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Roll those bars. Well, I'm glad you came. I hope that it doesn't... Well, I hope you'll say that in about three hours from now. [Laughter]

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Because we're getting your whole story. We don't want anything... Well, glory to God. We don't want to cheat you on your story.

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Everybody has a story. Well, I think the Irish need to be represented. I mean, you're our first crew. I'm full-blooded Irish.

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I know. How did you know that? We are rolling. Okay, I'm Deanie Parrish.

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We're in the home of Elizabeth Strofus. She was a WASP, Class 44-1. Yay! We're in Fairbault, Minnesota.

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Today is the first day of August, 2001. Okay, Liz, if you will give us your name and when and where you were born. My name is Elizabeth Bridget Wall...

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[Sobbing] ...Lang's legs. Oh, I forgot Robert's. [Laughter]

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I'm Elizabeth Wall. Give them all to us. Until I give them all to you. Okay, Elizabeth Bridget Wall.

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I was married to Arthur Roberts. I was Mrs. Roberts. Then I was married to Frances Lonslake, and I was Mrs. Lonslake.

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Then I married Martin Strofus. I lost all my husbands. My last husband died a year ago last January. Okay, and when--

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And now widow. When and where were you born, Liz? I was born in Fairbault, Minnesota, November 15, 1919. Good.

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Tell us something about your mom and dad. Oh, I had a wonderful mother and father. We were so blessed. We had such a wonderful family and a family life.

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My father was a retired man when he-- He had had a heart attack at the age of 52, and he had to sell his 2 farms in the Vesley area, and he moved into Fairbault.

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He lived across the street from where my mother was staying at her brother and sister's home. And they became--he became a good friend of Mama's. Mama was a little concerned because she didn't really know Dan,

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so she went to our local priest up here, Father Slevin, and she asked Father Slevin about Daniel Wall, and she said, "Daniel--he said, 'Daniel Wall is an upright person, "'a gentleman at all times, and if you have anything to do with him,

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"'you don't have to have any worry because he's a good person.'" So they got married. Daddy was 54 years old when he married Mama, so all of our children were--his children were born of older parents.

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Mama was 15 years younger than Daddy. Well, at the time, Daddy had all this money from his farm, so he bought a home and paid cash for it, and then eventually he had 6 children.

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My sister Mary Agnes was the oldest, then my brother George, he was a year and a half younger, then my sister Catherine, she was a year-- a little less than a year younger than George,

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then my sister Julianne, and Julie was a little-- just about a year and a half younger than Catherine, and then I was born in November 1919, then my sister Cecilia was born,

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and she was born in February of 1922. We were a very close family. They always say the family that prays together stays together, and we prayed together.

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Every night we said the rosary, and we got older, and we were going out on dates. Our boyfriends had to sit in the other room, wait until we finished our rosary,

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or they could join us, whichever they preferred. The home that your dad bought, was it in town inside Fairbald, or was it out on the outskirts or out in the country? Right in town, and it's still kept up very well.

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722 Northwest 3rd Street, and we're really appreciative because they've kept up the farm--I mean the home. In fact, I think Daddy paid something like $1,200 for it, and I think the other day it was selling for $102,000.

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What did your dad do? My father was a farmer, but as you see, he was a retired farmer when he came to town and married Mama. Well, he thought he had enough money--

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well, 1929 came the crash, and he had had his money in the bank, and he lost his money. He never trusted the banks again, and rightly so at that time. What are your earliest remembrances of your childhood?

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Oh, I had such a good childhood. My family called me Pollyanna. Every day was a beautiful day to me. We were poor, but I never knew we were poor.

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My father coming from a farm, we had a-- Those years we were right in town, we had a chicken coop of chickens. We had a beautiful garden. We had a whole half lot of garden, and we had a root cellar,

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and so we'd raise the food, and all of us pitched in and kept the weeds out. And being the good farmer he was, he saw that everything was really kept up well. So we had good harvest.

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Every year we had a harvest, and we put as much as we needed in the root cellar. The carrots, the onions, the potatoes were all put in the basement for the winter. And we'd make a big crock of sauerkraut, and we'd have the sauerkraut all winter long,

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and some of his friends would give him some meat, and we'd can the meat. So we were very lucky. And then those years--I think hamburger was 2 pounds for 25 cents. [laughs]

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Loaf of bread was 10 cents. But we very seldom had baker's bread. For my friends who would come in from the farm or from around town area, they would think it's such a treat to have my mother's homemade bread.

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And we'd have such a treat. If they had baker's bread sandwiches, we'd trade because, "Oh, it was like cake." But Mama made good substantial bread. But Mama was a beautiful person.

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Where did you start school? I started school at the Malcolm Conception School. Was it close? It was 11 blocks because we weren't a mile away from school.

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It was 11 blocks, so we had to walk home for lunch. We had to run home for lunch to make it back to school in time. Tell me about your grandparents. I never knew either parents.

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See, Mama and Daddy were both older, and they were all passed away. I really felt sorry. After I became a grandmother, wouldn't it be nice because I'd take the grandchildren, we'd go have a little fun and get all dirty and do lots of fun things

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and then bring them home to their parents. [laughs] But it wasn't that way with us. So I always admired people who had grandparents. My grandparents all came from Maryland.

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That's the way it was. Do you remember any of your teachers in elementary school? Yes, I do. I had some wonderful, wonderful-- I had nuns when I was in the elementary school.

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So that was a private school. That was a private school, religious school. It wasn't easy, but my father sent every one of us to an elementary Catholic school. It was a different thing when we got into high school.

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My sister Mary, oh, she was such a lady. I just loved my sister Mary. I loved them all, but Mary was such a lady. She went to Bethlehem Academy.

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After Mary and Catherine and Julia, then I came along, and they said, "Are you sure you're Mary Walsh's sister?" I was kind of carefree. I did the best I could, but if I didn't do so good, I really didn't care too much.

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But I did the best I could. What do you remember about elementary school? What impressed you when you were in elementary school? What impressed me?

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Well, in elementary school as I was, I suppose, in a lot of the schools at that time, there were cliques. I didn't realize it. I was a happy person. I had a few friends.

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Anybody who would come in, it was new. I always made sure that I would say--in fact, I didn't remember him. This one gal came in in 3rd grade, and she still tells it today. She said, "I'll never forget," because you came up to me and said,

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"My name's Elizabeth. What's your name? Let's play." And she was new, coming from the country school. I didn't realize what an impact that made on her, but she just tells it today. I still see her around town.

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So that made me feel good. Tell me some of the games you played as a child. Hopscotch. Oh, I was a good baseball player. In fact, that was their picture.

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The baseball girls beat the baseball boys. [laughs] And I wished I had that write-up, because they wrote it up in the paper because it was a little different for women to play baseball.

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And here I was 12, 13, 14 years old. I had all the local boys come around. They wanted me on their team because I was such a good pitcher. [laughs]

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But that's the way it was. I loved baseball. And then when you finished elementary, you went to junior high. Was it in the same building? Did you go to a different school? Yes, I went to a different school after 8th grade.

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The Catholic school went up to 8th grade. Then 9th grade I went into the Faribault High School. It was all together, 9th through 12th. We had no middle schools or anything like that.

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It was elementary and then high school. Oh, and to begin with, you see, when I was in the Catholic school, you got in line to go to class, you got in line to go wherever you were going. You kept quiet in the halls.

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You were not supposed to make all this racket, which I don't think hurt any of us. We had discipline. We got in high school, and glory be to God, they scared the hell out of me.

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Anyway, they scared me because they were so loud. And I'd sit in the room, and the teacher would ask a question, and I'd hold my hand up, and the rest of them were hooting and shouting. And he'd say, "Miss Wall, you don't have to hold your hand up.

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If you have something to say, you can say it." Well, I said, "I was taught to hold my hand up, which I was called upon." [laughter] Do you recall how was a child disciplined in elementary school,

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in the Catholic school, if they did something wrong? Did they stand in the corner? Well, they were taken to the--you know, I was a goody-goody person. I didn't realize I was, but if they told me to do something, I did it.

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If some guy got hit by the ruber on their hand, it didn't really hurt. Or they had to go see the principal. Were your teachers in elementary school all nuns, or did you have-- They were all nuns at that time, yes.

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Liz, tell me what a Christmas was like in your home when you were growing up. Well, I thought it was a beautiful time, and our focus was on the spiritual side. In fact, I never even realized--we never got gifts. We had fruit at Christmas, special fruit, and to me, I thought that was wonderful.

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I know later years, when I was at my grandchild's home, they said, "Grandma, tell us about how it was when you had Christmas, and tell us about all the gifts you received." I said, "You know, children, you don't want me to tell you about the gifts we received

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because we received fruit at Christmas." I said, "I never really--I thought there was a Santa Claus, but I thought he only came to the rich." I never resented. I didn't resent that.

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I was perfectly happy in my state of life. I just felt I had a wonderful family and a caring and loving. For us, it was a beautiful time at Christmas for the spiritual side. I was going to ask you about at church,

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the services that they might have at church during the Christmas season. Did it differ from church all the time, or did they have special-- It was special. We had, on the altar, we had the nativity scene,

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and we'd always bring our pennies up for the nativity scene. We didn't have much money, but we always had pennies to give at the nativity. Do you know what those pennies were for? Were they for missionaries?

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They were for the poor. We had poor in our own family, but as I said, I never thought I was poor. I never knew I was poor until I grew up and found out what the rest of them had, and I thought, "Ah, that's nice."

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When you got to high school, at ninth grade, when you went on into high school, then what were your teachers? They were not nuns at that point. Oh, no. They were mostly men.

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We had teachers. Our geometry teacher was a woman, and an English teacher was a woman, but outside of that, they were mostly men teachers. As a younger child, what were your dreams?

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My dreams--well, I always wanted to be somebody. I loved my family, but I was just one of six, and I was always just a little different. I loved the outdoors.

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In the wintertime, I'd dig a big mound and then make a hole in it, and it would be my house. I just liked to sit in there. I mean, they'd come and call me for dinner.

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I did crazy things. And I also liked to climb. I'd climb a lot. I used to climb on top of the roof and just sit there.

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I just liked the--that is why this fellow would come up-- when I worked at the local courthouse after I got out of high school-- I graduated in 1937. I wasn't remarkable at school.

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I would say average. What was your ambition when you were in high school? What did you plan to do with your life? I really didn't know.

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I just--I knew. You see, after I got out of high school--my father died in 1940. Daddy was very ill while I was in high school. He was old at that time.

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And he got--they called it--they didn't call it dementia or Alzheimer's, but they called it hardening of the arteries, and he became confused. And so we did a lot with our dad. We had two old uncles of my father's brothers.

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They got old. They didn't have any place to go. They came to our house, and they stayed. We--you know, that's the way you did it those years. You just took care of your own.

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In high school, what activities were you involved in other than academics? Always sports, yes. In fact, I won my letter at the beginning of my junior high. My sophomore year, I won my letter because I put in so many hours.

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Oh, deck tennis, basketball. They didn't have a baseball field--baseball for women at that time. But I had so many hours in sports that I got my letter. Because being a woman, you only got one letter.

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The fellows could get as many letters as they earned, but that was okay. In high school, what was your social life like? I didn't have too much social life in high school. I did go to the--we had dances.

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They were--what did they call them? After-school dances. And I really--ah, I loved to dance. And my sister Julianne was a beautiful dancer, and she used to teach all of us how to dance.

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Were you interested in music at all? I loved to listen to music, though. Otherwise, I was really not--well, you see, we were so limited in income, I didn't want to make my sights too high.

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I didn't know what we would be doing later on, but I just knew. I knew I loved life, and I really lived life to the fullest, even those years. What was your favorite subject in high school? In high school, my favorite subject?

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Oh, I think it was literature, because I liked-- probably because I liked the professor there. [laughs] He wrote on my--because he was always so--he was always gentle with me, because the rest of the Mahouton and Hollard, he'd always scold them

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or told it down, and he always treated me with such respect. I was kind of timid and naive, and he wrote in my book, he said, "A woodland breeze is little Liz. I wish I could be where she is." I remember that to this day. [laughs]

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And I just felt very close to him, because he was understanding of the way I felt. I really felt like, you know, they're all so smart, and they all know everything. Do you recall your high school prom? Did you have a prom? Oh, yes, I had a wonderful time.

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I had a friend in--Gracy was in the lower grade behind me in school, and she had two brothers. One brother was two years ahead of her, and the other one was a year ahead of him, Teddy and Leroy Richter.

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I was so pleased. Teddy Richter was a friend of mine through his sisters, and he was one of the best dancers in school. He asked me to go to the junior prom with him.

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I was very proud, because I liked to dance with Teddy. So we had a wonderful time. What kind of dancing did you do? Mostly--they call it swing now, but it was mostly the boogie-woogie dancing.

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I didn't do [makes clicking sound] that tight, but a lot of swinging. Do you remember your dress? Did your mom sew, or where did you get your clothes? Where did I get the junior high school dress? Oh, I'm sure it was from one of my sisters.

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See, I had three older sisters. I was dressed well. Not ever fair to say it. Any other time that you went with any boys, where did you go?

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If you had a date, where would you go? Well, I'll tell you. We had three older sisters. Now Mary was very--she didn't go with boys too much.

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She really wanted to become a nun. When she got out of school, she went to speak to Father Foley, and she said she'd like to become a nun. You see, she graduated in '32, and Father said,

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"You know, Mary, I think your family needs you." At that time, Daddy was ill, and we didn't have much money. My brother had gotten a job, bring the money home. He said, "I really think at this point that it would be more helpful

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if you stayed home and helped your family." So Mary got a job and brought her money home to Mama. Never said a word about wanting to be a nun again. Was there competition among you girls?

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No. As far as boyfriends, did you like the same boys? Oh, no. I'll tell you what happened. Some of the boys would come--if one wasn't available,

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they'd take the other one. [laughs] So it was--I never felt any jealousy. I don't know.

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I had such a good time in growing up never knowing. When I was in high school, I was very shy. Can you believe that? [laughs] Very shy.

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So that's why this later life has been a real boom for me. But then in my senior--and Mother, because we had the older two-- now, Kath Mary was a lady at all times and never went anywhere. Very seldom did she ever date.

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My sister, Kath, and then Julie came along. [laughs] They liked to dance, and they would dance day and night. And they'd always play mom against dad.

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They'd say, "Can I go to the dance?" "Well, it's up to your mother." "Mother said yes if you said yes," unless they got together on it.

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So Julie and Mary, they would go with our older cousins who were about 10, 12 years older than we were because our parents married so late, and my mother's siblings had married earlier,

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so they were all older than us. In fact, we have no first cousins anymore. They've all passed away. Liz, as you were growing up, did you have vacations,

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or what did you do during the summer? I never even got to the Twin Cities until I was in the junior-- between junior and senior year, and that's because by this time my sister, Katharine, was married.

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And she brought me up to the cities, so I went to State Fair. That's the first time I've ever been out of the city. Oh, I've been out to the lakes, you know, around, but I'd never been out of a fair boat.

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During your high school, did you work any after school or-- No, I didn't. No, I didn't. Okay. Let's go to your seat. I'll tell you why I didn't.

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My sisters worked-- I did pick beans. Daddy would take us out, and we'd pick some beans. But when I was about 4 or 5 years old, I had my fingers behind a door where the hinges are,

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and my cousins shut the door, and they were mashed, really mashed. In fact, they thought they'd have to cut the thumbs off. In fact, when I was in the service, they kept sending back my reports saying I have to take some more fingerprints

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because the prints didn't come through. The skin, it would peel and peel and peel and peel. So because my hands were so bad, I'd have to wear thumbstalls in school. How old were you when that happened?

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Only about 4 or 5. So I wore thumbstalls all the time in grade school. Just imagine my poor mother had to make clean thumbstalls every day, and she had to use material, you know, we had nothing else to use.

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What were they, like little caps? She'd sew them, and then I'd have this around. These 3 were the worst. You see, this finger never grew very tall.

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It peeled and peeled. So that was why--my sisters worked in the canning company in the summer, but I couldn't because I couldn't get my hands in hot or cold water. And so I helped around the house.

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Right. Who did most of the cooking at the house? Oh, my mother did. And did you girls have chores? Oh, yes. We had this nice home, but we had one big dormitory for the girls,

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and then we had a room for George and a room for Mother and Father. And so there were 5 of us in one room, and we all had to take care of certain things in that room and help with the household. I wondered, like dish washing, did you take turns?

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I did dish wiping. I didn't do any dish washing because of my hands. Okay. As a senior in high school, do you remember that prom? Oh, sure. Oh, yes, I do. Oh, I was crazy about this fella.

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We used to go on powwows. Powwows, we called them, and it were weenie rows. And my sister liked his brother, and I liked him, and we had the girls down the block.

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She liked his cousin, so it was kind of a family affair. We'd go down to the Central Park mostly for the wonderful, wonderful concerts we had on Thursdays, and we'd meet them there. Then we'd make plans for a powwow out at another place.

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Were these concerts like a symphony concert? What kind of concerts were they? It was more like the band music. Wonderful. I loved it all. And so we'd go there, and then we'd make plans to go down to the powwow,

00:24:09.000 - 00:24:21.000

and we'd get our bikes. We'd ride on their bikes because we didn't have bikes. We had to wait until we got out of school and buy our own. Tell me about your graduation from high school. Did you have caps and gowns?

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Yes, we did. We had caps and gowns. And it was a wonderful time. In fact, I forgot I went out with Del. I forgot who I went out with.

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I went with Del for my party. We had people living across the street, the Millers family. The girl was as old as my sister Mary. And there was another young man, John.

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He was an awfully nice young man, but he had epilepsy. None of us understood it at the time. That was kind of scary. And the next one was Bill, and he graduated with me,

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and so our families were very close. But for graduation, they had a party, and neither Bill and I were there. We were off with our friends. We went off and had a party.

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Did you know when you graduated what you wanted to do or if you were going on to school or what was going to happen? I knew there was no chance at all I'd go on to school. Oh, did I want to be a physical education teacher?

00:25:24.000 - 00:25:38.000

You can't believe I could do every acrobatics. Miss Ackerbach would come to town, and she'd do all these acrobats on stage, and I was one of them, even I think I was better than a couple of them. I was very, very athletic, as I said.

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I did tumbling a lot. I loved the tumbling team. I wanted to be a physical education teacher, but I knew there was no chance because we didn't have the money or the means.

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At that time, there were no means that you could go on to college if your family didn't have any money. We knew we'd go out and get a job, so we'd bring money home to Mama and Mama wanted to keep her home.

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So then what did you do after you graduated? By this time, my sister Mary, who was working for-- Can I tell you one little story about Mary? Mary was such a wonderful gal.

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She was working in an oil station at the time. She was keeping books for them. During the crash, 1929 crash, our priest, Father Foley,

00:26:26.000 - 00:26:40.000

was down at the bank, and everybody was screaming and hollering for their money. Father Foley came in and he said, "I want to deposit $50." He said it loud and clear. So many of them became ashamed of what they were doing

00:26:40.000 - 00:26:56.000

because he was trying to keep the bank open for this banker, and he deposited his $50. Afterwards, the president of the bank-- I forgot the name.

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Anyway, there's this kind of weather, so sometimes it catches up with me. But the president of the bank went to see Father Foley later, and he said, "Father Foley, you don't know what you did

00:27:13.000 - 00:27:25.000

not only to help me with the bank, to help me have to do what I have to do. I just really appreciate your support, and if I could ever do anything for you, you just let me know."

00:27:25.000 - 00:27:40.000

Well, a few years later, when Mary got out of school, Mary was working at this oil station, not getting very much money, because there wasn't much money to be had at that time. And Father Foley went down to the banker, and he said,

00:27:40.000 - 00:27:54.000

"You said if you could ever do something for me, I wish you could help one of my parishioners. Her name is Mary Wall. She's a very nice young lady, and you couldn't have a better employee,

00:27:54.000 - 00:28:10.000

and I would appreciate it if you'd take her on in your bank to get a job." And he said, "Consider it done." "Consider it done," he told the priest. So my sister started-- [phone rings]

00:28:10.000 - 00:28:20.000

I'm going to turn off. Okay. Okay. And so Mary was hired by the bank,

00:28:20.000 - 00:28:35.000

and she had as good a job as a woman could have in the city of Faribault at that time. I don't remember what the salary was, but it was pretty good to come home, and it kind of kept us going while the rest of us were in school.

00:28:35.000 - 00:28:49.000

Then one day Lucia Smith, who was an attorney in town-- in fact, he was the oldest practicing attorney in Faribault, and that is another story. Anyway, he hired--he came to the bank,

00:28:49.000 - 00:29:05.000

and he was one of the board of directors, and he recognized a good secretary when he saw one. And in time, his girl was going to quit, so he came. He did ask the banker, he said, "I really would appreciate it."

00:29:05.000 - 00:29:17.000

He would give her more money, and the banker said, "Well, I cannot give her more money at this time, "and so it would be best if Mary went to work for you." And so she did.

00:29:17.000 - 00:29:31.000

Then Mary would go to the courthouse. Then she heard that Al Hiney, who was a Register of Deeds, needed a worker in his office. So she sent me in to be interviewed.

00:29:31.000 - 00:29:42.000

And because Mary is the one that suggested me, I got the job right away. So that's what I did. I got a position in the Register of Deeds, and then I later became Deputy Register of Deeds.

00:29:42.000 - 00:29:57.000

At that time, how big was Faribault? Oh, I'd say it was about 10,000, about 10,000. Now it's only about 20, so it didn't grow that much. So then you got a job as a secretary.

00:29:57.000 - 00:30:13.000

Had you had secretarial training in high school? Oh, you know, when you go to high school, as a girl, if you didn't take up home economics, then you took up office training. So I took shorthand and typing and bookkeeping, and that's what I took up.

00:30:13.000 - 00:30:27.000

So when I got out, I was prepared. I did a lot of typing. In fact, I typed every contract, every mortgage deed, every deed, warranty deed that was filed in the county at that time.

00:30:27.000 - 00:30:42.000

I'm the one that recorded it all. Elizabeth B. Wall on every one of those papers, that was me. And I had no machine, and it was-- at that time we had bound books, and they were this large.

00:30:42.000 - 00:30:58.000

I mean, they were just not little books. And I'd have to put it down and put the page-- no, first put this big frame--it was like a big frame--put the frame down, and then put this little--like a teletype, more than a typewriter--

00:30:58.000 - 00:31:11.000

this teletype on top, and then I had to pound out all these. And I typed every one of the deeds. And you know, for a while I had another girl there, Marie Wunderlich was the deputy registrar of deeds when I first worked there.

00:31:11.000 - 00:31:26.000

But then she went off and got married, and I was the only one in that office. And I'm telling you, I worked--we worked 6 1/2 days a week. And I was supposed to get off at noon on Saturday, and I never got off until 2 or 3

00:31:26.000 - 00:31:47.000

because I stayed until my work was done, and I had a lot of work to do. When did you first become interested in airplanes? Well, at that time, I really--besides working, I didn't really do too much. The work around the house and my job practically took all my time.

00:31:47.000 - 00:32:03.000

Oh, I did have a few boyfriends. We'd go rowing on the lake. We have 10 lakes within the city of Faribault, the Rice County area, and so we had a lot of lakes. And I went to a few dances, but I don't know.

00:32:03.000 - 00:32:20.000

When you go to the lake, would you have a rowboat or a little speedboat? I went out in a canoe with my boyfriend. [laughs] In fact, I'll tell you, one time--yeah, I was out of school. I went with my friend Joel Hamory, and we went skiing.

00:32:20.000 - 00:32:36.000

It was skiing time, and we went up to this hill. I went down a little hill. I had never skied before in my life. He had skis for me to wear, and so then he went over this jump. Well, that looks easy. [laughs]

00:32:36.000 - 00:32:50.000

So I went over the jump, landed on my knee, cracked my knee, ended up being cast for 6 weeks. But you know, I could--first I had crutches for a while, and I could handle it without crutches. I used to run on my crutches.

00:32:50.000 - 00:33:11.000

I was terrible. I did acrobatics on my crutches. I was really a wild one in that manner. I just loved to goof off in that manner, yeah, not hurting anybody, just myself. Tell us about the first aircraft, maybe first airplane you saw.

00:33:11.000 - 00:33:23.000

Were you interested at all? Oh, I'd see the little planes around town. I thought that was nice. But as a youngster, what really, I guess, turned me on, as a youngster, I would love to climb.

00:33:23.000 - 00:33:40.000

I'd even shimmy up the telephone pole. I mean, I did crazy things. I'd sit in the roof. I mean, I just liked to look over the beautiful world God made. So one day at the courthouse, this man, Frank Matichak, who owned an implement company here in town,

00:33:40.000 - 00:33:57.000

he would bring up contracts for me to file. He kept talking about this flying, because he belonged to the flying club here in town. Oh, flying. And he could see that I was interested. He said, "Well, would you like a flight?" Oh, boy, would I like a flight.

00:33:57.000 - 00:34:14.000

So I went out to the local airport. He drove me out in his truck. I took a flight with Al Volga, one of our instructors, that one later became our instructor. So we went up about 3,500 feet and did a spin, and pulled up into a stall into a spin.

00:34:14.000 - 00:34:28.000

He turned around and looked at me, and I said, "One more time." After 10 one-more times, he didn't look around anymore. [laughs] He landed that airplane, and he looked a little green. But anyway, then he came back to me, and he said, "You know, Betty,"

00:34:28.000 - 00:34:45.000

because they said, "What do you want to be called?" I wanted to be called Betty. Right from there, I felt this is a whole new phase of my life. I wanted to be called--I always liked the name Betty. I always said, "My name is Betty." And he said, "You know, whatever you ever do in this life, you have to learn how to fly."

00:34:45.000 - 00:35:05.000

I've made everyone else sick that I took up, but you're the only one that's made me sick. And for me, it was love at first flight, and that was the name of my book, because I love--I fell in love with flying. I knew I had to do it. There were no women flying there at the Sky Club.

00:35:05.000 - 00:35:26.000

What kind of airplane was that? A 65-horsepower Cub. It was beautiful. I just loved that airplane. So after that--you see, when I got out of school and got a job, we had no transportation, so I got a bicycle. I bought a bicycle, and that was my means of transportation.

00:35:26.000 - 00:35:50.000

I'm back and forth. It wasn't too far from where I worked, but my bicycle was my transportation. And so I'd bike out the airport, and I'd wait till--if somebody wanted ballast in the plane, I'd jump in the plane. If they even looked at me, that was in the plane. And I did their book work. I did their office work. I used to sweep their floor.

00:35:50.000 - 00:36:11.000

I'd do anything to fly. So I just hung around the airport. What did your mother think about this? She thought I was a little crazy. She really didn't know too much about my interest in flying. You see, I said--I thought if I said too much about it to her that she'd say I can't fly.

00:36:11.000 - 00:36:28.000

I had to fly. So I kind of kept it undercover. Then one day--we had a Sky Club, and there were 15 fellas in the club, and one of the fellas was joining the Air Corps. And they came to me, and they said, "Now, Betty, you can join our club."

00:36:28.000 - 00:36:50.000

I said, "Well, what does it cost?" "Oh, it only costs $100." I was making $50 a month at the courthouse. I'd bring the money home to Mama. I had older sisters. I had all the clothes I needed. I went home to eat. I had no problem about living. So $5 was enough for me for the week.

00:36:50.000 - 00:37:12.000

So I said, "Well, $100." "Well, yes, and then you can join our club." So then I went down to the local bank. I heard they loaned money. And I said, "Mr. Cowell, I'd like to borrow some money." You see, that was the same bank my sister worked at for a while.

00:37:12.000 - 00:37:31.000

And he said, "Well, what do you want $100, Miss Wall? What do you want $100 for?" I said, "I have to learn how to fly." "Oh," he said, "women don't fly." I said, "This one's going to." So he said, "Well, what do you have got for collateral?" What did I know about collateral? Well, I said, "I own a bike."

00:37:31.000 - 00:37:52.000

And, you know, he never said a word. He went and got the papers, and he had me sign. And I didn't even know until later that bank presidents do not sign for being loaned money. And on my bicycle, he co-signed my note, and I got my $100. And I went and joined the Sky Club.

00:37:52.000 - 00:38:05.000

And for me, it was a complete turnabout. I was so shy and naive up until that time. All of a sudden, I'm doing something on my own. I'm doing something I want to do.

00:38:05.000 - 00:38:18.000

Up until that time, I just went with the flow. I did what I had to do, which was okay. But I was afraid to tell my mother because I had never disobeyed my mother. At times, there was one time I was really upset with my mother

00:38:18.000 - 00:38:28.000

when she wouldn't let me go to a dancing place that was outside under the stars and was supposed to be very romantic. And no way would she let me go there. I found out later why.

00:38:28.000 - 00:38:43.000

But she always was the one to tell us what we should or shouldn't do because by this time, my father had passed away. I thought it was the end of my world when my dad died in 1940. It was a real sad time.

00:38:43.000 - 00:38:56.000

And why wouldn't she let you go to that place? What was wrong with that place to dance? Well, it was--they drank, and there were things going on that ladies should not see.

00:38:56.000 - 00:39:07.000

And my mother raised ladies. So I was glad later that she didn't let me go. Then I found out later that some of the people that I was going with were not the nicest people.

00:39:07.000 - 00:39:17.000

But how did I know? There was a bunch of boys, a bunch of girls, and I thought it was-- Tell me about your first flight with an instructor. Oh, my.

00:39:17.000 - 00:39:28.000

My first flight--oh, my. I just couldn't believe--I could not believe when I got up there, and everybody looked so small. I mean, everybody--and all of a sudden, they disappeared

00:39:28.000 - 00:39:41.000

because we were too high to see them. But to see the beautiful land that God had made and to see our beautiful country of Faribault and Rice County-- beautiful--see the lakes, see the green.

00:39:41.000 - 00:39:55.000

Because I took my first flight in-- I've got it written down--I think it was in May of 1942. It was so beautiful. I was struck by the beauty of our land.

00:39:55.000 - 00:40:07.000

That really turned me on. And to be there--nothing holded us up. The plane was actually taking us in the air. It was one of the most beautiful times in my life, I tell you.

00:40:07.000 - 00:40:19.000

I never felt closer to God than I did on my first flight, and that's the truth. Tell me-- (woman) She's not going to be able to do it in a minute.

00:40:19.000 - 00:40:27.000

No, I know. This is the good stuff. We're getting to the good stuff. Oh, it's all good.

00:40:27.000 - 00:40:37.000

(woman) How will children be enthralled by your story? No. No, I would--no. Don't ask her anything and change the tape?

00:40:37.000 - 00:40:48.000

No, just change the tape. Okay. Okay. Tell me where you were and how you felt

00:40:48.000 - 00:41:05.000

when you heard about Pearl Harbor. Okay, December 7, 1941. My boyfriend, Arthur Roberts, and I had got out for a walk. We went on hikes.

00:41:05.000 - 00:41:18.000

Who did anything that cost money those years? Neither one of us had much money. He was working at a bakery. And, um, '41, yeah, I was working at the courthouse.

00:41:18.000 - 00:41:27.000

We both gave our monies to our families, but we really didn't have the money to go to shows and that sort of thing. We went to very few shows.

00:41:27.000 - 00:41:36.000

We very seldom ever went out to eat, but we did--mostly we did walks. We loved to hike. We loved to hike.

00:41:36.000 - 00:41:47.000

So we had been out walking, and we came home, and my folks and my sister Catherine, who was married at the time, and I believe she had one child,

00:41:47.000 - 00:41:59.000

and they were at the house. They come down usually almost every weekend, and they were all huddled around this radio. And we asked, you know, "What's the big deal?

00:41:59.000 - 00:42:07.000

What's the big deal?" And they said, "We're at war." I said, "We can't be at war. We're not ready to go to war."

00:42:07.000 - 00:42:22.000

And they said, "Yes, that Japan had started this-- this diving and killing all these people and all our beautiful airships at Pearl Harbor." And we were both really, really shocked.

00:42:22.000 - 00:42:33.000

I mean, it's something like, "No, this isn't real. This isn't the real world. Nobody's going to bomb America-- not for America--against America."

00:42:33.000 - 00:42:49.000

And so we sat and listened to-- then-President Roosevelt was still speaking, but I didn't hear his opening remarks as my family did. How did that change your family or change your friends' lives?

00:42:49.000 - 00:43:02.000

And how did America change when that happened? Oh, I tell you, what a change. It was a complete turnaround. Up until that time, whoever thought of military,

00:43:02.000 - 00:43:14.000

my husband, couple--it was just not more than three days afterwards-- went in and signed up for the military. But you were not married at that time. Oh, no, no. We were contemplating marriage,

00:43:14.000 - 00:43:28.000

but never talked too much about it. But I said, "Well, do you think we should get married?" "No," he said, "I do not want to get married and go in the service." He said, "If I am killed, I do not want you to be a widow at this time."

00:43:28.000 - 00:43:45.000

He said, "No, I think we should just continue going together, but I'm going in the service," and he did. He went in in 1942. Yeah, he waited until after the new year, and he went in 1942.

00:43:45.000 - 00:44:00.000

And he went to basic training, and he never came home from that. He went right over--they sent him right overseas. Usually you have a little R&R in between, but he had no R&R because of the desperate need we had of the military.

00:44:00.000 - 00:44:16.000

And so then he was sent over to New Guinea, and he really had it rough there. And he never really talked about his wartime. He just didn't feel--it was as if he didn't want to hurt me

00:44:16.000 - 00:44:31.000

or let me know the terrible conditions that they had in New Guinea at the time because it was really rough. Because later I've spoken to a man who went in with him, and he told me some of the terrible times.

00:44:31.000 - 00:44:51.000

And as for the other people in Faribault, how did their lives change? Well, before that, we had a group of men go to the Kodiak Island because they were only supposed to be up there for a six-month period, and they got up there in December.

00:44:51.000 - 00:45:07.000

And they were supposed to be back in a three-, four-month time period. They never came back. They would sit right into the service. And so I'll tell you a little story. On December 7th when that happened,

00:45:07.000 - 00:45:27.000

I just felt very, very sad about the fellows up there in Kodiak. So I put on a campaign, Candy for Kodiak, you know, K-A-N-D-U-I for Kodiak, K-O-D-I-A-K. And so I put these cans in all the stores around the downtown area.

00:45:27.000 - 00:45:49.000

At that time, all we had were stores in the downtown area and the little family business we had around town. But I put cans in all the areas, and I got enough candy to send, I don't know how many pounds. And at the time, Olympia Cafe made candies, beautiful candies.

00:45:49.000 - 00:46:05.000

And so we had Olympia candies, send them out to the boys at Kodiak. And that was our present for that December. Were those boys in Kodiak in the service? They were in the National Guard, but then they were immediately taken into the regular army

00:46:05.000 - 00:46:23.000

because of the need of the military. And then after Pearl Harbor, then you began to fly? Yes, in '42. Right. Then when did you first hear about a program to train women to fly military aircraft?

00:46:23.000 - 00:46:47.000

I didn't hear about that until the spring of '43. You see, we did have ski planes, but we didn't get too much flying in the winter. We flew on skis, which I thought was kind of fun. And I got as much flying as I could, but I was also strapped for money, so I had a lot of flights.

00:46:47.000 - 00:47:08.000

But I didn't have too much as first pilot time because I didn't have the money to pay for it. Were there any incidents or anything that happened while you were learning to fly that you want to tell us about? Anything unusual or any trips? Did you just fly around the airport or did you make little trips?

00:47:08.000 - 00:47:20.000

First, we did training. We just did--to get familiar with the airplane--we did our-- Chandelles? Our Chandelles. We did our 8s. What do you call them?

00:47:20.000 - 00:47:36.000

Lazy 8s? Yeah, Lazy 8s. We did Lazy 8s. We did all of them. Then we did spins. We did a lot of spins. And I had--oh, yes, my first cross country.

00:47:36.000 - 00:47:49.000

I was the first gal to fly on a fairway. And I didn't know fellows didn't want us to fly. It was those people at the airport, those men at the airport. They were so protective of me.

00:47:49.000 - 00:48:09.000

I went on my cross country, and I went from--down to Austin and then over to-- where did I go over? Isn't that funny? I can't remember what other city I went to. Anyway, it was at the time when Bruce Smith was playing ball.

00:48:09.000 - 00:48:22.000

Bruce Smith was our only Heisman Award winner in the state of Minnesota, and he's very respected. And so he graduated the year after I did, so I was in school at the same time that Bruce was,

00:48:22.000 - 00:48:30.000

and we really liked Bruce Smith. He was our hero. And he was playing football at the university. It was on a Saturday.

00:48:30.000 - 00:48:43.000

Of course, I had to fly on Saturdays because I worked the rest of the week. And I was on this cross country. And from Austin I went over somewhere east. I can't remember where.

00:48:43.000 - 00:48:54.000

Anyway, I went east, and then I was coming home. Well, I stopped to listen. We had no radio on the planes, of course, of course. No radio, no heat, no anything you want in a little area.

00:48:54.000 - 00:49:07.000

You couldn't even get the window open because it wasn't made that way. [laughs] So anyway, so I stopped at this place to listen to the rest of the ball game because I wanted to hear--

00:49:07.000 - 00:49:22.000

Bruce Smith was our big hero, and he did so well at that time. I wanted to listen to the rest of the game. And all of a sudden along came 3 of my men pilot friends. They were looking for me because I was a little late in coming back home.

00:49:22.000 - 00:49:36.000

And they followed me home. I really, I just really appreciated those men, the Vogel boys, Allen and-- Allen, whatever his name was.

00:49:36.000 - 00:49:52.000

Oh, the Vogel boys, Carl Hellerud, Ralph Temple, Stu Schaaf, they were all so gracious to our women, the women, me to begin with because I was the first calf to fly for them. They were so precious, really.

00:49:52.000 - 00:50:05.000

Then eventually did some other girls begin to learn to fly? Eventually, I thought everybody should fly. [laughs] So I told my sister Mary, I said, "Mary, you just don't know the thrill of flying."

00:50:05.000 - 00:50:14.000

So I talked her into flying. She liked to fly straight and level. She didn't do any acrobatics. That's what has happened in the service.

00:50:14.000 - 00:50:28.000

She went through primary, but she wouldn't pull out of spins. One of our friends had spun in on top of a Navy pilot by the name of Charles Papelka, and she was always afraid she was going to hurt somebody.

00:50:28.000 - 00:50:48.000

When she went into a spin, she was afraid she was going to go into that airplane like that person did to Charlie. And so her instructor was my instructor, and it was Marshall, Mr. Marshall. He told me, he says, "You know, Betty,

00:50:48.000 - 00:51:00.000

your sister was the nicest person that ever came to Sweetwater." Of course, he said I was the nicest one that ever graduated because I was so naive and so shy. But anyway, he said that my sister Mary was the nicest girl

00:51:00.000 - 00:51:15.000

that ever came to Sweetwater, and that made me feel good. Let me take you back to when you first heard about the training program in 1943. How did you hear about it? We had some notice.

00:51:15.000 - 00:51:28.000

We had a paper come in, and it was a notice that came to the airports. I don't know how they ever found the Faribault Airport, but we heard about it through the airport that they were looking for women. And then what did you do?

00:51:28.000 - 00:51:45.000

Ha, ha, ha, right away, ha, ha, ha. By that time, Catherine Murphy, who, you know, Catherine, she was from my hometown. Catherine Murphy and my darling sister Mary and I, right away, let them know that we were interested.

00:51:45.000 - 00:51:59.000

First we were sent for an oral interview. You know how careful they were at that time. They wanted to be sure they got the kind of women they were getting in, which was important because it was a pilot program,

00:51:59.000 - 00:52:13.000

and they wanted to be sure of the clientele. You know what I mean. And so we went for--I think it was Mrs. Shee that came. We met her up at Fort Snelling.

00:52:13.000 - 00:52:30.000

We had an oral interview with her to see what we were like, what our backgrounds were like, and if we would qualify as a candidate for the women pilots. We were pleased when they said we could go get our physicals because we were eligible.

00:52:30.000 - 00:52:46.000

Did your mother know that you and Mary were doing this? Oh, I forgot. We'll have to back up. I'm sorry. In my flying, I knew if I told my mother, she'd probably say no. Now I'm 22 years old when I started flying.

00:52:46.000 - 00:53:03.000

I said--so I took the flying lessons without Mom knowing it. She knew I was going out to the airport, but she just thought I was going out there for rides. And so one day after I had soloed, I said, "Mom, I want you to come with me." By this time, Mary had no Model A Ford.

00:53:03.000 - 00:53:16.000

We drove out to the airport, and I said, "Mama, I want you to watch what I'm going to do." I went over, signed out the airport, and took off. She saw me take off and fly a little bit around, and I landed, and she saw that I could handle the airplane.

00:53:16.000 - 00:53:28.000

Then she was proud. But up until that time, I didn't tell her. If she had said no, I couldn't fly, I wouldn't have flown. And I knew I had to fly airplanes.

00:53:28.000 - 00:53:40.000

So she knew when you and Mary went to the interview. Oh, yes, yes. Then she thought it was great, and then she was very proud of what we were doing because the war was on.

00:53:40.000 - 00:53:52.000

Everybody did what they could during the war, and we wanted to fly those airplanes. Do you recall your physical? Oh, yes, ha, ha, ha. We were up there with all these fellows. Oh, that was great.

00:53:52.000 - 00:54:04.000

The first thing we did was get in line to get shots. I remember one big guy ahead of me, he just conked out. They got a shot and--[makes explosion sound] And so we didn't know what to expect because we didn't get shots those years.

00:54:04.000 - 00:54:19.000

We never had shots. I never had a shot. So they gave us a shot, and it pricked a little bit, but I thought, "What's the matter with him?" So we got our shots, and then we went home, and we got ready to go to Sweetwater.

00:54:19.000 - 00:54:33.000

We were supposed to report at Sweetwater the first part of August of 1943. We were so excited. Well, I had a boyfriend there. In fact, what had happened when my husband--

00:54:33.000 - 00:54:49.000

I mean, my husband, who was my husband--he wasn't then-- I wrote to him, and I'm so excited about flying, and I'm doing this, and I'm doing that, and all of a sudden, I'm going in the Air Corps, and I'm going to fly military aircraft. He wrote back to me, and he said, "If you go on the service, you and I are through."

00:54:49.000 - 00:55:02.000

He said, "I've seen some of the women that are in the military, and I just don't believe in any woman being in the military." I wrote back, and I said, "You know, I'm me, and I'll be me when I'm in the service, and after I get out, I'm still me.

00:55:02.000 - 00:55:16.000

I won't be any different than I am at this time." He said, "Well," I said, "Well, I'll continue to write to you, but I will not be your girlfriend at this point." I thought, "Well, that's good. He's releasing me also."

00:55:16.000 - 00:55:36.000

So then I started going with this fellow in town. He was a farmer, and he was exempt from the draft because being a farmer, he had lost his father, and he was the only man in the family. So his mother had put in for a deferment, and he got it.

00:55:36.000 - 00:55:51.000

I don't know whether he was happy or not about it, but anyway, he did have-- He was a flying farmer, so he had his own airplane. So he thought, "Well, it was terrible. I was going off to war. He wanted me to stay home and get married."

00:55:51.000 - 00:56:07.000

Before I was going, "I'll never forget that." My sister was home. God bless her. She had sat home. You know how we had to have our names on every piece of material? Of course, everything we brought to the Sweetwater, we had to have our name on.

00:56:07.000 - 00:56:19.000

Well, I went down and had name tags made. Well, I'm having too much fun. I'm going to parties, working at the courthouse until I was going to leave, and I'm just having a wonderful time.

00:56:19.000 - 00:56:35.000

So my sister Julianne sat home, sewed all those tags on all my clothes, which wasn't too many. But anyway, she was putting them on. That night I came home, and I was out with ammunition.

00:56:35.000 - 00:56:49.000

She says, "You've got to stay home. You can't go off to the military and leave me here. I want you to stay home and get married." Oh, well, geez, I said, "What an opportunity to fly these military aircraft."

00:56:49.000 - 00:57:02.000

"Oh," she said, "I think you ought to stay home and get married." So I went in. My sisters--we had five girls in one room, and so I'd either be sleeping with Julie or sometimes with Catherine,

00:57:02.000 - 00:57:14.000

but Julianne was usually the one that I slept with. And so I came in. My feet were so cold. I put them next to her. She said, "Don't you put your feet next to me or you're not going to go to Sweetwater, Texas."

00:57:14.000 - 00:57:27.000

I said, "Oh, I'm going." "Oh," she said, "I was so afraid you weren't going because Ambrose wanted you to stay home." I said, "No." Then I was tempted. I said, "I do like them,

00:57:27.000 - 00:57:43.000

but I don't think I love them enough to leave my airplanes." So she said--of course she does have an airplane and I could fly. And so I was all packed. In fact, she packed me, and I was all ready to go the next morning.

00:57:43.000 - 00:58:00.000

We went down to the train, and three of our fellas-- one was Ambrose and Stu and Al Vogel--Haig Vogel was the other one-- and they had their planes at the airport. As soon as we took off on the train, they came right down alongside the train.

00:58:00.000 - 00:58:22.000

They escorted us all the way to Iowa, and we could just see them sitting in the plane, they could see us sitting in the train, and the rest of the people in the train got such a kick out of it. But they escorted us to Iowa, and then they had a train. While you and Mary were both learning to fly, did you ever fly together?

00:58:22.000 - 00:58:41.000

No, we never did. We never did because she was only in primary. No, I mean before when you were learning to fly. Oh, yes, yes, we flew together. She was very precise. She was very--just the way to do things, she could do it that way.

00:58:41.000 - 00:59:01.000

In ground school, she was so smart. She caught on to everything really, really good. And in flying, she did very well in straight and level, but she would not do any acrobatics. Do you recall--how long did it take you to get to Sweetwater on the train? Did you know where Sweetwater was?

00:59:01.000 - 00:59:12.000

I had no idea in the world. I had only been to the cities once. Only been outside. And you're going to Texas. We're going to Sweetwater, Texas.

00:59:12.000 - 00:59:29.000

I'll never forget when we got down there. Of course, you know, you just sit on the train, and we had a lot of military on the train also. And we had no air conditioning, of course. You wanted any air, you stuck your head out the window and got full of soot.

00:59:29.000 - 00:59:46.000

Anyway, we thought it was a wonderful trip. We really enjoyed it. We enjoyed each other. When we got to Texas--you know, I don't even know how long it took us to get there. Oh, I know. Yeah, we went right around in the morning sometime,

00:59:46.000 - 01:00:04.000

and it took us overnight because I know that we didn't get into Sweetwater, Texas until the morning. So it took us all night. I could sleep anywhere. They said, "Just put me in a corner."

01:00:04.000 - 01:00:17.000

Pasted me against the wall, and I would stay. I'm really, really--even to this day, I'm very blessed. If I'm tired, I can lay down. Fifteen minutes later, I'm up and at 'em again. I'm very blessed to have that ability.

01:00:17.000 - 01:00:32.000

Take us through when you arrived at Sweetwater. Tell us what happened. Oh, when we arrived at Sweetwater, we couldn't get over--hot! It was hot, and they had all the doors. We went by this one place.

01:00:32.000 - 01:00:49.000

It seemed to be close to the depot because they had all the doors open, and they had these pubs or whatever they called them--saloons, I guess. All this country music was playing out of these saloons. That was my first impression of Sweetwater, Texas.

01:00:49.000 - 01:01:03.000

Then the cattle truck met us. What is a cattle truck? Well, a cattle truck is really a cattle truck. They cleaned it out pretty good, and they put two long boards on either side.

01:01:03.000 - 01:01:19.000

They herded us in there, and they locked the door when we got in. They did unlock it when we got out to the field. We didn't know why they locked the door because nobody wanted to leave the cattle truck because we were going to go fly airplanes.

01:01:19.000 - 01:01:37.000

Anyway, they brought us out to Sweetwater, Texas in the cattle truck. We were all dressed in our skirts. Nobody wore socks. Everybody wore skirts to Sweetwater, Texas. When you got out to Avenger Field, take us through what happened next.

01:01:37.000 - 01:01:59.000

Well, I don't remember which of the establishment officers met us. We were brought to our barracks right away. Describe the barracks. Well, the barracks, being our name was Wall, we were in the last barracks.

01:01:59.000 - 01:02:25.000

The barracks, we had six gals in one room, and then we had the very important latrine and all the necessary equipment in the middle, and then we had another barracks with six women. For me, it was kind of frightening. Of course, I grew up with my five siblings, but it was quite an experience because, as I say, both Mary and I were so shy.

01:02:25.000 - 01:02:46.000

To get into a shower with all these women, it was tough. In fact, I'd even try to curl into that closet, maybe five or-- it wasn't more than half a foot or three-fourths of a foot wide, and maybe about the same distance, the width of it.

01:02:46.000 - 01:02:53.000

I'd try to get in that closet and change my clothes. [Laughs] In that little skinny locker? That skinny, skinny little closet.

01:02:53.000 - 01:03:13.000

I'd try to get in there and change my clothes because I was embarrassed because even being raised with our sisters, we were always very private. When you went to Sweetwater, what were your expectations? What did you think that program was for? What would you be doing?

01:03:13.000 - 01:03:33.000

I knew it was for the war effort. I knew we were being trained so that the men could go to war, and that to me was a great-- to know that I was doing what I loved best in the whole world and help our war effort. I was really--never been more happy in my whole life than when I walked into Sweetwater, Texas.

01:03:33.000 - 01:03:52.000

I was really, really grateful for the opportunity because I wanted to fly those military aircraft. Then I saw our little old PT-19. Oh, boy, I thought that was the greatest plane they ever made. [Laughs] Take us through a one-day schedule. What was it like?

01:03:52.000 - 01:04:13.000

Well, it was really great. We'd have to get up in the morning early, 6 o'clock, I believe, go out and do our PT with Lieutenant LaRue. It was really tough. In that hot sun, to go out there in our little--

01:04:13.000 - 01:04:33.000

First, we had to wear shorts because we didn't have any uniform shorts. We had to wear our own shorts out to do our PT in the morning. We did our PT, then we went back in formation and went to the mess hall and had our breakfast. I always felt they fed us well. I never had any complaints.

01:04:33.000 - 01:04:57.000

The Sweetwater people were so--they were so dear. I really thought they had done a great job in getting the personnel they had to be our staff there at the field. After our meal, then we'd go back to our barracks and we'd have maybe five minutes. Five minutes, our little gal would call, and then we'd get back in formation.

01:04:57.000 - 01:05:14.000

We'd first go to ground school for half a day. After our ground school, we'd go back in formation, go back to our barracks. In five minutes, we had to be ready to go to eat. We'd go to our mess hall and get our good meal.

01:05:14.000 - 01:05:39.000

Five minutes, we'd go back to our barracks, and then we'd have to go to flight line. It was rigid, but it was wonderful. It was wonderful. I really and truthfully loved my time in the women's-- Tell me about your bay makes.

01:05:39.000 - 01:06:02.000

Oh, I had wonderful bay makes. There was a Woods--I forget her name--my sister Mary and I, and then there was-- Ines? Maybe it was Ines Woods. And then we had Wood, Carol Wood was in our barracks, and we had Stinky Willis.

01:06:02.000 - 01:06:22.000

Her name was Mary Kay, and she wanted to be called Stinky. I never understood that. Then we had Lois Story. Those were the six that were in our barracks, and it was wonderful. Lois Story was washed out quite soon, and Stinky Willis was.

01:06:22.000 - 01:06:40.000

Oh, Stevie Craft, she wasn't in my barracks, but she was something else. She was called Stevie Craft. I don't know why she was Stevie. She was of the Craft family, very wealthy gal. But she wasn't coordinated. I never saw any--in fact, I tried to do the side straddle hop.

01:06:40.000 - 01:06:58.000

I tried to do it the way she did. I couldn't do it. She'd do this, this. I mean, it was opposite to what we were supposed to do. I never could do that opposite. But she could never coordinate herself. She was just no coordinator. She was a wonderful gal, and I really liked her, but she too was washed out in primary.

01:06:58.000 - 01:07:17.000

How did that make you feel when those girls washed out in your bay? Oh, it broke my heart, especially my sister Mary. Now, my sister Mary was so sharp in her ground school, and she really helped me in my ground school. It was wonderful having her with me because if I didn't understand something,

01:07:17.000 - 01:07:36.000

she could explain it all to me in a manner that I could understand. Can you tell me how she seemed to feel about it? Was she bitter? Not bitter. She was sad. My sister was never bitter about anything. She had such a great disposition.

01:07:36.000 - 01:08:01.000

She was a lady at all times, at all times, and when she was going to be washed out, it broke her heart. But she knew she could not do acrobatics, and she knew she'd have to do them in the next thing. About how many hours did she have when she washed out? Well, she was there for August, September, and part of September.

01:08:01.000 - 01:08:23.000

She was only there about maybe five weeks. It's hard for me to really say. I don't suppose she had any more than maybe 35 hours, maybe 40. Did you have the same instructor? Yes, we did.

01:08:23.000 - 01:08:43.000

Did he ever comment to you about her? Well, I'll tell you one thing he told me. We were at the auxiliary field, and he said, when he came down from this one flight, he says, "By damn," he said, "she made a liar out of me." He said, "Because in a fly, she was so cute."

01:08:43.000 - 01:09:08.000

He'd swear, and he'd say, "Come on, Wall," and he'd swear and say, "You can do better than that, Wall." Finally, one time he said to her, he says, "You know, Miss Wall, tell me something." He said, "What can I do to help you? You're not relaxed. How can I do to help you?" "Well, Mr. Marshall, if you wouldn't yell at me and wouldn't swear at me, I think I could do better."

01:09:08.000 - 01:09:32.000

So he'd say, "Gee whiz, this Wall. Golly, that was so cute." He did everything he could to help my sister Mary because he wanted her. He really wanted her to pass because he really liked Mary. He said to me this one day, he said, "You know," I took her up today, and I said,

01:09:32.000 - 01:09:52.000

"You know, Miss Wall, we're going to spin down until you pull out." He said, "By damn if she didn't make a liar on me, she wouldn't pull out." He said, "I cannot pass her on to the next phase because if I do, she'll be sent home in a box, and I do not want that to happen to Mary."

01:09:52.000 - 01:10:06.000

Describe ground school. Ground school was really tough. I'll tell you what happened to me. They said you needed 35 hours of flying time or a private license. Well, I never waved around to get a private license.

01:10:06.000 - 01:10:27.000

I got my 35 hours of flying time, and I was headed right down to Texas. So I didn't know too much about ground school. I'd sat in a few sessions with the boys, and then I also belonged to Civil Air Patrol, so I was pretty good at that da-da-da-da-da-da-dash bit.

01:10:27.000 - 01:10:45.000

That's Morse code. I really knew that pretty good, but I did not know about the other subjects. Meteorology, study of the weather, holy smokes. And then engines, I knew nothing about the engines. I never was near an engine. And then physics, I thought that was something you took for a stomachache.

01:10:45.000 - 01:10:58.000

I didn't know it was something you had to learn. So for me, ground school was really tough. And so I really appreciated my sister Mary in those few months that she was with me. She really helped me.

01:10:58.000 - 01:11:12.000

I didn't do too good in ground school, but I passed because I knew I had to pass if I wanted to fly airplanes. I had no problem flying. They'd tell me to land right there, I'd land right in that spot. They'd tell me to force land, I could force land anywhere.

01:11:12.000 - 01:11:25.000

I really was a good--if you don't think I was a good pilot, all you had to do was ask me. Anyway, I really felt comfortable in the airplane. I was never afraid in an airplane. I never got sick in an airplane, even flying the F-16.

01:11:25.000 - 01:11:39.000

I never got sick in anything. What airplane--what did you fly in primary? In primary, I flew the PT-19 in primary. Recall for me when you soloed.

01:11:39.000 - 01:11:55.000

That's something I'd have to look that up in my book. Just how you felt. How I felt? Oh, boy, if I thought I felt good when I soloed with that PT, that little Piper Cub, glory be to God. When I was up there in that P-19, there was nothing in the whole world that I couldn't do.

01:11:55.000 - 01:12:05.000

I was in control of this airplane. I was in control of the world. I mean, I really felt like a big shot. I really did.

01:12:05.000 - 01:12:27.000

For me, now I lived in my wonderful family for all those years, and I loved them dearly. But I went along with the flow with them. We said the rosary, we went to Mass, we did things together, and we dug potatoes together, and we collected the beetles off the potato--the potato bugs off the leaves.

01:12:27.000 - 01:12:55.000

We did all these things together, and I never resented a day of my being there with my family. But when I was flying, I was in control, and I knew it. It's hard to explain, but it was one of the most exhilarating feelings. I thought I felt good when I flew that 65 horsepower, but when I got in that PT-19 and soloed that,

01:12:55.000 - 01:13:06.000

that was a marvelous experience. I really--oh, I loved my flight instructor. I loved everybody. I was just a very, very happy person.

01:13:06.000 - 01:13:27.000

What were the auxiliary fields used for? Well, you see, our airfield, Avenger Field, was, is, and will only be the only all-girl airfield in the whole world. They had women flying over in Europe, but they were flying off the same field the men were. But in our Avenger Field, we only had women there.

01:13:27.000 - 01:13:49.000

And because they were not sure women could do what we were doing, so they had--they kept all the training at the one field. So we had to have auxiliary fields because if you're doing three phases of flying at one time with three different type aircraft with different horsepower, you had to have different fields to fly from. So we did a lot of our primary training on an auxiliary field,

01:13:49.000 - 01:14:12.000

and this was a field we used to take off land and do all our acrobatics in that area. We had--I remember two auxiliary fields anyway, but we did most of our training from the auxiliary field in our primary training off in the hot desert area. You know, I didn't care.

01:14:12.000 - 01:14:24.000

What would you do with time off? Did you have weekends off, or what was your schedule like? Yes, we had weekends off. All I remember is going to church.

01:14:24.000 - 01:14:38.000

I'll tell you what I did my weekends. Ha, ha, ha, well, that was the biggest. No, on my weekends at Sweetwater, I really, really studied a lot because, as I said, ground school was very difficult for me.

01:14:38.000 - 01:14:56.000

You know, in our high school, you had to take the courses women take. You didn't have an opportunity to get courses that would help you in doing something like flying. So it was very difficult for me. But I knew I had to do well if I were going to continue flying.

01:14:56.000 - 01:15:14.000

What was the biggest adjustment that you had to make when you were at Sweetwater? The biggest adjustment was trying to get in the shower by myself. Ha, ha, ha, oh dear. To me, to begin with, I was so shy and so naive and so--it was tough.

01:15:14.000 - 01:15:22.000

It was tough, but that was the hardest thing for me. I loved them all. I really cared for the girls I was with. You become so close.

01:15:22.000 - 01:15:38.000

They're your family. When my Mary left, the girls in my barracks were my family because my Mary had left me. When you finished primary training, then did you have some time off there? Did you come home?

01:15:38.000 - 01:15:50.000

You know, I know. I don't remember coming home between primary and basic. I don't remember we had time off. I probably didn't have the money to come home.

01:15:50.000 - 01:15:56.000

I don't remember. Isn't that funny? I don't even remember how much time we had off. I'm losing my mind.

01:15:56.000 - 01:16:06.000

Not much. Not much. I don't remember coming home. When you then advanced, what was your next phase of training and describe that training.

01:16:06.000 - 01:16:23.000

Then we went into BT-13. You know, when I say "Voltee Vibrator," I say it to the kids in school, and they giggle their head off. But to me, that to me was what our BT-13 was, was a Voltee Vibrator. Anyway, oh, I thought this was great.

01:16:23.000 - 01:16:34.000

We have really arrived. We have a canopy over our heads, and we have arrived. I really thought that was great. What did you study in basic training?

01:16:34.000 - 01:16:53.000

What was that for? The basic training, I felt, was more for if you're going to be a ferry pilot because we did a lot of cross-country in that aircraft in the basic training. We had learned all the maneuvers in the primary trainer,

01:16:53.000 - 01:17:02.000

so we did a lot of cross-country in our basic training. How about instrument training? Did you get instrument training? Not at that time.

01:17:02.000 - 01:17:19.000

When we went into the AT-6, that's where we had our instrument training. We did a lot of cross-country. I don't even remember doing too many acrobatics. We didn't do any slow rowing, but we did a lot of maybe crazy eights or something.

01:17:19.000 - 01:17:36.000

But I don't remember doing any very strenuous maneuver in our BT-13. That's not my recollection. Do you recall any incidents that happened on cross-country or describe a cross-country? What would you do on a cross-country?

01:17:36.000 - 01:17:59.000

Well, on a cross-country, oh, I'll never forget my trip to El Paso, Texas. We were going to El Paso, Texas for a cross-country, and we got over there, and the wind was so strong at El Paso, Texas, and I was one of the--maybe the first to take off. I took off, and they closed the field after that, and the girls got to stay another day,

01:17:59.000 - 01:18:15.000

and I didn't get to stay, and I was very disappointed. But the wind was very, very strong, and it was crosswind, and after I took off, they decided that was enough of that, and the rest of the girls could stay for the night.

01:18:15.000 - 01:18:27.000

I was disappointed I couldn't get out. That was one of my things. I went to Ponca City, Oklahoma, one time on a cross-country. I thought that was fun because they had some cadets there from Canada,

01:18:27.000 - 01:18:44.000

and I thought that was fun to see the cadets because, as you know, you don't see too many men around Avenger Field. Jacqueline Cochran kept that pretty much like Jacqueline's convent. [Laughs] By the time you got into basic training, winter had arrived.

01:18:44.000 - 01:18:58.000

Tell me what it was like flying during the winter at Avenger Field. It was very cold. We took our--we had our winter uniform, which, of course, was too big for us. I had to put suspenders on to hold the pants up,

01:18:58.000 - 01:19:09.000

a pair of socks to hold the shoes on. But as we know--oh, we loved to fly. I didn't care hot or cold or whatever it was. It was cold, but I didn't mind.

01:19:09.000 - 01:19:21.000

I didn't mind. I loved to fly. Ordinarily, what did you wear to fly in? I usually wore the zoot suit to do flying in, but in the winter when it got cold,

01:19:21.000 - 01:19:34.000

even in Sweetwater, Texas, it got cold, so we had our winter flight suits. What is a zoot suit? A zoot suit is an oversized flight suit.

01:19:34.000 - 01:19:48.000

What do you call those suits? Well, anyway, it's an oversized flight suit. If you'd get to the laundry in time, maybe you could get one that kind of fits you, but if you don't, why, you have to pull them in, tuck them in, yank them up.

01:19:48.000 - 01:20:01.000

They were pretty big. Did you have dress uniforms? Well, at the time we were in, we had-- Jackie and Cochran felt that they should have some kind of a uniform

01:20:01.000 - 01:20:17.000

because when our gals were flying cross-country in ferry jobs, a lot of the--I mean, a lot-- many of the hotels would not let the girls in their hotels with slacks on. They wouldn't let them in the nice restaurants with slacks on

01:20:17.000 - 01:20:33.000

because at that time women were supposed to wear skirts and dresses. There were times when our women--it didn't happen to me, but some of our women were flying cross-country in a one-place fighter aircraft and there was no room for baggage,

01:20:33.000 - 01:20:47.000

and they had no way to take skirts or heels with them. They weren't like Florine, tuck them in the baggage-- I mean, no baggage compartment in the--I don't know. She tucked them in somewhere.

01:20:47.000 - 01:21:00.000

And they had to take their parachutes with them, and if there were not a plane to take our girls back to the field where they were needed for ferrying another aircraft, sometimes the MPs would pick them up.

01:21:00.000 - 01:21:12.000

It did not happen to me, but it happened to some of the gals. They would pick up the gals because they said they were stealing the government property, which were the parachutes. And so they'd take them in the MP, and they'd have to call up the field,

01:21:12.000 - 01:21:25.000

and the field said, "Send those girls back right away. We need them to take another airplane out." So Jacqueline Cochran said, "Our women need some kind of a uniform to show that we are a part of the Air Force," which we were supposed to be.

01:21:25.000 - 01:21:43.000

And so then we got the general pants, the khaki slacks and the overseas cap, and our white blouses--that's what we wore as a uniform. All right. When you moved from primary to basic training,

01:21:43.000 - 01:21:52.000

did you keep the same instructor? No, we had different instructors. And were these-- I'm going to change the tap.

01:21:52.000 - 01:22:04.000

I'm trying to ask you-- How can it be the same, Ermini? And you know that I know, but think, think, think. Tell me about check rides, for example.

01:22:04.000 - 01:22:19.000

Who would give you a check ride, and what were those check rides for? Well, if in our phase of flying, especially in our basic training-- I remember the BTs--if you did not do a good job-- I suppose it happened in the primary also.

01:22:19.000 - 01:22:34.000

I just never got a pink slip in the primary. I think if you got two pink slips, then you had-- We had civilian instructors for all of our flying. But if you got two or three pink slips, then you had--

01:22:34.000 - 01:22:51.000

And a pink slip meant that you were not doing what was expected of you at that time, and you were not kind of up to par, up to what they felt that we should be doing at that time. Of course, they didn't have too many people to go on what we should be doing, but they knew that we should be reaching a certain point.

01:22:51.000 - 01:23:04.000

And if we were not doing what they thought we should have accomplished by this time, then we had got a pink slip. I never did get a pink slip, and I'm not saying this in any-- I was just lucky.

01:23:04.000 - 01:23:21.000

I did everything those instructors told me, as long as it's something about flying. [laughs] But anyway, if you got those two or three pink slips, then you had to fly with a lieutenant, with an Army personnel,

01:23:21.000 - 01:23:36.000

and that really scared you because we always felt-- I don't know if everyone felt this way, but we felt those Army captains or lieutenants, whoever they were, they were going to give us a check ride.

01:23:36.000 - 01:23:58.000

They weren't too happy about our flying, the airplanes they were flying. And I understand this situation because it was the first time women had flown the military aircraft. And up until this time, this was a complete men's area of expertise. They were the men flying those beautiful airplanes.

01:23:58.000 - 01:24:12.000

And I can really understand their thinking, that maybe they felt we were kind of overstepping their bounds. I really can understand that because it was just the era and the time. And so if we did not fly up to par,

01:24:12.000 - 01:24:23.000

they were not going to let us continue flying military aircraft. And I do believe some of the--in my opinion, some of the girls just might have had an off day or maybe they were scared to death of the officer

01:24:23.000 - 01:24:34.000

and didn't do as well as they could have. That's my opinion. But, oh boy, I'll tell you. So I never had a check ride with an instructor

01:24:34.000 - 01:24:48.000

because I would fly the straight and level and everything. They told me do so. [laughs] So I was fortunate. But the check rides were the girls that were doing what the instructor thought they should do

01:24:48.000 - 01:25:06.000

and also for safety reasons, to know that this woman could really handle an airplane because from there we were going to go into some pretty intensive and high secretive maneuvers and missions. And so they wanted to be sure that these women could handle it.

01:25:06.000 - 01:25:26.000

So I understand the reasoning for their check ride, not just to wash us out but to be sure that we could handle whatever mission we were given after we received our wings. When you were training at Avenger, did Jacqueline Cochran ever visit the field?

01:25:26.000 - 01:25:42.000

Oh, yes. I knew her just from afar. I really didn't really know her until after I graduated. But she was my heroine. And in my estimation, Jacqueline Cochran has done more for women in aviation

01:25:42.000 - 01:26:04.000

than any other person, man, woman, or child alive because she saw 1,074 of us received our Silver Wings, and I'm proud of that. While you were at Avenger, classes would graduate. What would you do as a trainee when those classes would have a graduation?

01:26:04.000 - 01:26:16.000

I was so proud of them. We would get on our uniforms and we would march for them and very proud to be involved and know that these women had accomplished what I wanted to accomplish.

01:26:16.000 - 01:26:32.000

And I'm very proud to march for them. We marched in front of the stage. The best uniform we had at the time, whichever it was. And then as you moved along through training, what stage was next?

01:26:32.000 - 01:26:50.000

After the PT and the basic training, oh, we went into AT-6. AT-6, well, I tell this little story. I had a love affair with this AT-6. What happened between basic and advanced flying, this flying farmer came down.

01:26:50.000 - 01:27:08.000

He had decided that I had flown enough military aircraft that I could handle them and I did a good job, but now I should come home and marry him. Well, after all, he did have an airplane, I thought. So first I said, "Oh, no, no way."

01:27:08.000 - 01:27:26.000

So he flew to Sweetwater? Yes, he did. He flew in his little plane to Sweetwater, yes. And he felt that I should go home with him. Well, after two days of talking, well, maybe I could go home and see him.

01:27:26.000 - 01:27:42.000

We did have some time off between--I remember that from basic and advanced flying. I don't remember the days, but that's when he came to see me. In fact, we went over to--let's see, not Abilene, which was the next-- Big Springs.

01:27:42.000 - 01:28:03.000

Big Springs. We went over to Big Springs. And we were going to really have a great time. Well, I shouldn't tell this, but it's the truth. There was no place in the whole town for us to get two rooms in Big Springs, Texas.

01:28:03.000 - 01:28:17.000

And we went to this one place, and we were getting later and later, and they had one room. I said, "Well, I'm sorry. You can stay. I can't stay." He said, "Don't be foolish."

01:28:17.000 - 01:28:32.000

We went to the room, and there was a big chair you could sit in and the bed. I said, "Well, if you take the bed, I take the chair." And he says, "That would be fine." And we did that. I've never been more uncomfortable in my whole life.

01:28:32.000 - 01:28:54.000

I sat--he wouldn't get up. He laid down in the bed, he fell asleep, and I never got the bed. I sat in that chair all night long, worrying my head off. I thought, "Well, this is outrageous. I should not be here. I should not be doing this." Even though--I never told this story before, but I'll tell it to you now.

01:28:54.000 - 01:29:14.000

I left the light on all night long, and they had one of those hanging from the ceiling with the bright light. That light was on all night long, and I sat in the chair all night long. He said, "You're being foolish. There's room over here." I said, "Not for me. There isn't." And so I sat in it. He said, "If you feel that way, I get the bed." So he got the bed.

01:29:14.000 - 01:29:38.000

Next morning we got up and took the bus back to Revenger Field. And he said--he talked and talked and talked, and I thought, "Well--" He was nice that evening to me, and I thought, "Well, maybe we'd get along all right. Maybe I will marry him." And so when he left, he said, "Well, I'm stopping to see my cousin in Kansas City, and I'll spend the night there,

01:29:38.000 - 01:29:58.000

but I won't go back on the train until the next day. Or if you come, I'll wait in Kansas City for you." He wanted me to go right away, and I said, "Oh, no. I have all my planes I've got to say goodbye to and all my people I've got to say goodbye to and turning all my equipment. I can't possibly go." And he said, "All right, then I'll wait for two days, and then you can come."

01:29:58.000 - 01:30:22.000

And I said, "Okay." And he gave me his cousin's number to tell me where to meet him, where I should meet him. And so I went in to Miss Deaton. I said, "Miss Deaton, I'm going to resign." Well, she got out my papers, and she said, "Well, you are a plane sitting in your ground school." She looked, "But you're doing so well in flying." I said, "Oh, yeah, I have no problem flying."

01:30:22.000 - 01:30:41.000

She said, "Well, if you want to resign, of course, that's up to you. But before you resign, I want you to have a ride in that AT-6." I took a ride in that AT-6. I got out of that plane. I went to that phone. I called that boy up and said, "I'm not coming home."

01:30:41.000 - 01:31:02.000

He said, "If you don't come home, I'm going to go home and marry someone else." I said, "You go right ahead," and we both lived happily ever after, and I never saw him again. He died just a short time ago, God bless him. And that was that. So I went back, and I finished my training.

01:31:02.000 - 01:31:24.000

I got my silver wings, and I passed the ground school, and there wasn't a happier pilot aboard than me. The only thing I did feel badly about, the war was on. It was February. We were supposed to graduate in January, but we got a real bad ice storm. They knew nothing about de-icers and all that sort of thing.

01:31:24.000 - 01:31:50.000

We had to wait until the ice chipped off the plane. They thought it was cold, and they're coming from Minnesota. Let me tell you, it wasn't. In fact, in my slideshow, I show a snow lady that we created, my two last classmates and me. We had a plaster against the barracks because there wasn't room for her, but we made her like a woman.

01:31:50.000 - 01:32:05.000

We had the boobs there. Anyway, when I show it to the kids, I'll say, "Can you tell that's a lady snowman, a little small lady?" Yeah, they could tell it was a snow lady. So we were off for a little while, which delayed our graduation.

01:32:05.000 - 01:32:28.000

We were supposed to graduate in January, so we didn't graduate until February. How long was your entire training course? It was supposed to be six months, so it would be seven months. How was the training for the women different from the training for the cadets?

01:32:28.000 - 01:32:50.000

Well, being that I am not sure if their training was six months or not, but I felt that our training was more intense, and they wanted to get as many women out there as they could to fly the airplanes because they needed us at that time for the ferrying and the training.

01:32:50.000 - 01:33:04.000

I'll tell you one thing about Sweetwater. They took us to a dance every month. We got one dance. My friend, Lois Story, and I, we'd always take one suitcase

01:33:04.000 - 01:33:26.000

because you had to wear your zoot suit. That was our official outfit at the time. We had to wear our flight suit in our official vehicle, which was the cow truck. But you could take your civvies with you because you were not supposed to go to dance

01:33:26.000 - 01:33:37.000

unless you looked like a lady. So we'd take our dresses with us in this suitcase. She would take the suitcase one time and I'd take the other. Well, I thought it was her turn and she thought it was our turn,

01:33:37.000 - 01:33:50.000

and we left that suitcase sitting back in our barracks. We got to--it was at Big Springs. We got to Big Springs and no suitcase. So we thought, well, we can't go into the dance

01:33:50.000 - 01:34:07.000

because you're not supposed to go into the dance with slacks on. So we're standing outside thinking about what we could do for two or three hours while the girls were there having a ball. Well, we had three good-looking cadets come along and they, "Look, women pilots!"

01:34:07.000 - 01:34:21.000

Because we didn't have wings on, but we had all the paraphernalia on that you have on your flight suit, or zoot suit. So they brought us into the dance. I tell you, I'd swear I'd never wear another dress.

01:34:21.000 - 01:34:37.000

I had such a good time that night, and we really had all kinds of dances and just had a wonderful time. I rolled up those zoot suits and away we went. [laughs] Did some boogie-woogie, and oh, what a wonderful time we had.

01:34:37.000 - 01:34:51.000

Then I became interested in this young man. His name was Hal Kearney, and he was there at Big Springs. We started writing back and forth and seeing one another, very seldom, but we saw one another.

01:34:51.000 - 01:35:04.000

We mostly wrote back and forth to each other. Describe your graduation. Oh, what an excitement. As I said, it was--war was on, and none of my family were going to be there,

01:35:04.000 - 01:35:22.000

but my friend Madeline Taylor, who was from Iowa at the time, she and I pinned each other's wings on because we had no family there. There weren't too many there with family, but some of them did come. But I turned around, looked at those wings before I put them on her,

01:35:22.000 - 01:35:36.000

and it says "Joston, Otahna, Minnesota," and that's right down the road from my home. All of a sudden I felt I had a home connection. So I pinned on Madeline, and she pinned on me, and we had a wonderful time.

01:35:36.000 - 01:35:51.000

Were there some celebrities that came for the graduation, generals? Oh, yes, general. What was his name? Oh, I wish I had the name. His daughter was graduating, but she was in Flight 1, and I really didn't know her.

01:35:51.000 - 01:36:04.000

My name escapes me at the time, but that general came and pinned on her her graduation pin, but he did hand out the wings to the rest of us. If you wait a minute, I can get it on my--

01:36:04.000 - 01:36:17.000

No, I know her, and I kind of remember her name. Oh, I can see her. Dusick. Was it Dusick? No. Anyway, I can see her.

01:36:17.000 - 01:36:32.000

A lovely, blonde, tall, good-looking woman. She was a beautiful lady. When you graduated, how many of your class, a kind of rough number, had washed out? Half or fourth?

01:36:32.000 - 01:36:51.000

Well, we had 99 come in, and we had 49 of our class left. I would say about half of us washed out, without really counting. When you graduated, what did you wear? Oh, yes, I'm so glad you asked.

01:36:51.000 - 01:37:05.000

Jacqueline Cochran had been trying to get some uniform for our gals because she felt that at this time we deserved to be noted as women pilots of the Women Air Force. When we went into the service, we took the oath of the military

01:37:05.000 - 01:37:22.000

because we were to be a part of the military, but they never got around to that. The sad thing about that is none of us had insurance, and 38 of our women were killed in the service of our country and never recognized as such.

01:37:22.000 - 01:37:41.000

Those 38 women, their bodies were sent home in pine boxes, and they had to be taken home by the family if they could afford it. I know at one instance the girls got together--not my group, but one of the girls got together and sent the body home.

01:37:41.000 - 01:37:54.000

There was no flag and star in the window to show that someone in their family had died in the service of our country. There was no flag on the coffin. The private sector thought our job was too dangerous.

01:37:54.000 - 01:38:07.000

I know I was getting shot at was too dangerous, but they thought it was too dangerous to insure us. The government went to insure us because we were not as yet a part of the military. Even though we flew their military aircraft, we were under orders at all times,

01:38:07.000 - 01:38:23.000

and we did everything we were told as if we were military personnel. That was the sad part about our organization. My heart aches for those 38 families that had no recognition. I'm just glad I lived long enough.

01:38:23.000 - 01:38:40.000

I'm only 81 years young, and up until 10 years ago, I didn't know anyone was interested in what we did so long ago. But to be recognized now as veterans, I'm very, very proud. But my heart really aches for those women and the families

01:38:40.000 - 01:38:53.000

who did not get recognized. Tell me about your uniform. Jacqueline Cochran said it's about time our women got something that were recognizable as a part of the Air Force.

01:38:53.000 - 01:39:08.000

I know the fellows thought they should have different uniforms like the khaki or the gray or the whatever, but Jacqueline Cochran saw this uniform, and she said this would be the uniform for our women pilots.

01:39:08.000 - 01:39:25.000

We're the first group of any military personnel that ever received the Santiago Blue uniform, and I'm proud to be one of the first to wear our uniform because our class was the first class to receive our Santiago Blue uniform.

01:39:25.000 - 01:39:43.000

This is my original Tam O'Shannar. I'm sorry to say, I wore the other--my real one, I wore out giving programs. Up until 10 years ago, as I say, no one knew I was-- that there were women pilots.

01:39:43.000 - 01:39:53.000

And when they found out why we were alive and well, I mean, they couldn't get over it. We had our own hair. I mean, it was wonderful, you know, it's mine.

01:39:53.000 - 01:40:07.000

And so all of a sudden we were wined and dined and invited to all the air shows. I'm telling you, my life has been a sentimental journey ever since, and I'm just having a ball.

01:40:07.000 - 01:40:27.000

Okay, at graduation, when did you get your assignment, your orders? Well, we got our orders before we left. We were fortunate that they asked us what we'd like to do. "Well, I like to fly fast," so I asked for fighters.

01:40:27.000 - 01:40:41.000

And so they sent me to Las Vegas Army Airfield. It did hurt that my friend, Lieutenant--what was his name? I said, "Oh, my good friend." [laughs] Hal Carney was also stationed at Las Vegas.

01:40:41.000 - 01:40:51.000

That didn't hurt. Was he the one from Big Springs? Yeah, we had kept contact, and I heard he was at Las Vegas. So I really didn't know for sure, but I had asked for a pursuit aircraft,

01:40:51.000 - 01:40:59.000

and so they sent me to Las Vegas Army Airfield. When you graduated, then you did have some time off, right? Yes. Did you go home?

01:40:59.000 - 01:41:13.000

Then I went home. Tell me how you felt when you went home and wore that uniform. Oh, it's really hard to explain. My mother, all of a sudden--now, she didn't know for sure what in the world I was doing.

01:41:13.000 - 01:41:30.000

She was telling everybody, "My daughter's flying bombers, and she's doing all kinds of things, and she's doing very, very important, secretive things." "My daughter?" Oh, I'll tell you, my mother, God bless her, she was so proud of me. She was so proud of me.

01:41:30.000 - 01:41:45.000

She was proud of Mary, too, because Mary finally came back home. It took her a little while to get back home. She went back to work for Lucia Smith, and he was so happy to have her back because no one could do the work my Mary--

01:41:45.000 - 01:42:04.000

she could have been an attorney at that time because he didn't do a brief without my sister Mary checking it out to be sure it was what it should be. She corrected him, and he took all her corrections because she knew what she was doing. How did you get from Sweetwater back to Fairbault when you graduated?

01:42:04.000 - 01:42:12.000

On a train. By yourself? By myself. Let's see.

01:42:12.000 - 01:42:28.000

I asked. Catherine Murphy came with me back at that time. Oh, and I'll tell you, I was so proud. I had that winter uniform on, and I had that coat on, you know, that officer's coat. Boy, I'll tell you.

01:42:28.000 - 01:42:40.000

Of course, people didn't know what in the world I was walking around in. They had no idea. They didn't say too much about--my Fairbault paper doesn't--that's all right. I mean, there's not too much about what I do in the Fairbault paper.

01:42:40.000 - 01:42:54.000

And then your assignment was at Las Vegas, so then how did you get from Fairbault to Las Vegas? By train. To whom did you report when you got to Las Vegas? Operational officer.

01:42:54.000 - 01:43:02.000

I wish I checked up on all these names. Operation officer. I checked in with him and gave him my orders. And then what was your assignment?

01:43:02.000 - 01:43:09.000

Oh, I trained gunners. I like to tell this. I scared the hell out of the gunners. They went overseas and they won the war for us.

01:43:09.000 - 01:43:30.000

But anyway, I was either a co-pilot of the B-17, and they'd dive in at us with either AT-6s or P-39s, and then they would take pictures of us as we dove in. They dove in at us when I was a co-pilot of the B-17. But my first mission--oh, I've got to tell you my first mission.

01:43:30.000 - 01:43:52.000

I was supposed to be one of the fighters. I got in the AT-6, and this fellow says, "Jump in the back," and he got in the front. We had the canopies open, and we got up to about 4,000 feet, and down below us about 1,000, maybe 1,500 feet below us, the B-17s came along in formation.

01:43:52.000 - 01:44:06.000

He dove in at them, and he pulled up, turned around, went back and landed. He says, "Okay, you're checked out." I said, "Well, there's nothing to that." So I went up, canopy open, I'm just having a ball up there, beautiful air,

01:44:06.000 - 01:44:16.000

waiting for the next group of B-17s to come. I dove so steep. I lost my hat. I lost that beautiful hat that I wore flying.

01:44:16.000 - 01:44:31.000

I lost the earphones. Thank God, didn't lose me. I was attached that time. So I went back up, and I kind of thought, "Well, now, I'm sitting in the back, he's sitting in the front."

01:44:31.000 - 01:44:43.000

I didn't realize how steep I was flying, so I shouldn't-- You know, if he'd let me just dive once while he was in the airplane, you know, I'd have got an idea, but that's all right. So I thought, "Well, I shouldn't dive quite so steep."

01:44:43.000 - 01:45:00.000

And I closed the canopy, and I got down, and I went the gentle turn, went down, around, made my big turn, came back up, waited for the next formation. I was careful after that to know what altitude I was diving at. I'm sure I did some Gs and didn't even know it.

01:45:00.000 - 01:45:12.000

[laughs] And then it got so, I'd meet two other fellows up there, there'd be three of us, and we were supposed to take turns diving at the B-17, and then we'd start flying formation, start a little dogfight,

01:45:12.000 - 01:45:31.000

and then all of a sudden, they'd call our numbers, "Would you please watch to see the B-17 formation is now leaving your area." "Oh, we forgot, they gone by. Well, we'll wait for the next one." So we had a little fun in between times.

01:45:31.000 - 01:45:40.000

I always said I flew too close to them. They didn't like my flying so close to the formation. I said, "That's what I thought you were supposed to do, flying formation." I was--

01:45:40.000 - 01:45:55.000

Were they gunners? Did they have cameras? In the B-17s, they had camera guns. That is right. And they took a picture as we came by. They took a picture of us. And then they took that film out, and they showed it on what they called the Waller trainer.

01:45:55.000 - 01:46:16.000

The Waller trainer was about maybe a three-story building, and it was all rounded. And then they had--that was all white, and they shot the film-- My arms--if they cut out my arms, I'll quit talking. Anyway, they would show that film on the screen, and they would see who had had a good shot,

01:46:16.000 - 01:46:32.000

who had shot the best, which--in what position. What were your quarters like? Where did you live? They called them the bachelor quarters. That's all right. We just had a bare room, and we had a cot.

01:46:32.000 - 01:46:51.000

One of the nurses left, so I did get a little dresser, which was really a premium. Some of the girls used my dresser to put some things in because there was nothing there in that room. And being Las Vegas, we had a lot of sand in our room. The sand would come in the windows whether you liked it or not.

01:46:51.000 - 01:47:08.000

More than sweet water? Yes, more than sweet water, because we had the winds and the sand all the time. We had what they called dust devils a lot on our runways. I never remember them as sweet water. Did we have dust devils in sweet water? I don't know.

01:47:08.000 - 01:47:22.000

But anyhow, in Las Vegas, we had a lot of dust devils, and there was this swirling sand coming. It was like a small tornado, really. But anyway, you just try to stay clear of that if you could. Did you have a roommate at Las Vegas?

01:47:22.000 - 01:47:44.000

At that time, no. We were in the bachelor's quarters. We had our own room. How about that? Then I also was a copa in the B-26, and that had a great big long tow rope, and behind that they had a big sleeve, and it was made of muslin.

01:47:44.000 - 01:47:58.000

People today don't even know what muslin is. It was a very, very coarse material. But anyway, that's what this big sleeve was made of, and they would shoot at the sleeve with actual ammunition.

01:47:58.000 - 01:48:12.000

Now another thing they did, which I thought was so interesting, each pilot had his own color of bullet. They'd be dipped in some kind of a red or green or yellow or whatever color, and that would be their bullets.

01:48:12.000 - 01:48:32.000

So when they got through, they'd examine the sleeve and see who had been the best pilot that day at shooting the aircraft. Then we would have--in fact, being that we had all this dust coming in the windows, we took some of those sleeves and made them into curtains

01:48:32.000 - 01:48:46.000

and put them on our windows because it helped keep out some of the sand. I wished I'd taken some of them home, but who knows. So they would dispose of that particular target once that mission was finished? Once that mission was done.

01:48:46.000 - 01:49:03.000

Unless they missed every one of them, then they'd take it up again. [Laughs] Did you go through some special training in order to be a copilot on that 26? I never did on the 26, but I did do copilot transition on the B-17. I went through that transition.

01:49:03.000 - 01:49:21.000

And the reason we had to do other missions besides what we did with the AT-6, what had happened was--and I can understand their feeling. At the time I thought it was kind of funny. But we had nurses at the field, and they were the WACs.

01:49:21.000 - 01:49:36.000

And they had to work 8 hours a day. We could only fly 4 hours a day because they said the type of flying we were doing-- we didn't know anything about G-forces or anything, but the type of flying we were doing was hard on our body,

01:49:36.000 - 01:49:49.000

and we could only do 4 hours a day. So I didn't believe them. I'd go out on the flight line, and if somebody couldn't fly for their next session, it didn't matter.

01:49:49.000 - 01:50:06.000

I got checked out in every plane they had--the B-26, the B-17, the P-39, and the AT-6. So whenever that fellow was flying, I said, "Well, you sign the Form 1, and I'll take your mission." So I did that. I was in a surprise if something happened while I was in the airplane

01:50:06.000 - 01:50:19.000

because it wouldn't have been John Jones at all, it would have been Betty Wall. But anyway, nothing happened. They'd sign their Form 1 as if they'd done--I suppose it wasn't cricket, but I loved it. There were many days I flew 8 hours a day.

01:50:19.000 - 01:50:38.000

Then on Saturdays I'd take the bomber pilots out in the AT-6--they loved the AT-6-- and then I'd rack them through the AT-6, and then they could do some flying in the 6. Then on Sundays we'd fly the B-17, take a little trip over the Grand Canyon or some other place, and wonderful.

01:50:38.000 - 01:50:51.000

I loved to sit in that nose turret. Oh, I was right there, right there over those mountains. It was wonderful. Well, then--and I always tell this little story.

01:50:51.000 - 01:51:07.000

I believe I was the first woman in space because I'd sit up there in a coat pile for a couple hours, and all of a sudden, "I'm tired." As I say, I'd get exhausted. I'd go and pull some of their parachutes and put them down on the Bambi,

01:51:07.000 - 01:51:20.000

and I'd lay down, and I'd fall asleep just like that. Oh, I tell you, I had that ability. And all of a sudden, when they knew that I was asleep, they started doing this, and I started flying.

01:51:20.000 - 01:51:32.000

I was suspended in space. I couldn't--I kept grabbing things. The oxygen tanks would fall down, the straps would fall down, and I kept grabbing, and everything would fall on top of me, and I'm a-floating.

01:51:32.000 - 01:51:40.000

So I always say I'm the first woman in space. [laughs] The fellows were great, though. And I'll tell you something else.

01:51:40.000 - 01:51:53.000

I was always respected. I never had any problem with any of the boys or the men on the field. They treated me with respect because I expected it. Well, that's the way I was brought up.

01:51:53.000 - 01:52:09.000

I didn't know there was any other way. In fact, I'll never forget, one of the gals came in, and she came in, and they said by her last name, "Okay, Smith, your plane is ready, and you're supposed to fly this mission."

01:52:09.000 - 01:52:22.000

And then I walked in behind her, and they said, "Good morning, Miss Wall." And she turned around, and she says, "How come you call her Miss Wall, and you call me by my last name?" He said, "I respect Miss Wall, and I'll respect anybody who expects respect."

01:52:22.000 - 01:52:39.000

I felt kind of bad because I would never, ever, ever put any of my women friends down because she was a good friend of mine, and I felt kind of bad. While you were at Vegas, what was your social life like? Very little.

01:52:39.000 - 01:52:51.000

They said not to date instructors. I didn't date instructors. [laughs] I was amazed afterwards how soon some of my girl pilot friends, how soon they got involved with the instructors, marrying instructors.

01:52:51.000 - 01:53:09.000

I thought, gee, they got acquainted in a short time. [laughs] But I took them at their word. Not that I don't remember anybody getting in line to go out with me, but I used to go to the non-comm club in town because they had no other club to go to.

01:53:09.000 - 01:53:21.000

So they had a non-commissioned club in town. I used to, on my Saturday afternoons, we'd go there, and then they'd have a big dance, and I had a ball. I didn't know you weren't supposed to fraternize with the non-comms.

01:53:21.000 - 01:53:36.000

I had some real good friends there. Some of them, they had the link trainers, instructors. They were some of my good friends, and I just felt very comfortable with those people. We had no other association with any men

01:53:36.000 - 01:53:52.000

because there were no officers' club to go to in town, and there was no place where we could go where we could meet pilots except we went to those dances. While you were at Vegas, did you go on any temporary assignments to training?

01:53:52.000 - 01:54:01.000

Did you go to OCS, for example? Yes, I did. I went to OCS down in Orlando, Florida, and had a ball. Describe that for me. Oh, well, I'll tell you what happened.

01:54:01.000 - 01:54:19.000

One day, after flying maybe two months of most days flying eight hours a day, one day my friends couldn't get me out of bed, and the second day they couldn't get me out of bed. They knew I was sick because they knew that I loved my flying.

01:54:19.000 - 01:54:31.000

So they really almost hauled me over to the flight surgeon. He gave me an examination. He says, "Well, really, there's nothing physically wrong with you." He said, "You must be pregnant."

01:54:31.000 - 01:54:40.000

"Oh, no, I'm not pregnant." I said, "I'm not married." He said, "Oh, you don't have to be married to be pregnant." I said, "Oh, yes, you do."

01:54:40.000 - 01:54:50.000

He says, "You're not pregnant." I had pilot's fatigue. At that time, it was just a couple weeks, the time that I was going down to Orlando, Florida,

01:54:50.000 - 01:55:01.000

and so they gave me an R&R. Now, I could either go up to Lake Charleston, which I should have, because there were all men up there, but anyway, I took the opportunity to go home for those two weeks,

01:55:01.000 - 01:55:13.000

and then I was sent down to Orlando, Florida for officer's training. I said, "Well, what are all those friends of mine going to do if they can't fly their airplanes?" He says, "That's tough.

01:55:13.000 - 01:55:26.000

"They didn't know I was doing all that flying." So I guess maybe there was something about the G-forces that really was doing something to a person's body, because I mostly did this.

01:55:26.000 - 01:55:43.000

I did some of the co-pilot, but most of my job was diving in at the bombers. Then one day--I shouldn't tell you this, but one day they said, "Okay, well, we need somebody to fly a P-39."

01:55:43.000 - 01:55:54.000

"Oh, boy, I've been waiting for these pursuit aircraft. "That's all we had in the field were the P-39s." I said, "Well, great. I'd love to fly the P-39." He said, "Well, come on over."

01:55:54.000 - 01:56:07.000

He said, "Do you know anything about the P-39?" I said, "No, all I saw was folks taking off and landing again. "I don't know a thing about it. I saw some of them ground loop, too." So he said, "Well, come on. We'll go through the checklist."

01:56:07.000 - 01:56:20.000

So he went through the checklist with me, and I said, "Ah, nothing to this." He said, "Well," I said, "The only thing that bothers me, "being the engine is behind me, the crankshaft is between my legs, "and the propeller's in front of my nose,

01:56:20.000 - 01:56:33.000

"the only thing that bothers me, this is a tricycle landing gear, "and I've been flying those tail draggers. "So I don't know when I'm supposed to brake, "because I've seen some of them really crack up with the nose wheel,

01:56:33.000 - 01:56:46.000

"because if you're used to the tail draggers, "and all of a sudden this nose is in front of you, you've got to get that down "without cracking it at any speed." So I said, "That was the only thing that bothered me."

01:56:46.000 - 01:57:00.000

"Well," he said, "Don't worry. We have radio, and we'll keep in contact with you." "Okay." So I'm doing all these beautiful maneuvers. Oh, that P-39 was great to handle. And so all of a sudden my radio--

01:57:00.000 - 01:57:11.000

I was talking to him, telling him how much fun I was having, and all of a sudden my radio went dead. Well, thanks a lot, boys. So I went around, of course, the tower knew it,

01:57:11.000 - 01:57:26.000

and I went up and I was doing some stalls to see, trying to feel, at what point I should bring back the stick and where I should land. So I'm going through these stalls and trying to figure out-- you can't see the wings back here, you're kind of up in front there.

01:57:26.000 - 01:57:39.000

So I thought, well, I'll just go around, let the tower know I'm coming in. So I went around, and of course they cleared the airfield. There's a wild one up there, she never flew a P-39 before,

01:57:39.000 - 01:57:50.000

and she's going to land it, so we better clear the field. They cleared the field. They got the crash trucks out because they were sure I'd never make it down without cracking up.

01:57:50.000 - 01:58:01.000

So good pilot I am. I went through the checklist. I come in and land at the very, very beginning of the runway, and I'm going around that runway, lickety-cut.

01:58:01.000 - 01:58:13.000

Boy, they said this thing was fast, it sure is fast, and I'm just a-rolling. I didn't stop till the end of the runway. My friend Marshall was running alongside me with a little crash truck, and I got to the end of the runway, and I put the canopy back.

01:58:13.000 - 01:58:23.000

"How'd you like my landing, Marshall?" "Hell of a good landing, but why didn't you use your flaps?" I forgot to put the flaps down. So that's why I went so fast.

01:58:23.000 - 01:58:33.000

But I didn't hurt the airplane, that was my concern. I didn't want anything to happen to that pretty airplane. Never had any problem after that. Anyway, that was the B-39 story.

01:58:33.000 - 01:58:45.000

Oh, yes, and then one other day there was a mission. After I'd done my mission at the field there, they said, "Well, we need somebody to go to Indian Springs." I said, "Well, I'll go."

01:58:45.000 - 01:58:58.000

So I fly an AT-6 over there. Well, I had to go in and sign a statement I wouldn't fly below-- it said 500 feet, but I thought it was 50. Anyway, I get over there, and this big building is facing the north.

01:58:58.000 - 01:59:17.000

Now the boys were all in there as if they were in their turrets in a B-17, and they were in this ground building. Well, I come over from the south, and I do miss the roof, but I get over and I change the prop pitch on that AT-6.

01:59:17.000 - 01:59:29.000

What a beautiful roar! I turned around, every one of the fellows had hit the deck. Well, then the good pilot I was, I went around, and you're supposed to dive in at them, and then they shoot at you,

01:59:29.000 - 01:59:40.000

and then they get their grade. I found out later it was the best grade they ever had because they sure didn't want to shoot me down. Thank God it was camera guns at that time too.

01:59:40.000 - 01:59:50.000

So I was running a little low on fuel. It was so hot. At that time, all we had to take--I had to take water. They said, "You should drink a lot of fluid."

01:59:50.000 - 02:00:00.000

I had to drink water. We had flasks. The flasks were that metal flask that we had. If you didn't drink that water within the first 4 or 5 minutes

02:00:00.000 - 02:00:16.000

you were in that area, you couldn't put that flask to your lips. It was so hot on the desert. I had to wear gloves on my hand because our instruments were metal, and my feet burned, but I had a couple of pairs of socks on.

02:00:16.000 - 02:00:28.000

It was so hot on that desert. Anyway, I landed, and when I pulled up I could see this man running down the ramp. I could see he wasn't too happy. Before I get out of an airplane, I take my comb out of my little pocket,

02:00:28.000 - 02:00:41.000

I take my lipstick, I take my hat off, I brush up my hair because I'm a woman pilot, put my lipstick on, and I jump on the wing of the airplane, and this fellow comes around, and I could tell he was mad.

02:00:41.000 - 02:00:51.000

But I don't think he said what he saw. What he saw was me. He said, "I'm going to report you." I said, "What did I do?"

02:00:51.000 - 02:01:11.000

First he kept looking at the airplane, trying to reach up and see who was in the cockpit. He says, "Where's that pilot that flew that last mission?" See, I was the first woman pilot to fly on the Indian Springs Airfield. I said, "Well, I'm your pilot. I'm going to report you."

02:01:11.000 - 02:01:21.000

I said, "What did I do?" He said, "You scared the crap out of my boys." I said, "I did." I said, "Then where are your boys going from here?"

02:01:21.000 - 02:01:35.000

He said, "Well, they're going to combat, and I want them to live to get there." I said, "Well, don't you think maybe that this was a good mission? Because you know the enemy are not going to come around and say, 'Here I am, boys, see if you can hit me down.'

02:01:35.000 - 02:01:44.000

Don't you think it was kind of a good--?" I thought of that in a hurry. Anyway, he said, "Well, I'm going to report you." I said, "Well, you go right ahead."

02:01:44.000 - 02:01:54.000

Now, whatever happened, I don't know, because I never got any reprimand from him. We became friends later. That was another thing. I tell you, I met him in North Plant, Nebraska, afterwards.

02:01:54.000 - 02:02:12.000

Ha, ha, ha, that's another story. Anyway, I landed and went back to the field, and I didn't have any problem. Let me go back and ask you about your training in Orlando. What did you get from--well, you went from home to Orlando.

02:02:12.000 - 02:02:30.000

By train. We went by train up to Minnesota, then I went by train down to Orlando. Okay. Then what did you do at Orlando? Oh, I had a wonderful time. Of course, glory be to God, if I thought Las Vegas was hot, Florida not only was hot, it was humid.

02:02:30.000 - 02:02:43.000

In fact, what we would do, we would go in class. We'd have to be in about 8 o'clock in the morning until about 1130. We had an hour off for lunch. We'd come out, and we'd be dripping. I mean dripping.

02:02:43.000 - 02:03:00.000

We'd go get into our--a lot of us wore our swimsuits underneath, and we'd go jump in the lake. That was our lunch time. Then we'd gobble a sandwich, and we'd get back to the officer's training. What was the training for?

02:03:00.000 - 02:03:22.000

It was for if we got down in the tropics that we'd know how to handle ourselves. We had to have salads from the trees and leaves. We got the oil from some of the--it wasn't really bark, but it was some kind of a tree that was very, very narrow, almost some kind of a plant.

02:03:22.000 - 02:03:36.000

We'd get the oil from that, and we had to eat rattlesnake. We had to have some rattlesnake. We ate exotic food, food that you could get from the desert and survive. I thought it was great. I didn't mind at all.

02:03:36.000 - 02:03:44.000

Wonderful. Okay, we're going to roll up. Okay. We're going to change the-- Aren't you tired of hearing me talk?

02:03:44.000 - 02:03:56.000

No, are you kidding? I've got to get some more water. You're in training, officer's candidate school, or whatever it's called, right? Let's see it, then. We'll see it.

02:03:56.000 - 02:04:10.000

Tell me about some of the other courses in military. Did you get military courtesy? Military courtesy, we had to find out the ranks, what all the different ranks in the military were.

02:04:10.000 - 02:04:27.000

I don't really remember too much, but I remember there was a lot of reading and a lot of real studying because it was very intense. We didn't really have too much time off. Did some of the other girls from Las Vegas also attend while you were there?

02:04:27.000 - 02:04:42.000

Yes, well, not from Las Vegas, but my friend Catherine Murphy was there. I remember her particularly because she did my hair up in French braids for me. They called me the blonde bomber. Was it blonde there?

02:04:42.000 - 02:05:00.000

It was pretty blonde. I'd been in the sun so much, even as a kid. I was kind of a toehead to begin with, then I got blonde in school. But when I was outside a lot, my hair kind of faded, became blonde. How long did that course last?

02:05:00.000 - 02:05:21.000

I wish I could actually remember. I wished I'd taken more notes about my--or kept more of that information and the facts and figures out of the "Horizons Unlimited," the book that my good friend wrote.

02:05:21.000 - 02:05:30.000

On "Final Approach"? On "Final Approach." I was with her a lot when she was writing that. "Bird Granger." "Bird Granger," when she lived up at Arizona.

02:05:30.000 - 02:05:42.000

I used to go to Arizona every year for three months, and I used to visit her a lot with her cousin there. But it was just a short--maybe a month or something? Oh, it was a very short time.

02:05:42.000 - 02:05:59.000

If it even were a full month, it might have been like two and a half, three weeks. It wasn't that long. Then did you get back to Vegas on the train? Yes, I got sent back to Vegas on the train and put back in flying missions.

02:05:59.000 - 02:06:15.000

Did you stay in Vegas until the WASPs were disbanded, or did you have another assignment? When I got back to Vegas, they needed an instrument instructor, so I was sent back to Sweetwater, Texas for more training and became an instrument instructor for the fellows.

02:06:15.000 - 02:06:24.000

Tell me about the instrument training at Sweetwater. Where did you live? I lived on the field. Same barracks?

02:06:24.000 - 02:06:35.000

Same barracks. It was the same barracks area. I was in a different barracks than I had been before. Who were your instructors at Sweetwater then in instruments? Were they civilians?

02:06:35.000 - 02:06:48.000

No. Well, there was one that was a lieutenant. The rest were civilian instructors. I wish I could remember their names. I don't remember their names. How long was that course?

02:06:48.000 - 02:07:07.000

I would imagine I was there maybe three weeks. Then I was sent back to Las Vegas. The fellows who were going overseas, they had a refresher course with me. The first person I was supposed to fly was--his name was Jim Lusen.

02:07:07.000 - 02:07:22.000

He was a good friend of mine. In fact, we kind of dated. He was about 6 feet tall, and I was 5'3", and I had two cushions on my parachute on my back, and he had just his parachute, and he was really dragging.

02:07:22.000 - 02:07:36.000

So I said, "You don't want to fly with me?" and he said, "No." See, we used to fly formation together, and he always thought I got too close. He didn't like that. So he said, "Well?" I said, "Well, you're afraid to fly with me?"

02:07:36.000 - 02:07:48.000

He said, "Yes." So I said, "Well, I'll tell you what. I'm not afraid to fly with you. Let's get in the airplane, and you take off, but when we get up to 4,000 feet, I want control."

02:07:48.000 - 02:08:02.000

So we got up to 4,000 feet, and I wiggled the stick. I did maneuvers I didn't even know I knew. I wanted him to be comfortable with the fact that I didn't care what kind of a maneuver he put us into that I could handle it

02:08:02.000 - 02:08:17.000

or get back on the straight and narrow. So he got a little green, and then we landed, and then I said, "Now do you mind if I put the hood on, because can you trust me to pull out of whatever kind of a situation you put us in?"

02:08:17.000 - 02:08:28.000

He said, "Okay." I never had any problem after that. They all got under the hood. You know, those hoods were kind of scary because you had to be hooked in. What kind of airplane were you flying?

02:08:28.000 - 02:08:46.000

That was the 86. Did you continue in that with those missions until--? Not--well, I was fortunate because whenever somebody was going overseas, I'd give them a refresher, but then I could go back to flying the missions.

02:08:46.000 - 02:08:50.000

With the-- With the bomb guys. Yeah. Yeah.

02:08:50.000 - 02:09:04.000

I liked that. The other--instrument sections, all you got to do is wait until they get you into a crazy position and then, you know, get out of it. But I never let them get too close to the ground, I'll tell you that.

02:09:04.000 - 02:09:17.000

When they got close to the ground, I was in control. Were there any other things unusual that happened at Vegas that you want to tell us about? Was anyone ever hurt while you were there?

02:09:17.000 - 02:09:42.000

Oh, yes. In August when we got there, it was no more than a week or two before there was a crash, and Helen Severson was on that crash and also Marjorie, I think, Seip, S-E-I-M-P, Seip, S-E-I-P? Uh-huh.

02:09:42.000 - 02:10:01.000

Okay, she was on that crash. And we were brought into the recreational hall, and we were told that if we want-- See, we had done just a little flying by that time, and we were told if we were concerned, if we were afraid to fly at that time,

02:10:01.000 - 02:10:08.000

that we should resign, but not one of us did. Were they based at Vegas? Yeah. Oh, yes.

02:10:08.000 - 02:10:22.000

In fact, the two girls were up for graduation. Let's see, if it were August-- They must have been graduating in September because of the latter part of August. Yes, they were graduating in September.

02:10:22.000 - 02:10:32.000

So this is when you were in training. Just came to training, right. Back to instrument training. I had to-- Instrument? What about-- Excuse me?

02:10:32.000 - 02:10:46.000

Was it when you went back to Sweetwater for instrument training? Oh, no, no. It was when we first went to Sweetwater, Texas, because we went there in August. Okay. And it was just a week or two after we were there this happened.

02:10:46.000 - 02:10:52.000

Okay. This was while you were a trainee at Avenger. Right. Right. Okay.

02:10:52.000 - 02:11:01.000

But they were in an upper class. They were just going to graduate in September. I understand. That was kind of their last flight.

02:11:01.000 - 02:11:24.000

Well, then I'll tell you a little situation about that. Then after it all, I came home, and after all, it was about maybe 9 or 10 years ago, someone came knocking on my-- No, it was after that, about '93, because I had been-- Big television show of some kind, I don't know what it was,

02:11:24.000 - 02:11:42.000

telling about the Women's Air Force. They found us. And so this one gal came knocking on my door, and she's Helen Severson's sister. She lives up in Lakeville, and she and her husband, Jack, she's about maybe 12, 13 years younger than Helen,

02:11:42.000 - 02:12:06.000

and she knew very little about her sister. In fact, Helen had even been married and gone, and Isaac, John-- Naomi is her name, Naomi, Isaac--and lovely lady. She and her husband came, and that's how they found out.

02:12:06.000 - 02:12:22.000

He had seen me on television, and when they said-- I was from Fairmount, Minnesota, so they came down to see me. They didn't know anything about me, but they had stopped at the Lavender Inn. They happened to be friends of mine, and so they said, "Well, yeah, I lived in town."

02:12:22.000 - 02:12:38.000

So they came and saw me. And we become very good friends, and her daughter teaches school, so I go every year to their school to give a program. And then Naomi comes along, and Jack, there's such darling people.

02:12:38.000 - 02:12:55.000

And we became very, very close. Well, then she's the one that told me that Helen was not even supposed to have flown that day, that someone else was supposed to fly, and they got a phone call, and they said, "Well, Helen, you're next in line, so you go on this flight."

02:12:55.000 - 02:13:12.000

And so she was killed on that flight. And so we become very good friends, and Helen has done some investigating into the accident. For the longest time, it was private. They wouldn't--secretive--they wouldn't let her know about her own sister.

02:13:12.000 - 02:13:42.000

So she's found out more now, and I think she's a little more comfortable, and she's come and met some of our gals, and she's a lovely, lovely lady. Well, then at the air show 3 weeks ago when I was with the Minneapolis Aquitennial Air Show, Air Expo, some young man came over, and he said, "You know," he says, "I wondered if you knew my aunt, Marjorie Seep."

02:13:42.000 - 02:14:04.000

And I said, "Well, no, I didn't, but you know," I said, "I was at the field when she crashed." And so now I met the two girls that were with this instructor at the time of the accident. And it was in that August when we first got there. Right. While you were in training also, something happened to a girl in your class.

02:14:04.000 - 02:14:15.000

Do you want to tell us about that, when she--they turned the airplane upside down? Was that Edie King? Yes. What happened to the girl when the girl fell out? Tell us about that.

02:14:15.000 - 02:14:34.000

Oh, yes, I'd love to tell you about that. We were in primary training, and of course it was all open cockpit. And I don't know, Marie says her strap broke, and so I'll go along with that. Anyway, they were doing acrobatics, and they went into a spin, and he turned around, and there goes his pilot.

02:14:34.000 - 02:14:50.000

I mean, there goes his student out the canopy--I mean, out the seat. And so, of course, they called the tower, and they got the crash truck out there. Well, we had heard that she had fallen. And so, oh, we were so excited.

02:14:50.000 - 02:15:12.000

Now, Marie was--she played the flute for a great orchestra in Des Moines, Iowa. And so she was just the type to play a flute because she was a lovely lady. She never raised her voice. And so we're there jumping up and down so excited because the truck went out to pick her up, and she was okay.

02:15:12.000 - 02:15:29.000

And so when she got into the ready room, we all went to meet her. How did you feel? Weren't you scared? How did you remember to pull the chute? And she said, "When I realized that I had left the aircraft, I counted to ten, and I pulled the chute."

02:15:29.000 - 02:15:43.000

And we could have killed her. I mean, we thought, "This is when she's going to get excited." You know, I saw her at the last reunion in October, and she's still kind of whispering. She doesn't really speak up at all.

02:15:43.000 - 02:15:55.000

God bless her. She's a good, good friend of mine, she and John. She met John in the field, and John was one of the B-17 pilots. And we used to double date.

02:15:55.000 - 02:16:20.000

I don't remember which one I had at the time, but one of the boyfriends at the field. But we had a great time. And also, Madeline Hill also was in my class, and she also met her--Madeline, Madeline, Madeline, whatever her name was. Anyway, she met this Jack Hill, and he was a B-17 pilot, and they got married.

02:16:20.000 - 02:16:32.000

And did you meet anybody special at Las Vegas? Oh, I met all--they were all special. I mean, I liked them all. And I liked the fellow that didn't want to fly with me.

02:16:32.000 - 02:16:52.000

I kind of liked Jim Lusen. In fact, I found out the other day that he was on a bus going to Laughlin, and some of my friends from town-- it's just funny how situations happen. They were introducing each other on the bus, and Stewie and his wife said, "Well, we're from Fairbanks, Minnesota."

02:16:52.000 - 02:17:07.000

"Oh," he said, "the only person I know in Fairbanks is Betty Wall." "Betty Wall? Elizabeth Wall?" "Well, whatever you call her," he says, "she was Betty Wall to me." He used to fly with her, and that was Jim Lusen, the one that didn't want to fly instruments with me.

02:17:07.000 - 02:17:25.000

And he's still alive in Kansas City, Missouri. His folks had a music store. I was pretty fond of him, too, but it didn't work out. After you got back from Orlando, when did you first hear that the Watts were going to be disbanded, and how did it make you feel?

02:17:25.000 - 02:17:45.000

Well, it must have been the first part of December. I always like to say it was about three days before they left us, but I think it was the first part of December we heard that they were going to disband the Watts, and some of the Watts left at that time. Marie Mountain and I stayed until the last dog was hung.

02:17:45.000 - 02:18:03.000

We stayed there at Las Vegas until the 20th of December when we had to leave. It broke my heart. It really did. But I knew that our women were in there just to relieve the men for combat duty. I knew that there were men coming home from overseas that needed a flight to get their flight paid,

02:18:03.000 - 02:18:21.000

and I knew that it was the time for our women pilots to go home. But it didn't help me any much at that time because I loved to fly airplanes. Did the commanding officer at Las Vegas do anything special for you, Watts? No.

02:18:21.000 - 02:18:34.000

What happened on December 20th then? We turned in all our uniforms and our equipment. I went around and said goodbye to all my non-coms and all my friends and went home. And how did you get--did you go home?

02:18:34.000 - 02:18:51.000

I went home. Marie Mountain had a car, and I drove as far as Des Moines with her, and then I took a train home from there. Tell us then what you did after you got home and visited people. What was your next--did you get a job?

02:18:51.000 - 02:19:06.000

Well, my first reaction, of course--after all, I went to see some friends of mine in Chicago, Illinois, and I got a seaplane rating. The fellow there gave me one. [Laughs] Got me a license in two days.

02:19:06.000 - 02:19:21.000

I flew for one day, and the next day I went out and the fellow passed me. Well, I felt--I had a seaplane rating, I had a four-engine rating, I had an instrument rating, and I felt I was the hottest pilot alive. And if you didn't think so, just ask me.

02:19:21.000 - 02:19:41.000

And I went to Northwest Airlines, and I said, "I'd like to be your pilot because I have all these credentials." And they were very impressed with my credentials, but they didn't hire women pilots. So I cried a little, and they wanted me in their front office. Well, I told them what they could do at their front office.

02:19:41.000 - 02:20:01.000

I wasn't about to go working in an office. To get back into an office after doing what we did, it was a real kind of a bummer. So then a fellow in town here, he was an electrician, and I wound motors for him for a while, but that got boring. I went out to California then to be with my sister, Julianne.

02:20:01.000 - 02:20:19.000

She lived in Long Beach, and I did a lot of crazy things. I was even an archery instructor for Hollywood starlets. But I didn't know a thing about archery. I'd go at night, find out how to hold the bow, and go back the next day and tell them what to do.

02:20:19.000 - 02:20:30.000

I did that for a while, but I didn't get much pay. And then I went to Firestone Tire Rubber Company. I worked for them for a while. I got a real good job in the cashier's office.

02:20:30.000 - 02:20:50.000

And then there was going to be an air show, air race. And I went to Mr. Firestone, and I said, "If you want to win that race, hire me, and I'll do-- and you pick any kind of airplane you have or you want me to fly, and I'll fly it for you, and I'll win your race." Well, he said, "We already have the man pilot that's going to do our race."

02:20:50.000 - 02:21:02.000

So I didn't stay there long. And then my mother got ill. She had arthritis, and I felt, well-- Julie had stayed home a long time, and she's now married.

02:21:02.000 - 02:21:20.000

And my sister Catherine was married, my brother George is married, and I felt my sister Mary should have a little help by this time. My Mary stuck home all the time when she came home from the service. So I came home, and--God bless them.

02:21:20.000 - 02:21:40.000

And I--well, for a while I didn't know what to do, but Mary worked in the lawyer's office. Well, before I did that, though, excuse me, then I went to aircraft communications. I couldn't find a job anywhere else. I was in aircraft communications for a while.

02:21:40.000 - 02:21:56.000

And I trained down in Kansas City, Missouri. One of my friends and I--she had a college education, and I had a pilot's license, and that's why they let me be a part of this. Otherwise, you had to be a college graduate to be a woman communicator.

02:21:56.000 - 02:22:15.000

And so I was sent along the--well, around the runway--along the airway. I started in Kansas City, went into North Flat, Nebraska, went to Grand Island, Nebraska, and I loved those positions. And then they sent me to Rollins, Wyoming at the bottom of a mountain, Sinclair Radio.

02:22:15.000 - 02:22:29.000

They had a prison about maybe 10, 12, maybe not even that far, 7, 8 miles from us where they had a prison. We had to man the--there was another girl, a communicator. She and I--there were two fellas.

02:22:29.000 - 02:22:47.000

He was the chief communicator, and he and his assistant had the days shift all the time. And my friend and I, we took turns taking from 8 to midnight or midnight till 8 o'clock in the morning. We never got to see daylight.

02:22:47.000 - 02:23:06.000

And we got to talk to the pilots, and we got to put our teletype on for the weather. Also, we had to go and walk maybe a fourth of a mile. We had to go into where it was really dark, because it wasn't real dark, because there was nothing there but desert.

02:23:06.000 - 02:23:25.000

But we had to walk out to get our--to shoot this light to find out what the ceiling was and to get the temperature and the barometer and all the instruments to read that we needed. I had to take a big stick with me because we had prairie dogs, we had snakes, and we had all kinds of interesting animals there crawling around the desert.

02:23:25.000 - 02:23:40.000

I took that and did this as I went. And we had to do that every hour, every half hour if the weather were bad, because that's the way we put our weather on the teletype. We put on the teletype the kind of weather we had.

02:23:40.000 - 02:23:58.000

And I did that for quite a while. Well, it was in May. I did it from--it wasn't quite a year. Maybe it was--well, maybe it was a year, anyway, from May to May, something like that.

02:23:58.000 - 02:24:15.000

Just before the 1st of May, I thought--I had a good talk with myself. And I said, "Are you happy here, Betty?" And I said, "No." I said, "Do you want to stay here?" And I said, "No." I was getting pretty good money at the time, not as well as the other fellows were being paid,

02:24:15.000 - 02:24:28.000

but I felt I was getting a fair share. And I said, "Well, why are you staying here?" And I said, "I don't know." And I decided that was enough. I wrote up a resignation and gave it to Mac.

02:24:28.000 - 02:24:42.000

And he was so bitter toward women. I guess his--I'd never seen his wife, but I guess she was crippled. He had told us when we were there, "You know, Rollins, Wyoming is pretty cold in the winter. Even the 1st of May, they had snow."

02:24:42.000 - 02:24:59.000

And he had told us we had deep snow. We had to drive--it was 10 miles to where we lived, to Sinclair Radio. And we had to drive there by ourselves, and it was nothing between there. I mean, we were right out in the desert to go to our station.

02:24:59.000 - 02:25:13.000

And he told us, he said, "Don't ever call me if you have a problem with your car. I don't want anything. It's not my fault." Or, "I did not want women here in the 1st place. And you're here, you're going to take care of yourself.

02:25:13.000 - 02:25:29.000

You'd never call me for any problem." So this girl and I took care of each other because he did not want anything to do with us women. So when I told him I was retiring, he said, "Well, now, Betty, when you come through here,

02:25:29.000 - 02:25:45.000

you just stop by our station to be sure to tell us how you're doing, what you're going on." I said, "Mac, when I leave this office, you're never going to see me again. I have never been as miserable in all my life as I've been in this office. I will never see the face of you again."

02:25:45.000 - 02:25:56.000

And I turned around and walked out. And I felt pretty good because growing up as a lady, you were never supposed to speak to someone, especially older than you and any other, but respectful tones.

02:25:56.000 - 02:26:11.000

But I had had it up to here with that man, the way he treated our women. And at the time, you see, I didn't know I could complain. I didn't know I could write in to Casey and look. I cannot stand this kind of treatment.

02:26:11.000 - 02:26:22.000

It was really rough under someone like that. Never help you. There were times--I had an accident at one time. Someone had run me off the road, and my car was laid up.

02:26:22.000 - 02:26:33.000

We had to take care of ourselves. Cars were hard to come by. I had an old wreck of a car to go back and forth, not knowing if it's ever going to work or going to get you back and forth.

02:26:33.000 - 02:26:43.000

I didn't care about us at all, and that was the end of that for me. But then you came home. And then I came home. You helped take care of your mom.

02:26:43.000 - 02:26:52.000

I took care of my mother and stayed with Mother. And I worked with my sister Mary part-time. She worked in the attorney's office. Then I got into income tax.

02:26:52.000 - 02:27:04.000

I started doing income tax. And this one fellow came in, and he had, oh, such a cute little farmer. He had 10, 12 kids, a lot of kids. I was figuring out for him, and I figured it down where he didn't have to--

02:27:04.000 - 02:27:17.000

he paid a little bit so he gets Social Security, but just not too much out of it because he was raising his family and working on the farm and working so hard for a day's wages. So I did pretty good for him,

02:27:17.000 - 02:27:31.000

and I brought the income tax form into my sister and Lucious. They were working in the other room, and I brought them in. I says, "Well, little does Mr. Greer know that he and I are going to go to prison, because I sure did good." [laughs]

02:27:31.000 - 02:27:48.000

I gave them the income tax. It was okay, I did okay, but I just made that statement just for the fun of it. Where were you when you then met someone really special? Well, when I was home with Mama, my mother, she had arthritis very badly.

02:27:48.000 - 02:28:00.000

My mother would crawl up the stairs and crawl down because she could not walk, but she would not give up. And she got over it. She worked that darn arthritis out of it.

02:28:00.000 - 02:28:15.000

She finally died of cancer, but she had it for 15 years. My sister Mary had cancer for 15 years. Mama had cancer for 5 years, and then Mary got cancer. And they both lived 15 years with their cancer.

02:28:15.000 - 02:28:32.000

At the time my sister Mary was down, we went to Mayo for her all the time, Mayo Clinic, which is in Rochester, Minnesota, only 50 miles away. We brought her there, and when my Mary died, her file was the largest they had ever had in Mayo Clinic.

02:28:32.000 - 02:28:47.000

Because my Mary would read up and find out what was new in cancer, and she did everything she could. They burned her with radiation, then she got bone cancer. First they took one breast off, then the other breast off,

02:28:47.000 - 02:28:59.000

and then they did a flap, all the skin from-- I'm telling you, my sister went through hell. She did everything she could because she thought she could fight it, and she did for 15 years.

02:28:59.000 - 02:29:12.000

She worked up until the day she died. Did your mom die first? Mama died first. Mama died in 1958, and my sister Mary died in 1969.

02:29:12.000 - 02:29:29.000

In fact, oh dear, my sister Catherine died in April '69, Mary died in October '69. My husband died in October '69, Arthur Roberts, and then my sister Mary died in October '70.

02:29:29.000 - 02:29:46.000

I thought it was the end of my world. Let me go back and find when you met Arthur. Well, see, he was the one I was with when Pearl Harbor started. Then when I came back and he came back,

02:29:46.000 - 02:29:55.000

we started going out once in a while. I had another fellow that I met. It would depend upon who would come first. I didn't care.

02:29:55.000 - 02:30:02.000

I wanted to dance. So whoever would come first, I'd go dancing with them. I had a great time. Oh, I was carefree.

02:30:02.000 - 02:30:19.000

I never had a care in the world. I was working part-time for Mary with Lou Smith and helping Mama at the same time. I'd go home when Mama wanted me, and I was just having a wonderful time. For some reason--I don't remember the reason I went to Chicago.

02:30:19.000 - 02:30:37.000

There was something other than seeing that fellow I flew with in Vegas. His name was Socorro, and he was such a cute little Catholic man. He brought me to his folks' house. He said I could stay with his sister because he didn't think it was proper.

02:30:37.000 - 02:30:53.000

He knew I wouldn't want to stay where he was staying, so he brought me to stay with his sister while I was in Chicago. I stayed there for three or four days, and that's when he got me the seaplane rating. When I came back home, my Arthur met me at the train station,

02:30:53.000 - 02:31:04.000

and he said, "You're either going to take this ring, or I'm never going to see you again." He says, "I'm sick and tired of you running around, never being here." So as I said, I wasn't doing anything. The time I took his ring--oh, dear, isn't that terrible?

02:31:04.000 - 02:31:16.000

Wonderful young man. I want to say, other than dancing, what were the qualities that made you fall in love with him? Well, I suppose because he was of the same faith that I was. That was important to me.

02:31:16.000 - 02:31:30.000

At that time, for our faith, he was a Lutheran. There was this other man that I was interested in, he was a Lutheran, and for Arthur's favor, he was a Catholic, and I knew all his family, and they were close with my family.

02:31:30.000 - 02:31:44.000

It was kind of a comfortable situation. Tell me about your wedding. Oh, it was a wonderful wedding. I had--all my sisters were my bridesmaids, and we all wore white.

02:31:44.000 - 02:32:00.000

In fact, Father turned around, he didn't know who was getting married. [audience laughs] We had a wonderful--reception was at our home. At that time, there was so many--let's see, it was December 1947,

02:32:00.000 - 02:32:14.000

and it was at a time when a lot of these fellows were getting married. At that time, you could not get married during Advent in our Catholic Church, so it was two days after Christmas I got married. Did your mother approve?

02:32:14.000 - 02:32:23.000

Oh, absolutely, the two mothers, they were darling. They were just precious. We had the breakfast at a downtown restaurant, but there were so many weddings that they--

02:32:23.000 - 02:32:34.000

of course, I didn't know that we could afford it anyway. We had a reception at our home, and my sisters-- But the wedding itself was where? At the Macklin Conception Church.

02:32:34.000 - 02:32:50.000

I think there were about six weddings that day. Then where did you go on your honeymoon? Well, neither one of us had any money. So my sister at that time was married to this young man in St. Paul,

02:32:50.000 - 02:33:03.000

and she was working at the Capitol. It was over the New Year's era where she had vacation, so she and Bob came home and stayed at my home, our home. So Bob and I went up.

02:33:03.000 - 02:33:16.000

One of my friends brought us up there-- their car, because we didn't even have a car-- brought us up to their little apartment, and so we had an apartment for--we came home on the 30th.

02:33:16.000 - 02:33:27.000

And then what did he do? He eventually became the gas superintendent of the States Power Company. He had a good job. He was a good person.

02:33:27.000 - 02:33:43.000

He was a good man, but a lot of times he didn't get paid regularly. I had five children in five and a half years. Nine months and three weeks after we were married, I had a boy, and then I had five children in five and a half years.

02:33:43.000 - 02:33:57.000

I was going to ask you what you did when he was at work, but now I know. [laughter] As those children were growing up, how were you involved in their activity? Oh, I did everything for them.

02:33:57.000 - 02:34:15.000

My husband was very involved with his--when he became a gas superintendent. He had to be on 24-hour calls. He wouldn't give the job or the responsibility, even to his assistant. He felt very responsible because if there was an explosion or something

02:34:15.000 - 02:34:31.000

or any kind of a fire, he was there. And also during the winter, he had to be in charge of-- if the weather got very, very cold, he had to call certain industries up and they had to go back on their generator because the homes had to be kept warm.

02:34:31.000 - 02:34:44.000

He had to go into the office and call all these industries up and tell them to get on their generator. So he was a very responsible job. He was a wonderful, wonderful husband.

02:34:44.000 - 02:35:05.000

I really cared for Arthur, but children really kind of made him nervous. So I am at fault because I took all the blunt of everything, and I was in their Boy Scouts, their Girl Scouts, their Cub Scouts, all their trips--my, my, well, that type of thing, which is okay because I liked it.

02:35:05.000 - 02:35:18.000

But now after seeing--I wished I had involved him more. I thought I was protecting him, but I don't know. What do you know? Who teaches you how to be a parent? Nobody teaches you how to be a parent.

02:35:18.000 - 02:35:37.000

Do the best you can. Like I said one day, he was upset with one boy because he didn't get in at 10 o'clock, and he locked the door and sat in the front room waiting for him to come home. Well, I went in the other room and opened up the cellar window and pulled him in.

02:35:37.000 - 02:35:57.000

It was cold out, and I didn't want my boy to get cold. That wasn't right because he should have made knocking the door and taken his punishment. Art says, "Well, you're the heart of the family, and I'm the head," and that's true. I was probably too soft, but I thought Art was a little hard.

02:35:57.000 - 02:36:13.000

But then after all, God helped me. Pat and Mike, they needed discipline. Pat and Mike's story, believe them, God love them. Were your children able to enjoy their grandmother as they grew up?

02:36:13.000 - 02:36:28.000

Yes, they did, I thank God. Of course, my daughter was in kindergarten when my mother died, and then Grandma Roberts died about three months later. She also died of cancer.

02:36:28.000 - 02:36:45.000

I'm going to go back and ask you, who were your role models when you were growing up? My role model really was my sister Mary. I really looked up to her. I didn't know about all these other people.

02:36:45.000 - 02:36:58.000

I heard about Amelia Earhart, but I didn't know. I had no information about her. We didn't get the news. The radio was very sketchy, so I knew very little about really the outside world.

02:36:58.000 - 02:37:11.000

But my sister Mary was my role model. I loved her dearly. She was so good to all of us. I didn't realize how good she was until I grew up and realized what a wonderful person she was.

02:37:11.000 - 02:37:30.000

She was my role model. Good. As your children got older, then how old--when did your first husband pass away? My first husband died in October 1969, and he even worked the last day he died.

02:37:30.000 - 02:37:45.000

He worked half a day. It was a little sad because I didn't have any money. Because he never had enough time in for retirement, we didn't have any retirement. I was getting very little money at the courthouse.

02:37:45.000 - 02:38:05.000

I was back working at the courthouse again part-time while my kids were in school. But then when they all got in school, I worked as much as I could. I never worked long enough to stay ten years to get retirement, but that's the way it was. Then I ran for public office in 1970.

02:38:05.000 - 02:38:18.000

What did you run for? I ran for the Register of Deeds because I'd been deputy. But a good time Charlie made it. He had a lot of good drinking buddies, and they did not want women in the courthouse,

02:38:18.000 - 02:38:35.000

so I didn't make the courthouse. But in retrospect, it was the best thing that ever happened to me because in 1972 my friend Mary Lou Plumer and I went to New York. I had been working in the Cancer Society for 15 years.

02:38:35.000 - 02:38:58.000

I had received the scroll from the Chamber of Commerce in about 1968, '67, '68. I did a lot of community service. I worked for the American Cancer Society in a research study. I was the director of the County of Rice, and I had a lot of people I kept track of,

02:38:58.000 - 02:39:18.000

and I had people working for me with the study. It was called the Prevention Study. In fact, that was one of the reasons I worked hard on getting that little note on the cigarette pack warning, the warning saying that cigarette smoking could cause a lot of health problems, and we worked on that.

02:39:18.000 - 02:39:35.000

I was in the League Room and Voters of the American Legion Auxiliary. I was the president of our Parent-Teachers Association. I was very involved because I wanted to be involved with the children. I loved my time with my children.

02:39:35.000 - 02:39:44.000

It was the best time I ever had was with my children, especially when I knew what everybody was, what they were doing. [laughter] That was the best time.

02:39:44.000 - 02:39:54.000

Now I don't know what's going on. But anyway, I was very lucky, really. Then after that, the scroll, I was in the scroll. It wasn't too long.

02:39:54.000 - 02:40:09.000

My husband died the next year. So when I got my job, when Meyer, Little, Plumer, and I went to New York, I really went to New York because my kids were up in Boston. They'd been in New York, and they went to Boston.

02:40:09.000 - 02:40:18.000

I didn't hear too much about them. It was very much against the Vietnam conflict, and I was concerned because they were going to leave the country. They were going to fight these people.

02:40:18.000 - 02:40:37.000

And I thought, oh dear, I lost my husband, my sister, two sisters. Now am I going to lose my kids? So I spoke to someone who I knew was a biochemist for this Dr. Hammond out of New York. He'd go back and forth from St. Paul, and he used to pick up the study that I did.

02:40:37.000 - 02:40:52.000

I did do a good job. I got 100% most years. It was one or two people, and I had maybe 4,000 or 5,000 people I kept track of. So when he came down to pick up my last study, he said,

02:40:52.000 - 02:41:05.000

"Well, now that your boy's out there, why don't you go and see how they're doing?" I said, "That's a good idea because I'm sitting home worrying about them." He said, "Well, I think you should." He said, "And on your way, why don't you stop in New York City

02:41:05.000 - 02:41:19.000

"because I'd like to show you the kind of work you've been doing "and what we're doing with the kind of material you sent to us." Let me stop you and ask you, this study was on the effects of cigarettes? It was the effects of cigarettes.

02:41:19.000 - 02:41:37.000

It's called a cancer prevention study. It was to see what the public could do to prevent cancer. So they'd ask you all kinds--some personal questions, what you ate, that type of thing. We had that study since--it must have been '65 we started it.

02:41:37.000 - 02:41:54.000

It was supposed to be only a 10- or 12-year study, but it got so important for the Cancer Society that they continued it. So when I went to New York, I went in February '72, and we were taken in and met Dr. Hammond.

02:41:54.000 - 02:42:10.000

He was our epidemiologist. I could hardly pronounce it. Anyway, he was an epidemiologist, and he was interested that I'd been doing this research for him for 15 years. But then my friend went in and spoke to him while I was out there

02:42:10.000 - 02:42:26.000

finding out what they did with the papers we sent in. She told him, she said, "You know, you really should hire someone like this." This girl, not only has she worked for the Cancer Society for 15 years, she also was in the service, and she flew with the Army Air Force.

02:42:26.000 - 02:42:39.000

Well, when he heard that I was a pilot with the military and that I had flown all those military aircraft, he went to his assistant and he said, "I don't care what it takes. I want that woman on my staff."

02:42:39.000 - 02:42:54.000

Little old me from Minnesota who couldn't even get elected in her own town for a mislead job like the Register of Deeds, oh boy! So they called me in and they asked if I'd be interested. Oh boy, would I be interested!

02:42:54.000 - 02:43:05.000

So I could start next week, the next week. So I said, "Good, I'll come." I didn't have any other interview, nothing. They just hired me.

02:43:05.000 - 02:43:19.000

So then we went up to Boston, found out the kids were doing fine. They were living in a basement apartment with all the pipes and everything around, and they were taking care of this apartment house and getting their rent free. And I knew they were out of the cold.

02:43:19.000 - 02:43:36.000

Pat was going to Cambridge part-time. He had a professor friend over there, and he went over and he played, he was playing the piano over there, and he was going to night school. Oh, thank you, God, my kids are finally joining the society of normal human beings.

02:43:36.000 - 02:43:51.000

Anyway, it was interesting to know because it was frightening for me to have the children say they were going to leave my country, our country, their country. So they were finally with the establishment up there. So then I thought, "Well, this is great.

02:43:51.000 - 02:44:05.000

I'll be on the East Coast and I can see my kids." So, oh, did I have a job. They hired me out of Minnesota, so every two weeks-- I could come home every weekend if I wanted to, but I'd come home about every two weeks.

02:44:05.000 - 02:44:18.000

I had a credit card. I could go anywhere I wanted to go, I mean, anywhere where I was sent to go. I rented a car when I got to an airport. I had my directions as to where I was supposed to go.

02:44:18.000 - 02:44:31.000

I'd find out where I was supposed to spend the night. I'd get up and get out of bed and get up and get out again at night. I'd never been in this town before, let alone be from Faribault, Minnesota. Went on into New York, and I had a marvelous time, and I met wonderful people.

02:44:31.000 - 02:44:46.000

I really never met anybody I didn't like except that fellow back there. How long did you stay in that job? Well, I was staying there, and I had two other workers that I worked with. Went to 26 different states.

02:44:46.000 - 02:45:02.000

I loved my job, I really did. Well, then I was coming home every other week, and finally I met this good-looking man that lived here. I'd come home, and we'd go dancing. Oh, we had such good time, dinner and dancing.

02:45:02.000 - 02:45:15.000

I thought, this is great. Then if I didn't have a ride to the airport, his buddy in Franny's car would drive me to the airport. He and Franny would bring me to the airport. When I'd come home, if I didn't have somebody to pick me up, they'd come pick me up.

02:45:15.000 - 02:45:25.000

So it got--I was coming home every other weekend. He said, "Why don't you come home next weekend, too?" I said, "Well, all right," so I could. I mean, I was entitled to come home any time I wanted to

02:45:25.000 - 02:45:36.000

because I was just coming home every two or three weeks to change clothes. [laughs] Wash my clothes and change clothes and get some more outfits. But anyway, he called me up one day, and he says,

02:45:36.000 - 02:45:49.000

"You know, I'm sick and tired of just seeing you on weekends. Why don't you come home? Let's get married." I thought, well, maybe this was the time. My mother had passed away, and my sister had passed away,

02:45:49.000 - 02:46:00.000

and my kids were all over the country, and I thought maybe this would be a good time to come home. [audio cuts out] So you came home, and then you married him?

02:46:00.000 - 02:46:15.000

I married Francis Landluck, and this was his home. Did he also have children? He had nine children. They weren't too happy about their dad marrying me.

02:46:15.000 - 02:46:25.000

One of his friends said it wouldn't matter who we married. They didn't want anybody to marry. But he was a nice person. At that time, his eyesight wasn't that good, and he couldn't drive.

02:46:25.000 - 02:46:39.000

I guess he married me because I drove. [laughs] So we had a place in Arizona, and we'd go to Arizona for the winter and back here. Then eventually we'd travel to Italy. We had a marvelous, marvelous life together,

02:46:39.000 - 02:46:52.000

and I showed Marty places, and he met people he'd never dreamed of. We really had a good life, and I really showed him a good time because I really cared for Franny. How long did that last?

02:46:52.000 - 02:47:13.000

From '79, he died in '88--nine years. Then just before--I think it was October of '87-- I had a meeting of women pilots here. By this time, my Franny had Alzheimer's.

02:47:13.000 - 02:47:25.000

I wouldn't admit it, but I had to hold his hand almost 24 hours a day because he'd get away from me. He was a big man. He weighed about 200 pounds. Sometimes he'd fall, and I'd have to get him up.

02:47:25.000 - 02:47:39.000

I'd try to get him up by a chair. It just got pretty hard, and I didn't realize how it was wearing me down. My girls were coming here. They knew I couldn't go to them, so my women pilot--

02:47:39.000 - 02:47:55.000

I mean, the Class 44-1 came here. I had 13 of us, and most of them stayed. I had two, three, four, five--five of them here, and then the rest of them went to motels to stay.

02:47:55.000 - 02:48:13.000

We had a wonderful, wonderful time. I took them all around, but before--I back up a little bit. Now, I knew--I had heard they had a respite care up at the rest home. I knew that I'd catch Franny walking outside without any clothes on,

02:48:13.000 - 02:48:29.000

and I'd hurry to get him, because I had to wash clothes. I had to do other things besides take care of him. Well, it got so bad that I thought, well, for the time my friends are here, I couldn't have Franny here and enjoy myself

02:48:29.000 - 02:48:41.000

or even show my friends a good time. So I went up to the rest home and asked about respite care, and they said, well, yes, they did. I said, well, if you just keep him a week, then my friends will be gone,

02:48:41.000 - 02:48:52.000

and then I'll come back and get him. I saw him every day anyway, but he was happy. He'd visit with everybody. Of course, nobody knew what he was talking about,

02:48:52.000 - 02:49:02.000

but he was a very pleasant person. A lot of people get Alzheimer's get really, really nasty, but not him. He was a darling. Most kids would visit him up there.

02:49:02.000 - 02:49:13.000

Nobody wanted to take care of him for that week while I was up there, so I had to put him in the respite care. So my friends were here, and they said, "Geez, Betty, you're getting so darn skinny."

02:49:13.000 - 02:49:27.000

I was nervous, and they said, "You've got to take care of yourself." I said, "Well, my big concern is my husband. I have to take care of my Franny." So anyway, we had good times, and we went out to dinner, and we went out to the lake,

02:49:27.000 - 02:49:44.000

and I took them all over town, and we had a great time. Then when they left, they kept saying, "You've got to leave that man there. You've got to leave that man there." I said, "Well, I don't know. I've got to see first how he's doing."

02:49:44.000 - 02:49:57.000

So I went back up the rest of the way, and I went to see the gal, and I said, "Well, I'm here to take Franny home." They said, "Well, why don't you wait a couple of days?" They just left the day before.

02:49:57.000 - 02:50:11.000

"Why don't you leave him here a couple of days just to get you--you look pretty drawn." I said, "Well, all right, I'll leave him here another day." They said, "You know, he's here. He's being taken care of, and you can come and give him quality time."

02:50:11.000 - 02:50:28.000

They said, "We know what you've been doing at home, and we know it is not easy because we've had other people tell us what happens when you have Alzheimer's." So I said, "Well, I'll leave him in for two more days." So I went up there, and I saw how contented he was.

02:50:28.000 - 02:50:44.000

So when I went to see the gal about taking him home, she said, "You know, if you want to take him home because of you, that's your business, but if you're doing it because of your husband, he's happy here." She said, "You can come and give him quality time, or you cannot give him quality time at home

02:50:44.000 - 02:50:53.000

because you're hanging on to him all the time." And I realized that was true. I said, "Well, I'll leave him here another week." And he was so satisfied there. His kids would go see him.

02:50:53.000 - 02:51:13.000

Sometimes the kids wouldn't come here because they didn't care much for me. But the children would all go see him, and I saw that he was bingling with the people, and he'd go around and shake everybody's hand, and he was kind of in his own element. And he never, ever once said, "Bring me home, Liz."

02:51:13.000 - 02:51:33.000

But the day before he died, he looked into my eyes and took my hands, and he said, "I love you, Liz," and that's the last thing he's ever said to me. So that really pleased me to know to have him put my mind at ease because, you know, putting your husband in a rest home is not an easy situation.

02:51:33.000 - 02:51:43.000

But God was good. And your life went on. My life went on. I didn't go back to Arizona anymore that year, and he died.

02:51:43.000 - 02:52:01.000

It was from the fall when I put him in, October, until March, and he passed away. So God was good to take him. Then how did you spend your time? Well, then I--it was in '90.

02:52:01.000 - 02:52:11.000

My brother then came to live with me. My brother had cancer, and he came to live--because his wife was dead. And so my brother came to live with me. So you took care of somebody else.

02:52:11.000 - 02:52:30.000

Yeah, oh, but it was a pleasure to take care of my brother. So my brother came, and he stayed with me here, and then my sisters were in town, and they'd come and see him, but I had 24-hour. And toward the end, my brother had to be fed intravenously because he couldn't--

02:52:30.000 - 02:52:45.000

he had cancer of the throat. And so he--and his family, too. They were all working, and they couldn't--they had him in a rest home up there. Because I did go to Arizona with him 2 years,

02:52:45.000 - 02:53:05.000

and then it was in '91 that he didn't come with me, and then he got real ill that time. I went out to Arizona anyway, and my sister came with me. And then he got real ill in '91, and so then I had him living upstairs.

02:53:05.000 - 02:53:22.000

He was in my apartment. And then he got so sick, I had him come to my downstairs and stay here. And so then he passed away in about '95. My brother died.

02:53:22.000 - 02:53:38.000

And then eventually you met someone else. Well, then dancing in Arizona, I met this man I liked to dance to, Marty Strophus. And he was a good--I had no intention in the world of ever getting married again. I thought I'd been there and done that, and that's enough now.

02:53:38.000 - 02:53:51.000

Well, Marty--I met Marty. We danced together, had a good time, we'd go out to eat together. When it came so much, I didn't have a chance to go with any of the other men that I'd met out there. And then my sister came and stayed with me for a while.

02:53:51.000 - 02:54:07.000

My sister--then my Julianne came over, so I was never alone. One of my sisters were with me. And so that was '89 I was there. Well, then we got to thinking about it, and we thought, well--

02:54:07.000 - 02:54:27.000

He was coming back to--he lived in South Dakota, and his wife had died 2 years before. And he was just moving from some apartment to another place. And he said, "Well, you know, if I got married, then I could move right to Faribault." Oh, I don't know if I wanted to do that.

02:54:27.000 - 02:54:39.000

So I came home and thought about it. And I came over from Sioux Falls, and I thought, well, we may as well move here. So we got married--isn't that terrible? We got married in '91.

02:54:39.000 - 02:54:52.000

And he was a very nice person. I really enjoyed Marty. Well, then in '95--what was '95? '95, yeah, it was '95. Then I went to Arizona with Marty.

02:54:52.000 - 02:55:05.000

Then in '95, Marty had a blocked artery. He had that taken care of, but then he had another one. Then he went to the doctor, and the doctor said-- Oh, that day I found out I could go to the vet's clinic.

02:55:05.000 - 02:55:20.000

So I was at the vet's clinic that day. I'd just go and visit with my doctor. I liked her. She gave me medication for my bronchial problem, but she'd have me check in about every 3 or 4 months just to check in, say hello.

02:55:20.000 - 02:55:35.000

So I was up visiting with my doctor, and I got a call from home and here. I thought my brother--because my brother was so ill-- and they said no, that my husband Marty was being brought up to Abbott Northwest. So I went over there and met him.

02:55:35.000 - 02:55:51.000

He had heart surgery, four-way bypass. The surgery was successful. He had a stroke afterwards and never really became coherent again. He was in his own world, and then he died shortly thereafter.

02:55:51.000 - 02:56:04.000

And now, Betty, what makes you happy? Being alive. I just like being alive, and I am so grateful for my friends. I'm grateful for my aviation friends.

02:56:04.000 - 02:56:19.000

I'm grateful for my friend that comes over and takes me out to dinner. A little hug doesn't hurt, and I hug all my Confederate Air Force boys. I tell you, I'm having so much fun. I go give the Naval Aviation Association a program, and I'm a member.

02:56:19.000 - 02:56:31.000

I give the 8th Air Force a program, and I'm a member of their organization. I give the CAF programs, and I'm a member there. I have so many memberships in so many organizations, and then I belong to the 99 Organization.

02:56:31.000 - 02:56:42.000

I've been a member of that organization since 1945. And I know recently you've been inducted into something. Tell us about that. May I first tell you something else?

02:56:42.000 - 02:56:52.000

Sure. Okay. I was 12 years old, and I had the opportunity to be on stage with Adjutant General of the Air National Guard, Eugene Andriotti,

02:56:52.000 - 02:57:02.000

and we saw this great, beautiful F-16 out there, and he says, "Would you like to fly the F-16?" I said, "Of course," I said, "I would." I said, "You fellows wouldn't let me near one."

02:57:02.000 - 02:57:12.000

So we made arrangements. I didn't hear for two weeks. And finally he called me up, and he said, "You can fly the F-16. When would you like to go?"

02:57:12.000 - 02:57:18.000

I said, "Tomorrow." And so they made arrangements. I went up to Duluth, Minnesota. He said, "Well, you know, to tell you the truth," he said,

02:57:18.000 - 02:57:32.000

"when I got the call from the Pentagon, you see, I had to get permission from the Pentagon because civilians were not supposed to fly in the F-16, and not even women were supposed to fly in the F-16 at that time." And so he said, "Well, they called me from the Pentagon."

02:57:32.000 - 02:57:44.000

They said--I was only 71. He said, "Do you think this person could handle a flight in an F-16?" Because not only was I 71 years old, I was a woman. And my friend, the general, said, "I don't know anybody that could handle it

02:57:44.000 - 02:57:58.000

better not had gone if it killed me." I called my kids up the night before, and I said, "Your ma's going in an F-16 tomorrow?" And if something happened to me, I went the way I wanted to go. So I went in that flight in the F-16.

02:57:58.000 - 02:58:08.000

Oh, it was marvelous. They had all this media there. They had the radio, the television, the newspaper, and then other interested people who think this old lady's going to fly in the F-16.

02:58:08.000 - 02:58:15.000

First they're going to say they're going to fly me straight and level-- 20,000 feet just like that. He said, "What do you want to do?" And I said, "You said this baby could fly.

02:58:15.000 - 02:58:21.000

Show me," and he showed me. He knew maneuvers I didn't even know. Anyway, we really racked it through. And then he said, "Do you want to fly it?"

02:58:21.000 - 02:58:27.000

I said, "Sure." So he let me fly it. I just was going into a jungle-- four Gs like that.

02:58:27.000 - 02:58:36.000

My old G suit blew up like a balloon. And he said, "Hey, take it easy. I don't have the brown bag in front." And I said, "Honey, you can have mine because I don't need it."

02:58:36.000 - 02:58:44.000

It was a marvelous, marvelous time. We were only supposed to be up for an hour. I was up for over two hours. I loved it.

02:58:44.000 - 02:58:55.000

They said, "Didn't you get sick?" I never got sick in an airplane, as I say, not even my F-16. And I went six Gs, and I have a pen to prove it. I went six Gs.

02:58:55.000 - 02:59:04.000

And then I'm very, very fortunate. I do get programs in aviation. I get between 40, 50, sometimes 60 a year. I go to schools, organizations,

02:59:04.000 - 02:59:15.000

Confederate Air Force, the CAP-- I used to be a member of the Civil Air Patrol-- so I give the ROTC programs. I've even been to colleges to give the program to college.

02:59:15.000 - 02:59:24.000

I had a program not too long ago, and they just told me to come give a program. I went up there, and I thought it was going to be just a small group-- 650, oh, up at St. Cloud.

02:59:24.000 - 02:59:32.000

It was great. I don't care how many they have. Hand me a mic, it turns me on. Tell me about this award that you got.

02:59:32.000 - 02:59:42.000

Last year, my friend Cheryl Young, who really started me in this program, because she found out 10 years ago about women pilots, and we were not recognized in history books.

02:59:42.000 - 02:59:54.000

And she's really the one that started me on this wonderful, wonderful sentimental journey. And she said--2 years ago she said to the 99-- she said, "Liz should be in that Aviation Hall of Fame

02:59:54.000 - 03:00:16.000

"because of not only what she did before, but what she's doing now." She called me the ambassador in aviation. And she said not only what she's done during the war-- didn't get any admiration or any recognition for it that long ago--

03:00:16.000 - 03:00:26.000

and so I think that she should be in the Hall of Fame. So that started the ball rolling. And she said, "I'd do it, "but I think it's better coming from an organization."

03:00:26.000 - 03:00:36.000

So the 99s got together, and they nominated me for the Hall of Fame. Then my son got on the bandwagon, and he's the one that put that booklet together.

03:00:36.000 - 03:00:53.000

He put a booklet like that for the Aviation Hall of Fame program. I've been on a lot of air shows with Noel Allard, who was the president of the Aviation Hall of Fame, and with Sharon Bowen, who was another one of their big shots in aviation.

03:00:53.000 - 03:01:06.000

He was Mr. Aviation because he used to have a program every Sunday on aviation, and so he's really known as Mr. Aviation. So then the 8th Air Force got behind me, and my Confederate Air Force boys got behind me,

03:01:06.000 - 03:01:15.000

and the Naval Aviation got behind me, and all these other pilots got behind me, and by golly, they got me in. And what pleases me most about this

03:01:15.000 - 03:01:29.000

is that peers, my peers, my men of our generation that backed me up and said that I should be a member of that organization, that pleased me no end. I'm the only woman that was inducted--

03:01:29.000 - 03:01:41.000

I'm the only WASP that had been inducted in the state of Minnesota. There are two other women. One, she and her husband were airplane-- took care of an airfield up north in Minnesota.

03:01:41.000 - 03:01:53.000

Another woman was the secretary of the Aviation Hall of Fame. Another one was another woman. I was the fourth woman, and I'm telling you, I'm very proud to be a part of that aviation--

03:01:53.000 - 03:02:00.000

Would you like to take a picture of it? We will. Okay. And I'm very proud to be a part and be recognized

03:02:00.000 - 03:02:12.000

to be in the Minnesota Aviation Hall of Fame because I'm telling you, the people in there are all my heroes. I salute you. God bless you.

03:02:12.000 - 03:02:25.000

Let me ask you, Betty, certainly in life, we all have ups and downs and good times, bad times, happy times and sad times, and you've certainly had an overabundance of sad times.

03:02:25.000 - 03:02:41.000

What has gotten you through those sad times? If I didn't have my faith and family, I never would have made it. I tell you, my faith in God is strong, and I'm just grateful every day. I wake every day and say, "Thank you, God, for another day,"

03:02:41.000 - 03:02:52.000

because I know without our father up there looking down upon all of us, I know I couldn't have gone on. And my family have been my supporters. I'm very fortunate.

03:02:52.000 - 03:03:10.000

And the little work I have along the way, that's okay too. What do you feel will be the legacy of the WASP? Well, I hope they look on our WASP program as the beginning. I am not a feminist in the firm sense of the word

03:03:10.000 - 03:03:26.000

because I believe I like to be treated like a lady. I don't want to be the one to open up doors for men or anything else, and I like to be recognized as a lady. And I don't like to see women being parents all by themselves.

03:03:26.000 - 03:03:45.000

That's my opinion because I feel that-- well, I just feel that being a woman is such an important part in life, and being a mother--I've had the best of all worlds. I've been a wife, a mother.

03:03:45.000 - 03:03:59.000

I'm proud to have that MRS in front of my name, but I am also proud that we were the first ones to fly military aircraft. I'm proud that we opened the doors for our women of today-- the astronauts, the commercial airline pilots,

03:03:59.000 - 03:04:11.000

the women who are equipped and able and capable of flying airplanes and doing anything they want to do--mechanics, whatever-- because an airplane doesn't say--a male or a female says, "Can you handle me, baby?"

03:04:11.000 - 03:04:22.000

That's my idea--to help the women of today do the things they're doing. I'm proud of that. My next question was going to be, what is the one thing that you are most proud of?

03:04:22.000 - 03:04:35.000

I think you've already answered it. Thank you. And now I would like to ask you--or like to give you the opportunity to speak to children, to your grandchildren or great-grandchildren

03:04:35.000 - 03:04:57.000

or children that you don't know or ever will know, a future generation. If you would like to say something to them that might encourage them and give them some hope for the future, what would you like to say to them? I'd like to say to them what I say to every one of the students that I speak to.

03:04:57.000 - 03:05:08.000

I say to follow your dreams. It's so important to do what you want to do as long as it isn't illegal or immoral. And be the best you can, whatever you're doing.

03:05:08.000 - 03:05:22.000

I don't care if you're a garbage distributor or whatever they call it. Just be the best, whatever you do, be the best you can because that's important. And you know, life is beautiful. So is she.

03:05:22.000 - 03:05:36.000

And so are you. This has been an absolute delight. And Nancy will ask me to ask you, what is your favorite word? Besides God.

03:05:36.000 - 03:05:46.000

It could be--no, not besides God. What is your favorite word? My favorite word is, "Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, help me through the day." God bless you.

03:05:46.000 - 03:05:53.000

God bless you. And thank you. And thank you, ladies. I am so proud of what you're doing for all our veterans.

03:05:53.000 - 03:06:06.000

It's a wonderful, wonderful thing what you're doing. And I hope that it is most successful. And with women like you behind you, it's got to be. If I won the lottery and you had a million dollars, I'd give you half of it.

03:06:06.000 - 03:06:11.000

[laughter] And you know what? I believe you. It's the truth.

03:06:11.000 - 03:06:17.000

I know. That's why I believe you. This has been a joy. It really has.

03:06:17.000 - 03:06:25.000

I wish everyone could hear you. You've got the stuff. You've got the stuff. The right stuff.

03:06:25.000 - 03:06:32.000

[laughter] What happened to her bike? Okay. Here it is.

03:06:32.000 - 03:06:37.000

It's still clipped on. Oh, it's clipped on my tie. It's still clipped on you. I didn't go high enough.

03:06:37.000 - 03:06:43.000

I just feel I would like to see you eat. Such a darling. Oh, we'll probably eat on the way. We'll probably eat on the way out.

03:06:43.000 - 03:06:54.000

You've got to make a phone call at 2. Right, and it's 115. We have several. I need you to sign a release that gives Baylor the permission to use what we've done today.

03:06:54.000 - 03:06:56.000

It does not keep you from--