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One of us. (beep) - Well, I am now rolling. I'm Deanie Parish, and we're in the home

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of Elizabeth Pfister in Aspen, Colorado. Today is the 10th of September, 2000. Okay, Betty, would you tell us who you are, where and when you were born, and about your parents?

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- Well, I was born in Great Neck, New York, July-- - Tell me who you are. - Oh, I'm Betty Hawes Pfister. Nobody ever calls me Elizabeth.

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I was born in Great Neck, New York, on July 23, 1921. I got that mixed up. Kelly: And your parents? Beall: My mom and dad.

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You want their names? My dad's name was Bob Haas, and my mother's name was Merle, M-e-r-l-e. I was the middle child of three children. Kelly: Tell us about your siblings.

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Bell: My brother was a year older. When I was in the WASP, he was flying in the Navy and unfortunately was killed when he was twenty-one. It was a catapult failure.

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The vehicle was off the end of the deck and the ship ran over them. My sister was and is, she is still alive, three years younger. She did not become a pilot until about maybe twenty-five years ago, something like that. Where did you start school?

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Started school in Scarsdale, New York, and was there for quite a while. Then went to boarding schools in Pennsylvania, and then I went to Bennington College in Vermont. When you were in grammar school and in early junior high and high school, what were your vacations like?

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I do not know. I guess just with my family and having a good time and not worrying about school for a while. In elementary school, do you remember any of your teachers? Not a one.

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Do you tell us about some of the things that you did for playtime when you were a child? Steele: Well, we had a pony. I know that. A pony named Starlight.

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We all loved to ride her. I cannot think of anything very unique. Kelly: When you went into junior high, what were your ambitions? I can't remember any of those either.

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Kelly: When you went on into high school, do you remember any of those teachers that might have influenced you? Steele: Not really. Kelly: What was your favorite subject in school?

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Steele: Literature, I think, was my most favorite. Do you remember any of your social activities when you were in junior high? Not particularly. When you were in high school, were you in other things other than just academics?

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Were you in speech or debate club? I remember playing field hockey at school. I was a goalie. was not too enviable a position.

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And, oh, I don't know. Home Quiz School, I went there three years, a high school, and that I loved. It was a very small, maybe only 60 or 70 girls.

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And then I moved from there. The last two years of high school, I went to George School in Newtown, PA, and it was co-ed. And I didn't, it was a much bigger school,

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which was my parents' idea, so that I would not go from this little tiny cocoon sort of into a bigger college without something in the middle. But I did not like George School at all. Kelly: Tell me about when you left home to go to Homequest School.

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What were your feelings? Was that a big adjustment for you? Beall: Not really. It was such a small school, and I made friends right away and had a really good time there.

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Where did you live when you were going to school there? Steele: Oh, at the school. Kelly: Were you in a dormitory? Steele: Yes.

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Kelly: Do you remember any of those classmates? Have you remained friends with any of your classmates? Steele: I actually have not kept up with anyone from either school. Kelly: When you were growing up, what was your dad doing?

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Steele: He was a publisher, book publisher. Kelly: When you went to the George School, where did you live? Kelly: Have you remained friends with any of those classmates? Beall: No.

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Kelly: Who were your role models? Beall: Wow, I can't remember having any. These are all pretty negative answers. Kelly: That's okay.

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Tell me about your grandparents. Beall: I guess I only—I'm trying to think if I knew. My father's parents were dead when I was born. My mother had a father who was alive.

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I can remember him. I forgot to mention that when I was at Bennington, I had a pet lamb. I remember coming home and going through the station. She had a little leash and a collar.

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And then going to Grandpa's apartment, where she probably misbehaved on his nice red carpet. That was later, though, when I was at Bennington. Kelly: When you were in private school in Holmquist and then in George School, what were your summers?

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Did you go home for summer? Steele: Oh, sure. We summered almost all the time in Arlington, Vermont. My folks had a summer place there.

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My sister still uses it every summer. Kelly: What did you enjoy doing at the summer place? We did some horseback riding, we did some fly fishing, a lot of picnics. Just relaxing and having a good time.

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Kelly: In high school, tell me about your prom. Klemski: I do not even remember. Nothing seems to have made much of a dent until I got to Bennington. Kelly: Right.

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Do you remember your graduation from high school? What was that like? Yes, we had to wear white dresses, of course, and a boy and a girl would walk in together, and then I think we were seated separately.

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It was a little processional and nothing too earth-shattering. Kelly: Why did you choose Bennington? Beall: Well, I was going to go to Vassar, and I was entered and accepted, and I had some really good friends that were going to go there.

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Oh, I remember now because Dorothy Canfield Fisher, who was an author, had sold my parents this place in Arlington. It had joined her property. So she said she was horrified.

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Bennington had just started. I might have been in the seventh class or tenth class, something like that. It was very new, very small, kind of very different sort of college as opposed to Smith and Vassar and Wellesley and more traditional.

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And so she took me down to visit the campus one day and talk to some of the admittance people. This was maybe a month before college started, and I just loved it. They took me because I was kind of weird, and they took sort of weird people.

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I was the sort of person, and I think these are the students they were looking for, who might flunk three subjects. You couldn't pass English or whatever it would be, but your whole mission or goal in life was, "Why does a certain bug have red eyes?"

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If you're getting straight A's in science or biology, you're a Bennington type. You could flunk other things. Where Vassar and those other colleges wanted, someone more well-balanced. Where did your siblings go to school?

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My brother went to Yale, and then went right from Yale into the Navy. My sister went to Smith, and she was still at Smith when I was at Sweetwater. Kelly: On vacations from Bennington, would you go to the summer home? Steele: Yes.

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Kelly: While you were at Bennington, have you kept up with any of those classmates? Steele: One of them turned out to be just about my best friend, went in the WASP also, And she died quite a long time ago. I think she had cancer.

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She's the one I had my first airplane ride with. Kelly: When you entered Bennington, what were your goals? Steele: I think I wanted to be a science major, a marine biology major. I started out in literature, and I had a counselor I met with every week.

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And he's quite a famous poet, actually. And he just couldn't get way down to my level and I couldn't, there was no middle ground, I couldn't even begin to understand him. I remember when I was in high school, I was the shining light of my English class.

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My teacher thought I was marvelous and wrote A+ on, you know, they'd assign me five pages and I'd write 50. And there's a big difference between the standards there and at college. So I switched to social studies and that didn't work out.

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And then I got into science and that's where I should be. Kelly: Do you remember any outstanding teachers that might have guided you at Bennington? Steele: Yes, Mr. Woodward was one and a Mr.—I think his name was Whittingill, something like that.

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Kelly: While you were in college, did you have other activities other than just academics? Bleasdale: Oh, sure. We did sports. Kelly: Tell me about some of the sports.

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Bleasdale: Learned to ski. And Kip, my good friend and I, bought a Model T Ford for about $25. And all I remember is going up to our place in Arlington, it did much better backwards and forwards, it had more power.

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So we'd just get in reverse and went up this really long hill, and we'd get there. We had a really good time. Kelly: And the sports activities, were you on a team? Was it a team sport?

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Beall: No. Kelly: All individual? Beall: I did some field hockey, but I think that was at George School. In looking back, when did you—do you remember that you became first interested in an airplane?

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Steele: Yes, they had a very small little air show that came to the Bennington Airport. What I do remember clearly is that was what they call "parents weekend." My parents had driven up from New York to see me. As we drove into the college, we could see the activity at the airport.

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My mom and dad made me promise that under no circumstances would I go near an airplane. "Oh, yes, Mom, I'll be happy to abide by that." As soon as I saw their car go down the hill, Kip and I—I think we had bicycles at that time—we went out to the airport.

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Between us, we had just enough money to get one of those short rides they were giving. Kip liked it, but I was absolutely ecstatic about it. I called my mom and dad that night and I said, "I'm going to leave college tomorrow." Of course, they just about dropped the phone.

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I think that was in our freshman year. They wanted to know why, and I told them. My dad said, "Promise me one thing that you won't make a move until I come up and see you and we talk about this."

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The next day, he got on a train. I think it was about a four or five-hour trip. He came up from New York and I still remember sitting in this big field with him. This wasn't "I'd like to learn to fly just for something to do."

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It was, "That's what I want to do with my life." I knew it right then. There wasn't any question. So Dad and I arrived at what I thought was a very good compromise.

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I still think so today. He said if I would stay in college and make good grades, that he and my mom would pay for flying lessons. I could do as much as I could manage to.

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And Bennington probably had three little Cubs parked there. It was barely an airstrip. So I went to Troy, New York, and then I also flew in Bridgeport, Connecticut. I guess my first flights and where I soloed were in Bridgeport.

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Kelly: And in order to take these lessons, did you do it after school? Did you do it on vacation? little of everything. And I can still remember from Scarsdale where we were living driving up to Bridgeport if I recall was a good hour drive maybe more

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than that. And some days I'd be scheduled to fly at say 10 in the morning and the weather was perfect it changes about as fast as it does here and I get up there and the wind picked up and way too much for a new student pilot to fly so I'd have some ground school and turn around and go home.

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So quite a lot of time was wasted on the road, but it was a very good airport. Kelly: When you first began to fly, did your parents come up to watch you fly? Healyer: Never. After I got my license, in fact, it was after the WASP, one of the WASP and I who were very

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good friends, her name is Gloria Heath, and she is never married. She and I kept buying AT-6s. I think we owned five of them. We kept one for ourselves.

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We made just about enough profit on each one. We would buy them for, say, $1,500 from the military. And then, we would get them all spiffied up. I think we made about $500 on each one when we sold it.

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Kelly: While you were at Bennington, did you get a letter from someone very special? Steele: You talking about Jackie Cochran? Yes, definitely. A telegram, as I recall.

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It wasn't a letter. I think we got a wire, or I did at least. She had gotten the list of all women pilots from the—at the time it was the CAA in Washington, Not the FAA, but same idea.

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I do not know how many of us were on that list, but everybody who had a private license or better. I was one of those. She wired that if I would be interested in a training program very close to what the

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men cadets had, I think to wire back was wire a telephone. Boy, I had that in the return telegraph so fast, you cannot believe it. I want to back up a moment and ask you if you remember where you were and how you felt when you heard about Pearl Harbor.

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Not really. And I wanted to ask you, too, when you were growing up, what was a Christmas like at your home? Always fun, lots of presents, just generally a good holiday.

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Would you have relatives come, or was it just your immediate family? Some relatives, but we're a very small family. It's sort of peculiar. My mother and her sister married Dad and his brother.

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So I have sort of double first cousins, but we're all right, all right, all right. Now I will catch up where I was. you got the telegram from Ms. Cochran and answered it, then what happened? Then I believe, it may have been more telegrams or letters, I'm not sure, that she said,

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and I can't remember, I think I have that telegram stored somewhere, but I'm not sure. I believe she said that I would be eligible to, that probably was in November or December, I didn't have to wait very long, because those earlier classes, they were scratching for people with a private or better.

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I don't know what the minimum hours were then. I'm really not sure. But anyway, she said that I could go in the class of W-4, which was going to be the first class at Sweetwater.

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Kelly: Did you know other girls who received telegrams? Bowditch: Not at the time. How did you hear that? I can't remember if it was a letter or a telegram.

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What did your mother and dad think about that? They were kind of in favor. They knew how much I loved to fly, and they wanted me to do what I could for the war effort. Tell me what you did about college.

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That was a bit of a problem, because they weren't used to having people graduate early. I didn't want to wait until June. I wanted to get in as soon as I could. The powers that be at Bennington finally decided that as long as I would get my requirements

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and there was a thesis and some other things turned in by the time I—by February when I reported to Sweetwater that I could just hustle through those last months. I didn't have to physically stay there at the college, and I met the requirements for graduation.

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Did they give you your diploma at that time, or did they send it later? They sent it later, and I've always been unhappy about the fact that I wasn't doing a single thing at Sweetwater. I was literally sitting there, way behind my class, just hopeless to try and catch up,

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And way ahead of W-5, which is where I ended up, because you can always jump ahead. But anyhow, Ms. Cochran, I asked her if I could go back at my own expense to Bennington to be with my classmates and graduate. She said no.

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For what reason, I have no idea. So I just sat in Sweetwater when graduation was happening in Vermont. I was not too happy about it. When you went to Sweetwater for training, how did you get from Bennington to Sweetwater?

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Tell me about that trip. Well, I probably went from Scarsdale. I went from Bennington home to get packed and organized. And I'm trying to think.

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I'm sure I went on a train. Almost sure. There were not too many airline flights in those days. I am now rolling again.

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I'm going to walk in front of the camera and move this real quick while we're still rolling. You can go ahead and ask your question. Kelly: Give me your first impressions of Sweetwater and Avenger Field. What was it like?

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Steele: Well, it was dusty. It was—I don't remember any temperature thing. We were all in our civilian clothes, of course. We hadn't met our first zoot suit at that time.

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It was something I was just really excited and looking forward to, the flight training. I remember the Blue Bonnet Hotel and Sweetwater and Lake Sweetwater. Ta-da! Versus a six-hour drive to Vernal, Utah.

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Kelly: Oh, wow. Wow. Okay. We are rolling.

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Tell me about your first impressions of the air base. Well, there were a lot of airplanes there. If I recall correctly, the first members of 43-4 that had been at Houston had ferried, I think it was the PT-19s, which looked enormous to me.

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At that time, all I had flown were little Cubs and Tailor Crafts. I think they ferried them up there, maybe some of the BTs even, for basic training. It was just lovely to look out and see all these airplanes parked on the ramp. I was just very excited about the whole—I was thrilled to death to be there.

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Can you describe what your quarters were like? Yes, I lived in a bay with five other girls. There were six to a bay, I think. Then we shared a bathroom with a bay on the other side, and there were something like

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two showers and two or three basins. I do not quite remember, a couple of toilets, of course. What was the biggest adjustment that you had to make? One total lack of privacy, day and night, which was not an important item in my life.

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For some of the girls, it was a really terrible shock to have a constant parade of whether you are trying to study or taking a shower or whatever you were doing. There were always other women or girls, as we thought we were at the time, around. Kelly: Tell me about your baymates.

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Steele: One of them, I had a really good bunch of baymates. Quite a few washed out, actually, during training. In fact, there was one bed in the corner, finally nobody would sleep in it, because we had about two or three in a row.

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That bed had nothing to do with the bed, of course, but we got kind of superstitious. One of them was Hazel Lee, who was a Chinese girl, and she was killed in a P-63 in Romulus. They had a mid-air coming in on final, a radio communications problem. And then I had—oh, I've forgotten the names of a couple of others, but I could pick

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them out of the roster immediately. I had Mary Amanda Bowles was one. We all came from very different backgrounds, and I'd say we all got along extremely well. Tell me about your schedule.

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Well, I know Alice Jean May, who was not in my bay, could play the trumpet. She would go outside in her pajamas every morning. I don't know how she got up so early, something like 6.30 or maybe 6 o'clock. She would play Reveille on the trumpet, and boy, you could hear that up and down the line

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of bays. We were pretty heavily scheduled. We had something like fifteen minutes to have our beds made absolutely perfectly the Army way.

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You were supposed to be able to drop a quarter on the blanket and see it bounce. Our lockers, we could only have just a very few things, a couple of pairs of shoes and our zoot suits, and they had to be hung just a certain way. They were meticulous about it.

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Then we would have a white glove inspection, I do not remember if it was once a week. The major would come in and run his finger along the top of the locker and the windowsill, and if there was any dust, we would get demerits. They were very definite about the rules.

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What were your expectations while you were in training, as far as after you graduated? Steele: I definitely wanted to be in the Ferry Command. I decided the most ideal assignment you could have, and I picked Wilmington as my first choice, which I received and later regretted.

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I did that because it was near where my family lived. Kelly: Tell me about ground school. Lots and lots of ground school, very tough but very fair, kind of a real challenge. I didn't just sail through everything by any means, but it was nothing beyond my capability

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either when I worked. We also had link training, of course. Kelly: Describe for me your first solo flight at Avenger. Do you remember?

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I don't remember that. The only thing, two things are outstanding memories of Avenger. One was my first night solo in a basic trainer. And it's the only time, I would say in my entire flying life, that I didn't think

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I was ready. And the instructor sort of pushed me into it. I said, "I need some more dual." I don't remember without looking at a logbook how much time I'd had.

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Not over maybe three to five hours, very little relatively, in this huge big airplane. I think the difference between primary trainer and basic is much more of a difference than going from basic to advanced. I mean, advanced you get your retractable gear and so forth, but even so, I forget,

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one was 450 horsepower, I think, in basic, and the other was 650. But the jump into that BT was, "Oh, are we expected to—" I did fine in the daytime, but I wasn't ready for that night solo. I was crying so hard I could hardly see the runway.

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And then when I got up in the air, we had total power failure, because one of the other trainees on her first solo hit a power line. She wasn't hurt, but it knocked off all the power for the whole base and quite a ways around there.

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So that wasn't too much fun, being up there with nothing but my own lights. How were you brought in to land? They had light guns in the tower. Describe for me flying out of the auxiliary fields.

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Well I just know we did it quite a lot, and they'd take us out there, usually in the airplane that we were going to fly. I don't remember going by truck or by car at all. Maybe we did some.

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Do you remember any time while you were in training that you were really afraid? That night's solo. That night's solo. And then we also, then my other very earth-shattering experience, and oddly enough, they were both

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on first solos. Maybe that's true of a lot of other pilots, I don't really know. solo in the UC-78 or AT-17, and it was with a girl named Ginny Wilson, I'll never forget that. Our instructor in advance was named Sam Ward, and he only had, I think, three

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students instead of the usual four or five, because he was sort of a supervisor of instructors. He was a level above the others, and he had so much to do that he could only have three students. What happened was, he flew with each of us.

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We would trade seats, and he flew with each of us, oh, I can't remember, just again a couple of hours, a very small amount of time. But here we have two of everything, and it was a very easy plane to fly. So he checked the fuel and said we were fine.

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He wanted each of us to fly about an hour and then come in and trade seats and then come in and land. So away we went, and we got north of Sweetwater, maybe flew for ten minutes. An engine quit.

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The one thing he had told us over and over was, "Don't pull an engine," as it was called, "on each other. You don't have enough time to do that yet. When you get more instruction, then we'll get into it."

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He had done it on us just to show us how nicely it would fly in one engine. I was flying. We flipped a coin and I got the first left seat. I was furious at Ginny.

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I thought, "Boy, I don't like this at all." He had told us not to do it. I turned and looked at her and, boy, she was white as a sheet. There were about three things she could have done.

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She could have cut the fuel off. She could have pulled the mixture control. I thought there was another, but I had forgotten. Anyway, it was clear she hadn't done anything.

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I had a lot of altitude and I thought everything was going to be just fine. Got it all trimmed up on one engine and turned around very fast to get back to the Avenger. We got coming in on final and all of a sudden the other engine quit. Suddenly we're just a glider up there.

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So I pulled the gear up and I had everything ready for landing. Then we were going to go hit this huge bank of rocks. Everything on top of it was nice dirt. It wasn't all runway, but it was all very level.

00:30:02.580 - 00:30:13.840

If we'd ever hit the rocks, that was going to be the end. I kept slowing it up and slowing it up, pulling. We made a belly landing just on the flat part. We just barely got over the rocks.

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Two girls and an instructor had been killed the day before in my class. And also a brand new flight surgeon, who had unfortunately been there about a week. So his first week he gets three fatalities, and he gets very—it was a non-fixable airplane. And just by sheer luck, that was not skill, I still think.

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Neither one of us even needed a Band-Aid. We were not hurt in any way. They whipped the ambulance out. They made us go to the base hospital, or whatever it was called, and checked us out.

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We landed more softly on the belly than most of my wheel landings, but the plane was a total wreck. The interesting part was, that's the only accident I've ever had in my life, and it was a pretty good one.

00:31:05.700 - 00:31:27.560

But they had an inquiry or inquest, whatever you call it, after every accident to decide whether it was pilot error. What had happened was that they had a new line boy who had been out fueling the airplanes. He fueled seven of them and then went back to fill up the truck.

00:31:28.540 - 00:31:46.340

Instead of starting on number eight, he started on number nine. We'll say we were the number eight one. Our gauges were notoriously bad, these electric gauges. So Mr. Ward, our teacher, instructor, had checked the fuel gauges very carefully, but

00:31:46.340 - 00:31:57.060

he didn't, and neither did we. Which it says in the manual, you should take the gas cap off and put a stick in there and really check that out. Never occurred to us to do it.

00:31:57.100 - 00:32:07.300

I don't think we'd ever seen anybody do it. So that was it. We could believe that it was, I think, over five minutes from the time the first one quit to the second.

00:32:08.740 - 00:32:19.240

They tried to make a plane do that. They cut one engine when they had a lot of altitude, and they never got another one to do it. But that was, oddly enough, exactly what caused ours.

00:32:20.200 - 00:32:27.940

So I didn't get pilot error. I got maybe five percent because I didn't use a stick. That was it. Interviewer - Were you called before the board?

00:32:28.090 - 00:32:37.320

Lee - Oh yeah, definitely. I was a pilot in command at that time. I was afraid I'd get kicked out. This was maybe two weeks before graduation, something like that.

00:32:38.720 - 00:32:47.760

Kelly: Tell me, who was on the board? Do you remember? Steele: Oh, no. I'm sure it was a commanding officer, maybe his associates.

00:32:49.100 - 00:33:04.380

I don't know. Kelly: Were the two of you brought in together, or did you testify separately? Steele: I can't remember how we testified, but I know they checked any two. Then years and years later, I was in New York at a big aviation meeting, I think it was

00:33:04.420 - 00:33:21.080

at the Wings Club. I was one of their guest speakers. There were maybe four or five speakers. After we'd finished dessert and the speeches were over, this girl came up to me and I thought

00:33:21.140 - 00:33:31.220

something about her looked really familiar. She said, "Do you remember me?" This was years later. I said, "Well, I know I know you, but I can't put a name."

00:33:31.220 - 00:33:45.500

And she said, "I'm Ginny Wilson. I was your co-pilot when we had this big accident." That's the only time I've ever seen her, and I believe she's passed away now. Kelly: Just from natural causes?

00:33:45.570 - 00:33:58.920

Lowry: Yes. Kelly: The day before, I was going to ask about the crash the day before. Oh, it was—Sype and Severson were their names. They were both in W-5.

00:33:58.980 - 00:34:11.960

I was in W-5 at that point. I was in the middle of basic training, as I remember, when I went home when my brother was killed. And so I had to catch up with basic training, but I was way ahead of the girls in W-5, and

00:34:11.960 - 00:34:27.780

that's where they put me. I was going to ask you about how you were put back into the next class. As my brother was killed, he was a Navy pilot, and so I immediately went home and was with my family.

00:34:27.920 - 00:34:48.520

My mother was taking it, well, mother and dad both, extremely hard. He was the oldest one, he was the only boy. I had a bad cold, if I recall. I was flying on the airline, some unpressurized, maybe a C-47 DC-3.

00:34:50.320 - 00:35:04.660

Then my ears got all messed up, and so I had to stay home until that got good enough to fly back to Texas. So when I got back there, as I say, there was no way I could catch up with W-4 in flight hours.

00:35:04.770 - 00:35:15.240

I mean, they had everything very scheduled. When you went into the Wasp, was your brother already in the Navy? Yes. How did he feel about you?

00:35:15.780 - 00:35:32.580

Oh, I think he was delighted. When you were put back into the other guys? The worst part of that was that we in W-4, I must say, had been very hateful to W-5, because we were the first ones there.

00:35:33.280 - 00:35:43.540

We were not really nice about it at all. We would wait until they got in the shower and covered with soap, and then we would turn their water off. We were trying to do some of the things that we heard the boys were doing, the men were

00:35:43.620 - 00:35:53.100

doing in the way of hazing. I never knew what that even meant, but it always sounded like fun. We were not a bit nice. They get their bed all made for inspection, and we go in and tear it apart.

00:35:54.260 - 00:36:10.780

Did terrible things. So they didn't like W-4 very understandably, and all of a sudden there I am in the middle of these ladies that I hadn't been a bit friendly with. Kelly: Let me ask you about your quarters when you were put back into W-5.

00:36:10.880 - 00:36:16.920

Did you have to change bays? Steele: I can't remember. I can't remember that. I'm not sure.

00:36:17.220 - 00:36:36.680

Tell me about any cross-countries you might have had in training. We went to Abilene, we went to Midland, we went to Breckenridge. Almost anything you can think of on the map with Sweetwater as the center, the radius of the circle.

00:36:37.290 - 00:36:48.200

Was that after you got into advanced or earlier? No, I think we had basic training cross-countries, too. And then a lot of instrument training, and some in the link trainer, and some with a hood.

00:36:49.280 - 00:37:04.060

We take turns, one of us in the back seat and the person up front with a hood on. Tell me what graduations were like before you graduated. What would you—would you be involved? Oh, yes.

00:37:04.120 - 00:37:18.780

They had all the classes that were there at the base involved. We'd wear what we called our "general's pants," these tan pants, white shirts. We didn't have our blue outfits at that time. That came, I can't remember when, but quite a bit later.

00:37:20.480 - 00:37:38.080

And we'd have a couple of visiting generals, and Miss Cochran would usually be there, and dignitaries and a band from maybe Midland or somewhere would come over and play, the Air Force band. Kelly: Of the training planes that you flew, what was your favorite?

00:37:38.280 - 00:37:49.300

Reed: Oh, the T-6. For all of us, I think. And of the maneuvers that you did, what did you enjoy the most? I was never crazy about aerobatics.

00:37:49.490 - 00:38:02.960

In fact, if I were flying today, I've done all I ever want to, being inverted and snap rolls and that kind of thing. It was okay. I didn't mind them too much, and we didn't do a lot, but actually the instructors, there

00:38:02.960 - 00:38:23.640

was no reason to teach us a lot of that. Can you describe for me what the mess hall was like and the food? I think we were just hungry all the time, because we were working so hard. We also had physical training, and a lot of jumping jacks and bouncing up and down, and

00:38:25.120 - 00:38:36.940

all kinds of things. I thought the food was good, as I recall, and certainly plenty of it. That's all I remember. Tell me about your graduation.

00:38:38.960 - 00:38:51.220

Well, it was just the same as the ones before it, with visiting dignitaries and getting our wings. I can't remember who pinned my wings on or gave me my wings. Can you describe your wings?

00:38:52.260 - 00:39:08.600

Well, I actually have two. I have one of the 43W-5 with a little shield in the 43-5 engraved. And then I have, I can't remember later, I got one with that kind of diamond-shaped lozenge in the middle.

00:39:09.540 - 00:39:20.220

I don't remember when we got that. Do you remember how you felt when you received your orders? Did you get it on the day of graduation, or when did you get orders? I don't remember.

00:39:20.880 - 00:39:31.420

Do you remember how you felt? I was pleased I got my first choice. Were there other of your classmates who were also assigned to Wilmington with you? Oh yeah.

00:39:33.920 - 00:39:50.660

After graduation, how did you get home? I suppose on a train. During training, when you had some time off, what did you do? Well, we used to go to Sweetwater Lake,

00:39:51.460 - 00:40:11.180

or we'd go into the Blue Bonnet Hotel in town. And there was a small problem that happened to me during training, one of my baymates and I decided we needed a car. We got one of the guards, and I think we gave him $400, as I recall, $200 each, which was

00:40:11.260 - 00:40:27.480

quite a bit then, to go to Dallas and purchase a car for us, because we thought we just couldn't stand being on the base all the time. We did, and he brought back this little black truck, which is kind of a long story. I don't know whether you want to hear it or not.

00:40:28.620 - 00:40:38.360

Well, anyway, he brought the little truck back. It had white sidewall tires. It was just exactly what we wanted. He stayed in our budget, and that was just fine.

00:40:39.380 - 00:40:57.880

The next day was Saturday, and we didn't get a chance to put a license plate on it, because that could only happen on Monday through Friday. It must have had some kind of a plate, I suppose. Anyhow, my bae-bae's name was Mary, and so Mary had a pistol.

00:40:58.080 - 00:41:13.480

Why, I don't know. We both had been around firearms enough to be very careful. We also decided that we needed something to drink, something alcoholic. Somehow the word got out with the instructors that we were going to Big Springs, which was

00:41:13.500 - 00:41:26.900

the nearest place that you could buy any booze. Each instructor, not each, but a great many of them, I would guess at least ten, came to us. We had gas rationing then, and somehow Mary had coupons.

00:41:27.460 - 00:41:43.080

So we were pretty well equipped. The instructors, one of them would say, "I'd like four bottles of scotch." They'd give us the money, and the next one wanted two bottles of gin. As long as we were going to go over there and go shopping, everybody had their request.

00:41:44.400 - 00:42:01.620

We didn't dare say no, because they were our instructors. We hadn't been there very long, and thought we'd better go along with whatever they wanted. About halfway to Big Springs, we decided to go up a hill, park the car, and went up a hill and play with Nancy.

00:42:06.740 - 00:42:25.800

We decided that it would be fun to do a little target shooting with Nancy's pistol. Up the hill we went and we found, I don't remember what it was, but some piece of wood or something to shoot at. All of a sudden we just happened to glance down at the highway and there's no trees in

00:42:25.840 - 00:42:39.160

that part of Texas, so it isn't too hard to see. We saw a police car parked right next to our little truck. I think there were two highway patrolmen, as we said later, swarming over our poor little truck.

00:42:39.960 - 00:42:57.880

So we went down the hill as fast as we could to see what their problem was. This was on the way to Big Springs. I believe the reason they stopped was because we didn't have a license plate on the truck. That in itself is illegal.

00:42:59.000 - 00:43:10.060

We explained that we had just gotten it the day before from Dallas and we would have the plate on Monday. They said fine and they went away. They also, oh, they wanted to know who we were and where we were.

00:43:10.240 - 00:43:25.840

We said we were brand new trainees at Avenger. And anyhow, we went off to Big Springs. It was one of the hottest days you could imagine. We spent the whole day going from one liquor store to another to fill every instructor's

00:43:26.040 - 00:43:43.040

order. I think Mary and I each had one bottle a piece for ourselves. And anyhow, the police knew the minute they found out we were trainees and Big Springs nearest place that sold alcohol.

00:43:43.360 - 00:44:04.240

They were pretty sure you wouldn't go there for any other reason. That night on the way back, they kind of laid a trap for us. We got rid of, I don't know, maybe half of the bottles at one instructor's house. He had said that he would take the ones that belonged to a certain bunch of the others.

00:44:04.820 - 00:44:20.180

We had a pretty good load in that little truck. I don't know if there were fifty bottles or seventy. I know there was a case of beer in the back. Right outside the turn that went to Avenger Field, there goes a police car with the sirens

00:44:20.340 - 00:44:30.920

and the lights and pulled us over. There wasn't much we could say. They just found—I don't know, if we had fifty bottles on board, we only should have had two.

00:44:31.020 - 00:44:42.200

It was a huge difference. They said they would have to put us in jail. I was 21 years old and never been really away from my family except college, and that was pretty different.

00:44:45.020 - 00:44:56.640

They said, "Now, I can't remember the bail. I think it was $500." They also said that if one of us wanted to take all the blame, the other one could go back to the base and get the money.

00:44:57.940 - 00:45:13.460

We'd all just been repaid for our travel expense to get there. With five baymates, I think each one could have popped $100 and Mary was supposed to go back and get the money for me and get me out of there. But what happened was that she ended up being a few minutes late.

00:45:13.540 - 00:45:25.580

We had to be on base by 10 p.m. In time she finished talking to the police and I don't know why did I, I can't remember if I volunteered to be the one to stay in jail. It was very definite that she could get the money and be right back.

00:45:26.520 - 00:45:38.020

Well guess what? She got caught getting late onto the base. So she never got back. And then I think she got very upset, and so the guard at the gate wanted to know why was

00:45:38.100 - 00:45:52.800

she late and why was I not there at all. And she told him where I was. And so the commanding officer, who didn't think this was a bit—I guess maybe he thought it was funny later, but boy, he didn't with me.

00:45:53.830 - 00:46:07.540

And he came down to bail me out. He had had men cadets for, I do not know how long, maybe six months. The men got in quite a lot of trouble, almost all the time. Now he was going to have girls.

00:46:07.680 - 00:46:22.600

He thought, "Well, this will be a piece of cake. I will not have to worry about putting him in jail and all the bad things the boys did." Here the first Saturday night or something, he has got one of his girls in jail. I hated the jail.

00:46:22.820 - 00:46:29.120

I still can remember. It was really a traumatic experience. It was a hard cop. There were rats running around.

00:46:29.130 - 00:46:39.060

There were drunks in the next cell trying to talk to me. It was really bad news. I was only there a couple of hours, but it made a very big impression. Kelly: Did he personally come down and get you?

00:46:39.060 - 00:46:53.100

Beall: He personally came down. He got me, took me back to my bay, and he said I would hear a lot more about that. They almost made an example out of me. I found out much later from one of the officers how close I came to being sent home, because

00:46:52.980 - 00:47:09.040

they wanted all the other girls to know that that was not going to be tolerated. Kelly: I wanted to ask you about the rules. Klemski: I cannot remember too many. I mean, there was nothing, except I was in confined to post for something like three

00:47:09.160 - 00:47:17.160

months. I did not even get to drive the little car. Mary got to do all the driving. Kelly: But as far as having liquor on the base?

00:47:17.410 - 00:47:23.340

Klemski: Oh, definitely not. Kelly: Right. So what were you going to do with those two bottles? Well, we thought we'd just hide them or something.

00:47:23.900 - 00:47:29.000

You couldn't hide a thing. They checked our lockers. I have no idea where we were going. Probably in the car.

00:47:29.200 - 00:47:50.240

I don't think they went around looking in the cars. And when you said you bought this car, I wondered what happened to your car that you bought when you were at Binghamton? Well, I sold it, and I heard from the person who bought it—again, this might be ten or

00:47:50.100 - 00:48:08.440

twenty years ago. It had a little thing that played "Mary Had a Little Lamb," one of those little things. She said, "How did you even know I had a car at Bennington? Did I talk about it before?" Well, anyway, this woman bought it when I left Bennington.

00:48:10.780 - 00:48:29.120

We're back at Avenger and graduation. Did you get into any more trouble? No, that was big trouble, very major. Do you remember any other interesting things that happened at Avenger?

00:48:30.780 - 00:48:41.020

Well, I remember the night that I got a phone call and I was outside of my bay, which was permitted. had to be back in by ten o'clock, but we were allowed to wander around and visit other bays.

00:48:42.380 - 00:49:00.180

When I came back just before ten o'clock, my bay mate said I had had a phone call and they said that if they couldn't find me, that as soon as I got in, I must go and see Miss Cochran. She had been in a meeting with the commanding officer.

00:49:01.440 - 00:49:11.740

I think I knew right that second it had something to do with my brother, because why would my My parents would be talking to Ms. Cochran. I just knew that. I think they said it was my mom or dad on the phone.

00:49:13.980 - 00:49:29.400

That was a pretty bad deal, because she stayed in her meeting for another hour or two, and I was told also I couldn't make any phone calls, because she wanted to be the one or Major Mac to tell me what had happened. Kelly: Do you remember that conversation?

00:49:31.060 - 00:49:52.660

It was actually Major Mack who came and got me, but I think I was ninety percent sure what it was about. Kelly: When you got home, how did your parents think then about your coming back to Sweetwater? Beall: Well, we had some very heavy thinking to do and a lot of talking.

00:49:55.200 - 00:50:10.340

I think it was a hard decision for them, but I've always been grateful ever since, because I've had so much pleasure from flying. Kelly: When you graduated, where did you go? Did you go home?

00:50:11.030 - 00:50:18.440

Beall: Graduated from Sweetwater? Kelly: Uh-huh. Beall: Yes, I think as I recall, I went home. We all had a few days' leave and then reported to Wilmington.

00:50:18.790 - 00:50:28.900

Kelly: Okay. When you reported to Wilmington, to whom did you report? Beall: I suppose to the WASP commanding officer. I think we had two of them.

00:50:28.960 - 00:50:48.560

I know one was Betty Gillies, and the other one was Mary—I've forgotten her name. Kelly: At Wilmington, was Betty Gillies a WAF at that point? Beall: I'm not sure. WAF or one of the very earliest classes, I think she was a WAF.

00:50:48.710 - 00:51:00.380

Kelly: How did the girls treat you who were already at Wilmington? Beall: Just fine, no problem. What were your quarters like there? I can't even remember.

00:51:01.640 - 00:51:21.040

Barracks of some kind. Tell me about some of your flying assignments while you were at Wilmington. Mostly it was fairchild PT-19, which was open cockpit, or PT-26, which was the exact same plane but with a canopy, which made it a lot nicer in the wintertime.

00:51:22.260 - 00:51:34.360

We would go to Hagerstown, Maryland and pick them up. Sometimes we'd make, I don't know, fifteen stops getting them out to the West Coast. They were all new from the factory. Kelly: Describe for me one of those trips.

00:51:35.000 - 00:51:50.880

Beall: Well, you might fly somewhere and then the weather would be bad. We had almost non-existent radio, and we couldn't fly instruments because we didn't have any instruments at those—I mean, just the most basic, tachometer and altimeter. I think there were like four or five instruments.

00:51:52.120 - 00:52:11.480

But nothing that you could literally fly in the clouds. I guess at that time, most of the ones in my class had not had instrument training anyhow. So we would make stop after stop. You'd fly about two hours and land, and sometimes you'd be stuck three days by weather.

00:52:11.520 - 00:52:24.320

I mean, that was not uncommon. Kelly: And where would you stay when you would stop? Klemski: In hotels. And each night we were required to send an RON, remain overnight, telegram back to our

00:52:24.580 - 00:52:36.140

base so they knew where we and the airplane were. Kelly: Ordinarily, would this be a group of pilots going? Steele: Both. I do not remember ever going—well, I think it was both groups and solos.

00:52:36.940 - 00:52:44.160

Very often groups. Kelly: In this group, would there be male pilots also? Steele: Could be or maybe not. It could be three WASPs.

00:52:44.220 - 00:52:53.820

It could be almost any combination. They did not really care. We were all pilots. Do you remember any special things that happened on any of those trips?

00:52:55.540 - 00:53:11.420

Not really. When you would get to your destination, then what would you do? Then we did what we used to say, selling the airplane. That was just an expression that meant turning the papers and getting them signed by whoever

00:53:11.880 - 00:53:30.140

operations officer, I guess, at the other end. We would then very rarely be given—sometimes later on at Palm Springs, we would get another plane at the base we delivered, and that one would go somewhere. You never got back to home base for quite a while.

00:53:30.880 - 00:53:52.660

But at Wilmington, as I recall, we would leave the PTs there, wherever they were destined to go. And then we would almost always go back to Wilmington and go to Hagerstown again. We'd have maybe one day off, or not a lot, because they were behind on ferrying.

00:53:54.840 - 00:54:06.180

Kelly: Was this an aircraft factory at Hagerstown? Or was this brand new airplanes? Steele: Yes, brand new. Kelly: What pieces of equipment would you have to take with you and bring back?

00:54:06.960 - 00:54:21.680

Well, we had what they called a B-4 bag, it was like a canvas suitcase. And then of course we had parachutes, so that was about our equipment. Kelly: And you would have to bring the parachute back? Beall: Oh, sure.

00:54:22.560 - 00:54:34.580

It was issued at your home base and you kept it. And then if unfortunately you had to use it ever, of course. And I think they repacked them sometimes at a certain schedule, maybe every two months or whatever, just to make sure they were good.

00:54:34.840 - 00:54:54.120

When you would get back to your base, then was there a certain amount of time that you would have to spend at the base before you took another flight? Steele: I imagine there was, but I don't remember just how long. Going back to the base, we would almost always go by commercial airplane, commercial airline,

00:54:54.240 - 00:55:11.140

sometimes on another military plane if they had one going. I know we had very, very high priority. I think it was Class II or something, and maybe only the White House had a higher priority. They really wanted us to get back there in a hurry, get our rest, whatever time that

00:55:11.180 - 00:55:26.140

was allowed, and pick up another plane. Kelly: While you were at Wilmington, did you have time off to have social times? Steele: It's funny to keep saying I don't remember, but there certainly wasn't much of it.

00:55:28.880 - 00:55:44.260

While you were at Wilmington, did you get orders then to go to another base? Tell me about that. Well, just exactly what you said. If you were going to be transferred, they would cut some orders and off you go.

00:55:44.900 - 00:56:04.840

How did you feel when you heard you were going to be transferred? I was really pleased, because I did not really enjoy Wilmington that much. we had heard there's much better transition possibilities at Palm Springs. I just was getting awfully tired of flying these little primary trainers when here I

00:56:04.860 - 00:56:20.900

had been flying AT-6s and the twin engine at Sweetwater. So it was sort of regressing in the quality of the aircraft that we could fly. So at Palm Springs, I had much better transition. Do you know how you were selected to go to Palm Springs?

00:56:20.900 - 00:56:27.480

Steele: No idea. How many other girls from Wilmington went with you? Steele: Don't remember. I'm not sure there were any.

00:56:29.060 - 00:56:44.560

We had many different jobs about that time. Some of them were towing targets. You probably know as much or more than I do about that. In the training command, they were doing all kinds of things that we had no flying like

00:56:44.640 - 00:56:50.740

that at all. Do you remember how you got from Wilmington out to Palm Springs? I don't. Okay.

00:56:51.240 - 00:57:05.080

When you got to Palm Springs, do you remember your quarters? Not really. I guess none of it except Sweetwater. I pretty well remember that bay.

00:57:05.740 - 00:57:18.680

Tell me about some of your assignments at Palm Springs. Oh, it was great. We would be told that I could co-pilot on all kinds of twin or four-engine aircraft and actually checked out on one or two of them.

00:57:20.720 - 00:57:38.800

There were something like, I think I'm right, I don't know if there were twenty-five WASPs and seven hundred officers. You could have been cross-eyed and bow-legged and had ten dates every night. It was a totally different atmosphere than I had encountered at Wilmington.

00:57:38.800 - 00:57:53.400

Kelly: In order to fly, say, B-17s or 24s, what kind of extra training did they give you? Steele: Mostly just studying the manual and then a lot of sitting in the cockpit. I think looking back, amazingly little time.

00:57:54.080 - 00:58:07.560

And we'd always start out co-piloting. You didn't ever, that I can remember, on the multi-engine get put in the left seat after some training time. Kelly: How were you treated by the male officers?

00:58:07.560 - 00:58:21.200

Wheeler: Absolutely wonderfully. They thought we were great at Palm Springs. I don't think they were that fond of us at Wilmington. Kelly: While you were at Palm Springs, did you get temporary orders to go to another

00:58:21.640 - 00:58:33.580

school, the OCS school? Wheeler: Yes, I went to Orlando, Florida. Kelly: Describe for me that training. Wheeler: Well, I think Jackie Cochran at that time thought that we were going to become

00:58:33.560 - 00:58:48.440

part of the Army Air Force, as it was called. And so, it was quite a lot for us to become familiar with, if we were in fact to become officers. And, we were in a very strange status, which I'm sure you know about.

00:58:48.520 - 00:59:08.800

We were civilians on officer status, I think it was called. And we got just about none of the perks of being an officer. If some of the girls were killed, which they were, that family would get no military recognition or star in the window or military funeral or any of that.

00:59:08.880 - 00:59:27.080

That happened much, much later. Kelly: Do you remember some of the courses that you took at Orlando? It was all military courtesy. I really don't—I'm not sure how long we were there.

00:59:27.080 - 00:59:36.840

It wasn't too long. Kelly: Did you have any kind of a high-altitude chamber? Beall: Yes, I think that was in Orlando. I'm pretty sure it was.

00:59:37.360 - 00:59:47.900

Kelly: Were there some other girls from Palm Springs sent at the same time you were sent? Beall: I can't remember. Kelly: Then did you report back to Palm Springs? Steele: Yes.

00:59:48.110 - 01:00:11.340

Kelly: Tell me anything unusual that might have happened while you were at Palm Springs. With all those Air Force officers at Palm Springs, tell me about your social life. Steele: It was very social. It was wonderful.

01:00:11.800 - 01:00:29.280

The ferry planes all over the place. For me at least, it was a complete change for the better from Wilmington. Kelly: What was your primary responsibility while you were at Palm Springs? Steele: Ferrying aircraft, very definitely.

01:00:29.620 - 01:00:49.300

Kelly: When you would fly co-pilot or even first pilot in the B-17s and the B-24s, what would those trips be for? Well, delivering aircraft, obviously, as I recall, a great many of them were planes where the flight before that should have been the last one.

01:00:49.360 - 01:01:05.140

They were in terrible shape. Sometimes you just never knew what was going to happen next. I remember finding a coffee cup, a China coffee cup, and saucer up in the engine cowling one day and some mechanic had just forgotten.

01:01:05.440 - 01:01:22.000

I don't think it would have caused any big trouble, but a lot of our best mechanics had gone overseas by then, and there were no women mechanics, at least in the Ferry Command. We had very few women flight instructors. I know there was one, maybe two, at Sweetwater.

01:01:24.060 - 01:01:48.440

Kelly: What kind of crew would you have on those four engines? Steele: They consisted usually of a WASP and always two up front, two pilots. And then very often two WASPs, if somebody else had checked out, they'd send two of us out together. I remember today the engineers or the mechanic, I think they were called

01:01:48.480 - 01:02:07.260

engineers at the time, and they were really old guys. They were probably 30, 35. Most of them were married. Quite a few had small children. They weren't about to be happy flying with these little 21-year-olds. Some of the girls had their hair in ponytails or or pigtails and they looked even younger.

01:02:08.180 - 01:02:27.280

These guys practically went absent without leave to avoid those flights with the Wasp. And then, of course, they didn't have any choice. Our accident record, so I heard, was slightly better than the men's. I think the reason for that was that we were tremendously appreciative of the opportunity

01:02:27.400 - 01:02:44.720

to fly that type of equipment, where the men would say, "Oh, I've got another B-17 trip tomorrow." these engineers were completely happy to fly with us. I know several WASPs, it didn't happen to me, would land at a field and usually if you

01:02:44.720 - 01:02:59.900

were a rank of major or higher, they would send a staff car out to bring you back into the operations. And then the first time somebody would—they'd call on the radio and say, "What's the highest rank on board?" after we were parked.

01:03:01.160 - 01:03:11.340

The girls would say, "In the highest rank, two WASPs and a sergeant." They just did not believe it. I know a couple of times they came out and literally searched the plane looking for a manned pilot.

01:03:11.960 - 01:03:35.120

Then they got used to the idea. Can you remember any unusual happenings on any of the trips that you took? I know this one guy that I was so fond of and vice versa. We did a lot of ferrying, but we also sent the RON wire every night from the place we

01:03:35.140 - 01:03:49.720

had been the night before, so they could not find us. We delivered an incredible number of planes in a short time, because we were not sure we would get orders again together. We kept the same sergeant with us the whole trip, too.

01:03:49.960 - 01:04:02.900

It worked out beautifully. Kelly: Have you kept in touch with that particular person? Steele: No. Kelly: While you were at Palm Springs, did you get orders then to go someplace else?

01:04:03.050 - 01:04:16.540

Steele: Yes, I did, to Williams Field, which was not a ferry base. It was training command. Kelly: Do you know why they sent you to Williams? Steele: I think because they had finally found us and realized that we were not sending our

01:04:16.400 - 01:04:33.780

RONs as we should have, because that's followed very shortly thereafter. Were there other WASPs who went with you to Williams? Not went with me, but there were about, oh, maybe eight or ten WASPs there. How did you feel about being transferred?

01:04:33.940 - 01:04:52.260

Horrible. Hated it. The commanding officer at Williams did not like the WASP at all. I think we stayed in the nurses' quarters there, and our job there was to fly only AT-6s.

01:04:52.280 - 01:05:07.180

The whole base was T-6, which of course was a lovely plane. But the way they worked it, when the cadets cracked them up, they would get repaired, and then the WASP would do the first test flight. At least that was my job, was all test hopping, because we were pretty expendable, they figured,

01:05:07.280 - 01:05:17.600

and at least so we were told. But were there some male pilots who also did testing, do you know? Steele: I don't remember testing. I know there were a lot of cadets there.

01:05:17.600 - 01:05:37.040

It was an advanced training base for the cadets. Kelly: While you were at Williams, what was the social activities there like? Steele: Zero. Kelly: Do you remember when you first heard that the WASP would be disbanded, and how

01:05:37.120 - 01:05:50.040

did you hear? Well, I don't think we even had a sort of commanding officer in our own group there at Williams. I think we were all pretty much on a par, and I don't know how the word got out, whether

01:05:50.040 - 01:06:05.000

they telephoned or sent orders, I don't remember. Do you remember how you felt? Oh, yes, it was awful news. Bad as Williams was, we were still flying and being paid to fly, which was so wonderful.

01:06:06.120 - 01:06:23.720

We would have—at Palm Springs, by the way, we did all our flying before ten in the morning or after five p.m., because when I was there, it was way too hot in the middle of the day, and you would burn up engines or burn up tires. Here we were being paid to loll around at the officers' club or the swimming pool.

01:06:24.500 - 01:06:38.920

It was just like one big country club, and then fly these marvelous airplanes. When you were disbanded, did the air base at Williams do anything special to honor the Wasps? Not as far as I know.

01:06:39.940 - 01:06:59.240

Do you remember how you were, when you left Williams, how did you get home from Williams? I think that was when I hitched a ride on an Army plane and got as far as New York or somewhere on the East Coast. Then what did you do?

01:07:00.160 - 01:07:14.240

Then I wrote 50 letters to every aviation company and airline you could think of trying to get a flying job. I didn't know there were that many ways to say no. Some were just two sentences, "Sorry, we don't have women pilots."

01:07:15.740 - 01:07:34.780

Some would actually write a paragraph or two and say they were sorry, but at that time and make a suggestion. I ended up doing some ferrying for a man in Albany, New York. He would buy surplus planes and fix them up and sell them, and I would go and pick up

01:07:34.840 - 01:07:41.900

some of these aircraft for him. Kelly: Then where would you take them? Lowry: Back to Albany for him. Then he would fix them up and sell them.

01:07:42.030 - 01:07:57.920

Kelly: When you first got out of the WASP, did you stay at home? Lowry: I think so. Kelly: And then you moved to Albany? Steele: No, Albany was just because he lived there.

01:07:58.820 - 01:08:16.020

Actually the airport was at Troy, New York, which was right next to Albany. Kelly: What kind of airplanes were these? Steele: We flew PT-19s mostly, I think. Kelly: And after you finished that job, then what did you do?

01:08:16.980 - 01:08:46.600

Oh gosh, I flew co-pilot for several different non-scheduled airlines, flying down to Puerto Rico and mostly to San Juan, Puerto Rico from New York. We were based at Teterboro, New Jersey. And then we'd go broke and the next day we'd just paint a different name on the side of the plane, the same crew, the same airplane. But we couldn't get sued, we were trying to stay one jump ahead of whoever we owed money to.

01:08:47.460 - 01:09:01.140

Were there other female pilots? None on the nonskids that I was on. There were at least two or three of us working for the gentleman in Albany. Take me through one trip that you made down to Puerto Rico.

01:09:02.360 - 01:09:22.800

Well, for one thing, the Puerto Ricans, I can't remember what Eastern Airline was charging, but we'll say it was $100 per person, per passenger, for a ticket that would take you from San Juan to Miami and Miami up to New York. At least in Puerto Rico, these people, a lot of them at least, lived on farms.

01:09:23.040 - 01:09:37.760

Their children had farm produce. They had fresh air, sunshine, but they thought that New York was a promised land, the families did. and the depths of these people were so poor you can't imagine.

01:09:38.580 - 01:09:52.380

And they'd go up and settle in Harlem, maybe, I don't know, ten in a one-bedroom apartment or something like that. And I can still remember if Eastern charged a hundred, we would charge eighty-five. It barely paid for our gas.

01:09:54.160 - 01:10:10.960

And at one point, I know we offered a free overcoat to every man, passenger that we took. And we did break quite a few of the FAA rules just in order to stay solvent. We'd get a mother and we'd pile maybe three children on top of her and use seatbelt extenders.

01:10:11.820 - 01:10:24.960

We were good about seatbelts, but the mound would be this high. There'd be a five-year-old and a three-year-old and a baby. That was the only way that we could collect enough to break even. And then I flew quite a lot of freight.

01:10:25.040 - 01:10:43.940

I flew some cattle, Brahma cattle from Wisconsin down to Miami. These people would go up to Harlem, by the way, the Puerto Ricans, and there they would pick up bugs and die. They just weren't equipped for New York in the wintertime.

01:10:44.420 - 01:11:03.260

Women would wear sleeveless cotton dresses and maybe lucky if they had a sweater. We were flying quite a few coffins back down. I particularly do remember one flight. I let the word out in our very small company that I did not want any coffin flights.

01:11:03.380 - 01:11:28.840

I was nervous about it and thought they could get other people to take those. So we would bring freight up to New York and the Puerto Rican passengers. Then we would have these coffins going back. I can remember one flight, I was at my family's, they had moved into New York City at that

01:11:28.920 - 01:11:41.000

time. I don't know, it was probably around eight o'clock at night, the phone rang and it was our head of operations and he asked if I could take a trip, which I hadn't been planning on.

01:11:41.100 - 01:11:52.780

I said, "Sure," because the pilot I think had gotten sick, the one that was supposed to go. So I went out to Teterboro and it was dark and the plane was already all loaded. I didn't see anything that looked strange to me.

01:11:52.920 - 01:12:09.680

Nobody said a word. So I got up front and assisted with a takeoff. Then the captain said that he was tired. I remember we flew as far as Lumberton, South Carolina, because we get fuel about five cents

01:12:09.720 - 01:12:20.300

a gallon cheaper. All of us were going, you could see all the other non-SKEDs there too. So he went back and took a nap for an hour or two. Then he asked me if I wanted to sleep.

01:12:20.400 - 01:12:34.360

I said, "Sure." By then it's, I don't know, ten or eleven at night. So I went back and lay on these quilts that we always carried. I had a really good sleep, because this was after we left Lumberton.

01:12:35.120 - 01:12:50.840

The next thing I know, the wheels touched the ground and there was a little small bump, and I woke up and I could see the palm trees of Miami. Then we had these baggage handlers on the ground, and they didn't like the coffins. "Oh, no, sir, boss, I ain't going to fool with that.

01:12:50.920 - 01:13:01.580

I'm not going to do that." Oh, my gosh, I've been sleeping on top of a coffin all night. That was my only coffin trip that I knew about. I don't know why I had that uneasy feeling about it.

01:13:02.050 - 01:13:15.240

Kelly: I'm interested in your hauling cattle. How would you do that? Lowry: Well, we would have usually a DC-3. That's what most of our aircraft and the non-SKEDs were anyway.

01:13:17.740 - 01:13:33.800

As I recall, we would almost always put nine on board. Again, we were in there hanging on a financial thread, you might say. By the time we put the fuel in the plane and have whatever the necessary maintenance was, we were just barely making a tiny profit.

01:13:35.020 - 01:13:50.460

So they put the cattle in three at a time, load them. And of course, I was a tail-wheeled aircraft, so it was always the back end on a slight slant. And I do recall one—again, I don't know if you want all these funny incidents, funny

01:13:50.540 - 01:14:07.220

to me at the time. We had one trip and they were Brahma bulls. And the rule was, I think, that with cattle, you had to have enough room that all three in that row could lie down at the same time, because you know how a cow gets a lot bigger

01:14:07.300 - 01:14:16.640

when it lies down. Well, if we had done that, we could probably only put two in a row. So we would have where if two lay down, the other guy had to stand up. There just wasn't room.

01:14:18.420 - 01:14:32.580

We finally got down to—they were going to Cartagena, Columbia, now I remember. But we had to stop at Miami to get fuel. So I was a co-pilot at that point. I asked the captain if he'd mind.

01:14:32.660 - 01:14:43.440

I thought those guys are so thirsty. They'd been on board since, I think, New Jersey in the morning. I said, "Would you mind if I water each one of them?" The only way to do that was offload them.

01:14:43.500 - 01:14:53.460

There was no way to get through there with a bucket of water. He said, "No, that's all right. Just make sure you tie them well." There was a big chain-link fence, and I started with the back row.

01:14:53.540 - 01:15:05.940

I got three of them out, one at a time. They were dying to get out. You just had to turn them around and get out of the way. I had halters on them and gave them buckets of water, just hauled like I was tired.

01:15:07.320 - 01:15:26.200

Then when I got to, I think it was in the middle row, and I left the other three tied to the fence, well, one of the middle ones anyway, I did not make a good knot. I went to get a bucket of water and this huge bull just took off galloping down the runway. The tower went crazy and they had to send Eastern Airline and American and everybody

01:15:26.400 - 01:15:39.560

away. It took quite a long time to catch this bull. They finally had to send downtown someplace sort of a professional cowboy, and he had his horse and a truck.

01:15:40.400 - 01:15:55.160

It was probably about an hour, hour and a half, which was a lot of orbiting around, and some of the airlines had to land somewhere else depending on their fuel. I was in great disgrace for not having tied a good knot. Then the other problem, of course, is letting him drink all that water.

01:15:55.480 - 01:16:13.880

Then they urinate, and that will corrode control cables. That wasn't too good an idea either. Kelly: When you finished, left that particular job, where did you go? Steele: Oh, gosh.

01:16:13.960 - 01:16:30.880

I instructed for Andy Devine, who was a movie actor at the time, Big Gravel Voice. He had a very small operation outside of Los Angeles. So I instructed for him. I got my instructor's rating and got a job right away.

01:16:31.780 - 01:16:45.700

How did you get a job from the East Coast to the West Coast? What made you go from there? I don't really remember now. I think I just got tired of the East Coast and the non-SKEDs were falling apart.

01:16:48.580 - 01:17:03.600

I can still remember I was making three dollars an hour and the captain would get five. We were lucky to get the three. We consider that was sheer bliss. When you got to L.A., you got a job with Andy Devine's company?

01:17:04.260 - 01:17:20.720

It was called Probert Devine Flying Service. Did you have to have more instruction before you began to instruct? I had to pass my instructor's rating. Yes, I did.

01:17:21.220 - 01:17:33.880

Do you remember how many extra hours you had to get to do that? I need to put a pillow behind my back. This chair gets a little old. She's a little taller than you. I bet I am.

01:17:34.240 - 01:17:45.240

We've got about five minutes on this tape. Okay. And then you took instructions to get an instructor's rating. Right. And then you began to instruct. And who were your students?

01:17:45.740 - 01:18:03.280

Everybody who came in who paid the money to my company. Did you have any female students? I don't think so, I don't remember any. Did you ever have personal contact with Andy Devine?

01:18:04.000 - 01:18:13.740

Occasionally, not very often. I taught his wife at one point. She was a beautiful redhead, and I remember teaching his wife to fly. Do you remember what kind of student she was?

01:18:14.600 - 01:18:30.020

As I recall, perfectly fine, no problem. And then I did some hopping passengers for him, too. We did quite a bit of that on weekends. People would come up and pay, I don't know, ten dollars or whatever we were charging just

01:18:30.120 - 01:18:40.760

for an airplane ride. Kelly: How long did you stay with that particular company? Steele: I don't really remember. Not a huge amount of time.

01:18:41.040 - 01:19:02.840

Kelly: Was there anything unusual or exciting that happened while you were instructing? Oh, I recall one flight, but it was a passenger hop that wasn't instructing. Somebody had done some mechanical work on the aircraft, which I was unaware of, and they didn't tie a red flag on the strut, which they were supposed to.

01:19:03.070 - 01:19:14.220

It was a Fairchild, high wing. I put in the four or five passengers. It was full anyhow. The minute I took off, I realized there was something wrong with the airplane, because

01:19:14.700 - 01:19:26.620

it went into this very steep bank. That was one of my more interesting flights, and I just managed to make a circle and get in and land. It turned out the part of the strut wasn't even hooked up, and the plane should never

01:19:26.660 - 01:19:36.520

have been flown by anybody that day. It was a definite ground error. So I think it was more luck again than anything else on my part. How was your landing?

01:19:37.420 - 01:19:50.100

I didn't think it was normal. Did it upset your passengers? They didn't know the difference. When you finished working at that job, then what did you do?

01:19:50.960 - 01:20:12.840

Steele: Oh, gosh, I did a lot of—odds and ends of flying, anything I could— Kelly: Just describe some of those. Steele: Well, I've talked about the fairing with the non-SKIDS and the instructing. Oh, I flew—made a few flights for people at—I can't think of the company's name

01:20:12.840 - 01:20:33.480

now out in Los Angeles. I remember one pilot was absolutely crazy, really sort of an epileptic, I think. Well, crazy is not the right word, but he was having epileptic fits. He had one just before we took off right in front of us, and it was a night takeoff.

01:20:34.540 - 01:20:48.040

I refused to go, and the other guy went. They managed to get across the country, and then they ditched in the water. I remember that, I forget what type of airplane. I decided I didn't need that job that badly.

01:20:48.600 - 01:20:59.620

He fell down right in the street just before we were boarding the airplane. Kelly: While you were in L.A., did you make trips back to the East Coast to visit family? Lowry: Oh, sure. Well, also ferrying.

01:21:00.300 - 01:21:12.980

Just odd jobs, as I say, whenever somebody needed a pilot and I was available. Kelly: At what point in your life did you meet someone really special? Like my husband? Like your husband.

01:21:13.320 - 01:21:24.320

We have been married about 46 years, I think now, something like that. And I met him out here in Aspen. Met him in the lift line skiing. Okay.

01:21:25.600 - 01:21:40.580

What happened between the time you were working in California? Why did you come to Aspen? Well that was easy. I was back in New York and staying with my family in New York City, and they wanted me

01:21:40.580 - 01:21:58.160

non-flying job. I had my P-39 at that time. Someone went and told my folks it was a really dangerous airplane, which it isn't. They were so apprehensive after my brother's death that they really wanted me to get a

01:21:58.240 - 01:22:10.340

job on the ground. It was just before Christmas. I remember going, I don't know how I happened to get the job, but I went to Saks Fifth Avenue. They had a ski shop and they hired me immediately.

01:22:10.460 - 01:22:24.040

I loved to ski and I sort of knew the language. They hired me immediately as a Christmas sales lady. The nice thing about that was at least we got to wear all the newest ski clothes. There were about three or four of us in the shop.

01:22:25.140 - 01:22:36.140

I could put a pair of mittens on the counter. It was a co-ed ski shop. We carried men's clothing as well as women's. I still remember any boyfriend of mine could come in and I'd put the mittens on the counter

01:22:36.180 - 01:22:45.880

and we could chat away. Otherwise, all the sales ladies I know at SACS all had to wear black dresses and a string of pearls. It was just like a uniform, which didn't sound good.

01:22:45.900 - 01:23:00.120

I worked there about three weeks. It wasn't bad. I certainly didn't want to make a career out of it. They offered me a longer job, and I thought, "Well, I might as well stay a little longer

01:23:00.160 - 01:23:13.740

while I can figure out what I want to do." My family just really didn't want me to do any more flying. I don't know what got them so upset, but the B-39 was a little fighter plane. I'd had it, I don't know how long at that point.

01:23:15.000 - 01:23:39.800

But somebody spooked them. So I'm trying to think what I did after that. It was a very similar color, so no problem. Tell me about buying the P-39.

01:23:40.140 - 01:23:53.140

What made you buy a P-39? That's something I can answer. I had a friend named Gloria Heath, and she and I had been buying surplus AT-6s. I think we had five of them all together.

01:23:54.300 - 01:24:10.340

We had one called Nelly that we would go almost every weekend. We would go and have fun somewhere, go up to Nova Scotia and go fishing or did all kinds of fun things, take turns flying it. And finally, we sold Nelly, the last one.

01:24:10.380 - 01:24:24.240

It was just getting so expensive. I think it was thirty gallons an hour of fuel, something like that. And we were just getting to the point where it was costing more than we could afford. And so we sold Nellie.

01:24:24.900 - 01:24:42.080

It was very sad. And just about the time we sold her, I saw a P-39 parked at my home airport. And it just sat there, and nobody seemed to be flying it. I went in the office and asked who owned it, and they gave me the name of a guy I didn't

01:24:42.140 - 01:24:55.460

know. I called him up and asked if I could fly his plane. I forgot to tell you, when I was in Sweetwater, I had orders all cut to go to Brownsville, Texas, to fighter school.

01:24:56.220 - 01:25:15.080

That's all I ever wanted in my life, was to go to pursuit school, as we called it. The day before I was supposed to go to Brownsville, I was what they called "OD," Officer of the Day, and all that really means is you deliver the mail to every WASP there, and just wear your normal everyday zoot suit.

01:25:15.820 - 01:25:29.900

I know I was sort of in the middle of delivering mail to some of the bays and I started to itch. I looked down at my arm and it was covered with red spots. I went back to my bay and my whole body was covered with red spots and I had the measles.

01:25:30.820 - 01:25:42.060

Twenty-one years old and I had never had measles. The only horrible part was the pursuit school that I couldn't go in the morning. I went to the infirmary. I think I was there a week or something like that.

01:25:43.180 - 01:25:57.480

The even more horrible part of the story is that we were the last class that could go to this pursuit school. Why I don't know, but the logistics said that this was the last class that could go. Where were you stationed at that time?

01:25:57.640 - 01:26:15.840

I was at Sweetwater, I think in my advanced training, I'm not sure. Boy, that just broke my heart. I got on the phone, I tried to call Hap Arnold, I tried to call Jackie Cochran, I called anybody. I said, "Look, I'll fly day and night, I'll do whatever you want, but don't cancel me

01:26:16.400 - 01:26:28.760

out." Of course, with the schedule and all, it ended up I couldn't go. That was very sad for me. As I told you, flying in Palm Springs and got some twin engine and some four, not a

01:26:28.760 - 01:26:44.720

lot, but enough to have some fun. But I much rather would have flown pursuit. So then to see this P-39 that looked so pretty sitting there kind of tempted me. And of course, you can't go for a ride with anyone with one seat.

01:26:44.960 - 01:27:04.740

So I got the man that owned it, came out to the airport, and I met him. He was very nice, but he definitely wanted to sell it, and he wanted a thousand dollars. He had only flown it from Cleveland to New York and somehow scared himself to death. I said, "Well, could I fly it?"

01:27:04.740 - 01:27:12.780

I had been in the Wasp, and he said, "Well, sure. Did you fly 39s before?" I said, "Nope." "You've flown P-38, it's kind of similar, one engine."

01:27:14.260 - 01:27:20.080

"Nope." "Well, what's the closest you've flown?" I said, "Well, I guess a T-6." "Oh, that's quite different.

01:27:20.200 - 01:27:37.360

This one had, I think it was 1,100 horsepower instead of 650." So anyway, he stood on the wing and he kind of checked me out and told me what was what. Then he asked me to go to the filling station and get a quart of oil, because you put it in the top and as I noticed then it kind of pretty well ran out the bottom.

01:27:40.320 - 01:27:47.500

So we made an arrangement. He said, "Well, do you want to pay me now?" I said, "No, I've never flown. Supposing I don't like it?"

01:27:48.110 - 01:27:56.780

He said, "Well, you give me a cashier's check for the full amount just in case you crash the airplane. I want to be paid in advance. I want $1,000.

01:27:58.620 - 01:28:12.400

And if you don't like it, we made an agreement, I think it was $40 an hour, that I would pay him just like if I brought it back in one piece. So that seemed very fair to me. And I took off, and I just could not believe it.

01:28:12.540 - 01:28:27.000

In fact, on takeoff, it didn't go as fast as I expected. Then I realized I'd forgotten to pull the gear up. As soon as I took care of that, it was the most responsive. I flew maybe half an hour or something and made a beautiful landing, because you couldn't

01:28:27.160 - 01:28:37.920

miss landings. I came down and said, "Keep the check." We did the paperwork and that was that. Kelly: Then what did you do with that airplane?

01:28:38.100 - 01:28:49.840

Steele: Just plain had fun. I had it when I got married, and it was expensive to fly. Instead of thirty gallons an hour, if I was paying for my own gas, it was about fifty-two gallons an hour.

01:28:50.280 - 01:28:59.740

I did some races. Oh, you asked me what else I did. I did a fair amount of racing. Racing it would go up to 200 gallons an hour with everything pushed forward.

01:29:01.760 - 01:29:22.980

I was always trying to get sponsors, if they could put their name anywhere on the airplane, as far as I was concerned, if they would just pay for the gas. Kelly: Describe for me one of the races. Maestas: I did mostly cross-country, but I did one or two pylons, which really I probably

01:29:23.040 - 01:29:30.460

shouldn't have. Looking back, I didn't have the training. it's totally different, flying very low and very steep turns. But cross-country was kind of fun.

01:29:30.520 - 01:29:42.160

They had a women's international race, and they had—I've forgotten the name of some of the others—didn't do well at all. Flew at Cleveland. One year they wouldn't let me fly because they wouldn't let women fly at all, so I

01:29:42.220 - 01:29:58.940

had to get a pilot who liked the P-39 to fly for me. Kelly: With this women's international race, would you pay to enter the race? And were there prizes? They were trophies, mostly trophies.

01:29:59.080 - 01:30:05.340

Okay. And where would the race begin? Well I'm trying to remember. I also had a Navy on.

01:30:05.400 - 01:30:27.920

I had two aircraft for maybe a year or so, maybe more than that. I know I had them both when we got married and then Art wanted me to get rid of the P-39. What do you say, take Chapter 11 or something, otherwise. Kelly: When you had the P-39 and did a race, you would go from one point to another point

01:30:27.940 - 01:30:39.220

and return? Steele: No, no return, just from A to B. Kelly: The skill of the racing— Steele: Was navigation a lot of it.

01:30:40.140 - 01:30:58.740

The planes were handicapped, according to their cruising speeds, to make it so that But somebody flying a beach had just as good a chance, supposedly. I'm trying to think of the powder puff derbies I flew my Navy on. One or two of those, and I won two of the international air races, I remember.

01:30:59.960 - 01:31:14.480

One was from Canada to Florida. I landed in the middle of Mr. Vanderbilt's racetrack, because the weather was too bad for me to keep going. I had this huge big chocolate milkshake in the cockpit, and the lid wasn't on.

01:31:14.780 - 01:31:27.500

Anyway, it came loose, and so the whole plane smelled like a chocolate milkshake for quite a while. Do you still have the trophies from that race? No, I sent those to the '99 Museum.

01:31:27.680 - 01:31:38.120

I think that was where I sent them. A couple of years ago, they were in a barrel up in the barn, and they were really ugly trophies, most of them. Sort of a generic airplane on top, some were great big things.

01:31:39.080 - 01:31:54.180

I have one or two really pretty. I have a silver dish that I use for vegetables, a sterling dish, that's the kind of trophy I like. Of all those races that you did, which one did you enjoy the most?

01:31:55.800 - 01:32:07.820

That's a good question. I think when I went in that racetrack and got out of there in one piece, going in wasn't so bad, but I wasn't sure. There was a fence, of course, an oval track.

01:32:08.860 - 01:32:25.100

And then I wasn't too sure where I was. The weather had been so bad going from, I guess, either went from Westchester or from Montreal on that one. So I did land with no problem except the milkshake tipping over.

01:32:26.340 - 01:32:35.480

Someone I didn't even know at the start of the race had handed it to me. We hadn't had time to eat or do a thing. We were so busy getting ready. Kelly: And why did you need to land there?

01:32:35.540 - 01:32:54.080

Because the weather was just impossible ahead and I didn't have enough fuel to go back anywhere I didn't know where I was and so I got out of the plane. I parked it and got out And it was just like being in a ghost Place wasn't any noise from anywhere. I of course was in the middle in the infield of the racetrack and

01:32:54.860 - 01:33:10.540

Finally, I saw a door quite far away there were some big metal buildings and I thought where the dog is is probably going to be a person and I opened the door and there were about eight Chinese that were playing pool or poke something like pool I guess and

01:33:11.760 - 01:33:26.000

So I asked one of them where I was and of course they didn't know where I'd come from They looked out. There was no car and finally they saw the airplane. They were pretty surprised And they told me where I was So then I asked to use their phone and I called the race

01:33:26.640 - 01:33:42.360

Committee down in Miami and said I was on the ground. Everything was fine closed my flight plan I was only on the ground maybe an hour or two, and the weather cleared up enough. I flew down to Miami. Did you have any problems taking off?

01:33:42.840 - 01:34:00.920

Just barely made it, because it was a grass infield and it was wet, and I didn't really get a lot of traction. When you were in New York working, then why did you— How did I get to Aspen?

01:34:01.980 - 01:34:14.460

Because I decided that I was zipping all these ladies into their ski clothes and I would just chat away and ask them where they were going skiing. Quite a few of them said they were going to Aspen. It was the first year the lifts opened here.

01:34:15.620 - 01:34:27.600

I thought, "Boy, that sounds like fun." I suddenly remembered that a friend of mine in the WASP had invited me to her wedding about a year before that. The wedding was in a place called Carvendale, Colorado.

01:34:28.480 - 01:34:40.320

I didn't go to the wedding, but I thought, "I wonder where Aspen is in relation to Carbondale." I looked on the map and found it was very close. I thought, "Boy, that sounds like fun."

01:34:40.320 - 01:34:56.480

I called my friend, but my family insisted I have a job. I asked my friend, "Do you know of any jobs available in Aspen?" She said, "Boy, your timing is marvelous. She owned a ski shop here."

01:34:56.480 - 01:35:10.040

She had one girl employee who had just eloped with a ski instructor. She said, "If I could get out there right away, hopefully the next day." She was desperate for someone. I thought, "Wow, I've got a job and I'm not even there yet."

01:35:10.040 - 01:35:27.240

So I talked to my boss at SACS and said I wanted to quit. She asked me when, and I said, "Right this minute." She was a little shocked, but she was a very nice woman and that was okay. I think we were past most of the ski season, as I remember, maybe February or March.

01:35:29.180 - 01:35:46.720

I called a friend of mine who was also flying freight, and he had a load of horses going from New York to Denver the next morning. He said I could go with him, because I didn't have much money at that point. Sachs wasn't paying very big salaries, but it wasn't a bad job.

01:35:47.840 - 01:36:06.940

So I got to Denver and then I took a train to Glenwood Springs. So my friend met me there and we went to Carbondale to her house. On the way up, going up her driveway, there was a lot of snow. I remember we hadn't seen each other for maybe a year.

01:36:08.360 - 01:36:23.740

We were chatting away and she went in this huge snowdrift. The car was stuck, we weren't hurt. She said she'd done that the day before, and her husband was really mad. So we had to walk up to the house and get him and get the car out.

01:36:25.140 - 01:36:37.520

This was in the morning, and I didn't think I was going to do anything except maybe see the shop. She had a little house here she put her employees in. But then the next thing I knew, they said, "Well, we're going to ski this afternoon.

01:36:37.640 - 01:36:53.660

We have to go right to the top of the mountain to the sun deck and have a bite to eat, and Then we'll go skiing." I thought, "Well, okay." I whipped into my ski clothes down at her house, came here, went up the mountain, and

01:36:54.100 - 01:37:07.440

we got our trays of food at the cafeteria. The next thing I knew, we sat down on some benches, and she introduced me to the lady next to me, who was her husband's ex-wife. I thought, "Well, this is a nice, interesting place to be."

01:37:08.200 - 01:37:20.820

It's been interesting ever since. Betty, when you left New York, did you still own those two airplanes? Let me think. Yes, I know I owned the Navion.

01:37:20.840 - 01:37:35.940

I never had the P-39 here in Aspen, but the Navion I had for a very short time. It is notoriously not a good altitude plane. They say, "Well, it taxis well, but it won't fly up here at 8,000 feet." It just was no good at all.

01:37:36.020 - 01:37:51.880

I tried to fly to Gunnison one day, and I couldn't even get over the mountains. I just circled and circled and it doesn't have any power. And then you get some carburetor ice and you put the heat on, you lose even more power. So we decided that we need to get a better mountain aircraft.

01:37:52.940 - 01:38:01.740

Now, Art had flown during the war, but he didn't ever want to fly again. That was something I found out after we got married. How did you get the Avion from New York? Navion.

01:38:02.880 - 01:38:18.480

To Aspen? Well, oh, I flew it. You flew it? Also, part of my checkered career, you asked what I did between the WASP and after the

01:38:18.480 - 01:38:31.500

WASP at least. For four years, I was a stewardess with Pan American. I sort of forgot to mention that. Kelly: As a stewardess, what was your most interesting flight?

01:38:31.730 - 01:38:48.560

Steele: They were all overseas and it was all fun. I just loved it. Hong Kong one week, South Africa the next, Tokyo, a great variety of places in the world. Today a woman can be, there are many places that she could work all over the world, but

01:38:48.560 - 01:39:04.500

in those days unless you worked for just one company and probably as a secretary, there was really not that much travel available for females. So I thought it was a great job. Some of the trips we'd be gone three weeks and then we'd have three weeks off when we

01:39:04.380 - 01:39:23.640

got back. Do you remember anything interesting or outstanding on any of those trips, or interesting passengers? Well, I remember one flight, I had a load of passengers going to London, and it was a night trip.

01:39:23.740 - 01:39:37.460

I think we were leaving New York about, oh, eight o'clock at night or nine, something like that. At that point, I had become a purser, which is one level up and you get a little more pay, but you're also responsible for anything the stewards are stewarded.

01:39:37.580 - 01:39:57.780

If they spill coffee on a passenger, it's your fault. More responsibility and a little more pay to go with it. It was a Boeing Stratocruiser, and we had something like ten berths. We would sell them, I think it was $25 each additional, to fly from New York to London

01:39:57.780 - 01:40:12.860

and have a berth. And so all our berths were full. There weren't that many and it was relatively inexpensive. So everybody after had climbed to altitude, the passengers who had berths, it was just

01:40:12.980 - 01:40:25.140

like a train. They had little curtains and they'd climb up there and most of them change into their night clothes. And so the berths were all full and we were maybe an hour and a half, say, out of New

01:40:25.140 - 01:40:41.300

York. Every flight seemed to be twelve hours, no matter where we went. But anyhow, the captain called on the little phone for the stewardess or purser. I answered and he said, "We were having serious engine trouble with one engine.

01:40:42.480 - 01:40:56.200

And definitely going to turn around." We hadn't reached the point of no return, as they called it, and go back into what was called Idlewild, which is now Kennedy. So he said, "I'll give you a signal when we're about thirty minutes out.

01:40:56.230 - 01:41:08.920

I want you and the purser to wake up all the berth passengers. You can wake the ones in the seats, but the berth particularly first, because they need a little time to get ready for the landing." They all had seats underneath the berth.

01:41:09.960 - 01:41:17.760

So that was fine. I remember today telling this one steward, "You take the right side of the plane and I'll take the left." He said, "Fine."

01:41:17.760 - 01:41:33.980

It was very normal. So we each had about six people to wake up. And then we came back and landed in New York and everybody was fine. And I think we put the passengers on a different aircraft, almost all of them elected to make

01:41:34.040 - 01:41:47.860

the change and continue to London. I think very few of them had been nervous about -- it wasn't really an emergency, but it was our procedure to return. And the next thing I knew, I went to London on the second plane.

01:41:47.980 - 01:42:03.560

We didn't have a crew change. And then I flew back to New York after that. Sometimes you'd go on to Vienna or anywhere you can think of, really. But when I got to New York, we had little mailboxes, and I saw a company letterhead

01:42:03.600 - 01:42:09.660

in my mailbox. Usually, they're little compliments. Some passenger says, "How great you are. You took care of the child."

01:42:10.680 - 01:42:22.380

Well, this one came from my boss, so that didn't sound as though it was going to be too good, and I opened it up, and he said, "Betty, I want to see you as soon as possible." Very important. And I had no idea.

01:42:22.660 - 01:42:33.480

I thought I'd done everything perfectly. But as I told you, the purser gets the rap for anything wrong the steward or stewardess might do. So I went in and my boss said, "Let me tell you what happened.

01:42:33.700 - 01:42:48.780

Weren't you on flight blah, blah to London?" I said, "Yeah." Well, one passenger, and it was a little old lady of course, had gotten in the berth, had taken a sleeping pill, had a cup of tea and a sleeping pill, went sound asleep, and it

01:42:48.720 - 01:43:07.860

over on my steward's side of the plane, of course, and he missed her somehow. He didn't get to wake her up. And the next thing she knew, she was in a huge big hanger in the plane still on her berth, and here were some man's legs. One of the mechanics was on the wing right next to her, and it scared her to death. She heard some banging when he was

01:43:08.240 - 01:43:25.260

using his hammer or whatever he was doing. And she was terrified, and she finally, you closed the curtain again and got dressed and went in. I do not know whose office she went in and said she could not believe she was back on the ground, a very irate passenger.

01:43:26.140 - 01:43:40.300

So that is one story I remember. Of course, it was all blamed on me. Kelly: In the chronology of what you did, where does the being a stewardess fit in? Steele: 1948 to 1952.

01:43:42.400 - 01:44:00.240

Now we're back at Aspen, and you're up on the top of the mountain. I told you, and I met this ex-wife. Then I would go back to New York. I had several vacations out here in Aspen while I was still a stewardess.

01:44:00.280 - 01:44:12.720

They liked to give us winter vacations. Most everybody, most of the employees liked to get summer trips. Because I love to ski, I was very happily able to come to Aspen. I met Art.

01:44:12.800 - 01:44:26.380

It took us quite a while to get married, like six years. I had my friends, he had his, and we'd have a few dates, but nothing too exciting. Do you remember what attracted you to him? Oh, I certainly do.

01:44:27.020 - 01:44:42.060

I was in the lift line one day, and there were two men standing there talking to each other, and they each wore a cardboard sign around their neck. And the sign said, "We are the 2281 Club. If you think we're attractive, we are available."

01:44:42.060 - 01:44:53.000

One of them was Art and the other was a best friend of his. And I thought, "Well, they're both pretty attractive, but I think this one is more than the other even." And that was the way we met.

01:44:53.920 - 01:45:06.880

And we just had his 90th birthday party just about two weeks ago. And somebody asked me, the kids and I were each up on the stage for about two minutes each telling little stories about art. Somebody wanted to know how we met, and I told them that.

01:45:08.740 - 01:45:19.300

What was he doing at Aspen? He couldn't ski when he first came here. He learned to ski after he got here. I used to ski very fast.

01:45:19.400 - 01:45:34.080

I won't say I was a good skier, but I used to go extremely, well, very fast. It was no fun standing around and waiting for a beginner who fell down about every ten feet or hundred feet or whatever. But then he got to be a very good skier.

01:45:34.200 - 01:45:45.600

We've come full circle. We both quit skiing now, actually. But he became a much better skier than I had ever been. So you met him before you moved to Aspen?

01:45:45.780 - 01:45:55.360

Oh, yeah. He had come here. He was from Minnesota, and he didn't like the climate there at all. I think it was when he was waiting to get out of the service.

01:45:56.480 - 01:46:10.440

He was at Camp Hale in Leadville, and a lot of the guys there were talking about skiing and Aspen. And so Art came up here and he loved it, and he built a little house, not this one, but a little house by the edge of town.

01:46:11.620 - 01:46:24.360

And he had that when I first met him, I believe. We lived there about a year before we moved out here. So after you met him, you went back to New York and worked? Worked with Pan Am.

01:46:24.420 - 01:46:36.720

I stayed with them four years. So on your vacations then, when you would come back, you would date Art? Yeah. He had three girlfriends all named Betty at one point, so he couldn't go wrong.

01:46:36.860 - 01:46:56.340

Betty darling, that's about all it took. So when you moved out here, how did Art feel about that? Oh, he, that's, I guess, I think he had built his house already, I'm pretty sure. And so we got married and stayed here ever since.

01:46:56.480 - 01:47:05.860

Kelly: Tell me about your wedding. Did your family come? Klemski: No, we really didn't quite do an eloping. We had one of his best friends and his wife.

01:47:06.080 - 01:47:17.640

Yeah, it was almost like eloping. Art was working very hard, traveling all the time. We got married in Tulsa, Oklahoma. We were going to get married in Ponca City, but I thought that would ruin my family.

01:47:17.780 - 01:47:29.520

They never heard of Ponca City. How did you choose Tulsa? Well Art was working there and we just decided enough fooling around, this has been six years or whatever, it just seemed like a good thing to do.

01:47:30.620 - 01:47:43.600

We were both, we were the oldest living parents probably of kids as young as we have today. That was my little one you met a few minutes ago. Then had he met your family before you married? No, not till after.

01:47:44.280 - 01:47:54.380

Then when did you meet his family? I can't quite remember when. His dad was dead when we got married, but his mother was a wonderful person. He had two sisters.

01:47:56.510 - 01:48:12.760

Do you recall when he met your family? Very shortly after we were married, we went back and I showed off my new husband. My mom and dad liked him immediately. They never cared much for the other son-in-law.

01:48:12.760 - 01:48:26.280

It's been a problem, and the other son-in-law did everything to try and ingratiate himself with my parents, and they just never were that fond of him. Art never did a thing, and they just loved him. Kelly: Then after, did you have a honeymoon?

01:48:26.980 - 01:48:39.520

Klemski: Not to speak of. I can't remember, because he was working all the time. He has the same job today that he did when we got married. He's been with his company sixty-four years, I think, and they're still paying him.

01:48:41.960 - 01:48:56.980

In fact, he has a teleconference, I think, on Tuesday this week. The company is based in Minnesota. Kelly: How long did you stay in Tulsa before? Beall: Before we got married or after?

01:48:56.980 - 01:49:04.300

Kelly: No, after you got married. Beall: Oh, probably a few days. I mean, he was moved from one place. He had, I think there were four states or five states.

01:49:04.400 - 01:49:18.100

He had Oklahoma, Colorado, New Mexico. Texas was gigantic, as you know. And now they have maybe, I don't know, five salesmen in Texas. The company has grown very, very fast.

01:49:18.960 - 01:49:30.440

Kelly: So as they would move him, would you move with him? Steele: No, no. His base was always Aspen, and he would get in his little baby blue Cadillac and drive, and he'd be gone three weeks at a time, or it just depends.

01:49:30.560 - 01:49:38.400

Kelly: Okay. And would you stay here in Aspen while he was gone on his trip? Steele: On occasion. I can remember our first trip, however.

01:49:38.460 - 01:49:52.860

I had the Navy on here. He came back from India with a bad taste in his mouth about flying. I guess his trips were really hard and kind of frightening, and he didn't like it at all.

01:49:55.800 - 01:50:08.180

But I had this little plane that I just brought along, kind of like part of my dowry. I didn't want to sell it. Heavens forbid I quit flying. So the first maybe a few days after we were back in Aspen, he had a trip to make.

01:50:09.100 - 01:50:23.540

And we seemed to have had a major misunderstanding about how this trip was going to work out. He put the luggage in the little, actually quite a big Cadillac and away we went. And he started to drive right past the airport. And I said, "Art, where are you going?"

01:50:24.380 - 01:50:31.540

He said, "Don't you remember, honey? I told you we're going to Wichita. And we'll get there tomorrow night or whatever. We'll stay, I don't know, where, halfway."

01:50:31.540 - 01:50:41.920

It was a twelve, fourteen hour trip, I guess. I said, "Oh no, I don't like cars. I don't want any part of this. We must have misunderstood something."

01:50:41.920 - 01:50:57.360

I said, "We've got my airplane right there in the airport." Well, I must say it was a day like today. There wasn't a cloud in the sky and luckily for me, all the way to Wichita was beautiful. It just changed our whole life because it was the easiest trip.

01:50:57.460 - 01:51:12.380

It wasn't a bump, it was just—and we took turns flying, as I remember, and landed in Wichita in, I don't know, three hours or four or whatever it took. I think we might have made a fuel stop somewhere. He decided it wasn't so bad.

01:51:13.340 - 01:51:33.880

But neither one of us liked that Navy on out here, even when we got to the flat country. So we sold that and we got a Cessna, a 180 Cessna, which is a very good mountain aircraft. Kelly: Right. And then, he would be away on trips when you did not go with him.

01:51:34.300 - 01:51:44.140

How did you occupy your time? Beall: Well, I got pregnant shortly thereafter, so that took care of occupying my time pretty much. I went on some trips with him.

01:51:45.620 - 01:52:01.420

It was unusual for me to go, especially when I had two children and three children. But I had some wonderful live-in nannies or babysitters. One of the trips that I went on with them was to finish up getting my air transport rating.

01:52:01.960 - 01:52:24.120

I had passed Sarinton when I was with Pan Am. They were kind enough to let me go to their ground school, which was exceedingly hard. Every one of their pilots had to pass their ground school or they couldn't fly for them. The FAA test was notoriously—it's the top one there is—and I heard that it was

01:52:25.040 - 01:52:40.220

very tough. I just sailed right through it because of having been to Pan Am. Much better than trying to do it on your own or go to a classroom. And then I found out that my written test was only valid for six months.

01:52:41.290 - 01:52:52.600

And I don't know who told me that. I looked at the fine print, and that was true. And it was getting to be about four or five months at that point. So I wanted to take the flight test and have my license.

01:52:53.760 - 01:53:06.960

And I heard about a school in Fort Worth, Texas. It was Meacham Field, that is supposed to be just tops for training. And I wanted to do it in a DC-3. I'm not sure now why I picked that, but I did.

01:53:08.080 - 01:53:22.000

At least I would be qualified on that type aircraft. So I called them and yes, they had a vacancy in their next class. That was wonderful news. And Art had to go on a Texas trip about the same week.

01:53:22.720 - 01:53:39.160

So it worked out well. I got someone to stay with the children. And mostly, he paid business calls, maybe four a day or six, it depended where he was. And I just, as I said, almost never went with him, but this time I was going to be there

01:53:39.480 - 01:53:55.680

probably ten days to get my license. And one day we had made plans to have dinner with some friends and it was, usually I would stay in the hotel or go to a movie or if the wife was a friend of mine we might go shopping or do something while he was working.

01:53:56.880 - 01:54:15.120

But this one day, the way the time worked out, one of his customers was Bell Helicopter. So when we got there, he couldn't leave me in town because the place we were having dinner was further on down the road and he wouldn't have had time to go there and pick me up.

01:54:16.160 - 01:54:29.300

So I said, "Well," he said, "Do you want to sit in the car? I had a book or some needlework." I said, "Sure, that's no problem." Then he was just parking the car and he said, "You know, I call on a very nice guy here.

01:54:29.340 - 01:54:43.360

I think you really enjoy meeting him." It was almost the only time I ever met one of his customers. These trips were just not set up that way. I said, "That would be more fun than sitting in the car, sure."

01:54:43.380 - 01:55:03.560

He got in this man's office and he was very nice. He said, "Mrs. Pfister, what brings you to Fort Worth?" on a Friday and I explained. I said, "On Monday I'm starting a ground flight school. Get my transport rating." And he said, "Well, what do you think about helicopters?"

01:55:04.080 - 01:55:21.020

I had no reaction one way or the other. I had nothing against him, but I also wasn't excited. Without even asking if I wanted to, he picked up the phone and he called the flight line and he said, "I have a lady here that's a fixed-wing pilot and I want you to give were riding a helicopter and let her fly it because she is a pilot.

01:55:23.000 - 01:55:38.480

So I can still remember I was wearing a very tight, very narrow, I guess is a better word, black skirt, high heels, all dressed for that dinner that night. Well, they took me out to the flight line and they had to boost me in the helicopter, had to take my shoes off.

01:55:39.800 - 01:55:54.420

And I guess I thought we'd fly maybe five or ten minutes. Well, anyway, the pilot took me out to their practice area and let me try it. It's crazy when you've never flown one before. It's exciting, but it's difficult, which is why it's fun, I think.

01:55:55.780 - 01:56:17.460

About forty minutes later, we came back and Art was there to greet us on the ramp. I still remember watching the blades were still turning, and I was about to ask a question of a pilot, something about an instrument that I'd, you know, rotor RPM or something that was new to me.

01:56:18.660 - 01:56:34.060

And then I think that he had said it was okay to get out of the helicopter, I'm not sure. But anyway, I stepped out with one foot and it just felt as though he grabbed me in the back and the blade was still going and I shouldn't be moving. So I stayed where I was.

01:56:34.780 - 01:56:48.560

What I did was totally put my back out of joint. He didn't grab me, it was that I caught my skirt, my tight skirt on that collective control, and I just wrecked up my back. Here I was on Monday supposed to go to flight school.

01:56:49.440 - 01:57:08.400

Well, I told her I didn't care if I ever flew again except a helicopter. I'm very quick to make up my mind and forget the air transport rating. I couldn't fly at Bell because it was $75 an hour. I don't even know what they charge today, but that was astronomical.

01:57:10.340 - 01:57:28.400

When I went back to his friend's office, he said he knew of a woman up in, actually, Oklahoma City that was flying a machine called a Brantley, which is a pretty bad machine, as it turns out. But she would be charging much less.

01:57:29.240 - 01:57:42.180

He called her and asked if she could take a student, and she said yes. The only problem was my back was so out of joint, I'd go to the chiropractor and then I'd have a lesson in the chiropractor. But I just fell in love with helicopters.

01:57:43.400 - 01:58:00.820

In a couple of weeks, I had my helicopter rating and I never did finish up the ATP. Kelly: Then what did you do with that knowledge? Klemski: I have been on the U.S. team flying helicopters in World Competition. I have had my own helicopter.

01:58:00.960 - 01:58:15.140

I have a picture of it that's pretty pretty. It was yellow and pink and blue and all kinds of silly colors. I had it for quite a while based here. Kelly: When you had it here, how did you use it?

01:58:15.380 - 01:58:22.380

Just for fun? Bleasdale: Yeah, really just for fun. I was head of a rescue group here, but I never used my—I'm not a good mountain pilot. I don't have the background.

01:58:23.760 - 01:58:35.640

Not to go up at midnight in a snowstorm with a one-skid landing, that's the kind of flying that's way beyond my capability. Tell me about the rescue squadron. We live in a county called Pitkin.

01:58:35.740 - 01:58:54.040

This is Pitkin County. We had three airplane crashes here in about, I think, a six-month period, roughly about 1962, maybe, something like that. The CAP would come as soon as they could, but if the crash were caused by a snowstorm

01:58:54.140 - 01:59:14.600

or something, the nearest Civil Air Patrol was in Denver. None of them really were familiar with the area around here. By the time we had the third crash, which was some local men, I felt that it might be a good idea to have a group of local pilots here that were totally familiar with the area.

01:59:15.780 - 01:59:27.740

Also, the Civil Air Patrol at that time had a great deal of red tape. They couldn't just get in their plane and go. They had to talk to their lieutenant and then their commander. We were extremely independent.

01:59:28.860 - 01:59:45.640

If some wife said to me, "My husband Jim was flying in today from Gunnison, and he called and said he'd be here at 4 o'clock, and it's 5.30, and he hasn't called, and he's never late if he goes somewhere, he always calls me," one of that kind of conversation, we could be in the air literally in 15 minutes.

01:59:46.520 - 01:59:59.360

And in some of those cases, it makes all the difference if somebody's injured. The longer they're hurt and lying on the ground, the more chance it is that it will be fatal. Kelly: Then how did you get this organized?

01:59:59.360 - 02:00:16.840

Maggie: Well, I just picked what I had three men here that were sort of the, I guess you'd call it the board of air rescue. I kind of founded it, and we'd all talk about different ways to operate it. Everybody, no, not everybody, one man didn't have a plane, but the others did.

02:00:18.540 - 02:00:30.220

And then we got some ladies to help work in the office, so we didn't have to worry too much about phone calls. That was always very time-consuming. And now it's still going on.

02:00:30.260 - 02:00:45.700

I would say there are probably twenty pilots in the group, something like that. The cream of the crop are the local guys. Kelly: Could you tell me about one specific mission that stands out in your mind? Maggie: Yeah, one with some kids, I think.

02:00:45.760 - 02:01:02.580

I'll never forget. a family from Oklahoma, I believe Oklahoma City, and they weren't pilots, but they had chartered a plane to come here. It was a mom and dad and four kids, I guess, plus a pilot, some kind of twin Cessna.

02:01:04.340 - 02:01:17.720

They had thought they had hired the best pilot and the best airplane and so forth for the charter. Well, they have cousins or relatives who live here in Aspen. Again, they became overdue and it was in the wintertime.

02:01:20.660 - 02:01:36.960

These relatives got very concerned. Pretty soon we were sure that the airplane was down somewhere, and then you have to start backtracking to see when it was last heard from on the radio and so forth. I can't remember all the details.

02:01:41.480 - 02:02:00.140

Anyhow, there's a little ski area down near Glenwood, and I've never skied there, but I guess it's relatively small. But a family from Denver had been skiing there, and when it came out on the TV and the news that night, this airplane with, I guess, seven of them all told on board, was missing this

02:02:00.200 - 02:02:13.600

one little boy, and he was about eight years old. But he was a real aviation fanatic. He had pictures of planes all over his bedroom walls. He told his mom and dad he'd been riding the chairlift at this little place in Glenwood

02:02:13.680 - 02:02:29.480

the day before when the plane was missing. He said, "You know, I was on the lift, and I'm mom and dad, and I looked out and I saw this big cloud of snow over in the next hill over, and I heard this big loud noise." His brother was looking the other way and didn't see it at least.

02:02:31.340 - 02:02:41.560

Then he got off the lift and he joined his family and he didn't think any more about it. But he heard them talking at dinner about this missing airplane. The moral of this story is never underestimate kids.

02:02:43.380 - 02:02:57.200

The Civil Air Patrol, who was really operating the search as well as we were, called. We got the kid's name because I think his dad called in and said, "You know, my son may know where that airplane is. He says he saw the Big Clap Snail."

02:02:57.200 - 02:03:12.380

We'll make a long story short. I got permission the next day from his mother, which wasn't easy, to take him up in a helicopter so he could point out exactly where he'd been on the chairlift and where he had seen what he thought could be the airplane.

02:03:14.280 - 02:03:26.020

All of a sudden, we saw a glint of metal. I was not flying, I was just an observer. Would you believe, it was a little boy about six or seven years old on the ground waving to us.

02:03:28.120 - 02:03:45.080

The plane was all in pieces in the trees and it was a real mess, but here was this little guy waving. They had some snowmobiles that were out searching too, and they weren't too far away, but they were so darn noisy, and the helicopters were relatively noisy too, that they didn't hear.

02:03:45.240 - 02:03:56.620

This child afterwards said he'd been yelling when the snowmobile noise stopped, but nobody heard him. Well, anyway, we got some snowmobile radio contact right away, and within maybe twenty minutes, they were right there with him.

02:03:58.120 - 02:04:11.420

They found his brother, who was about eleven years old, still alive inside, but kind of pinned in. Then another brother was dead, a sister was dead, the mother and father were dead, and the pilot was dead.

02:04:11.560 - 02:04:22.780

So there were about five dead, and these two little boys were alive. They brought them out on the snowmobiles. They managed to get the back of the plane open, so the one little guy could not be pinned in anymore.

02:04:24.200 - 02:04:37.680

We flew him up to the hospital. I had the littlest one on my lap, and the older one was hurt worse. He had a badly broken leg. I know both boys, I remember, had on these kind of macrame material bracelets.

02:04:37.900 - 02:04:57.420

It was kind of popular with kids, and that caused horrific frostbite because then their arms swelled up, and it was very unfortunate they happened to be wearing those. But I remember the one little boy that was sitting in my lap in the back seat said, "You thing my baby sister wasn't with us because she'd probably be dead too.

02:04:57.580 - 02:05:09.560

We didn't even know there was a baby sister at that point. I went to her wedding here last year and I've stayed in touch with that family there. Aunt and uncle here adopted the two boys. They have about four kids of their own.

02:05:10.580 - 02:05:22.240

I'd see them in the hospital and their grandmother came from Oklahoma. It was something about children that makes it very, very difficult. It's good that the two were rescued. It's sort of a real miracle story.

02:05:22.380 - 02:05:37.120

Kelly: I got to change. I don't know what you looked like before. Not too different. What a wonderful story.

02:05:38.640 - 02:05:53.200

I get thinking about some of the flight things. It's wonderful to remember those, I would think. Well, don't you? You didn't fly after you—

02:05:53.200 - 02:05:57.420

No. Did you miss it a lot? Am I interviewing you? I guess.

02:05:58.460 - 02:06:10.580

Now tell me, Jeannie, did you miss it a lot? I missed it, but I didn't have a choice, I guess. Rolling. Okay.

02:06:11.080 - 02:06:25.620

Of the rescue squadron that you started, are you still involved in any way? No, not a bit. I retired, oh, maybe ten years ago, I would say. But what is it?

02:06:25.920 - 02:06:35.040

Is it still in operation? Oh, yes. That's great. And we worked very closely with a group also based here in Aspen called Mountain Rescue/Aspen.

02:06:35.760 - 02:06:50.780

They did everything except the flying part. They're the guys that really did the hard work on the ground, climbing mountains, and again in the summer or the winter at any time. I can still remember sometimes we would get phone calls.

02:06:51.020 - 02:07:00.960

They'd always start with me at Air Rescue. If I was out of town, they'd go to the next name on the list. The sheriff's department would call, say, at two o'clock in the morning and say they just found out there's a plane overdue.

02:07:01.140 - 02:07:16.280

A lot of them were daytime, but Art would roll over and go back to sleep, and I'd have to get dressed and get the office work started and get the pilots lined up to fly at first light. Were you also called on for other type rescue missions?

02:07:16.280 - 02:07:31.900

Yes, we were. If there was an overdue skier or snowmobile, a lot of people were starting cross-country skiing then, and people that really didn't have the equipment or the knowledge to be out in the backcountry, maybe just by themselves or just a couple together.

02:07:32.840 - 02:07:50.760

And they'd start out and again not get where they were meant to be and be overdue. Something that seems as simple as a broken ski tip or a sprained ankle that's not life-threatening can become life-threatening when you can't travel anymore. So there were a bunch of mountain climbers, some of them would fall.

02:07:50.780 - 02:08:08.400

I think people were having more leisure time and non-qualified for the outdoors. Kelly: At the time you were working with this squadron, what type of equipment did you have available? Steele: Everybody flew their own aircraft.

02:08:08.820 - 02:08:26.540

Depending on the situation, we would use, say—we only had one or two people that had twin engine—and they would be our radio relay. They might circle high at say 10,000 or 12,000, stay in the valley and relay. Because sometimes the other search aircraft would be flying very low, and if you get over

02:08:26.760 - 02:08:40.380

a hill here, as you know, the radio is line of sight. We would lose radio contact with our searchers, but this twin engine could be up there and be a relay station. Kelly: Was yours the only helicopter ever involved?

02:08:40.940 - 02:08:58.160

Steele: No, I didn't use mine for the rescue work at all. We would almost in every case hire a helicopter, which was very expensive. I think about the time I quit, we were paying $600 or $700 an hour. The best combination in my mind you could possibly have, and it applies today as much

02:08:58.260 - 02:09:08.040

as twenty years ago, is a llama helicopter for work in the mountains, and with a good llama pilot. That would be the best I could hope for. Where would you get these?

02:09:08.690 - 02:09:24.660

Usually from Denver, Fort Collins or Denver. It would normally take them about an hour or a little over that to get here. If the weather was really bad, sometimes they would have weather problems. But we saved, I think, according to people who were injured and that we got to within,

02:09:24.780 - 02:09:33.940

say, twenty-four hours, something like thirty lives, thirty-two lives while I was doing it. So it was worth it. And we spent hours training and trying to practice.

02:09:34.200 - 02:09:50.900

And we'd have an ELT, you know what they are, an emergency locator transmitter. We would hide one here when this was just practice training and see if the search aircraft could find it and how long it took them. It takes a lot of practice to stay sharp.

02:09:51.260 - 02:10:10.420

Sometimes we'd have, oh, two searches in a year, other times none. I mean, there was no figure you could average out, really. When your children were growing up, Betty, what of their activities were you involved with?

02:10:11.960 - 02:10:18.760

At school or— Betty: Yeah, pretty much everything they were doing. Kelly: PTA? Betty: No, no PTA.

02:10:20.660 - 02:10:40.040

Kelly: How about any of their activities that required out-of-town trips? Were you ever involved with that? Did any of them become interested in flying? Steele: Not at all.

02:10:40.800 - 02:10:54.380

They were in the airplane from the time they were born, probably. Every summer, my husband would go on a trip called the Roundup Riders of the Rockies. He did it for years. It consists of about 150 men on horseback.

02:10:55.280 - 02:11:04.640

They camp out every night for a week. It's not exactly roughing it. They usually had white tablecloths and they had big trucks that would meet them at the end of every day.

02:11:07.640 - 02:11:21.100

When he would be on his roundup trip, it's about a maybe ten-day thing altogether, I could have the airplane. By then we had a twin Cessna and it was pretty nice. I would always put the girls in and we'd go to some, what I thought would be a fun

02:11:21.180 - 02:11:37.560

place to go, whether it was to Disneyland or go to Cape Cod. I still remember trying to wake them all up when we flew over Niagara Falls. I thought, "If I ever smell another peanut butter sandwich in this airplane." I would wake them up and say, "Hey, kids," and I would fly as low as I could over there.

02:11:38.220 - 02:11:48.860

"Oh, Mom, let us sleep." They were so blasé. Other kids would have been very excited, but it is kind of the old story when you have something in your own backyard, it is no longer interesting.

02:11:49.340 - 02:11:58.740

Kelly: Were your kids, when they were growing up, able to visit their grandparents? Oh, yes, we did every summer. Well, not every year, but just about, I guess. We'd take them back to Vermont.

02:12:02.140 - 02:12:15.760

I remember one year when Art and I, we just had the oldest girl at that point. She was probably a year old, maybe a little more. She was an abasinant in the back seat. We landed at Westchester where my parents were to meet us.

02:12:16.700 - 02:12:26.720

The tower wouldn't let me park in the closer place to the car parking lot. They were full. So they put me away at the end of a line. And it was hot, it was probably in June or July.

02:12:27.900 - 02:12:34.940

And she, Susan, was sound asleep. And I said, "All right, why don't we just leave her here? She's fine. We'll just, you know, leave one window open a little."

02:12:34.960 - 02:12:42.440

She couldn't crawl yet. We didn't think she'd get out of the bassinet. And he said, "Fine." And I said, "We'll walk down and find my mom and dad."

02:12:42.440 - 02:12:54.000

And it was a long way, not as long as my driveway, but pretty far away. And we walked down and there they were and they barely wanted to see us. They wanted to—the first time they'd seen the baby, wanted to know where she was and didn't we bring her?

02:12:54.040 - 02:13:08.020

And I said, "Yes, she's in the—you left her all by herself in the airplane?" And of course, we had to go right back and grab her and show her. She was still sleeping when we got back there. And when did you sell your last airplane?

02:13:08.980 - 02:13:26.500

Well, the last thing I sold was my helicopter, and that's got to be ten years ago, I think. About ten or maybe twelve years ago. Do you miss the flying? Oh, I missed the helicopter a lot, but I don't as much now as I did.

02:13:28.300 - 02:13:45.500

At the present time, what are your activities? Well, just kind of enjoying being lazy, I guess. Another thing I did, well, I've been very involved with the hospital heliport. We were the first one in Colorado.

02:13:46.200 - 02:13:57.460

Now just about every hospital practically has their own. I instigated that. Again, a story goes with that. We had a mountain climber that got hurt.

02:13:59.040 - 02:14:09.920

They called in a helicopter. He was very badly hurt up in Maroon Bells here. They called in a helicopter to try and rescue him. His comrades came down and told the sheriff they needed help.

02:14:11.300 - 02:14:25.880

By then it was, oh, maybe, I don't know, quite far into the night, eleven o'clock or midnight. The pilot grabbed a doctor from the hospital and went up there to the site. They had left some flares or something to mark it.

02:14:26.770 - 02:14:46.080

He managed to land and loaded—we had litters on the outside of the helicopter in those days—and he loaded the victim in a litter and went back and landed at the hospital. And when they got out, they found he had died from the time they picked him up. I thought that was really a shame.

02:14:46.160 - 02:14:57.800

The next morning, the pilot, somebody with a car, some local person, had taken him to a motel and he'd spent the night. What was left of it? The next morning, he said he went to get his helicopter.

02:14:58.500 - 02:15:12.400

He couldn't have made that landing at the hospital in the daytime. There were overhead cables all over the place and TV wires. He said it was just plain, you know, the grace of God that he managed to land in one piece. He never saw any of the wires at night.

02:15:13.220 - 02:15:29.560

It was just a parking lot to land in the EDGEO. So it struck me that we were probably going to get more situations like that, and the hospital should have its own landing spot. I got all these local guys with their big yellow machines, and they buried all the wires,

02:15:29.720 - 02:15:42.860

which was expensive, and they put down some asphalt. We've had a heliport, well now the new hospital is ten years old. How did you go about arranging that? City council?

02:15:43.540 - 02:15:58.020

Everything county commissioners more than city council. But here you say the word "hospital" and everybody turns out. I think the first heliport cost something like $5,000, and that was an asphalt bill from the guy in Grand Junction.

02:15:59.200 - 02:16:15.500

Everything else was done locally and done for free for the hospital. So I still consider the one here my heliport, and I go up and check it and still find out if some of the lights have burned out because nobody else seems to notice. They use it about 25 times a year, average two a month.

02:16:16.820 - 02:16:31.280

And some of them are very serious. Great many today are pregnant women who are having problem pregnancies or newborn babies that need care that can't be given. We have a marvelous hospital for a town this size.

02:16:32.040 - 02:16:44.340

But they do have to fly. I mean, sometimes, once we had a big military helicopter come in and picked up a military sergeant who just had a broken thumb, I mean, they vary from something very minor to extremely life-threatening.

02:16:47.400 - 02:17:00.080

Tell me about your children. Well, they're all girls, and two out of three are married. One has never married. One you met a little while ago, and she has two little boys, and they live in Denver.

02:17:02.340 - 02:17:19.060

She's just in general busy being a mom. Another one lives here in Aspen, and she's the one we left alone in the back of the airplane and worried my mother. She and her husband also have two little boys, and he's been a painting contractor for

02:17:19.280 - 02:17:30.560

years. I think he's kind of easing out of that now. He's getting into some real estate work. The other one has lived in the state of Washington for a couple of years, but my little bad penny

02:17:30.620 - 02:17:45.840

is coming home to Roost, and I'm very glad. That's about all I can think of about the kids. Nobody interested in flying at all. Kelly: As you look back over your life, and you've done so many interesting things,

02:17:46.580 - 02:18:02.720

what is the one thing that you're most proud of? The other thing I did not mention to you is getting a control tower at the airport here when we were not anywhere near the normal criteria. I worked on that a lot.

02:18:02.800 - 02:18:12.700

I went to Washington and I yelled and screamed and intentionally became obnoxious. The FAA sent people. We have two-way traffic. It is an uphill-downhill runway.

02:18:14.000 - 02:18:26.780

So the possibility of a midair was getting stronger every minute. We had some real near-misses. Kelly: I know I have left out a lot of things. Is there anything else that you can think of?

02:18:26.890 - 02:18:39.040

Steele: I think air rescue and the heliport and the control tower are the three things I've done locally that have taken a great deal of my time, and it's been just wonderful working on them. I've had great people helping me.

02:18:40.540 - 02:19:01.240

Kelly: Have I left out anything that you can think of that you would like to tell us? I think I've talked entirely too much. I've been giving some flight scholarships, yes, and that's turning out to be real fun, vicariously if I'm through with my flying at least.

02:19:01.540 - 02:19:15.760

It's fun to see the kids. Tell me why you started that. Well, just as I say, I've had such pleasure out of flying my whole life. So I wanted to maybe see some kids.

02:19:15.840 - 02:19:26.380

There's very little available to them here, and it's so expensive. So I just wanted to see some kids start flying. And it's turned out beautifully. Three out of four soloed this summer.

02:19:28.700 - 02:19:43.520

So did you start a scholarship fund? I'm going to, actually. I just sort of did it out of my pocket. Last year I sent three kids to Embry-Riddle in Florida and I decided finally, these are

02:19:43.720 - 02:20:00.420

16, 17 year olds, they're really not too happy being, even for three weeks, being away from their families and their friends, and I decided it would be better this year. We have two very good instructors here in Aspen. And I decided, first I was going to try doing it in Grand Junction.

02:20:00.540 - 02:20:14.560

There's a woman that has a flight school that I think very highly of. And then I decided, "No, we'll just try." Because first we only had one instructor here, and he said he couldn't handle over one student's scheduling probably.

02:20:15.960 - 02:20:26.340

But it worked out beautifully. This one girl was the first one to solo and did it just perfectly. You couldn't ask for a better student. How did you select the students?

02:20:26.860 - 02:20:37.360

Well, they had to write essays on why they wanted to win the scholarship. Is this open to all? All high school only. Yeah.

02:20:37.560 - 02:20:53.180

They have to be 16 to solo. That's the FAA rule. So it pretty much meant sophomore, junior, and seniors. So first they'd write an essay, and my thinking was that we, I got about four friends of mine

02:20:53.220 - 02:21:08.920

who were pilots to be judges with me. And I thought, well, we would take, we didn't know if we'd get two applications. This summer I got 12, and I thought we'd take the top three and interview them and maybe give one scholarship.

02:21:09.720 - 02:21:25.220

Well, the essays were fantastic. We finally decided we would interview all 12 of them, 15 minutes apiece. They were very good at their interviews. There was only one that we decided not to go any further with, a girl who came in barefoot.

02:21:25.300 - 02:21:36.000

I decided she didn't have more respect for the judges and the scholarship. I didn't care if she wore sandals. were very casually dressed here. So we knocked her off the list and that still left eleven.

02:21:36.960 - 02:21:52.600

And then we thought we'd narrow that down to five, which we did, and it was really hard. They were all very qualified, we thought. What were the qualities that you were really looking for? Well, a sincere interest in flying and in learning about it.

02:21:52.660 - 02:22:06.000

The idea was to get them to Solo, not to go on any further than that. And solo usually takes, in this altitude and up here, maybe twenty hours, something like that. Can you tell me about one special student?

02:22:07.920 - 02:22:25.880

Well I think the girl in a—well, one maybe was one of the boys who happens to be very—one was very tall, extra tall, like six foot four or six, and one was very short. And this one little guy had already, by the time he came for his interview, gotten a job out at the airport this summer.

02:22:26.460 - 02:22:41.020

We have a great many corporate aircraft, and they all have catering even for, say, a two-hour trip. They usually have sandwiches or fruit or something. His job was to put the fresh food on board and take any ones that were finished with

02:22:41.180 - 02:22:52.880

off and throw them away. We already had that job. I mean, it's about the lowest, practically the lowest job at the airport. But he was 16 years old, and that showed me quite an interest.

02:22:53.860 - 02:23:07.560

The others had summer jobs, but doing all kinds of non-aviation activities. I went out one day, and he had his earmuffs on because you wear them all the time on the ramp, it's so noisy with the jets. He looked like little Mickey Mouse or something.

02:23:07.660 - 02:23:19.460

He's very short in the uniform, his tan shorts and a white shirt. He looked so little. But he'd written a wonderful essay. He was the second one to solo.

02:23:22.220 - 02:23:31.640

I think he did a great job. And then the third one soloed and the fourth had to go to college before he had the time to do it. So three out of four did it.

02:23:32.330 - 02:23:52.440

Have any of them indicated to you that they want to go further? Pretty much, but they're so busy now being seniors or starting college, it's very time-consuming. The one girl, I think in a three-week period she had a lesson every single morning except three, something, because she knew she was leaving for Australia for a year.

02:23:53.320 - 02:24:07.580

They're interesting kids. One girl was very tall, and she's a ballerina, and she dances maybe five or six days a week. I mean, a serious ballerina, not just occasionally. And she's got a 97-something grade point average.

02:24:09.600 - 02:24:22.220

These kids were outstanding. I didn't think I'd get better ones than I did last summer when they went to Florida. And this year was just as good. I think the cream of the crop is applying, because not the average high school student.

02:24:23.560 - 02:24:35.860

Kelly: Does this scholarship fund have a name? Steele: No, it's something I just started. This is the second year I've done that. For two years, I sent kids to space camp in Alabama.

02:24:36.840 - 02:24:53.640

When I really thought about it, it seemed to me it's much more likely today that a kid might have a job in the future in airplanes than to get in the space program, although Although it's lots of fun, I've been there myself. They finally had an adult—of course, the grownups always pay for their kids to go.

02:24:54.700 - 02:25:10.100

So many grownups were interested, they started a grownup space camp. I had a wonderful time doing that. What did you learn at space camp? They had us on a simulated mission, and you had a chance.

02:25:10.100 - 02:25:21.220

It was set up to be on the ground for one part of the mission and in the cockpit for the other. And they picked me as the first commander because I happened to be a pilot, so they put me in the left seat.

02:25:21.720 - 02:25:35.580

And the books, I was taken back to the motel at night. It was about three days of the flight part. And you just got to find where all those switches and buttons were. I got so nervous about it, because if you missed by even five seconds or maybe one second,

02:25:35.660 - 02:25:50.680

you screwed up that part of the mission. And then they had the mission specialists working on the ground, so we took turns, one in the air and one on the ground. And then you had some zero-g stuff and all kinds of equipment that the astronauts take

02:25:50.760 - 02:26:01.580

tests on. It's a great program. I think they do it in three places now. Huntsville, Alabama, and I think there's one in Florida, I'm not sure.

02:26:02.720 - 02:26:11.520

I don't know where the other one is. If it became available, would you want to go into space? Oh, I'd go tomorrow morning. I'd go tonight.

02:26:12.200 - 02:26:20.540

Why wait until tomorrow? Oh, yeah. I would love to. I think my chance of getting back in one piece is 99.99 percent.

02:26:21.540 - 02:26:37.960

I know there have been problems, and there certainly are going to be some in the future. In fact, I can't remember if that last space shuttle has now gone up and docked with the space station or not. They were going this week, I think.

02:26:38.920 - 02:26:50.260

I haven't been reading my papers very carefully. Which member of the crew would you want to be? Commander. I mean, I don't have any of that background at all.

02:26:51.000 - 02:27:08.240

I have a very good friend, and she's another helicopter pilot. We all have—all the lady helicopter pilots as a group are known as the Whirly Girls. I'm not so sure I think the name is great. Some of the military women that are flying these monstrous big Chinooks and huge helicopters,

02:27:08.460 - 02:27:23.060

and it's their career, do not like the name Whirly Girl. I can see it's kind of maybe a little too frivolous or cute. But the woman that started it put it all together about, oh gosh, I don't know how many years ago.

02:27:23.700 - 02:27:36.360

I've had my license since '62, I think. And everybody gets a number. And we have something like 25 countries represented now. It's very international.

02:27:37.360 - 02:27:49.600

My number is 52, and Art would always tease me. I was the 52nd member. We're up to about 1,100 now. We get together once a year at the big helicopter show, and the Whirly Girls always have a meeting.

02:27:51.140 - 02:28:04.180

Everybody tells what they've done in the last year. It's simply blow you away. Some of them fly for the Los Angeles Police Department. One good friend of mine flies for Customs in Tucson, and they're flying incredible

02:28:04.300 - 02:28:14.560

equipment. If it's out there, they're flying it. just kind of playing around with a little small one the way I did. That's absolutely nothing compared to what they're flying today.

02:28:15.720 - 02:28:24.860

Let me ask you this. Do you think the WASP sort of paved the way? Oh, I do. I think—I don't know to what extent.

02:28:25.120 - 02:28:41.200

I'm not sure. If it hadn't been for the WASP program, I don't know whether it would have radically changed the attitude towards women in aviation today. As you know, women are flying off aircraft carriers in the Navy.

02:28:42.000 - 02:28:58.660

They are now, I believe, allowed to go into combat. I'm pretty sure, I think in Desert Storm, there were—in fact, I know one was a woman helicopter pilot. And I'm not sure if that would have come at the same time or taken longer if it hadn't

02:28:58.740 - 02:29:08.900

been for the WASP. I think people get a little carried away. I know I didn't like hearing that those military women were the first ones to ever fly military aircraft.

02:29:09.140 - 02:29:24.360

That was sort of definitely a misunderstanding, because the WASPs certainly did. But I've never been, what's the word, belligerent about it. I must say I had nothing to do with all the work some of the WASPs did to get our military benefits.

02:29:24.960 - 02:29:45.140

I'd have had a Learjet rating and a shake if I could have gotten it through the GI Bill. But I didn't work hard to do it, and I'm very proud of the girls who did, the women who—and I think it's—I know I could have a military funeral if I wished to. I don't remember what other benefits there are quite now.

02:29:47.060 - 02:30:07.340

But I think one of the things that would have been by far the number one most important—and I don't know if you'd agree with me or not, but a great many of the women have medical problems today, those who haven't passed away. And if they could have had GI benefit or veteran benefits, pardon me, veteran hospital, it

02:30:07.340 - 02:30:25.740

could have made an enormous difference for some of them, because some just could not afford the health care that they needed. What is your personal opinion of Jacqueline Cochran and the WASP program? I think if it hadn't been for Jackie, I think she was the only one that had the clout

02:30:25.740 - 02:30:41.460

to get it organized and put it together. She knew the right generals, etc. So I think we owe the entire thing to her. But somehow, and I think usually I would say I don't hold grudges, but boy that night

02:30:41.540 - 02:30:54.240

my brother was killed and she knew it and just kept me waiting another hour, hour and a half. There was no reason for it and that was about the worst night of my life. Because I knew already just with nobody telling me what had happened.

02:30:54.780 - 02:31:10.780

I don't know why she treated it in the way she did. I think it was very poorly handled. I know that seems silly to remember something like that that long ago. I think she did a fine job of organizing the WASP.

02:31:10.820 - 02:31:26.060

I don't think she personally had many women friends. I envy her greatly for her record setting and some of the aircraft she got to fly. I think with the same contacts that she had, quite a few other women could have done that perhaps.

02:31:26.980 - 02:31:42.340

What do you feel the legacy of the WASP will be? That is a good question. I just don't know. I think it's wonderful that you're working on this project to try and have the information

02:31:42.620 - 02:32:00.260

gathered together before all the WASPs are dead. We are dropping fast. And have it available to future students and kids that maybe would never have heard of. What got me very interested also, and it was probably ten years ago, I'm not sure of

02:32:00.280 - 02:32:16.420

my times, I don't know how much you know about the group called the Night Witches in Russia. I'd never heard of them at first, and I've been to Russia I think three times now, and actually met one of the Night Witches and have read a lot of literature about them.

02:32:18.320 - 02:32:34.200

I didn't even know that was going on. I think some of our women pilots in the WASP that were ferrying fighters would take them up to Anchorage, Alaska, for example, and turn them over to the Russians there. They did meet some Russian women pilots, but I never heard a word about it until maybe

02:32:34.280 - 02:32:50.880

ten years ago. And then when you hear what those women did in these little, like a little stearman or something with bombs wired underneath and maybe ten thirty-minute trips in one evening. I have some books about them and some literature that's just amazing.

02:32:51.100 - 02:33:05.840

We WASP, I mean sure, all we did was—nobody was shooting at us. They were being shot at and routinely killed in combat. Kelly: Betty, what do you think your legacy will be? Steele: I don't even know how to answer that question.

02:33:06.340 - 02:33:22.500

I've just had a wonderful life, and I guess you asked me earlier what my reason for doing the scholarships is. I'm just kind of trying to pass on some of the great love of aviation and the pleasure that I've received from it, all the different things I've had, to some of the younger people

02:33:22.580 - 02:33:43.320

here in town. If you could say something to your grandchildren or to children in future generations that might inspire them to excel or to be able to achieve something. What would you say to them?

02:33:44.180 - 02:33:57.200

You're talking about something in aviation or in any field. In life. How would you encourage them? I just like to put as many things on a platter, I guess the way I'd explain it, in front

02:33:57.200 - 02:34:10.380

of them and then let them make their own choices. But I'd like kids here to know something. In fact, today I think it's more common than not. I think if you took a hundred high school seniors here in Aspen, especially a very affluent

02:34:10.480 - 02:34:25.000

community like this, what, at least 80, maybe 85 percent of them have flown on the airlines with their parents going to places like Disney World or visit their family or whatever it could be. I mean, it's more common than not.

02:34:25.000 - 02:34:38.380

my figure, I just pulled it out of the air. But it's not that expensive compared to the rest of the money people spend on vacations and trips. I think most kids today, maybe 80 percent is too high.

02:34:39.380 - 02:34:56.340

And we certainly have some families here in Aspen that could never afford it. I mean, we have a great spread of backgrounds and fathers' jobs and so forth. a lot of single parents, and those are ones that are really unable to do any flying on their vacations probably.

02:34:58.200 - 02:35:14.380

But I just would like to see children exposed to—my tunnel vision all my life has been aviation. I'm not a well-rounded person. I think if you were to ask me what I miss most in life that I never had any knowledge

02:35:14.440 - 02:35:33.880

of, it probably would be music, and I don't know why I say that, but I'd love to be able to play the piano, enough for my own pleasure. I don't want to be a concert pianist, but I have no background in music at all. I guess the only background I have is aviation, but it's just my whole heart and soul have

02:35:33.900 - 02:35:50.080

been in it for years and years. And even now, I'm reading aviation magazines every week, and I haven't lost my interest. I went to Oshkosh to the big fly-in about three years ago was the last time. I probably won't go anymore, there's so much walking involved.

02:35:53.360 - 02:36:11.120

I certainly notice what's parked on the ramp out here, even if I don't know what some of them are. You certainly have succeeded. What are the qualities in your life that you possess that you think have made you successful?

02:36:12.520 - 02:36:29.600

A supportive husband for one thing, a very major thing. I know a bunch of the WASPs whose husbands—in fact, I have one in mind in particular, and she is a helicopter pilot too. We helicopter types tend to be a little cliquish, I think, because we are definitely in the

02:36:29.700 - 02:36:44.360

minority. I don't know how many women airplane pilots there are today. And the helicopter ones, our group runs from, I guess it's eighteen years old to—this that's flying is in her 80s, and she's still an active pilot.

02:36:45.980 - 02:36:53.540

>> Okay. I'm going to get a battery. >> Keep your hope. Time out, huh? >> Well, no, we're still rolling.

02:36:53.660 - 02:37:05.700

>> We're rolling. >> Well, let me put it a different way. Some of the children who will be watching this in 25 or 50 years from now, what are the qualities

02:37:06.260 - 02:37:23.060

that you feel are important that they think about or that they strive for that would make them successful in any realm of life? Is it perseverance that they need? Oh absolutely.

02:37:23.320 - 02:37:42.960

I guess now I think I can, okay. What I found all through my life in talking with people and they meet me and they find out that I'm a pilot, I can't tell you how many. I really have no idea, but way high figure, say, "Gee, I wish I'd been able to fly,

02:37:43.060 - 02:38:03.080

but gee, I never had enough money for lessons because it's always been an expensive activity." Or very occasionally, not often, some will say, "I never had the time." If they have plenty of money, sometimes it means they have a very high-powered job and they're a corporate executive of some kind, just don't feel they can make time available

02:38:03.280 - 02:38:24.360

to fit personal flying into their lives. Well, my main belief, and I believe it right down to my toes, is that if you want to do anything in life badly enough, you can do it, you and any other person. If you literally have no money, if you're barely getting your food every day paid for,

02:38:24.910 - 02:38:41.940

I still think there must be some fairy godmother somewhere in your background that's going to help you or you take out a loan at the bank or the one is so often people say I just couldn't afford it. Boy are you lucky that you could and lucky you went in the WASP and got all that.

02:38:41.960 - 02:39:01.600

And sure I've been extremely fortunate but I still maintain that there are many people today who just didn't try hard enough. I think we all set our own priorities and as we go through life and maybe your priority to be an artist, it doesn't have to be aviation, that happened to be mine.

02:39:02.520 - 02:39:21.300

Or maybe a musician, or any field you can think of. And I think if you really want it bad enough, you can do it. Did you ever have any personal contact with Nancy Hartman's love? Never did, and I would certainly have loved it very much to a matter.

02:39:23.660 - 02:39:43.960

And one other question, why did you decide to become a stewardess? Well, very easily, because I did want to do a lot of traveling overseas, and there just were no jobs for women at that time except to stay in one country. You might go to France or Germany or, I don't know, all kinds of places, but you would pretty

02:39:44.160 - 02:39:59.400

much just have a job with a company who had an office there. And as I say, mostly secretarial, which is unfortunately not one of my skills. And I found with Pam and Amos, we had huge -- I flew out of New York for two and a half years.

02:40:01.220 - 02:40:15.660

It was called the Eastern Division. And we would meet the girls from San Francisco, the flight attendants -- well, we were called stewardesses in those days. Our halfway point would be Hong Kong, sometimes Bangkok, but usually Hong Kong.

02:40:16.400 - 02:40:31.040

We would get about three or four days off at each stop, and then we would turn around and fly these twelve-hour flights. After I had been in New York two and a half years, I transferred to San Francisco. So we flew around the world the other direction.

02:40:31.760 - 02:40:42.080

I just loved it. I did a lot of European flights out of New York and not nearly as many in the Pacific. We went to Hawaii. It was always our first stop out of San Francisco.

02:40:43.240 - 02:40:56.200

Once in a great while, we did San Francisco to L.A. I don't know why, but we did that occasionally. And then about a twelve-hour flight to Hawaii and there to Wake Island, and then from Wake to Manila.

02:40:57.660 - 02:41:09.720

It was just such fun to have a variety of trips and to see all kinds of places. I loved it. And then all of a sudden one day, Pan Am went on a big economy drive, and we had served very good food.

02:41:09.760 - 02:41:24.840

I mean, for airline food, I think we did very well. And the passengers didn't complain much. They, you know, seemed to enjoy it. And then all of a sudden, Pan Am went on a big economy drive, and instead of serving

02:41:24.900 - 02:41:43.760

a nice snack with two or three big sandwiches and some olives and pickles and potatoes, whatever you can think of, but something easy to prepare and serve, but all of a sudden were down to about one olive and a little teeny sandwich that even a woman would look at and wonder, "Where's the rest of my snack?"

02:41:43.760 - 02:42:02.980

I don't know, I just thought if I can't be proud of the food that I'm serving, I don't want to work for them anymore. That's sort of what did it when we went on this terrible economy drive. Kelly: Betty, is there anything that we've left out that you would like to tell us?

02:42:02.980 - 02:42:10.440

Boy, I don't think we've left one thing out. I think you know everything about my life. >> I want to thank you. >> Well, you're--

02:42:10.440 - 02:42:17.980

>> This has been a marvelous-- >> Well, thank you for taking the time and trouble to do this project. I think that's great what you and Nancy are doing.

02:42:18.900 - 02:42:25.520

>> Thank you so much. >> And I think I didn't sound very welcoming also when you called today because I thought, "Well, I'm sure they're not coming, aren't they?"

02:42:25.520 - 02:42:32.300

Would have called, you know, and I had about four things going-- >> I'm sorry. >> That's all right. I think it is a great idea to reconfirm.

02:42:32.960 - 02:42:33.640

people feel.