be at Cortland?

02:02:08.740 - 02:02:33.500

My job there was to test BT-13s that were rebuilt after the cadets crashed them, and We had to test them before they were allowed to fly them again. My job mostly, too, was administrative duty. I flew officers to different fields for administrative duty.

02:02:33.680 - 02:02:58.140

Different officers, you know, to fields. Also I got to fly, to pick up parts in a UC-78. I flew co-pilot, co-pilot in an AT-10, AT-11. And then I used to take the fellows that came back from overseas that flew B-24s, I'd

02:02:58.160 - 02:03:16.540

take them in the, I would take off in the BT-13 and let them fly it. They just loved to go out and just ring it out. Then I would, I'd never let them land though because they were used to landing in the B-24, you know, up so high.

02:03:16.950 - 02:03:39.180

So they'd say to me, you know, "Land it." And then they took me up to B-24 and they took me on one trip where I got to about two or three hours of first pilot training and then also I got about 24 hours of co-pilot. They took me up.

02:03:39.700 - 02:04:06.340

But one incident that I'll never forget, when they first took me up, they put me in the first pilot seat and we were flying along and I looked out and both outboard engines were feathered and I had to keep pulling back on the wheel to keep it up and trying to give it more power.

02:04:06.660 - 02:04:20.180

And I looked around, nobody was there, and I yelled, "If you guys don't want to crash, better get back here and put these engines back on. And boy, did they come flying. But they thought it was a cute joke.

02:04:20.580 - 02:04:32.300

And I thought it was a dumb joke. Because, you know, holding that thing like that, I mean, trying to-- without the power, that I'll never forget.

02:04:32.300 - 02:04:40.340

I said, don't you ever do that again to me. OK, we're going to change that. OK, how are you doing, Betty? Oh, fine.

02:04:40.500 - 02:04:52.720

Doing fine? I mean, even though they were crashing. But it was a nice space. And it's rolling.

02:04:52.920 - 02:05:06.600

They were fun. When you arrived at Cortland, where did you stay? We stayed in the officers' quarters. The nurses that were there that were officers, we stayed in their quarters, the nurses'

02:05:06.760 - 02:05:18.360

quarters. Were there already WASP stations there? There were three other WASPs, I think it was, that were stationed there. What was your social life like at Cortland?

02:05:18.720 - 02:05:32.480

Oh, it was great. Because we could go out with commissioned and non-commissioned officers. The others had, I mean, they had restricted. No, I really enjoyed it.

02:05:32.700 - 02:05:37.960

It was real nice. The fellows were real nice. Did you meet anybody special? Yeah, I went.

02:05:38.200 - 02:05:56.140

I dated a couple that were there that were real special, but nothing, you know, just friends. When the WASPs were disbanded, did the base do anything special for the WASPs? No, they didn't do anything.

02:05:57.040 - 02:06:17.440

I know some other fields, they were sent home in planes and everything, but given special permission to fly some planes someplace else near their home, but we weren't given anything special. Was there anything that happened at Cortland that you would like to talk about?

02:06:18.280 - 02:06:44.060

No, just the, I remember that the, let's see, I was hoping, what is the plane that they have for airlines then? C-47? Yeah, they had one of them come in and I was hoping to get to fly it, but it was going

02:06:44.060 - 02:07:12.420

to Florida and I asked permission to go down. I went to fly with them and the fellows were willing to take me but my CO said no. Our CO there was, he was grounded because of illness and stuff and he resented anybody else getting any special things. But he was nice, but he He just, "No," he said, "No, we don't do that."

02:07:12.760 - 02:07:30.760

But that was the only thing I was disappointed in, because I like to see the C-47 when it was passengers. But nothing really—I was only there six weeks, so there wasn't much time, you know, anything special.

02:07:30.760 - 02:07:43.400

So, on December 20, 1944, when the wasps were disbanded, what did you do? Well, I just packed up and went home. How did you get home? I went home on a train.

02:07:45.820 - 02:07:55.440

And when you got back to Columbus, is it Columbus? It was almost Christmas. What was that Christmas like? Well, it was nice.

02:07:55.540 - 02:08:09.440

It was coming home. I went back to my brother's house and it was real nice. They were happy to see me and first time I'd seen them since I had left. And I had to tell them all about everything, you know.

02:08:09.840 - 02:08:18.980

But it was real nice. Your brother's real proud? Yeah, yeah. Well, my younger brother was over in England by then.

02:08:21.480 - 02:08:35.920

My younger brother was taken into the service, Army, just Army. He was stationed in England, so I didn't get to see him right then. So he never saw you in your uniform? No, no he hadn't.

02:08:36.080 - 02:08:54.280

Were you ever able to take your mom up for a ride? No, I didn't get a chance to. I tried to get a job as a pilot, you know, flying something, but around Columbus I guess I just didn't know places to do it and what to do, so I didn't get to take her up.

02:08:54.600 - 02:09:10.140

No. I was really disappointed. Right away I started looking in the Simcha newspaper or something that had jobs, and I found a job at Gunner Field as aircraft dispatcher.

02:09:10.140 - 02:09:23.440

I signed clearances, you know, for the pilots. And I took that job in Gunter Field, and that was in Montgomery, Alabama. I don't know why I went back to Alabama, but I did. - You must have liked it.

02:09:24.540 - 02:09:33.760

- No. - Were there other WASPs also working there? - No, I was the only one. They gave me the job to aircraft dispatcher.

02:09:34.460 - 02:09:55.420

But I did get to one night, I was dying to go up again. And of course I was a civilian, you couldn't. So the fellows put a helmet on and had a flight jacket and everything and they took me up in a T-47 for a while.

02:09:56.260 - 02:10:08.820

But they told me, "Don't say a word on the mic." I got to fly in one night, but that's all. At Gutter, what was your social life like? Oh, it was real nice.

02:10:09.000 - 02:10:29.360

I was dating different ones and then there was this guy named Herky Rice, we called him Herky, his name was Charles. He was dating another girl and he happened to be officer of the day. And that's when an officer is 24-hour duty and they check everything around.

02:10:30.280 - 02:10:50.000

And he sat there beside the dispatchers where I was, and he told me about this fellow that saw me and would like to have a date with me. And I said, "Well, I'll go out with him, but I won't go out on a blind date." I had never met him.

02:10:50.560 - 02:11:07.600

I said, "How about if I date you and he'd go out with my friend?" So I had taken a room down there with Mary Ellen, I can't think of her last name right now. But anyway, she went out with him and I met him.

02:11:07.780 - 02:11:20.800

And then I started dating him and every time, I had several dates, but I broke them to go out with him all the time. And he'd call me every night and I'd either be washing my hair or doing something when we didn't go out.

02:11:21.560 - 02:11:35.500

I only knew him three weeks and we got married. I never thought I'd ever do anything like that. Herky and Jeanette said, "You know, we're thinking about getting married. Why don't you go with us?"

02:11:35.500 - 02:11:54.380

And we went over to another town to a justice of the peace and he says, "Am I getting you in trouble or out of trouble?" And the guy's about ready to poke you for saying that. So after we got married, I said, my husband was a Catholic too, I said, "You know, we

02:11:55.140 - 02:12:05.720

have to get married by a priest first." He said, "I know." So Herkie and Jeanette went off on a honeymoon and I went back to my room and he went back to the barracks.

02:12:06.460 - 02:12:14.880

And I went in and I told Marielle and I said, "You'll never guess what happened when I told her." She said, "You've got to be kidding." And she about died.

02:12:15.560 - 02:12:32.980

So we went in and saw the priest in town, Monsignor Rogers, and he said, "Oh, this damn whore, he went like that." So he said, "Okay." So he married us, and Herkie and Jeanette stood up for us in church.

02:12:32.990 - 02:12:47.680

We didn't have a big wedding, just in church. So he signed the marriage certificate the same day we had Justice of the Peace, because He said, "You're going to have a problem all your life at these two dates." So he made it April 12th.

02:12:47.960 - 02:13:05.160

And that was the day that Roosevelt, April the 12th, that Roosevelt died. And the 17th was when we were married by the priest. So that was the day. Betty, what were the qualities that made you fall in love with him?

02:13:06.720 - 02:13:27.340

He was a very kind, he was a good looking guy and he never once made any advances to me. He was a very, what was it, very kind and very gentle and he was just a very wonderful guy and I liked him.

02:13:27.670 - 02:13:41.960

He wasn't forward, you know, he didn't make any, I mean, he just, I don't know, he was just nice. which I wasn't, you know, some of these guys are fast, but he was always so considerate and everything.

02:13:42.530 - 02:14:04.220

Was he a pilot? No, he was a maintenance officer. And what did your mother say when you told her? I had had a, she just couldn't figure it, she knew I had, I told her that I was, you

02:14:04.220 - 02:14:18.300

because I mean not very long as I had just moved down there to Alabama and she just, she said, "Are you sure?" She just kept saying, "Are you sure you're married?" I said, "Yes, I'm married."

02:14:18.300 - 02:14:38.220

And she said, "Well, all right." I don't know, I guess his mother really threw a fit because that was her favorite son and to think that I—so I was never really liked very much by her. But Mom really liked Bill when she met him.

02:14:38.420 - 02:14:56.100

She thought he was wonderful. [MW:] So after you got married, then did you stay there? [CF:] Oh yeah, we took a room at a—I can't remember. It was a little cottage on the back of an estate.

02:14:57.220 - 02:15:16.300

It was a real nice little place. I worked at the field. I got a ride in and out by what we call a recon car. The officer drove us, and we had a real nice time.

02:15:17.060 - 02:15:36.660

He was in the process anyway of getting released. They were releasing them and discharging them. So I don't know how many months we worked there. And then I think I found out I was pregnant then after a couple months.

02:15:37.420 - 02:15:48.600

And so he got a discharge then. So where did you have your first child? In Philadelphia. We went to his home.

02:15:49.760 - 02:16:12.140

And they didn't, we couldn't find a house or anything, so we had to live with the parents. And his sister and husband, who was in the Navy, was living there too. So we slept on a cot that was pulled down in the dining room. And of course, his mother didn't, you know, really care for him.

02:16:12.580 - 02:16:33.420

Anyway, I can remember waking up to the sweeper around the cot. I don't know why she couldn't wait until later, but it wasn't a very pleasant stay. And I got toxema and it swelled all up. And the doctor was very sympathetic.

02:16:33.530 - 02:16:46.540

He knew the family. And he said, he just told me, he says, "Well, it's your nerves that's causing all this." He said, "I just hope the baby will be all right." You know, but she was.

02:16:47.480 - 02:17:03.340

So were you still living there when the baby was born? No, we finally got an apartment with his other brother and sister. Other brother and sister-in-law, we got a house really. And we lived, shared it together.

02:17:04.200 - 02:17:15.240

And that's where I had the first baby. I mean, and we lived together. She was real nice, Mary. His brother, his older brother, came back and then we found a house together.

02:17:16.080 - 02:17:36.440

So what was your husband doing then? He worked for a company over in New Jersey. I think he was sort of in the, what do you want to call it, bookkeeping, he did that, but they call it something else, I don't know.

02:17:38.340 - 02:17:52.760

It was bookkeeping for the company. And your first child was whom? That was Ann, Ann Louise. She was the first one born in '46, I think it was.

02:17:54.900 - 02:18:20.760

And then did you stay there until you had other children? Yeah, I had, let's see, well then finally Tom and Mary moved to South America. He got a job down there, so we had the whole house. the time I had Pat was the second one born there. And then we moved to, let's see,

02:18:21.730 - 02:18:46.020

could I go to Pat? I have two children. Oh yeah, Pat. Okay, just take me through the rest of the... Well, then we, my mother, I used to write to her and I would be so homesick and I would tell her, I mean, like I said, I wasn't too well.

02:18:46.320 - 02:18:55.860

So I used to sometimes cry when I was writing to her. She'd see the ink spots. You know, that's when you used a pen that you dipped in the ink.

02:18:56.720 - 02:19:10.260

And she never said a word about it. And so she found a place. She had my uncle, Marguerite's husband, she had him to kind of look around for a job maybe

02:19:10.260 - 02:19:24.820

that Bill could get. And she told us that she thought that there was a job over there in Columbus that maybe he would like. So he went over, and he got interviewed.

02:19:24.980 - 02:19:42.300

So we decided to move to Columbus. And then that's when-- let's see, Dick. He was born in 1950, and we moved to Columbus in '48, I guess it was, when Pat was just a baby.

02:19:43.260 - 02:19:51.460

So we moved to Columbus then, and that's where I had Bill, 1950. And then... Hold on one second. Okay.

02:19:52.380 - 02:19:57.120

All right. Okay, Pat and then Bill. Bill. Bill.

02:19:58.130 - 02:20:09.740

Billy. He was, yeah, he was born in Columbus. When he was born, Bill always wanted a boy. Mom said he came home and watered all the flowers.

02:20:11.820 - 02:20:19.240

He watered flowers. He was so excited over having a boy. Is there anything I can do? She said he was really excited.

02:20:19.980 - 02:20:46.640

And then Dick was born in '52. And then there was a long session that I didn't have any children. It's about six years. And then in '50, well maybe it was six years, I don't know, but anyhow in '57 I had Robin,

02:20:48.210 - 02:21:04.040

and in '58 I had Susan, and in '59 I had Judy. And then we moved to Cincinnati. Betty, when those children were growing up, how were you involved with their activities, with their school?

02:21:04.400 - 02:21:26.640

Oh, gosh. I was involved a lot, especially with the boys with baseball and football, especially baseball. I was involved with the girls and Girl Scouts, brownies, and all that stuff.

02:21:29.280 - 02:21:53.620

I was always there at school for them, had to go into meetings and stuff. I always tried to be there for them. Kelly: Then once the children left home, then what did you do? Well, once they left home, let's see, I went to work then.

02:21:56.160 - 02:22:15.940

I still wanted to go back and, you know, when I wasn't working, there wasn't too much I knew about what was going on in the world, you know. It seemed like when I went back to work, I really, you know, got to know, see a lot more and everything.

02:22:17.220 - 02:22:38.180

And let's see, we moved down to Cincinnati, well, in Finneytown. And while I was there, I didn't, what did I do? Well, I got mostly involved in bridge clubs and stuff like that. And I was trying to think what else.

02:22:38.320 - 02:22:51.400

Oh, and played golf. I played golf a lot. Any volunteer type work? I was just trying to think, it seemed to me, especially at church, I got involved at church

02:22:51.400 - 02:23:22.220

in a lot of stuff because of helping out there. I still have the kids. After they left, I was trying to think where I was when they left home, when the last one. We were probably, I can't think, 57, 67.

02:23:26.080 - 02:23:47.560

I was just trying to think where we were when the last one left home. I don't know whether we were up in, no we weren't in Columbus because we were back down here. I guess we were, oh I know, we lived on, I lived on the Swordsville-Westchester Road.

02:23:48.380 - 02:24:10.780

We lived down here and then we had gone back up to Columbus and then we came back down again because Bill started working for Meyers Wine Cellar and that's when we moved back to Cincinnati, not Cincinnati, but the Cincinnati area. And we lived on the Sargentville-Westchester Road,

02:24:11.160 - 02:24:24.800

which we had five acres. And that's right, Susan and Judy were still home because we had two horses and a couple dogs and a cat and we lived on five acres.

02:24:25.540 - 02:24:46.500

We had the horses then for the kids to ride. And we were involved in getting them. And some dentist, they owned a racehorse named Crafty. And Crafty had ran his-- well, lifetime, I mean, of racing.

02:24:46.740 - 02:24:56.760

So they wanted to get a home for him. And so they asked me if we would like to have a horse. And I said, sure. But we didn't have the money to buy it.

02:24:56.760 - 02:25:04.320

And I didn't say that. And he says, "Well, I'm giving him to you if you give him a good home. We want a good home." We said, "Fine."

02:25:04.320 - 02:25:24.840

We got two girls that loves to ride and everything. So we got Crafty, and then we got another horse named Dart, which was the dumbest horse. He was a good horse. I mean, he was nice, but he was sort of not like Crafty.

02:25:24.840 - 02:25:48.180

crafty was real refined, and the girls had the two horses to ride in. We were there in Finneytown for a while. I mean in Westchester, no it was not Westchester, Hamilton on Swordsville-Westchester Road. Then we moved back to Columbus, and that's when we didn't have any children with us.

02:25:51.200 - 02:26:11.620

He went with Compensation Consultant Insurance then. He changed jobs there. And then my oldest son started with them, and my oldest son became vice president. He was sort of over Bill, which was fine with Bill, because he was kind of wanting to retire

02:26:11.820 - 02:26:29.160

then. And so that's what happened there. And now, how do you have reunions with all your children? Oh, they're for years, when we lived, especially when we lived on the five acres.

02:26:29.980 - 02:26:51.520

They came, I mean, we had every Sunday was chicken, and their favorite, chicken on rice, and you know, the works, all that. And they even brought kids home, so I'd buy chickens and I'd cut them up, and I would wrap individual pieces because if I had enough, you know, took enough out,

02:26:51.900 - 02:27:11.280

all of them for the family, and if they brought a couple friends, I just have to take one piece out, whatever, or two pieces, whatever, for each one of them. And that way, I mean, if they brought kids up with them, I didn't mind. I mean, we'd have all we'd always had. They always brought a friend or something with them. And we

02:27:11.400 - 02:27:28.360

always had, every Sunday, they came home every Sunday for dinner. And they've done And they did that for years. And then when we moved to Columbus, I thought, well, I'll get sort of a break. Well, that was funny, because they would drive up from Cincinnati and join us up there.

02:27:28.360 - 02:27:44.500

We had a couple acres up there, a house up in Powell, Ohio. That was north of Columbus. And so they still brought kids up there, came up, a whole gang of them. So I still had to do the chickens separately and everything.

02:27:45.940 - 02:28:01.100

Every Sunday, there was some of them came home. That's one thing about my kids, they always came, like to come home to stuff, you know. I never had any problem. I know I've had a lot of friends that said to me, "My kids, we never see them," or,

02:28:01.200 - 02:28:06.320

"They never come home." I didn't have that problem. They were always home. And you still don't have it?

02:28:06.460 - 02:28:15.260

I still don't, no. They still get together. On big holidays, do you make a call? Especially holidays because now they're scattered.

02:28:15.360 - 02:28:34.560

I mean, Ann's in Florida, and she used to have a home in Maine, too, but they sold that one and kept the one in Florida. Ann's in Florida, Pat's in Virginia, Bill is in Columbus, and Dick lives down in, he's at my house right now.

02:28:34.570 - 02:28:45.660

He lives in Mount Washington. And then Robin, he's in North Carolina. He lives there now. He moved there.

02:28:46.420 - 02:29:06.160

And Susie and Judy are up near, I mean not too close to me, but you know, in Cincinnati. Which one is your favorite? I don't have any favorite. I told them a long time ago, I said, "If God asked me that he was going to take one

02:29:06.020 - 02:29:20.060

of my children, I'd say, "I'm sorry, but none of them, I can't give you one, but you can take me, but not the kids." You know, that, or, I mean, I don't have any, but, you know, I would want to, you know, I don't have a favorite.

02:29:20.420 - 02:29:35.220

- They were just proud of all of them. - Yeah, they're all great kids. - I know that you have kept up with the WASP, your friends, and that you've also been involved with the WASP organization to keep that organization alive.

02:29:35.300 - 02:29:53.660

1964 when they had the first reunion. Describe for me some of the things that you've been involved in. Well, when they first started coming to Cincinnati in 1964, that's when the 99s shared their weekend with us.

02:29:53.960 - 02:30:22.520

And Cochran came, and there I met Marty Weil, and Mary Jones was there, Mary Rigobuda, Mary Jones was then, and we had a reunion there, but we decided at that reunion that we should maybe get a national, make it national, and we, to make contact with the rest of them, find who all the WASPs were.

02:30:23.240 - 02:30:44.440

So Marty set up a sort of a committee-like, I guess you might call it, and we each took a whole list of names to call to find out, to see if we could find them. And then the phone company cooperated with us. They gave us a break on our long-distance phone calls where we were trying to contact

02:30:44.560 - 02:30:57.680

these WASPs. And we also wrote. So each one of us had a list, and I think we took our classes first, and then we took others because I tried to find everybody that was in my class.

02:30:57.690 - 02:31:09.600

I did all except two. And then we called other WASPs and got them together and started the organization, building it up. And then we had reunions every five years then.

02:31:10.320 - 02:31:31.980

So in '69, we had quite a few, hadn't contacted everybody, and we did it too by word of mouth. If we found somebody, do you know any WASP that you know that could contact us, send us a letter?

02:31:32.800 - 02:31:48.480

So that's how we got the organization started and gathered together. What did you call that first organization? I don't know whether it was the Order of Fief and Eller or not yet. I really don't recall what it was.

02:31:48.480 - 02:32:00.660

- Were you organized to the point of having a president? Or how did you designate? - Yeah, I forget who our first one was. See, the California WASP had already organized

02:32:00.780 - 02:32:11.400

and kept together all those years. And I don't remember, I don't have my, if I had my roster, I could tell you, you know, I mean, bring back more memory to me,

02:32:12.060 - 02:32:26.060

which is out in the car if you want me to get it. But our first president, I don't remember who it was. I know that we contacted a lot of them, you know, and kept in touch and everything.

02:32:26.800 - 02:32:36.060

And each reunion, we had a few-- you know, a little more came. How often did you meet? Well, we only met every five years then.

02:32:36.380 - 02:32:49.380

We had a reunion. And then we decided-- We were starting to get older and a lot of them were passing away, so then we thought we better get together every two years.

02:32:50.560 - 02:33:01.940

That's when we started. I know at one point the Congress gave the lost veteran status. Were you involved in that? No, I wasn't.

02:33:02.220 - 02:33:18.280

At that time I was having health problems, a few health problems, and I didn't get involved. I would have liked to have done it, but we just didn't have the money for me to travel to do it.

02:33:18.820 - 02:33:36.900

But I did keep in touch, I mean, what was going on and everything. And I didn't get to go to Washington or anything for that. I did keep in touch and informed my class what was going on. I've been class secretary since '64, too.

02:33:37.680 - 02:33:51.600

And so I really didn't get involved in that. And I know, too, that you've been an officer. What position did you have? I was treasurer '92 to '94.

02:33:53.060 - 02:34:13.660

And I had a few problems with a couple of men who were trying to tell me how to do it. And I just told them, I said, "My method is more simple than yours. Marge sighs more." She was trying to tell me how to do it, and Ethel pushed her to do it, you know, to tell

02:34:13.760 - 02:34:27.040

me. And I just told her, I said, "The method that you gave me is so complicated. Let me alone. I'll do the job and I balance to the penny every month, give a report and everything.

02:34:27.320 - 02:34:50.260

So it worked out fine. But I enjoyed being, I mean, they gave me a computer and I learned how to use it and really worked, you know, I had everything on computer. And then when my time was up, I gave the computer to the next secretary, or treasurer, I mean,

02:34:50.380 - 02:35:02.500

and all my records. And I know even now you're involved. Yeah, I have been all the time. I mean, I didn't go to meetings, you know, or anything, but if anything needed to be

02:35:02.600 - 02:35:17.380

done, I helped. Yeah, right now, Bea Thurston approached me several months ago and asked me, she said, I'm going to be president, would you be my financial advisor?" And I thought, "What's that?"

02:35:17.400 - 02:35:31.900

You know, I wasn't sure. And so she said, "Well, you'll start a... We'll talk over finances together." And I thought, "Well, Marge Sizemore had just died, had passed away."

02:35:31.900 - 02:35:49.840

And I thought, "Well, if I could get her records and find out what she did, you know, what it was all about." I wasn't sure what the position involved. So I did ask at the meeting this weekend that I found out the treasurer and somebody else

02:35:49.900 - 02:35:58.880

has half of her records. She has a big box of stuff. I don't know what it is. But anyway, they're going to send them to me, and I'm going to look them over.

02:35:59.540 - 02:36:21.660

And what's old and not involved, they said send it to Texas Women University. So I just want to see what the records consist of and what the job consists of. I know also that you have done something really special for the WASP in writing a book. Tell us about that.

02:36:22.780 - 02:36:46.440

In '97 or '96, I had put together a class book. In it I have all the pictures and the stories of my class, most all of them. In the middle of it I have pictures that I had and that I'd gotten from others at the field and everything involved with the field and everything, and then the planes and everything.

02:36:47.340 - 02:37:01.420

So they all liked it. They liked it real well, whoever saw it, you know, my class did. But I heard some women talking, you know, "I wonder what happened to so-and-so. I wonder where this one is," you know, and everything.

02:37:01.580 - 02:37:20.120

And I got to thinking, "Well, if I put that class book together," I thought, "why don't I do the whole organization?" So I didn't know what I was getting into. Anyway, I took the roster, and I wrote to every WASP that was alive, that was living.

02:37:21.100 - 02:37:41.200

And I also contacted Katherine Murphy and got the name and addresses of those who had passed away, like the husband or the children that she had. She didn't have too terribly many of them, but, you know, I mean, when they passed away, they didn't, you know, tell her or anything.

02:37:41.420 - 02:38:10.120

Anyway, I wrote to them. So I got letters back and everything, and those I didn't hear from, I wrote them again. And so I kept getting letters, well I finally collected 670 life stories. Of that, 125 were deceased, where the husbands or the children gave me their stories.

02:38:11.220 - 02:38:27.380

So when they wrote to me, I'd put the story that they gave me into the computer, and then I'd send them a copy of it. And then I told them, "If you want to add anything or delete anything, do it and send it back to me."

02:38:27.380 - 02:38:38.700

So they would do that. They would send it to me, and I'd put whatever was in the computer, and then I'd send them another copy. "How's this sound?"

02:38:38.700 - 02:38:50.340

And a lot of them said, "Well, I like this set," you know, or "I like this set a different way." So some of them corresponded back and forth three or four, five times. Some of them just, you know, "Well, that's fine.

02:38:50.360 - 02:38:58.920

Put it in." So that was the final. And I put them all on disk. I put them in a disk, too, by class.

02:38:59.440 - 02:39:27.100

So I finally got them all together, and then I went back to the history, and I wanted to get the true history of what happened. So I talked to several people and I got all the history down about Arnold and Colonel Olds and all that, and I sent it to Marty, who is our historian, and I said, "Marty, look this over, and if there's anything that's

02:39:27.200 - 02:39:51.000

not true, take it out, and change whatever should be done." So I got the, she wrote back and she says, "Everything sounds pretty good. It's okay." So I thought, "Well, okay, I'll use that." And that's how I started my book. Then I got to thinking, gee, it would be nice to have all the class pictures, you know, the graduation pictures

02:39:51.180 - 02:40:17.820

of them. So I wrote to the secretaries of each class and I asked if they would please send me a copy, have copies made of their class books and I'd pay them for it. And so they had copies made and only one wanted money for it, you know, I mean charged me. But I wanted them all to, you know, I told them I'd send them the money because I wanted

02:40:17.860 - 02:40:38.160

them done by a copying where they would be worthy to copy in the book, which they did. And so I got all the graduation pictures, and then the ones I had the story of, I took, you know, marked on the back their names

02:40:38.340 - 02:40:47.420

and sent them to the publisher so that they'd get them correct, you know. And then I thought, it'd be nice to have pictures of them now.

02:40:49.140 - 02:41:00.160

Dumb me, I did not know that putting pictures in a book is what's so costly. It costs a small fortune. That's why you never see pictures in an--

02:41:00.220 - 02:41:12.100

if there's a biography, you only see one little section with several pictures, and that's all, because it's very costly to do that. So I wrote to the girls, to everybody, and I said,

02:41:12.200 - 02:41:23.040

how about sending me a picture of you now? Well, 400 did send me a picture of them then. I said, be sure and put your name on the back so we get the right picture in the story.

02:41:23.620 - 02:41:31.120

So they did. And I sent those. I had a lot of them sized. Some of them sent me a picture of them in with other people.

02:41:31.840 - 02:41:43.820

So I had to circle, say, she's the third from the left or something like that. Well, I got that. And they had to take that out and size it, which was costly.

02:41:44.580 - 02:41:55.980

I really didn't know all this was going to-- you know, how much it was going to cost. So I finally got all the stuff together. And it cost me about, from the publisher,

02:41:56.180 - 02:42:09.460

it cost me about 26,000, well, we had 1,000 books made, so it cost me, from the publisher and from all my stamps, I kept the record of all the stamps that I used,

02:42:10.220 - 02:42:25.700

all the paper that I had to buy, and anything involved in it, I kept all bills. and it ended up, it cost me $46 a book, you know, because of the pictures and everything.

02:42:26.300 - 02:42:39.940

So I put out about $46,000 to have that book published. And that took a lot of my money that I had. - Has that been a rewarding experience? - It's been a very rewarding experience.

02:42:40.240 - 02:42:50.040

I'm not sorry I did it. I'm not sorry that I put pictures in it. I'm not sorry that I got pictures of them now, because it really made a good book.

02:42:55.280 - 02:43:13.360

I've never gotten a letter that said, told me that it wasn't so good. I have gotten a lot of letters about people liking it. So I kept those and whenever I go do a book signing

02:43:13.360 - 02:43:24.080

or anything, I have them in a folder. Not all of them, but most of them that's easy to read. But I've got a lot of pictures of goodness from, you know, about the book.

02:43:25.420 - 02:43:38.160

- And now that you've finished with that project, how do you spend your time? - Well, I spend a lot of it, I still do a lot for the church,

02:43:39.220 - 02:43:53.960

nothing that involves all day. I spend my time writing to people and I don't know, just sometimes, or with, I went, I don't know,

02:43:54.080 - 02:44:02.260

just with the grandchildren sometimes. And I really thought about going back to work, but nobody would hire me. I was too old.

02:44:03.080 - 02:44:17.600

I mean, really, I was, you know, they just, I only tried a couple places, but I figured I was too, They, why hire somebody that's nearly 80 years old when you can hire somebody 27 or 30, you know?

02:44:18.560 - 02:44:36.560

So I didn't think I would. I kind of wanted to go back to work, but. Do any of your children or grandchildren fly? Yes, I have a grandson, Rick, he went to the Air Force Academy and was accepted.

02:44:37.200 - 02:44:56.060

And while he was there, he found out he had a torn rectum in his eye, and they went to operate and they gave him the choice and he said no, which was good, because it kind of healed. But at the time, he was so upset.

02:44:56.400 - 02:45:15.140

And his brother that lives in California knew Tommy Lasorda, and he told Tommy Lasorda, and he said, "Let me talk to him." called him at the academy and told him, "Rick, don't be discouraged." He said, "Why don't you take engineering?"

02:45:15.140 - 02:45:29.020

He said, "You should be able to fly, if you can see pretty good, you should be able to fly in civilian life." So Rick did. He felt real better and he studied engineering.

02:45:30.120 - 02:45:52.480

And then he had a friend there whose father had a plane and was an instructor, so he taught to fly. And so now Rick has his own, he teaches flying, he's an instructor, and he has his own, what do you call it when you take people in planes some places? Charter.

02:45:52.680 - 02:46:11.200

Charter, he has his own charter company. And so he charters planes and he teaches. He also, found out teaches at the university out there. He teaches, I think it's engineering and math, something like that. Okay, got to change tape.

02:46:11.220 - 02:46:31.420

One more tape, Eddie. Almost done. These are short tapes. Got to fly. And your other grandchild who flies? Well, Matt, he's 13, and he and his father, some fellow that has a plane, took him up

02:46:31.460 - 02:46:50.880

and let Matt fly. Now Matt says he's got to fly, so Bill, that's my oldest son, said he's going, he said I'll let him take lessons when he's ready. I think he can take lessons when he's 14, but he can't solo until he's 16, so when he's

02:46:50.880 - 02:47:03.900

he's going to start flying, and he says he can't wait. So he wants to, you know, he's going to, Bill said, sure, he can take lessons when he's 14. So he's going to be flying.

02:47:07.000 - 02:47:26.360

But the other children, actually we didn't have the money anyway to let them fly. I found something that was kind of disturbing, you know. My husband had Alzheimer's, but before that, he would never...

02:47:27.120 - 02:47:45.740

We always took trips in cars, and I didn't think anything about it. And he would never go with me when I flew anyplace. I'd ask him, "Would you like to go here and there?" So, after my husband passed away, my oldest son told me,

02:47:45.800 - 02:47:57.440

He says, "Mom, didn't you know Dad was afraid of flying?" I said, "God, no. "55 years we were married and I didn't know it." But when I look back, I could remember him

02:47:57.620 - 02:48:08.080

not wanting to go fly anyplace. And I went back to flying. I got my license renewed in '67, took all the kids up with me and flew and everything.

02:48:08.240 - 02:48:25.180

And he always had a best of excuses not to go up. And I almost fell over when I found out he was afraid of flying. I can't believe it. I know, Betty, that you're not flying now, but you've done some other risky things lately.

02:48:25.360 - 02:48:35.080

Tell us about those. Well, I am flying. I go up with friends, but you mean like skydiving? Yes.

02:48:35.580 - 02:48:52.180

Well, first of all, I went hang gliding down at Kitty Hawk, which I really liked, and I was real proud of myself. There were some young kids up there going up and hand gliding, and they were always sliding down on their face, but when I landed, I landed on my feet, and I thought, "Gee,

02:48:52.260 - 02:49:08.140

this is great." Well, I did that hand gliding, which was just that off of the sand mountains down there at Kitty Hawk. But one day I was sitting in the, well, Lila, Lila Boer, a bar, a friend of mine.

02:49:08.880 - 02:49:23.480

She takes me up in the plane and she's getting her commercial and so she lets me fly and she can log it. I don't land or take off or anything. But anyway, one day at the Air Force Museum, we were sitting at a table having lunch and

02:49:23.480 - 02:49:39.420

I was with Patty Wagstaff, she's a, you know, a pilot, and Patty Wagner, who's a wing walker. Well, Patty Wagstaff is the acrobat pilot. We were all sitting there and one of them said to me, "Betty, have you ever jumped

02:49:39.540 - 02:49:59.040

out of a plane?" I said, "No, I always wanted to." I saw all three of them look at each other. Next thing I knew I was out at the airport in Indiana with Lila and we went up to skydive.

02:50:00.280 - 02:50:10.480

The first time, it was fine. I sat on the edge of the plane like this. I mean, you know, sat right in the doorway like this. He said, one, two, three, and out we went.

02:50:10.800 - 02:50:18.700

And I spread my arms. I wasn't afraid at all. The only thing I didn't like, the air going past me was so loud.

02:50:18.920 - 02:50:28.320

It was like a loud blast. My face was all pushed back. You know, here, of course, I had goggles. And then, oh, before, though, when we were getting dressed

02:50:28.320 - 02:50:53.560

to do it. His name was Jason, the one on my back, the instructor. And he said, "Do you want to pull the ripcord?" And I said, "Sure, I'll pull the ripcord." So he had the bar here and he put an altimeter on my arm and everything. So anyhow, we jumped out and we and he says, "Okay, pull the ripcord."

02:50:53.560 - 02:51:09.580

And I'm, "Betty, pull the ripcord." I didn't, nothing happened to me. Next thing I knew, he pulled it. There's a real loud pop, you know, and you kind of

02:51:09.840 - 02:51:30.180

swing it in the air, and then dead silence, and then it's beautiful. You just hang there. And I thought, "My gosh, he told me to pull the ripcord ripcord and he had to do it. That was at 6,000 feet. We went up to 12,000 and then we skydived at 6,000. So we were just hanging there. And when we came in, they told me there was a

02:51:30.180 - 02:51:56.400

couple landings. You could either stand up straight or you could slide in. So that one we slid in. And I about died laughing at me when he said, "What happened? You didn't the ripcord. And then I was talking to another guy that does skydiving, he said, "Well, that was called sensory overload." You know, you're just so much and so excited.

02:51:57.140 - 02:52:19.000

So how old were you? I was 75, just before my 76th birthday. And then the next time, it was 76, and I decided to go up. Well, Lila went up that first time, too. And she did, she said, "No, she wasn't going to go skydiving anymore. She's this young gal. So the second time I thought I

02:52:19.120 - 02:52:47.440

would like to have a cameraman with me. So I paid a cameraman to go up with us to take pictures of me. So he's, when we went out, we scooted over to the door, and I'm standing this time holding onto the side, you know, the plane like this, and the door, he's down here hanging with his hand inside the doorway, just outside, hanging there with

02:52:47.460 - 02:52:54.540

a camera on his head. And Jason says, "Okay, you ready?" And I went, "Yeah." And he says, "One, two, three."

02:52:54.540 - 02:53:06.360

And he kept holding on. He said, "One, two, three." And we went out and started like that again. Here the camera shows me prying my fingers off of the door.

02:53:07.280 - 02:53:16.580

I just held on, I wouldn't go out. So he had to pry my fingers, I about died. Anyway, the cameraman kept yelling, "Hurry up, get out, get out."

02:53:16.580 - 02:53:26.240

Well, what happened, the other people that was in the plane jumped, and by the time it was time for us and me hesitating, we were away from the field.

02:53:27.140 - 02:53:41.200

So when we jumped, the cameraman took a little bit of me, and then he went off. He pulled his ripcord and went off. Well, of course, Jason asked me if I wanted to pull the ripcord this time, and I told

02:53:41.260 - 02:53:54.760

him, "No, you do it." So he pulled the ripcord, and here we are away from the field, and we're coming down into fields. And so he said, "Well, we'll have to pick a field to land," he yelled in my ear.

02:53:55.560 - 02:54:09.380

So he found a little, I said, "You pick. I don't know how." So he picked a field, and when we landed, when we come down, our feet are up like this, and there's two cords come down, and he says, "Flare,"

02:54:09.380 - 02:54:24.000

and I pull him, and that makes the parachute just waver a little bit, so you can stand. Well, instead of standing, I threw myself forward. Of course, he had to go with me, and we go across the field

02:54:24.000 - 02:54:38.520

on my stomach like this, and I got my hands way up in the head so I won't get it in the face. And here we go across this field, cornfield, on my stomach. And the poor guy, he says, Betty, are you all right?

02:54:38.600 - 02:54:48.860

And I said, yeah, are you? So we turned over, and I said, give me time to get a little bit-- he's got his legs around like this, and I'm sitting here.

02:54:49.340 - 02:54:59.960

I said, just give me time enough to get my breath a minute. So he unfastened himself from me. And finally, I got up. We had to thumb back to the field.

02:55:01.080 - 02:55:15.860

It was real dumb. Anyway, some truck came along from the field and picked us up and got us back to the field where my kids, I didn't know this, they had gone out with me the second time to talk me out of it.

02:55:17.080 - 02:55:34.200

They didn't say a word. They said, "Well, it was no use trying to talk you out of it." So when we came back, it was like a sigh of relief that I was on the truck because I didn't man there. So I told them I was talking to another man, I don't know where, oh it was

02:55:34.220 - 02:55:53.800

out at Blue Ash Airport where I was selling my books at an air show one day and this fellow came up and he said, he said, "Would you jump once more," he said, "and let me take pictures of you." Well, he happened to be the chief of police in Troy, Ohio, and He wants me to go up and take pictures of me.

02:55:53.900 - 02:56:09.060

And I said, OK. Well, meantime, I had found a cancerous thing here. And I had to have surgery. And I fell and broke my arm in November.

02:56:09.500 - 02:56:22.420

And then I had to have surgery in December. And then I had five weeks of radiation, five days a week. And the day after that, I had my knee replaced. So there was no way I could go up and jump out of an airplane.

02:56:23.000 - 02:56:32.620

So I haven't contacted him. And I thought, well, when I go back and the doctor says it's OK, well, I'll go up and let him take pictures. He wants to take pictures.

02:56:33.440 - 02:56:45.480

I'll jump once more. But it was really an experience. I mean, when you jump out of a plane, you're dropping 120 miles an hour.

02:56:45.860 - 02:56:57.440

That's why the wind's so strong. Then they pull the ripcord and you only fall 10 miles an hour. So that's why it's quiet. But I'll try it once more.

02:56:58.520 - 02:57:08.600

- And what age will you be when you try it? - I'll be, well, 80. I turned 80 last September. - You've had a very full life.

02:57:09.260 - 02:57:17.740

- I think so. - You've done so many things. - I think so. - Of all the things that you have done in your whole lifetime, what's the one thing

02:57:17.740 - 02:57:32.040

I don't know Aside from your children, what is the one thing that you're most proud of? Well, I think having the children

02:57:33.240 - 02:57:53.920

is one of the And they're still living and they're all healthy I think the one thing that really sets me is God's been so good to me I didn't, I never had any pain, well except birth pain, but I had good health up until

02:57:54.400 - 02:58:25.700

I was, I don't count the back, I had, I've been in the hospital about 20 some times for surgeries, but I don't count those because they were so, I was in and out and got well. And I think he's been so good to me that I've been able to have seven children and have him healthy and that he was good to me to let me be able to take care of Bill when

02:58:25.760 - 02:58:49.380

he had Alzheimer's. And I don't know, I just think that's been the biggest thing. I've had a good life and I've had some problems with my health and stuff, but who hasn't? And I'm just grateful I'm here yet.

02:58:50.320 - 02:59:12.860

And I'd like to spend a few more years with my grandchildren. I've got grandchildren, eleven, that are healthy. And my children are all self, I mean, they have provided for themselves. I mean, they have good homes, beautiful homes and everything.

02:59:14.120 - 02:59:33.620

And I'm just real happy with that. And friends. I've met some wonderful friends. And I can't think of anybody that I've met that's been detrimental to me or anything

02:59:33.820 - 02:59:51.360

like that. I've just had a good, you know, no problems really, no big problems. I know in everybody's lifetimes there are good times and there are bad times. There are happy times and there are sad times.

02:59:52.220 - 03:00:13.440

What has gotten you through those sad times? My faith, my faith in God, in my church, in my friends, but my faith in God I think even with all the scandals and stuff of the Catholic Church, that doesn't bother me because it's not the church, it's the humans in it.

03:00:13.810 - 03:00:32.720

And we're all human. And it's things that we have to work through, the human part of life. But if it hadn't been for my religion, for my church, I don't think I could have made it.

03:00:33.980 - 03:00:50.020

Because it's just been... And my friends, I've had wonderful friends. I've met famous people and I've met people that are ordinary, and they're all the same. I mean, they're just human, you know, and I just see no difference in them, to know

03:00:50.020 - 03:01:03.880

them. I just enjoy life. What is your personal opinion of Jacqueline Cochran? Well, I didn't tell you about the incident in '64.

03:01:06.740 - 03:01:25.980

That gave me more of an opinion of her. She was at the reunion and I had gone up to them. I don't know what I went upstairs in the hotel for. It was a big room and there she stood and she said, "Hey, you come here."

03:01:25.980 - 03:01:40.820

I was scared to death of her and I walked over to her and she grabbed the hold of my arm here with both of her arms, got a real big grip on me. She said, "I want you to stay here with me for a minute, for a few minutes." I said, "Okay."

03:01:40.820 - 03:01:56.520

She asked me several questions and stuff, and finally some men came in the doorway, and she saw them and she says, "Well, okay, you can go now." She took her arms off and gave me a shove in the middle of my back. "You can go now."

03:01:56.520 - 03:02:16.120

So I was, Dee Dee came up to my house there. Dee Dee, you know, the lady that was our house mother, you know. And she came out of my house and I was telling her about it. And she says, "Well, Betty," she said, "Jackie doesn't like to be alone."

03:02:17.560 - 03:02:30.300

And she said, "When we go on trips, I have to get two, you know, in a hotel, I get two rooms with a connecting door. I have to be sure she's in bed and then I can go to bed, but we have to leave the door open."

03:02:30.300 - 03:02:46.700

And she just doesn't want to be alone. And I said, so I figured out that I think Jackie's a wonderful person, she's got a big personality, but she was very insecure. She needed, you know, she didn't want to be alone.

03:02:47.420 - 03:03:00.320

In fact, Dee Dee told me she was afraid to be alone. And I think that's probably from her childhood. But I think she had our interests at heart, and she worked hard. If it wasn't for her, we wouldn't have been in the mosque.

03:03:02.820 - 03:03:20.340

I know that she was rough, like I said when I offered them that birthday cake that time. She knew, you know, she just didn't want to be bothered. But, you know, that's just her. And I really, I thought she was a very fine person.

03:03:21.580 - 03:03:43.340

What do you think the value of the Wash Provoct was? The what? The value and how it will be remembered. Now, from what I get from the women fliers of today, they all told me, and I talked to

03:03:43.440 - 03:03:59.160

several of them, and I know several of them, that if it hadn't been for us, for the program, the WASP program, they wouldn't have gotten to fly. They would have had a real tough time getting in. But when there was objection, they said,

03:03:59.160 - 03:04:09.760

well, we had women flyers in World War II. And then they couldn't object. And she said, several of them-- and I've heard several speeches, too, from them--

03:04:09.760 - 03:04:22.480

where if it hadn't been for the WASP, they wouldn't have gotten in. And I think it made a contribution for women. I'm not really for women being-- I'm sorry to say,

03:04:22.580 - 03:04:34.660

but I really don't think there's sometimes women should be more feminine, you know, not so pushy and everything. I think if they wanna do something,

03:04:34.900 - 03:04:45.580

and men have done it before, I mean, they should have a chance. But I don't think, I just, I think that they've really opened the way

03:04:45.720 - 03:05:02.160

for a lot of freedom for women and everything. What do you feel the Wasp legacy will be? - Well, I think they'll be just known as the first women flyers of any, you know,

03:05:02.380 - 03:05:15.340

in the Air Force, and I think that they'll be known for opening the way for women in military to do more than they, you know, than they have been able to do.

03:05:16.360 - 03:05:34.000

And I hope that we are remembered as women women of courage, of independent women, which I think that when we got together one time, we were trying to figure out what it was that we,

03:05:34.560 - 03:05:49.420

out of the 25,000 women, what there was when they interviewed us, that we were chosen. And we figured the biggest thing was our independence. And I think you have to be independent

03:05:49.420 - 03:06:09.020

to try something new like that in the military. You have to be independent to take the training, too. I mean, it wasn't that easy. And to take discipline, I think you

03:06:09.020 - 03:06:28.260

have to be independent and willing to take discipline. I think that's very important in any walk of life. For children too in school, discipline I think is really very, very important for people in life.

03:06:29.000 - 03:06:58.160

What do you feel your legacy will be? I don't know. I hope that the kids say I'm a good mother and I hope my friends say that they like me and I was a good friend. I don't know, I just hope that I've done the right thing

03:06:58.160 - 03:07:37.200

in life and that I came through any difficulties okay. That's all I mean. If you could say something to your grandchildren, say 25 years from now, or other children who will be watching you and listening to you on this film, what would you like to say to them that might encourage or motivate them to do something to follow their dreams just

03:07:37.200 - 03:07:58.440

as you follow your dreams? What would you say to them? Well what I have said, and I've given talks to Girl Scouts, little kids, I've given talks to high school students, a couple classes, and I've told them all, I said if you have

03:07:58.440 - 03:08:34.680

a dream and you want it bad enough, I said nothing is impossible. Nothing. Just don't let life discourage you. If you really, really want to be in a certain work or a certain study or anything, don't let anything discourage you because nothing is impossible if you really want to do it. And I feel that way. I know things looked impossible many times to me,

03:08:35.600 - 03:09:02.000

and I just didn't think about it. I just went ahead and tried it. I think that when you try something, I mean, at least you feel that you've tried to do it. And that's the best you can do. That's the way I feel. Is there anything that I have left out that you would like to tell us about anything in

03:09:02.000 - 03:09:35.240

your life before being a WASP, during the WASP, or since then that you would like to talk about? Well, I know that people have a sort of a negative feeling about orphanages and everything, But I think my experience has added to my life, that it's helped me to get through

03:09:35.300 - 03:10:15.440

a lot of tough things. Not because it was tough, but because I had to be independent. I had to have the courage to go ahead and be different. I went to so many different schools, and it just didn't give me the... I don't know,

03:10:15.440 - 03:10:40.200

I just feel that nothing that I want to do, if I really want to do it bad enough, isn't hard to try, at least you can try. Then if it doesn't work, okay, but you've tried. I just feel that probably in a way that it was a good experience for me, although it

03:10:40.280 - 03:11:00.020

doesn't sound like it. I often wonder how in the world I ever got through intelligence by going to the different I mean, going in and out of schools, nine different schools in twelve years. I mean, changing schools nine times in twelve years.

03:11:00.860 - 03:11:15.300

But, I came out. I may not be the most intelligent person, but I got through whatever I needed, and I got through the WASP. So that's, you know.

03:11:18.740 - 03:11:32.040

Can I ask you before we wrap, she's going to wrap this up. When you took that first ride in the airplane and the guy spun the plane and did all that and you went in the bathroom and threw up and cried, remember? Tell us about that.

03:11:32.500 - 03:11:45.560

Why in the world did you get back in the plane again? Because I wanted to and I was determined to and I wasn't going to let him discourage me. I mean, I just got mad.

03:11:45.720 - 03:12:02.740

I thought, "I want to do that and he's trying to discourage me." And it made me mad. When I want to do something, and it's not something, I mean, let's see what I want to say.

03:12:05.560 - 03:12:20.220

If I want to do something bad enough, and somebody says you can't, that's a word I hate, is I can't. And I just think, well, let me try at least. I mean, give me a break.

03:12:20.420 - 03:12:33.900

You know, let me try it and see what it's like. And then, okay, then let me make the decision. You know, and I really got upset with him. I mean, I was so mad, I mean, that he would do that to me.

03:12:34.860 - 03:12:45.700

And then when I found out that he didn't like it, you know, I kind of got the idea he didn't want to teach. And I almost said to him, too, you know, well, I don't want you to teach me or something like that.

03:12:46.260 - 03:12:59.160

well if he's determined to do it, maybe he will. But that's how I felt. I just, the fact that he, you know, turned his screen. - Okay, another thing I wanted to ask you is

03:12:59.220 - 03:13:10.820

when you and Gail Snell went out and sat in her car and sang, what'd you sing? - All the songs that were done in the, that we had on our song sheets

03:13:11.100 - 03:13:21.460

and we sang other songs and stuff and laughed and talked about different things. And just, you know, we were sitting there having a good time getting loaded.

03:13:22.420 - 03:13:36.060

Actually, we didn't get loaded, but it made us feel good, relaxed us and everything. Yeah, we just, you know, the Air Force song, you know, Wild Blue Yonder.

03:13:39.080 - 03:13:44.580

What are some of the others? - Anything to do with flying. - Yeah. - Okay, that's what I'm doing.

03:13:44.780 - 03:13:55.920

- Betty, I've got to tell you, there are gonna be children who watch this years to come. You're gonna be an inspiration to them. - I hope so, thank you.

03:13:57.360 - 03:14:07.260

But that's what I finish my talk with, I tell the girls. And then I always ask them if there's any questions they wanna ask. And those little kids put their hand up

03:14:07.260 - 03:14:23.960

and ask some of the most intelligent questions. It really is great. But they, I think it's very important for the children, you know, to know that they can do something

03:14:24.140 - 03:14:32.280

if they really want to. There's no, I mean, they shouldn't be discouraged. - You proved it. - Yeah, well, it's--

03:14:32.640 - 03:14:46.240

- Your kids must be awfully proud. - Yeah, well, they are, and they're good kids, and I'm proud of them, too. We thank you so much for coming all the way to Waco to do this.

03:14:46.300 - 03:15:02.560

Thank you for interviewing us. Okay, that's a wrap. I think we're done. Just watch your head when you stand up. I want to tell you something about Cochran that gave me a new insight to her.

03:15:02.700 - 03:15:26.900

When we got there, I remember her telling us in that opening thing in the mess hall, said, "You may be in a man's world, you may be flying a man's airplane, but I want you to remember, when you get out of that airplane, you're a lady. And I want you to look like a lady, and I want you to act like a lady, and don't you ever forget it."

03:15:27.740 - 03:15:39.180

It sounds like her. She was like that. Absolutely. She...