00:00:00.000 - 00:00:10.940

going after you leave Darris Tanner? We're going to Treacle. Back again then. We're going to buy a place

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for a while. Then in September I think we're going to Colorado. And we could go you know to California

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and just sit in one place where there are lots and lots of them. But we're getting funds around Texas Texas first. Okay, I'm Danny. Just feel free to look at her. You don't have to look at me because

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I'm just going to be watching the screen. Okay, I'm Danny Parrish and we're in the home of Betty Fernandez. She's a WASP class 43 W3. We're in Coahoma, Mississippi. It's the 10th of August 2000. Okay, Betty, just tell us who you are and let's tell us. Okay, I'm Betty Archibald Fernandez and I was born November 1st, 1920.

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Maybe I shouldn't have said that. Anyway, my parents were Sherman Archibald and Pearl Huff, and they were born in 1896 and 1894. And let's see.

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And where were you born? Oh, I was born in Chicago, out in the prairies of Chicago, where they would have a great big three or four story building and a block around with nothing but prairies.

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And we would run around and play and climb the trees and chase snakes and have snakes for pets and ride bicycles. And it was really a wide open place to live. My cousin lived there and he had a horse,

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but I didn't ever get to ride his horse. But let's see, it was really nice and I went to Bennett School. - Okay, let's go back and tell me about your brother.

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- Well, my brother was 10 years younger. He wasn't born until I lived, we lived around in the prairies until I was in high school. He was 10 years younger than I was.

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Okay. Betty, could you tell me what the prairies are? They're open, just open fields with grass. Okay. Just...

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What did your dad do there? My father was an accountant. He was a CPA. He graduated from Northwestern University in Chicago, and he was a CPA and an accountant. And my mother was a comparison shopper, and she worked for Marshall Fields in Kroger.

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Well, she worked up until I was out of the WASP, in fact. So she worked all the time and Dad worked all the time. We always had hired girls come up from Morocco, Indiana, and help us out.

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They were always glad to get out of the little town and get in the big city. So we always had help. Let me ask you about your home where you lived.

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Were you out in the country? No. Or were you in town? We were in Chicago, south side of Chicago.

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But it was still prairies. Well, just grass fields, miles of grass field with a three-story building here and a three-story building there. And I had no idea why they were constructed that way. And they used to have a -- each block was lined with trees

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around each block so you knew where you were. In Chicago, we'd get lost in the snow. But anyway, it was wide open. Right. Tell me about starting school. Where did you go to school? Elementary school. My father graduated from Northwestern.

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We lived up near on the lake shore, and then we had to move down south so we could get down to Morocco to visit everybody in Morocco. We lived in a tent, I think, for about a month until they could get the school started so we could get in school, until we could get an apartment.

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That's right. Then we moved into the apartment. But anyway, it was really nice. Every summer we used to go out, get in the car and go up to Michigan and fish and walk

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in the northern Michigan, walking the pine trees, and that's where I learned to love the outdoors and trees. - Right. Do you remember elementary school?

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- Oh, yeah. - Do you remember any of your teachers? - Yes. I remember going in school one time,

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and one teacher put me in the first seat in the first row, which of course I understand now it's archibald, but I didn't know why she did that. And I went up and said, "Mrs. Messer,

00:04:03.250 - 00:04:09.360

"I don't think you want me in the first seat "in the first row." I said, "My sister was ahead of me. "She was real smart and pretty, and I'm not."

00:04:09.360 - 00:04:17.280

She said, "I put you there because I want you there." She was really a good teacher. Mrs. K, I always wrote to my sixth grade teacher until about last year.

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She evidently died because I don't hear from her anymore. She was a beautiful teacher too. - Right. During your early years, Betty,

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what was a Christmas like at your house? - Christmas. I can't remember much of Christmas except I remember one year when I realized

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there was no Santa Claus. I was so happy because I realized that my parents would spend all this money on me instead of Santa Claus. That's what I remember about Christmas.

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Okay. In your early years, what did you do for summer vacations? Run around the prairies. Went up to northern Michigan just for two weeks.

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Just played, rode bikes. Had a friend, Norman. We rode bikes when I was older, just every place. Out to Peasoup Lake and out to the sand dunes and just go all day on bike trips.

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you were growing up, where were your grandparents? They were in Morocco, Indiana. Did you spend a lot of time with your grandparents? Well, my grandfather, one died and they both died, but my grandmothers were still alive.

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Yes, one grandmother, Huff, had to make money so she had a board and we'd all go down to Parlin on her and Grandmother Archibald kind of was isolated, lived by herself on the other end of town that we used to visit sometimes. So they were two entirely different types of people.

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Right. During the wintertime, how would you get to school? Was it-- We plodded through the snow. Okay. Plodded home through the snow.

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Okay. As far as games and things in the wintertime, what would you do? What would you play? Would you skate? Would you ski? What would-- I can't remember. Just outside playing in the snow again. Okay. Then once you got in junior high, do you remember any of your teachers in junior high school?

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You mean high school? Yeah, Fanger. I went to Fanger High School. I remember one botany teacher and one English teacher told me to write a poem. She said, "Write a poem for this contest." So I wrote a poem and I won first place in the senior. Do you remember what the poem was about? Yes, but I don't want to tell you.

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Okay. Do you remember in high school what were your goals? Well, I thought I'd like to be a botany teacher, or poetry, write English, write stories. I always loved to write. I thought I could write.

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Okay. Did you ever enter contests? No. Okay.

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Do you remember any outside activities while you were in high school that you enjoyed? I hated high school. The girls all got dressed up in hoses, silk stockings, and pranced around, and I was running around in half socks and short coats and I didn't have, I didn't like high school.

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I really wanted to quit but I knew I had to finish if I ever wanted to be, do anything at all, had to get my education so I did. I can't remember much of high school. I played in the band. I played the clarinet in the senior band. I used to parade around in a uniform.

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[dog barking] Hey. [off camera] Hi. We're just, I mean we're just having a conversation here. Okay.

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[off camera] And just forget this is here. Well, that's really easy for me to say, isn't it? I want to tell you one thing about high school, whenever you're ready to go again. Okay, we're ready. I want to tell you about in high school.

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I went to Hyde Park High School in Chicago, which is in the better district. Our district was fine. It's more populated. Anyway, I found out that Amelia Earhart had gone to that Hyde Park High School. I even liked aviation then, so I just loved it.

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Then I had to go back to Fanger, and that's when I just hated it, I wanted to quit school after going to Hyde Park for a year. I was in sports and swimming. I went to Fager High School.

00:08:03.280 - 00:08:13.540

I had so many points I was lifeguard for the GAA. I went and said, "Well, I'd like to get my school letter." She said, "Well, you can't because you don't hang around here like the other girls do." I said, "Okay."

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I never got my letter, but I got it from Hyde Park anyway. Anyway, that's the story of my life. You remember the first airplane you saw that— Yes, one crashed.

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We used to go out to Slocum Lake and I saw it crash and burn and that didn't bother me. I thought, "Boy, that's what I want to do." I didn't care. I always figured I'd crash and burn anyway, so it didn't matter.

00:08:35.420 - 00:08:48.340

So from that first time, you loved airplanes. Oh, yes. Well, I used to make little model airplanes. This one, I told you about my brother, broke all my little model airplanes and broke all

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my cap guns. About what age were you when you started making airplanes? Let's see, I must have been 15 when I was making model airplanes and playing with cat guns because he was 10 years younger and he had to be 5 years old in order to break them.

00:09:03.080 - 00:09:23.360

So I was pretty old, but I was still a girl scout. I was out climbing trees and running around. That's probably why I didn't like the girls at high school. In high school, did you compete in any sports like swimming? Well, let's see, they had a posture contest and we walked around for days. There were

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about 2,000 kids in our high school, and I won the senior-- the posture contest. And I can't remember. Probably because I always liked sports so well,

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but I can't remember what else we did, played sports. I remember in the band, but that's all. In the band, would you go out of state? No, we just stayed around, played for local football

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games, wore our khaki uniforms. I always-- I wasn't very good. I always knew when to turn the page, to hurry up play on the next page, so I was always behind.

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[LAUGHTER] Do you remember-- did you have a high school prom? I don't think I went. OK.

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How about your high school graduation? Tell me about that. Well, I remember one across the floor. My aunt bought me a tennis racket.

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That's all I remember about that. I didn't think much about it. Did you like to play-- enjoy playing tennis? Oh, yeah.

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I used to play tennis all the time. What kind of courts did you have then? And we had, let's see, there was some kind of a building. I think it was a school that I could walk to anyway and had to play tennis on the tennis

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courts. When you were in high school or junior high, who were your role models? Who were my role models? Well, I can't remember.

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Oh, I asked you about Vernita Rodriguez in 44 W6. She was one of my friends. I went to junior college and she went right next door to a teacher's college. I wasn't smart enough to get in teacher's college when I took the exam.

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I couldn't do math. But anyway, she majored in math and we were really good friends and we worked at the bank together. And then after I bought my airplane, I sold my airplane to get to Houston.

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Let me go back and ask you, the first time you went out to the airport, what were your intentions? The first time when I got on CPT, I had to take the streetcar to the end of the city, and they picked me up in a car, took me to the airport, and I looked around and got in.

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He said, "This is how you do it," and I did it. I did not know a rudder from a prop, really. He said, "Don't walk into the prop." And I said, "Okay." So that's how -- I didn't know anything.

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How about Brown School? Yes, we had to have Brown School. We'd go up and I'd take out Brown School. And I took a navigation course before I got in the flying. I took it in -- I don't know where -- anyway, in Chicago. And I had no idea what he was talking about, which, of course, I didn't

00:12:06.340 - 00:12:16.740

know the vocabulary, so there's no way I could know what he was talking about. But anyway, I took it. Right. When you graduated from high school, then you went on to junior college?

00:12:16.900 - 00:12:30.900

I waited about six months. I didn't know the junior college was even there. I went to business college, which really paid off later on in my life. Whenever I couldn't find a job, I could always get a job in an office, secretary or typing

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or whatever, but I hated it. Then my friend called one time and said, "Betty, why don't you come down here to this junior college?" I said, "Okay."

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She said, "It's free." I said, "Good." My dad had money and they had money, but they didn't think that women needed an education, you know, just doing whatever you have to do. So I went starting in school and I went on 25 cents a day. Anyway, so I went. I enjoyed it.

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But in junior college, was the CPT program? They had the CPT program, yes. I would be in a year. How many girls were in that program? was it. They advertised for it and I think maybe about twenty men and eight women went

00:13:12.760 - 00:13:25.440

to interview and I was, I said, I think I out said everybody else as to what happened, I don't know. But anyway, I had all the qualifications that they needed, the right age and year and everything. What year was this, Betty?

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Must have been 1942. Okay. When you finished your CPT program-- I had to sell my clarinet to pay for insurance for that, incidentally. Remember, I had my clarinet from junior--from high school. I sold it, went down to the court and said,

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"What are you giving me for it?" He said, "Fifteen dollars." And I said, "Good." I took it and gave--paid for my insurance. Now what? For your insurance for a cost. For a CPTP. We had to have insurance to fly.

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Okay. And then you began flying out at the airport after you finished-- I did not finish school. I got this job at the airport where I was supposed to work in the office and get two hours flying time, which I did not ever get the flying time. I kept working in the office. I worked there for a year or so. Then I thought I needed

00:14:14.580 - 00:14:28.400

to finish junior college. I went back and finished and got my degree in that. I never did go to the graduation or anything. I just got it. Then I got this tailor craft and kept flying until I heard about working at airports. Tell me about getting that tailor craft.

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Well, let's see. This Bob Slant, he wasn't my instructor. He was the one I worked for where I was supposed to get flying time, and I never did.

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But anyway, he called me. He bought over another airport at Chicago, Hammond Airport. And he called me on the phone one time. He said, Betty, how would you like to buy

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an airplane real cheap? I said, I'd love it. He said, I have three of them up here on the ceiling of the hangar.

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I'm going to recover them and relicen them. and you can have whichever one you want." I said, "Okay." So I picked out the Taylor Craft and he recovered it.

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He said, "What color do you want it?" And I said, "Silver." And he said, "Well, silver is what we paint it before we put the paint on." I said, "I still want it silver."

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So he made it silver and he said, "It's $600." So I borrowed it from my aunt and uncle and I paid 600. They ran the sewing machine store in Chicago, Singer Sewing Machine. So I paid them the $600 and got the airplane and flew it all the time ever since then until

00:15:22.940 - 00:15:43.980

I sold it to get in the WASP. I paid my aunt and uncle back incidentally. When you were flying Betty, did you go to outlying towns? Oh yeah, I flew all over Illinois. I used to take Renita with me, she liked to fly. And that's before she got in the WASP. And Dottie Hines was in the WASP, she used to

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go with me. And another gal was in the WASP, but she got washed out and I can't remember her name. Okay. I used to fly all over.

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Okay, and while you were flying, were you also working part-time? Yes, uh-huh. Oh yeah, I had to work, yeah. Right. And then when did you hear about, where were you when you heard about Pearl Harbor? I had my little Taylorcraft and I was working at Rubinham Camp Airport,

00:16:08.980 - 00:16:26.720

selling gas, selling candy bars, you know, just office work. And Gretchen Gorman had more flying time than I did. more money. Anyway, that doesn't matter. She came and told me about the WAPS, so I called right after that and I was interviewed and we both got in the same class together,

00:16:26.740 - 00:16:39.680

43-3. Okay. Let me back up just a moment and ask you where you were when you heard about Pearl Harbor and how did that affect you? I was at junior college and I can't remember anything else. I was just completely amazed.

00:16:40.780 - 00:16:52.660

Vernita and I went—we always met after school. We'd go down and sit and have Coca-Cola. I don't know what we had to drink anyway. It was a soft drink and we talked about it and that's all I remember. I don't remember much else.

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Okay. And when you heard about the WASP, then did you send for an application or how did you – I can't remember. It seems I was interviewed and I don't remember filling out an application.

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Do you remember who interviewed you? No. Okay. But it wasn't Dede, it was somebody else.

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Okay. And then how were you notified that you had been accepted? I have no idea. I can't remember.

00:17:15.380 - 00:17:23.020

Okay. But then what did you do? I told Janie Tallman, she was my friend, she also flew Rubin cam, she was going to the University of Chicago.

00:17:23.780 - 00:17:33.240

And I said, "Well, I'm going in the Wasp." I said, "I guess I'll take the train down." She said, "Why don't I drive?" If she had a car and money and lived in Champaign, she said, "The heater doesn't work, so we

00:17:33.320 - 00:17:45.840

about froze to death going to Champaign." Her dad said, "All you had to do was turn it on." But anyway, that's another part of my story. We drove from Champaign through Texarkana down to Houston and she got a room in a motel.

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She rode with me until Jacqueline Cockman came down and said, "You can't have non-WASP in the motel," so then she had to move out. Do you remember your first impression when you got to Houston? Were there other girls already in training?

00:18:02.320 - 00:18:14.700

No, they were in training. We had to take this bus down and the airport was just the municipal airport and just had little airplanes and other airplanes came in, DC-3s. It was kind of a mess as I remember it.

00:18:15.820 - 00:18:32.820

How about where you lived? We lived in motels. How many girls were there to a room, for example? Two, four, two beds, four, two, two to a bed, four to a room. It was kind of crowded.

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What were your expectations when you finished, if you finished the course successfully? What did you expect to do? I had no idea. I don't know.

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Just fly, I guess. Yeah. Did they? I didn't know.

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They didn't have a ferry command yet. We didn't know what we were going to do. Jacqueline Cochran, Dean, said, "You are not all going to live through this, so if you want to get out, get out."

00:18:58.680 - 00:19:10.140

Now we all sat there. So we got the training. I remember going to Houston and we could either fly or drive. I drove with Lois Brooks and we went through the Alamone.

00:19:10.270 - 00:19:22.000

I wrote her, she said, "I don't think I've ever been through the Alamone with you." That's how you can't remember things. But anyway, we made it there and got through. Do you remember your first instructor as a WASP trainee?

00:19:22.480 - 00:19:32.820

No. Tell me about some of the airplanes that you had to fly in the beginning. They were all beat up. I remember that.

00:19:32.940 - 00:19:43.080

I remember when my mother and my aunt came down to visit, and they had a UC-78 there. So I guess we got some airplanes in, but we didn't fly them. I can't remember.

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I just remember flying. We'd go out every night, and the instructor said, you're too tired. Now you have to go to sleep at night.

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So I didn't go out anymore. I'd just go to bed at night. I got along real well all the time, all the way through. Do you remember any particular instructor that--

00:20:00.480 - 00:20:12.820

in Houston? I do not remember any at Sweetwater either. Okay. During the time you were in Houston, they decided to move the training base to Sweetwater.

00:20:13.440 - 00:20:20.600

What happened with your class then? We just all went, either drove or flew. Okay. Do you remember how you got to Sweetwater?

00:20:20.620 - 00:20:24.740

I drove with Lois Brooks. Yeah, I told you that. We stopped at the Alamo. Okay.

00:20:24.960 - 00:20:35.160

Yeah, I remember Houston, the fog used to come in with her. You had to hurry up and come back and land, and then some people would land out in the fields in the fog and one time I couldn't get back so I landed at the airport where Jane Tomlin was working.

00:20:35.240 - 00:20:53.440

I thought, "Good opportunity." So I called in and said, "Well, I'm over here," whatever the field was. So anyway, they didn't get my message or they didn't pass it forward. So when the fog lifted, I got in my little old airplane and flew back to the base, to

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the headquarters in Houston. They said, "Well, we thought you were done. We're about to send out search and rescue." I said, "Well, I called," but they never got the message.

00:21:01.760 - 00:21:19.860

So anyway, it was so common that they did not pay much attention to it. Do you recall any of the Army Air Force personnel at Houston and how they accepted or not accepted you? Well, Elmer Riley was in charge of aviation, I think, and his wife was an air traffic controller.

00:21:20.460 - 00:21:43.820

But Elmer Riley was in Chicago at Harlem Airport when I was working up there for Bob Slamp. So I knew him and he knew me, but other than that we didn't know anything else. So at one time in their head, an airplane was down in Sweetwater and he came up and asked me if I could go pick it up because they were short of pilots, short of instructors.

00:21:43.840 - 00:21:51.960

I said, "Yeah, I'll go get it," but I never heard anymore so I don't know whether I couldn't do it or what. But anyway, that's all. I don't remember anything else.

00:21:52.100 - 00:22:03.000

Do you know how far into the program were you before you had to change bases and go to Sweetwater? At what stage? About three months, basic.

00:22:03.300 - 00:22:11.080

In the basic? Well, no, basic, I don't know. We just flew the little ones and we started flying. The PTs only got over in Sweetwater.

00:22:11.400 - 00:22:18.560

Okay. Do you remember your first impressions of Avenger Field? No. Okay.

00:22:18.560 - 00:22:33.200

When you got to Sweetwater, were there still male cadets on the field? No, not that I remember, not that I know of. Tell me about a day at Sweetwater during training. What would that consist of?

00:22:33.260 - 00:22:43.960

We'd go down and sit on a bench, and then we'd have lunch. And they always had chocolate ice cream and vanilla cake, or vanilla cake and chocolate ice cream. I remember dessert.

00:22:44.040 - 00:22:53.540

I don't remember anything else. I don't remember instructors. I remember the barracks were kind of crowded. I don't remember being hot or cold.

00:22:54.020 - 00:23:04.080

I never did. I don't know. I remember flying at night and I got scared and I started singing an old song, "It's a Long Way to Tipperary," my dad used to sing.

00:23:04.480 - 00:23:19.720

I remember going around singing that song, but I made it down again, so I can't remember anything else. Did anything unusual happen to you while you were at Sweetwater during a flight or on a cross country or anything?

00:23:20.480 - 00:23:34.180

Well, let's see, I was on a cross country someplace and I had oil all over the windshield, but I flew it back and got it down with the oil. I can't remember much. Okay. While you were there, did any of your friends wash out?

00:23:34.960 - 00:23:43.260

(dog barking) - Yeah, they washed out in a... - You wanna hear them? - Go ahead.

00:23:44.200 - 00:23:53.900

- All right, hey. - They washed out in Houston. I don't know. - Yeah, how did that make you feel

00:23:54.020 - 00:24:01.160

when somebody washed out? - I don't think I even knew what that was. I just wake up and they're gone. I never worried about it.

00:24:01.160 - 00:24:10.380

I didn't think I was gonna wash out. your friend that had gone with you, did she make it? - Yeah, she made it and she was in 44W7. Yeah, Janie.

00:24:12.560 - 00:24:22.620

- While you were flying at Sweetwater, what did you wear to fly in? What were your uniforms? - Well, we didn't have, we just wore anything.

00:24:22.840 - 00:24:31.240

We had these great big zoot suits, but they were hot. We just wore whatever we had. I have pictures of me just always standing around and whatever we happened to have to put on.

00:24:32.560 - 00:24:46.860

Do you remember your graduation and what was that like? I can't remember graduation. I remember coming home on the train. I sat on the train and it was so hot and I had to ride three or four days to get to Chicago

00:24:46.960 - 00:24:53.440

and the wind was blowing in and the fellow next to me had a sandwich and he gave me half a sandwich. That's all I remember. Right.

00:24:53.720 - 00:25:01.680

How did your mom and dad feel about you going off? Well they didn't want me to go. Mother always wanted me to be a secretary. My dad didn't say much of anything.

00:25:07.700 - 00:25:17.340

And how did your brother feel? Oh, he used to look -- I used to, when I was flying pursuit, I'd fly down the road sometimes where he went to school. One day I got real low.

00:25:17.740 - 00:25:26.960

I thought, "Well, I'm going to waggle my wings over to school," but it wasn't that school day, so I missed him. Anyway, I used to fly over the house every chance I got, but of course we had to fly at altitude in pursuit.

00:25:27.760 - 00:25:36.960

So anyway, he just thought it was the greatest thing in the whole world and not send a postcard every day. I said, "I don't know why Mother and Dad never kept my postcards." He said, "Well, I always got them.

00:25:37.020 - 00:25:52.820

I showed all my friends." He was real proud of me. Do you remember the first time you came home after you graduated? Do you remember how you felt?

00:25:53.500 - 00:26:03.700

Was your mom and dad really proud of you? I can't remember. I can't even remember. I know we went up to Romulus on Snafu, which was a, I guess it was a DC-3.

00:26:05.180 - 00:26:12.740

I can't remember much. I never paid, I don't know. Okay. When you got to Romulus, to whom did you report?

00:26:13.940 - 00:26:22.340

I don't remember reporting. Do you remember where you lived? Yeah, we had big two-story barracks. I remember in the barracks, Mary Baratush and I went to town and bought a bedspread.

00:26:22.360 - 00:26:36.760

I remember that. It was just horrible, but at the time I thought it was great. Tell me about your first mission when you got to Romulus, or one of the first missions. What did you start doing?

00:26:37.000 - 00:26:56.540

Well, let's see. We would go to the factory in Alliance, Ohio, and I think they made L-2s or L-5s. I can't remember. Probably an L-2. We'd sit around the hotel and play blackjack. As soon as the weather cleared up, we'd all start out.

00:26:57.480 - 00:27:07.560

I remember there was one route we'd have to take going west all the time, and the barn was on the left. If the barn was any place except on the left, you were off course. We'd always find the barn.

00:27:08.060 - 00:27:20.120

We always just had to fly by sight for about maybe a year. Nothing, just go. No radio, no nothing. Run into weather, land it, get up, fly again.

00:27:21.900 - 00:27:53.740

When you would go on these trips, what would you take with you as far as... A lot of times we were told that people put acid in them so when they'd bail out the parachutes wouldn't open, but I don't know how true that is either. Right. Let me ask you this, Betty. When you got to Romulus, there were already WAFs at that base. Tell me how you were received by the WAFs. How did they welcome you?

00:27:53.760 - 00:28:20.600

They were going on trips. "Hi, oh, here's somebody else." We didn't pay much. I don't know. It was no great "Hi, how are you?" deal. Just move in, there's your bed. Here's the mess hall. Why you were at Romulus delivering airplanes, tell me when the first time that you were sent to another base for additional training of other...

00:28:20.980 - 00:28:38.560

Oh, we went to St. Joe, Missouri for instrument training in C-46s. That was quite an experience. And then after that we went down to pursuit school in Brownsville and they didn't have any way to keep the food cool so we had to eat whatever they could bring in without having

00:28:38.560 - 00:28:45.640

to cool it. It was so hot in Brownsville. How many of you went to Brownsville for that? Probably six at a time.

00:28:46.640 - 00:28:57.060

How were you chosen to do that? Well we had to sign a paper saying that we would fly pursuit. And then they sent us down there. I think I was in the second class that went down to pursuit.

00:28:58.100 - 00:29:13.340

And they put us in a barracks in a room and we were surrounded by men of course. I don't know, we just got out and flew. Juanita said, "I always fly straight and level." I said, "Well, I always do everything I can so you'll know how it feels if you engage

00:29:13.380 - 00:29:32.020

a needle like an emergency." So anyway, and then Charlie Bing was my instructor. Who's that, Dick? Charlie Binks was my instructor and he said, "Well, today I brought the instructors out

00:29:32.020 - 00:29:40.880

and I want you to see how she's flying this airplane." Of course, I didn't know and I took it up and landed, brought it down three times, tackled it in. I guess people had a lot of trouble with them, but I didn't.

00:29:40.920 - 00:29:53.500

I don't know. I just did what it took to do it. A lot of times I'd be cross-controlled or whatever, but I just did it. Tell me the different airplanes that you checked out in when you were at Brownsville.

00:29:54.760 - 00:30:12.280

They didn't have a P-51, we didn't have a P-63, we didn't have a P-47. We had a P-39. We flew the P-39 and probably a P-40. I have it in my papers. I can't remember what else we flew. And how long did that course last?

00:30:12.280 - 00:30:25.360

It probably lasted maybe 20 hours. and while they taught us what to do in case of emergency, how to bail out and don't jump off the wing of the airplane. - Okay, and then when you finished that course,

00:30:25.540 - 00:30:33.020

then you went back to Romulus? - To Romulus, yeah. - And how did your missions change? - Well, we'd still go up to the base

00:30:33.100 - 00:30:43.540

where they built the airplane, like the factory. We'd go to Romulus, up to Niagara, and usually pick a P-39, and then later on the P-63. The P-39 had the belly tank,

00:30:43.540 - 00:30:48.680

It was a lot unstable. The P-63 was very stable. It was all electrical. It had tricycle gear.

00:30:49.090 - 00:31:01.880

It was a beautiful, beautiful airplane. And then we'd take those to Great Falls. And do you know what they would do with them at Great Falls? Yeah, all the Russians would pick the Americans would take them up to Russia and then the

00:31:01.940 - 00:31:12.980

Russians would pick them up and fly them over to Russia. I have a whole thing there on the P-63. Anyway, it was quite an airplane. I just loved it and I flew as many as I could, as far as I could, as fast as I could.

00:31:13.310 - 00:31:29.260

And I was a pilot. What was the longest trip you made before you got back to your base? Sometimes would they send you on in someplace else? We'd take a P-63 to Great Falls, and then maybe they'd take us down to Long Beach to pick up a P-51.

00:31:29.780 - 00:31:46.140

Then we'd deliver that, then they'd take us back to Romulus or back to pick up another P-51. You never knew where you were going to go until you delivered it. It was ours until it was delivered. Then we signed it over, and we were through. then we're ready for another one. Longest trip I ever made was a P-51 from Long Beach. I was

00:31:46.300 - 00:32:10.320

trying to make it to the other to the East Coast one day but I couldn't do it. I landed in St. Louis I think because of weather. On any of these trips was there ever a time that you thought you were really in trouble? Well I had a Allegheny County Airport has a drop-off that probably goes down I don't know, maybe a thousand feet with big smelters.

00:32:10.480 - 00:32:17.360

I don't know what's down off the end of the runway, but something bad. Dick, what's off, well that's all right. I forgot, I'm being interviewed. >> What do you want?

00:32:17.480 - 00:32:24.300

>> What's off the end of the runway to Allegheny County Airport? >> There's a big burning sleep dump there. >> Okay. >> There's a coal mine down there.

00:32:24.410 - 00:32:42.920

>> Anyway, so the engine quit on takeoff and I had to decide real fast, do I want to put it down, do I take it around and land again, do I hope it's going to run and keep on going? I said, "I'm on the ground, I better stay here." So I accidentally bounced it, and I found out that by bouncing it, I lost so much speed

00:32:42.980 - 00:32:51.880

that I just bounced it down the runway. Ran off the end of the runway, made a U-turn, hanging over like that, where you could almost see over the side. M.A. Hamilton was up there.

00:32:51.980 - 00:33:07.640

She said, "Betty, are you all right?" I said, "Yes," and that was the end of it. But anyway, they took it back in and found out that when they checked it, oh, some mechanic could check the coolant but didn't tell me about it. The coolant would heat really much.

00:33:07.640 - 00:33:31.180

As soon as you taxied out, you had to take off because the coolant would get so hot. So anyway, the coolant got hot, so I took it on that evening. I went in where we landed up in New York and M. A. Hamilton said, "Well, Betty, how did you get here?" And I said, "I flew." I just took the same airplane. No, she couldn't believe it. Anyway, I'll never

00:33:31.120 - 00:33:44.080

forget to look on her face. She married General Tunner. Do you know Emma Hamilton at all? Anyway. Levy: Was there ever a time when you were flying and had a problem with weather closing in?

00:33:46.680 - 00:34:05.600

Harris: Probably a hundred times. I cannot remember any specific time. Levy: While you were at Romulus, were any of the girls killed while you were there? for Luke, Lovejoy, and Lee, the three of y'alls. We'd just go in and they'd have a sad look and I'd say, "Well, who is it now, Luke?"

00:34:05.600 - 00:34:16.260

And they would say, "Tsk, tsk, tsk." We saw each other so seldom. - Who's Lovejoy? - Yeah, could you tell me about Lovejoy's accident?

00:34:16.700 - 00:34:24.820

- Lovejoy, Luke Lovejoy. Lovejoy... - Did you know her at all? - Oh, yeah. Luke, Lovejoy, and Lee.

00:34:26.360 - 00:34:48.140

Lovejoy was killed in Brownsville, I think. It was in training. Luke was killed firing a P-63 in Oregon. My brother, he's still investigating that accident. Lee was killed on her very last landing in a P-63 going into Great Falls.

00:34:48.300 - 00:35:06.000

Someone else was in the pattern with her, and someone said, "Pull up," and the wrong one pulled up, and she was burned. she died, she said, "I don't want to die. I don't want to die." She was Chinese and she was married to a Chinese and she was going back over to China to fly for Madame Chiang Kai-shek. And some of us were going to go with her, we thought, of course, but anyway,

00:35:07.140 - 00:35:30.120

she didn't make it. One time I had -- do you want to hear -- I was going to tell you about my other real close call. I was on my very last P-63. I three flight from Niagara going to Romulus. And I didn't...

00:35:30.160 - 00:35:39.000

I'm sorry, can we wait until that clock goes off? Yeah. I have so many noises I don't hear half of them. Okay, it's done. Did it chime already?

00:35:39.280 - 00:35:51.960

Yeah. Okay, something else in there is going to play a little song, but that's all right. It was my last trip from Niagara to Romulus

00:35:52.320 - 00:36:02.780

And I had this P-63 and I thought, well, this is my very last trip and I didn't tune in and find out where. I just took off. I knew I was headed in the right direction, but I didn't know where.

00:36:02.840 - 00:36:13.260

I thought, well, I can find myself. The way I used to do, they'd get lost and tune in the low frequency range and then find myself. So, anyway, here I am and I got over this, it was turned out it was Lake St. Clair, this

00:36:13.340 - 00:36:24.300

great big body of water. Well, I could hardly see the shore. And pretty soon, sput, sput, sput, sput, it kept quitting. I didn't even think about bailing out, but anyway I kept trying to get it started.

00:36:25.040 - 00:36:39.600

I pulled every single thing in case of emergency, what to do. And anyway kept quitting, quitting. Finally I got maybe thirty feet above the water and I thought, I saw a little house way over in the distance and I thought, well maybe I can land it and swim over there.

00:36:39.640 - 00:36:57.140

Of course I couldn't swim and I couldn't swim in that equipment and I would never live through a landing on the water anyway. So I happened to look around here and it said carburetor heat, so I just pulled the carburetor heat. And it started again. A little bit more sput. Good, good, good. So finally I thought,

00:36:57.220 - 00:37:13.520

well I'm going to land on the first road. Well the first road came and went and I thought, well I'm going to land at, there was some Canadian base just north of, I'm going to land there. And I kept going. I thought, well I'm going to land at Romulus. I'm going to get home and at least read my mail. And every time I'd throttle back it would quit. And

00:37:13.520 - 00:37:34.520

I thought, well I can't throttle back. So I was going pretty fast and I got over the the airport at Romulus and I called emergency landing. So they cleared the whole airport. I came back and it ran just as smooth. I made a perfect landing. The bus driver going back to there, he said, "That dumb wasp, she called emergency and there wasn't any emergency at

00:37:34.660 - 00:37:48.900

all." I said, "You don't know, do you?" Anyway, they gave the air—they didn't want me to take it on. I guess I was so close to being—we were probably going to be disbanded in two days or something, so they gave it to this fellow. So he turned around and came back.

00:37:49.700 - 00:38:02.180

Well later on they took it apart and they found out the coolant shutters had been put on backwards so it was icing up. Inline engines are not supposed to ice up, but this one did. So anyway, it is just a good thing I still have that little button or I would not be

00:38:02.280 - 00:38:16.520

here that is all. So that was my most exciting thing, but I was really kind of scared. In the meantime, I'd put my wallet in my zoot suit pocket, and I couldn't find my wallet for a couple of days.

00:38:16.640 - 00:38:30.640

So pretty soon I was looking at my zoot suit, here it was in my zoot suit pocket. I'd take all this emergency thing, tune in the radio, find out where I am. I didn't know Lake St. Clair or Lake Erie. Over Lake Erie, make the right turn, everything real fast.

00:38:30.850 - 00:38:43.280

Pardon me for moving. So that's all I know. Let me ask you, how did it make you feel when those three girls were killed? Oh, I just felt terrible.

00:38:43.440 - 00:38:54.740

I just loved them. They were just, I didn't see them very often. Paula Lute was one of my most, she was real sweet and quiet-spoken. She was one of my favorite people of all of them.

00:38:55.800 - 00:39:08.560

I just felt terrible, that's all. Do you know what happened to their bodies after they were killed? No. Lovejoy there wasn't enough to bring. We don't know. Well, they're still trying to know. Paula Loop

00:39:08.640 - 00:39:24.760

They're still trying to find out what happened to her Lee was right there at the base. I Imagine that we had to collect the money to send them home. I know we did in training, but I don't know what happened to them At one time

00:39:25.960 - 00:39:41.780

When you were fine After you had graduated there came a time when you got a different uniform. Tell me about that Yes, when we got the blues in. I can't remember getting the uniform.

00:39:42.380 - 00:39:55.600

We still wore khakis half the time. We were in at the base hardly long enough to figure out what we were going to wear. I have pictures of the two of us in there, two of us in blues and two of us in khakis, and the two guys standing there in khakis.

00:39:55.920 - 00:40:05.900

It didn't matter what we wore. We just wore what was available. We really didn't make much of it. Okay. While you were at Romulus, what did your social life consist of?

00:40:06.360 - 00:40:17.980

Going to the officers club for dinner. You could have anything you wanted. They had slot machines and I played two slot machines. You couldn't lose. So I didn't play slot machines. What we didn't have, we'd just get ready to go out again.

00:40:18.040 - 00:40:27.140

They had so many airplanes, so few pilots. We were just busy as we could be all the time. Just every time they came in, they'd have another airplane for you. Go pick it up, take it here.

00:40:27.700 - 00:40:44.100

Go there, take it there. So at one time you were sent to a school in Florida. Tell me about that Well, yes, I can't remember how we got there how we got home or what we did But I went to officers training school in Florida. We learned how to be an officer and I can't remember much about that

00:40:44.100 - 00:41:04.980

I'm sorry. I can't remember more about these things. You asked me they were important to me Not just wasp I think yeah Do you remember when you first heard about the WASP being deactivated and how you felt? Well, I probably was on a trip when they told us.

00:41:05.420 - 00:41:22.320

I thought it was terrible. It was my whole life. I didn't know where I was going to go, what I could do. I thought I was probably the best pilot in the whole world and here I am without a job. I felt like that for years, believe me, when they told me I could clean airplanes in Florida.

00:41:22.320 - 00:41:33.300

I couldn't get a flying job. It was pretty hard. But anyway, I went home. My aunt, I remember all the stupid stuff instead of the important stuff.

00:41:33.660 - 00:41:48.500

She had a big party to welcome me home. Margaret McCormick was from Jackson, but she died. She used to drink a lot, carry her whiskey with her in the airplane, but we didn't care. Anyway, she came over to my house and we went out and drank all night instead of going to

00:41:48.520 - 00:41:55.320

my party at my aunt's house. She even had a singer for me sing songs in here. I wasn't even there. I don't even think I called her.

00:41:55.700 - 00:41:59.540

I did such a thing. Take it and take it. Okay, we're rolling. Okay, where were we?

00:41:59.580 - 00:42:05.740

We're rolling. I don't know what happened. Well. Okay, why don't you hold it for me?

00:42:05.740 - 00:42:09.380

Okay. Back up. Back up there. Okay.

00:42:09.600 - 00:42:14.740

That was it. Let's talk about the party. Well, I didn't go. I don't know what happened.

00:42:14.840 - 00:42:33.320

I'm sure they all had a good time, though. Anyway, Marge McCormick went home the next day and she died about two years later. Then once you went back home after the WASP was disbanded, what did you do then? Well I talked on the phone to some of my friends. One was Vernita Rodriguez and the other one

00:42:33.380 - 00:42:53.380

was Dottie Hines who was in the WASP too. I don't know what class she was in though. And we got on an Army airplane and we all went to California. My friend Janie Tomlin was out in California. We couldn't find a place to live. So we stayed in a hotel one One night you couldn't stay in a hotel more than one night because of course all the military

00:42:53.460 - 00:43:08.360

was so crowded. So finally my father's friend, George Peck, who was kind of goofy from Chicago, was out there and he said that his friend had a little house that we could rent up in Sierra Madre. So we went up and rented it.

00:43:08.420 - 00:43:20.860

It was two bedrooms and the back wall was washed in with the mud. It wasn't very livable, but we made it livable. A couple other wives moved in with us and we were there, but I had to work of course. Janie had a private income.

00:43:21.100 - 00:43:29.580

Her parents would send her money every time they turned around so she didn't need to worry about money. I don't know about the others. I guess they had enough money, but anyway I didn't.

00:43:29.720 - 00:43:37.320

So I went to work for a florist in town. Well that didn't work at all. She said I, she fired me. What did I do?

00:43:38.480 - 00:43:51.960

I planted each little pot carefully instead of in real fast all in a row, you know. But anyway, I got fired from that so I decided, "Well, I better go home." Well, I had the money to get there so I went back to Chicago. There was nothing in Chicago.

00:43:54.940 - 00:44:12.340

So Stamps, her name was Stamps, so she was a ex-wife too, she was going to California. So she, some gal, they went together down to California, I mean to Arizona, Florida. So we drove down to Florida. I didn't have much luck there.

00:44:12.360 - 00:44:18.480

I can't remember. Who is Lee? Katie Stamps. I think her name was, and I don't know what her friend's name was.

00:44:19.120 - 00:44:24.460

Do you know Katie Stamps? She was a WASP. But the three of you then went to Florida? Yeah.

00:44:27.880 - 00:44:41.600

I think that's the time. I've been to Florida two or three times. Well anyway, one time down there, the time that Matt and all Katie—no, that was the last time I went to Florida with Katie Stamps.

00:44:41.640 - 00:44:53.720

The other time, Janie was down there and Jane Tallman and Barbara Donahue, she was the CO of the watch. She had had a bad accident and she was crippled up. But anyway, she came down and flew with us.

00:44:54.420 - 00:45:13.520

We went to find jobs. This airline said, "Well, you can't do anything except clean airplanes." Well, that was an insult to me. So we anyway, Katie—Willis anyway, Stinky Willis, I think that she was in the West,

00:45:13.620 - 00:45:29.080

but she may have washed out, I don't know. Anyway, she was hanging around. But she had a convertible, so we traded her convertible in on this old beat up UC-78, which is—no, on this big old Nordheim Norseman, which is a great big airplane.

00:45:29.240 - 00:45:43.700

It hauls about six passengers, 650 horsepower, ground loop and devil. Anyway, so we got that airplane. So we started hauling Cubans from Key West to Havana. So we moved on to Key West.

00:45:45.220 - 00:45:53.860

So we flew to Havana. Rancho Viejo. Anyway they couldn't believe that women were flying the airplanes. Women Pulitos, women Pulitos.

00:45:54.900 - 00:46:19.460

So we made two trips and then they raised the landing fee because they didn't like women so we couldn't go anymore. So then we started hauling flowers from Homestead up to St. Louis and freight up to Chicago, flowers up to New York. And anyway, we couldn't get trips back, so we lost the airplane. We were so dumb. Anyway, Stinky was supposed to get us, well,

00:46:19.540 - 00:46:36.520

she got us trips hauling dope. Well, we didn't want to haul dope, of course, So we didn't do anything, so we lost the airplane. This one Barbara Donahue came and flew with us for a while and we had a night trip and she said, "I swore I'd never fly nights again," and she ground looped the airplane and she went home.

00:46:37.060 - 00:46:49.340

Well, no, she was really good though. She didn't go home after she'd drowned. She just happened, everybody ground looped it, so that didn't matter. But anyway, I couldn't fly instruments. I didn't have an instrument rating. She had an instrument rating.

00:46:50.140 - 00:47:09.760

She didn't think much of flying this old airplane on instruments. Well, it turned out it was smart because we couldn't pay for the airplane and we lost it in stinky Willis. We took it up to--oh yeah, we all flew up to Washington, outside of Washington, Virginia, to sell the airplane. And we found out that it had never been re-licensed.

00:47:10.340 - 00:47:22.640

So here we are flying this unlicensed airplane. I made a luggage compartment in the back out of thumbtacks. Here they looked at this airplane, my God. So anyway, I don't know whether she ever sold it or not.

00:47:22.700 - 00:47:36.440

Her mother gave us money and I went back to Chicago. Then I went back to Florida again with Katie Stamps and that didn't work out. I couldn't find a job anyplace. And I read this ad in the paper.

00:47:36.560 - 00:47:57.340

It said, "Wanted. There must be one someplace. Women to do the office work and run the office and fly and do everything." Bloomington, Indiana. So I immediately went up to Bloomington, Indiana, and I was there for maybe six months or a year. And I'd get off first. I didn't have a car. This mechanic would always pick me up,

00:47:57.340 - 00:48:14.120

and I'd go out and start the fire, and we had a little wood-burning stove in the office, and start the paperwork and find out he'd want me to fly an airplane someplace and trade it for another one. If I didn't think it wasn't any good, I wouldn't trade it. And anyway, I think I got my instrument rating there then, my instructor's rating.

00:48:16.260 - 00:48:26.220

One time he had me fly an AT-6 up to Romulus. I went in, no radio, nothing. Boy, they got on my back. He said, "Don't you have to have a radio to get in this airport?"

00:48:26.220 - 00:48:34.560

No, Detroit City Airport. And I said, "No, I've been here a lot of times before without a radio." And he said, "Well, times change, you know." So he didn't do anything to me.

00:48:35.200 - 00:48:53.180

Anyway, so I came home again. I got my instructor's rating and I got kind of, oh, Ed Holdley was too friendly. Anyway, he lived in the house and he had rented this little house from him in the back of his house and he was too friendly.

00:48:53.340 - 00:49:01.400

I had to leave. So anyway, I went up to a Chicago Smithsea playing base. What does too friendly mean? Got close.

00:49:02.560 - 00:49:09.080

Too friendly. I didn't like it. I left. So anyway, she knows what I mean.

00:49:09.460 - 00:49:33.580

You know what you mean. what I mean even. Anyway, so we flew on seaplane that flew out of the slough and we flew cubs and I finally bought a cub and it was on skis and then in the winter we'd take it over to Reuben and put it on wheels and then as soon as it snowed we'd put him on skis so the students

00:49:33.600 - 00:49:53.040

would have a variety of landing and takeoffs and whatever kind of weather. I remember one student he kept getting. He was a good pilot but he got lost every time he went up so I'd make him stay around the airport. Anyway, it was quite a deal up there. I was there probably for I don't know how long. And then this beautiful guy comes in, he sat around,

00:49:53.200 - 00:50:12.000

he had his camera on his shoulder and his leather jacket. Anyway, I thought he was the grandest thing that ever walked down Main Street and we ended up getting married and it turned out he was already married and his mother-in-law had bought him the airplane make money with and he was just perfect con artist.

00:50:12.720 - 00:50:23.960

In the meantime of course I got pregnant. In the meantime we went to Albuquerque and he wanted me to get a job. He said, "Well you know the KD Stamps works, you can get a job at that airport." I said, "I'm not working."

00:50:23.960 - 00:50:35.520

And I decided then that he just wanted me to work. His ex-wife had been a school teacher working all the time of course. So we came back home and on the way back is when I got pregnant. I should have known better but anyway I'm glad I did.

00:50:37.000 - 00:50:41.760

So I couldn't fly. I thought, "Well, I need to stay home and take care of my baby. I can't fly." No, I didn't.

00:50:41.960 - 00:50:51.000

Well, then, you know, women didn't work any. I couldn't fly and take care of a little baby. I couldn't take care of a baby anyway, hardly. But anyway, it worked out.

00:50:51.120 - 00:51:05.820

So he's grown now and he works for Channel 24 up in Memphis. My granddaughter is my very best friend. I told her about how she's in theater in Memphis and I could care less about theater, but, you know, everybody has their own thing.

00:51:06.920 - 00:51:17.200

all I know. How's that? Is my interview over yet? No, you're just wound up. I think she's just trying to get it over with up here. I'm getting tired, yeah.

00:51:17.340 - 00:51:29.180

Okay, well. Well, that's all right. What else do you want to hear? I talk faster. I talk faster than you. I'll try to slow it down a little bit. It's hard. And, well, we haven't heard about Paul.

00:51:30.020 - 00:51:32.080

Dick? Dick. Dick. Dick.

00:51:32.800 - 00:51:46.120

Could you tell us about Dick? I forgot about control tower. My God, I got into control towers. They had an ad in the Chicago paper, "Control Towers Needed. Migsfield," which is the Chicago lakefront airport, "needed."

00:51:46.200 - 00:52:04.560

Of course, I applied. Mark was probably a year old or so, and I had been living with my folks with no income at all, of course. But anyway, so I answered the ad, and sure enough, they needed controllers, but you had to have a license. So I went back three or four times. You'd think I'd pass the controller's license, but they're really tough.

00:52:05.300 - 00:52:19.640

So I went back and I finally passed it. So he hired me as a controller at Makesfield, and I was there as chief for six years, I think. Well, that was a fascinating job, remembering.

00:52:19.960 - 00:52:39.940

Well, it wasn't nearly as bad as when I went to Indianapolis. I could either go to – the FAA finally took over. I could either go to Chicago, Peoria, or Indianapolis. I thought about Peoria, but I thought, "Well, that's too little Chicago. They cuss too much." So I went to Indianapolis. I was supposed

00:52:40.020 - 00:53:00.240

to know all about radar and how to work radar. I'd never even seen a radar. So all I did the whole time I was there -- Mark was eight years old then -- was study. I'd work all day, come home, study. I didn't know what it was to watch TV. You had to work holidays. We would work a short turnaround shift, which I'll tell you, but you probably can't follow

00:53:00.340 - 00:53:06.700

it. It was terrible. You'd go to work at four in the afternoon and work until midnight. Then you'd go at three and work until eleven.

00:53:07.520 - 00:53:22.900

You'd go back at eight until work, until four, and seven until three, and then the last shift was midnight till late. So you just have eight hours in between all that time. Of course, these young men have young wives cooking and cleaning and running around doing

00:53:23.000 - 00:53:31.400

all the shopping. by myself with a little boy trying to do everything. My dad and mother, he finally retired, so they built a house just down from me in Indianapolis.

00:53:32.120 - 00:53:43.080

So then they helped a lot with Mark. My neighbor helped a lot with Mark. I had a lot of help, otherwise I could never have done it. But anyway, that was terrible.

00:53:43.920 - 00:53:58.140

Instead of just flying one airplane, you're flying 20 airplanes. I am. I'm flying every single one of them. Come in all airline, mostly airlines. Remember their number, remember the trip number, remember their altitude, what altitude you gave him.

00:53:58.180 - 00:54:14.400

You're supposed to write it all down, but I couldn't write it all down. There was too much. So anyway, I was there for ten years. Oh, and in the meantime, Dick was flying up there for Bo Seal Fest. They used to make spark plugs and things, and he'd fly all over.

00:54:15.040 - 00:54:29.300

And he was down at Dale Smith's seaplane base was in Florida. He was working there on me and he talked to Dale and they happened to bring me up to Dick. And he said, "Well, give Betty Archibald a call when you get back and tell her." I said, "Hi."

00:54:29.300 - 00:54:44.220

So Dick called me on the telephone, "Do you know Dale Smith?" "Oh, yes." So he called me and we went out. It turned out that he was just divorced and he had five little kids, like five, six, seven,

00:54:44.340 - 00:54:58.160

and eight. but they were really old. 15 I think was the oldest. So we went out a couple times. We went to the air races. We went here and we went there and we decided we'd get married. Well, I was 48 then and he was 40.

00:54:58.980 - 00:55:17.260

So he was a young man, but he was really old and experienced, believe me, because he had had so much trouble in his whole life. So we got married and he was on a trip and I guess he drank too much and somebody tried to tell him he was fired. and he wanted to get fired anyway, so he came home from Palm Springs and left them with

00:55:17.300 - 00:55:39.160

the airplane. In Palm Springs, they had to get another pilot. There was a Lockheed. Nobody knows how to fly a Lockheed to fly them home. So anyway, that ended his aviation career more or less. So we decided, well, I didn't like Indianapolis anyway, I'd had it, so we'd go to Arizona. So we went to Arizona, and then I started at Hobbs, New Mexico, which

00:55:39.100 - 00:55:56.780

is a combined station tower with teletypes. I never could learn how to work a teletype. I could work radar, but I couldn't work a teletype. So El Paso chief was there and he said, "Why don't you come down to El Paso?" And I said, "Okay." I was going to transfer to El Paso where they had radar instead of these stupid teletypes.

00:55:58.540 - 00:56:17.440

But in the meantime, I had a cardiac arrest. My arms started hurting, my chest hurt, and I said, "Dick, I hurt. Take me home." He was in the store. I went in the store and got him. I said, "Dick, I have to go home." Well, he took me to the hospital instead. And they had me on the gurney going to take a blood test when my heart stopped. Well,

00:56:17.500 - 00:56:31.740

they happened to have a -- that night they happened to have a staff meeting at the hospital, the doctors. They called Code Blue. The doctors ran down and got me started again. So I've been on workman's comp ever since, which is a good thing. I work for the government. them.

00:56:33.090 - 00:56:40.100

And what year was that? Workman's Compensation, 1971. '71 is thirty years. I can't believe it's been so long.

00:56:43.920 - 00:56:55.020

And then where did you come from there? Well, I wanted, well we didn't like hobs. It's all green and I like, it's all flat, oil land. I like water.

00:56:56.360 - 00:57:15.300

My friend lived in Little Rock, Mississippi, so we flew down to, I flew on a trip one time and everything was all green and the flowers were blooming. One time Dick and I, we saw an ad for a lake in New Mexico. We drove about an hour and a half and we got to the lake and there was nothing but almost

00:57:15.300 - 00:57:34.620

a dry lake bed with just a shack on it. Here we want water, you know, water, water. So anyway, he got it. So anyway, we decided we'd go to -- we bought a little

00:57:34.820 - 00:57:47.320

house in Collinsville, Mississippi. It was near a lake. And he got a job from Meridian Air Cargo as chief mechanic. And he's also a mechanic and pilot. So he was our chief mechanic. And then they transferred up to

00:57:47.620 - 00:58:06.400

Memphis. So he went up to Memphis. Anyway, so I moved up there. They called him all night long. They'd be trips, you know, something broken down in Ohio or Idaho someplace, and he was up half the night anyway. The fellow finally went out of business. But in the meantime, Dick had broken his leg

00:58:06.440 - 00:58:26.240

and this fellow paid Dick for every single hour that he didn't work for his broken leg. He got full salary, which is one reason why he wasn't broke, but anyway. So then Dick got -- he was sitting -- we moved to Woodland Lake, which is just north of here. It's a a great big lake. We had a huge house but it was a little lake. We had so many rooms

00:58:26.240 - 00:58:42.060

I didn't know what to do with them all. But anyway, so we sold it and came down here because he got a job at the Clarksdale Airport, chief mechanic. So he still works out there sometimes. Some young kid took it over and he taught him everything he knows. But he had his cancer operation so he can't do much.

00:58:43.080 - 00:58:59.880

Tell me about an operation that you had not long ago. Well, I had a quadruple heart bite pass a year ago, which is quite common. And then Then I woke up one day and I couldn't move my arm and I called my doctor. It was weekend so four days after that she finally found out that I had a minor stroke.

00:59:00.000 - 00:59:14.820

So they had an RMI and found out that I had a series of small strokes. So then they did a heart, a carotid artery, cleaned out my carotid artery. He said, "Come back next for a year and we'll do the other one." I said, "No thanks."

00:59:15.220 - 00:59:34.080

I just got over that. It takes three months to get over that so I just got over that. Baby, could you tell me what is your opinion of Jacqueline Cochran? Jacqueline Cochran. Well, I think she did a lot of fine things for not having much education, and I don't know how she did it except by pushing power.

00:59:34.120 - 00:59:53.540

Nobody's asked me this question before, so it's coming off the top of my head. But I think she deserves it all. She did a good job, but I didn't particularly like the way she did things. I think she was too pushy, but she wouldn't have been there. She wouldn't have been pushy. So that's all right Ask me what I think of Nancy Love. You know who Nancy Love is?

00:59:54.030 - 01:00:15.320

Yes, Nancy Love is the sweetest, kindest, best person I have ever known in my whole life and a good pilot. That's all What do you think the legacy of the Wasp will be? Well, I figured it would be nothing but evidently it's going to be something. I don't know What do you think your legacy will be?

01:00:15.520 - 01:00:36.100

Nothing. I'm going to be cremated and shipped up to Morocco in a little box where I can see it outside. When I die, I always want to be put up in a tree like the Indians, you know, and I just hate to be under the ground. So we found out to be buried up there is going to cost about $8,000 each, and Dick said, "Gee, we could do a lot with that money." This one, we decided to move up there when we found out we couldn't move.

01:00:36.880 - 01:00:45.580

So we decided, well, he'd want to be cremated anyway. I said, "Well, that's all right. Then we can be in a pod above the ground so I can hear the wind and the wave." So that's what we're going to do.

01:00:47.460 - 01:01:05.780

Tell me about something that you did not very long ago with the church here. Well, let's see. I hadn't been in the church in 30, I don't know how many years, maybe 30. And my friend kept saying, "Come to church, come to church."

01:01:05.780 - 01:01:17.000

Well, we have a Moon Lake Improvement Club that meets once a month down here in the Legion Hut, and I was involved in that. So this minister, he was young, he kept coming to the church. I said, "Well, how would you like to baptize me?"

01:01:17.000 - 01:01:26.720

And he said, "Fine." So he baptized me. And then I've been going ever since in the little Methodist church up here in Little -- we have probably 15 members at the most that show up.

01:01:27.180 - 01:01:37.140

What did that mean to you? It didn't mean anything. Well, I always believed in God, and I say my prayers, and I think that God, he knows whether or not you've been baptized, but...

01:01:38.280 - 01:01:52.060

So, anyway. - Let me ask you this. If you could say anything to children, to your grandchildren, or your great-grandchildren,

01:01:52.490 - 01:02:01.600

or children that you don't even know, 25, 50 years from now, when they're watching you do this interview, or parts of it,

01:02:02.140 - 01:02:35.420

What would you like to say to them that might encourage them to succeed or to fulfill their dreams like you did yours? Well, I would tell you what my mother always said. The main thing in my life is tell the truth. I have told the truth. One time up in Migs Field, a Navy airplane came in and crashed off the end of the runway, and the other one was lost and he was fiddling around. He went up and he landed up at Glenview

01:02:36.480 - 01:02:55.660

and they had search and rescue out looking for that poor guy out in Lake Michigan all night long. And that next day he said, "Well, I closed my flight plan with some woman." Well, I was the only woman in the whole area and I said, "He didn't close it with me." When I said that, they believed me. So they kept searching and they found out there was some new gal over at Chicago

01:02:55.660 - 01:03:13.300

a flight service station he closed it with. But if I hadn't told the truth all the time, they would never believe it. They said, "Well, he didn't close it. She just lied." And then I had another time at Indianapolis where I forget what it was where I told the truth and they said, "Well, if she said it's true, it's true." So that's what I would say in

01:03:13.300 - 01:03:30.040

the one thing, "Tell the truth." Other than that, I don't know, just persevere, I guess. Never give up. Just keep plugging along. Before we close, I want you to tell me about your granddaughter. Sarah Lynn, she's about five foot and she weighs about 100 pounds.

01:03:30.080 - 01:03:41.140

She has long blonde hair, big eyes. She's just beautiful. I just love her to death. And she loves me. When she was a little girl, her mother--she had kind of a crazy mother.

01:03:41.220 - 01:03:52.700

I used to pick her up on every holiday and bring her home. We lived in a big house up at Woodland Lake. She just loves Woodland Lake. She'd pack a week or two weeks before it was time for me to show up, bring her home, take

01:03:52.700 - 01:04:04.680

her back. I did that for years and she mentioned that to me the other day that she remembered. Many ways she couldn't finish, so I sent her through college and I got her to graduate school and she said, "I wouldn't be here, Grandma, without you."

01:04:04.680 - 01:04:09.400

I said, "Where would you be?" She said, "I'd probably be dead." I said, "No, you wouldn't." So anyway.

01:04:11.180 - 01:04:33.500

Oh, she's, well, Overton High School is the performing arts high school in Memphis. And she's in charge of the high school and she teaches them how to, she has a master's and she has two bachelors and two master's degrees. And she teaches them how to make the sets, make the costumes, do the costumes, do the

01:04:33.580 - 01:04:44.240

play, arrange everything, do the lighting. She does it all herself. but she's 33. She's about added, I think. She's not a grandma yet, a mother, but she had better be. I'm going to give her one more year.

01:04:44.660 - 01:05:00.340

Q. Is she married now? A. Oh, yeah. Yeah, she's married. Charlie Wood, he plays on Beale Street. Plays the piano on Beale Street and sings every night, "Charlie Wood, King's Palace." But he's a classical musician, but he can make more money on Beale Street as well. He plays there, but

01:05:00.380 - 01:05:13.040

he hates it. I should have said that. Q. Well, we'll share that with you. A. Okay, cross that out. Is there anything that you would like to say on this tape that I haven't asked you or any

01:05:13.440 - 01:05:23.640

story you would like to tell or anything you would like to say? I can't think of anything except I talk too fast and after you're gone I'll be thinking about things all night long. That's all I know but I can't think of a thing right now.

01:05:23.660 - 01:05:31.320

It's nice meeting you. Can I ask you what your favorite airplane was? P-63. P-47, I couldn't reach it.

01:05:31.340 - 01:05:41.300

It had to go like that. A P-40 was unreliable. Everybody liked the P-51, but to me, they were just another airplane. The P-63, push a button, all electrical.

01:05:42.380 - 01:05:52.900

Gear come up, didn't have to reach for anything, grab for anything. Of course, we couldn't take clothes. I always--you talk about uniforms. We couldn't take--we didn't have any place to put clothes.

01:05:53.540 - 01:06:04.520

We just had a little place to put a bag with our maps in it, so we'd just wear what we had or warshot underwear. Barbara Donahue used to have to go down and buy her new underwear all the time. I couldn't afford that.

01:06:05.080 - 01:06:19.520

And I, you know, we just wore them out and hang them up or wore them dirty, I guess. Let me ask you one last thing. What do you think the WASP contributed as far as the war effort? I think they contributed more than anybody will ever know.

01:06:19.620 - 01:06:28.080

We always had more airplanes lined up. They needed more pilots to fly the airplanes. We hardly ever had a day off. Just fly, fly, fly.

01:06:28.200 - 01:06:43.460

And, of course, we did it so the men could go overseas. We didn't fly B, I co-piloted on one B-24 once, but we didn't fly four engine because the men could fly them overseas. So we just had to try to take their place.

01:06:45.240 - 01:06:58.480

And that wasn't the last question, but this maybe will be. As you know, the WASP history was left out of the history textbooks. Why do you think it was left out? Because there were so few and they couldn't be bothered with it.

01:06:58.580 - 01:07:21.820

Nobody knew about it, just ignorance. What is your opinion of whether or not it should be in there now or should be in classrooms? I haven't read a textbook for thirty years so I really have no idea what a textbook looks like now, but I think there should be a mention of it anyway, especially since women are doing

01:07:21.920 - 01:07:42.460

so many more things than they ever did before. They're so prominent in all forces of life that they should be in the textbooks. And what do you think the role of the WASP was as far as women who followed in aviation? Oh yeah, well we had to lead them. I'm sure of that.

01:07:43.460 - 01:08:00.180

We proved that it could be done. The ones who follow us are just doing it. We had to do it first. They had the nerve to get down and get out and go. that was pretty hard about 50 years ago. Could I tell you, you are the most colorful wasp

01:08:00.500 - 01:08:18.940

I have ever taught. You have been a joy. Thank you very much. I hope children 50 years from now are going to enjoy every word you've said. Well I'm glad to hear that. Are we through? Yes we're through. I'm gonna take your mic off. Wait, wait, wait.

01:08:21.840 - 01:08:46.180

You've been delightful. I tell you one thing. I bet you there's a whole lot of stuff you didn't tell us. Oh I know and I can't remember everything. But you remember a lot. Oh yes you do. How you doing? And you remember the colorful. Well I can't remember who sent what or what it was like. I can remember who did that. Listen, when I'm filling this out and you remember all these dates. Yeah, you remember a lot.

01:08:48.800 - 01:09:01.240

[garbled audio] Give me glare. I can actually take these into it. It's a little dark, but I think that may be the best way. When I turn on the light...

01:09:03.900 - 01:09:27.320

[garbled audio] No, that's okay. I just want it so that it... easier to take pictures. You can kind of see what you're doing. Oh Lordy, I don't know. She's done some wildlife, some ducks. She's particularly fond of ducks.

01:09:27.420 - 01:09:47.980

She's been into the loons for a long time. She's got a tape of loon calls even. That is really beautiful. I hear some of the aviations. There was a cub on skis in Chicago. Oh she talked about the Cub on skis. Yeah, she was flying that. She also flew them on floats.

01:09:48.640 - 01:10:27.720

And here she is in her graduating from pursuit school down in, there she is, in Brownsville, Texas. And we're on Gold Rd. Everybody's probably got something like that. There's a FIFA Nella, of course. That's about it. I don't know. I don't know that. That's pretty cool. I know Betty when she was in the tower

01:10:27.760 - 01:10:36.620

at H-Field. Yep, she sure did. Her name's right there in the corner. Okay. Alright. Yep.