00:00:03.140 - 00:00:23.860

We do have a very sad incident in our family in that we lost our grandson on the USS Cole. And so I don't know how you want to treat that at all, but that's a toughie. That's up to you. That will be up to you because I will ask you about your grandchildren, because I can

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see you have. Okie dokie. We're rolling. >> Okay. I'm Deanie Parrish with Wings Across America.

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We are interviewing Betty Brown. She was a WASP, class 44W7. >> That's right. >> We are in her home in Sun City, Arizona.

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Today is the 15th of November, 2001. The videographer is Nancy Parrish. >> That would be me. >> Okay, Betty, if you will start off by giving us your full name

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and when and where you were born. Yes. Name is Betty June Overman Brown. That's the whole nine yards there. And I was born in Adalessa, Iowa on June 18, 1923.

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But I moved out of there when I was two months old. Moved to Michigan and grew up in Michigan area. Do you know why your family moved? Yes.

00:01:27.520 - 00:01:52.540

They had alternately done farming, which with just the two of them and small children apparently turned out to be a pretty hard task, especially for my mom. And then Dad worked in a yard, a general store in Adelessa, Iowa, and he was pretty good at that.

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We lived apparently in up over the store, it was that type of an arrangement. And I believe that about that time Ford Motor Company and many other opportunities opened up in the Detroit area. For some reason or another, my grandfather had gone to Detroit, that's my mom's dad,

00:02:18.000 - 00:02:37.960

and he was a carpenter. And he either had a home built there or built it himself, I don't know exactly what. But this was to be available apparently to our family. And so, they just put everything in a car and just took off for Detroit.

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That's just the way it was. I can't imagine doing it with the facilities that they had at that time. Kelly: Did you have siblings? McMillan: Yes, had two sisters and a brother.

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And they are all older. I'm the youngest one of the group. And yes, I remember pictures of them taken on the farm, hauling the milk pails and all of that sort of thing.

00:03:08.360 - 00:03:16.380

They wish I had been a part of it. But... When they got to Michigan, where did you live? Did you live in town?

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Lived in town on the west side of Detroit. That was home to me. And I spent until my sophomore year in high school at that one house. And did your dad work for Ford?

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You know, wound up that he got a job with a wholesale supplying company. And I'm not sure exactly what he started in at, but wound up as a carpet salesman on the road. And he worked at that for many years, yes.

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And he was perfect at it. He was a born salesman. happy man, could be in contact with anyone that he spoke to very easily and very happily. Good.

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Were you ever able to go with him on the road? No. No. What did your mom do when your dad was gone so much?

00:04:21.840 - 00:04:32.940

Did she have outside activities? Not an awful lot, no. However, she was a beautiful seamstress. She made all of our clothes.

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I remember as a kid, we wore in the wintertime leggings and she made an outfit for me. I must have been all of six or seven years old. Leggings and a coat out of what I remember as a kind of a camel hair looking material. I was so proud of that.

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There were zippers in the side and oh, it was marvelous. And she made most all of our clothes. No Kmart, no Walmart to go to in those days. Tell me about your grandparents.

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I don't know an awful lot about them. This grandfather that built this house that we lived in, I don't remember him there in the early years at all. And my first recollection of him was that he was back in Iowa somewhere, and he got

00:05:32.840 - 00:05:48.420

to the point where he could not take care of himself. And I remember that we made a trip back in the car. I don't remember which car that was, an old Willys Knight, or you remember what those cars were like.

00:05:50.020 - 00:06:05.360

we picked him up and brought him back to live with us. By that time, he was kind of a hard to get along with gentleman, and I was not very close with him. No, no.

00:06:05.640 - 00:06:30.800

Tell me what a Christmas was like in your home growing up. We used to have fun at Christmas time. I remember one Christmas we decided to give Dad, the kids, we kids, decided to give Dad a cameo ring and went to, well I wasn't there, a part of the picking the ring out,

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but I know when they brought it home they didn't want to wrap it in a small package. So we proceeded to wrap it in this one and this one and this one. We wound up with a box about so big, and Dad worked and worked at that present to get it open and he got a big kick out of it.

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But yes, Christmas was always a real special occasion. So was Easter. We did a lot of family things in regard to both of those holidays. During that time, was turkey the main dish?

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You know, I don't remember turkey at all. We had chicken. Mom made beautiful apple dumplings, and I remember chicken dinners and apple dumplings as my very favorite meal.

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Do you recall in your very early years going on vacations, except the one time you went to pick up your granddad? Do you remember going any place as a family? Yes, as a matter of fact.

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My family was very outdoor-oriented, and we enjoyed fishing. When I was real small, I think that we did not have our summer camp. First I remember our summer camp on Bishop Lake near Brighton, Michigan, was when Granddad and Dad built a frame for the tent that we always took with us so that we had a floor

00:08:23.720 - 00:08:52.120

in the tent and sides with screens in the side, and we'd put this tent over this frame. And when it was hot, we'd pull up the sides, so the screening would be protecting us, but we'd have fresh air in the tent. We established at a lake about 50 miles from where we lived in Detroit, and that was the

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joy of my life. I looked forward to those summers when I could go barefoot and run around in the sand and swim in that spring-fed lake. It was a glorious thing to have happen to me in my childhood.

00:09:11.420 - 00:09:22.540

And I think that's probably why I enjoy, I know it is, why I enjoy the outdoors in every way. I say these days I could live outdoors. I really enjoy it.

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Do you recall other families that you became acquainted with that you would meet? Oh yes, we had neighbors that we associated with closely. We had a group that got together on Sundays to play baseball up on the hill behind our camps.

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What position did you play? Oh, heavens, anything I could. I loved baseball. This was the days of the Detroit Tigers, you know.

00:10:01.500 - 00:10:23.060

Baseball was a favorite thing of ours. Probably had something to do with the fact that my dad had played baseball back in Iowa and had actually been approached to play professional baseball, which he turned down, I think probably because he had four kids, I do not know.

00:10:24.680 - 00:10:37.620

But we always followed baseball closely. Kelly: When you go fishing, do you remember what you fished with? Do you get a cane pole? McMillan: A cane pole, sure, and worms.

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Yes, I would get up early in the morning, or a friend would come over and scratch on that screen to wake me up in the morning, and we'd get in the boat and off we'd go fishing. Yes, that was a lot of fun for me.

00:10:55.720 - 00:11:13.360

Do you recall your first day at school, going to school? No, I don't recall the first day. I recall some items about, some things about my early days at school. I remember the day, first grade I think it was.

00:11:14.720 - 00:11:26.900

and I came home and the folks asked me what the name of the teacher was, and I said, "It's something like Miss Diarrhea." All names didn't turn out to be that at all.

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It was Miss Diarrhea, but I heard diarrhea. And then of course, I remember going through the little red hen book, and they wouldn't let you turn the page

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until everybody was ready for it and all of that, yes. And I had a teacher in, I don't know what grade it was, but it was geography, who I felt was a very fierce personality

00:11:56.640 - 00:12:06.220

because when she'd get aggravated about us not catching a point that she was trying to teach, she'd say, "I'm gonna cut a hole in your head

00:12:06.280 - 00:12:23.220

"and pour it right in your head." And all of we students just became paralyzed with this fear with this woman. My mom straightened her out though and got that cleared up so that she never pulled that one again.

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Do you recall any male teachers in elementary school? Not in elementary school. Where was the school from your house? We walked to school.

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We had a busy highway, busy in those days, to cross and the procedure was that the parent would choose some older child in the neighborhood that was going to the school to take you along with them and make sure that you got to school okay. I suppose it was, I'm no good at distances, I love maps, but distances get me, I suppose it was a half mile away. Yes.

00:13:08.060 - 00:13:23.900

How large was the school? Did you have several first grades? No, one first grade, one first grade, one kindergarten, one first grade. Do you remember in elementary what subjects you really enjoyed?

00:13:25.020 - 00:13:41.720

I really didn't care much for school. It took me quite a while to warm up to it. And I really don't remember that elementary school was a great joy to me at all. No.

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When you went on into, did you have a junior high? I had a junior high. Sixth grade? Yes, Wilson Elementary.

00:13:50.400 - 00:14:07.180

That opened doors to me. I enjoyed the getting in a school where things were not regimented. You could walk to a class at your own speed, you didn't have to stand in line and follow this one.

00:14:10.600 - 00:14:30.100

And the teachers seemed to treat you more as individuals, and I kind of liked that. How far was that? It was a separate building from the elementary? Oh yeah, it was a separate school, yes, but probably about the same distance away, and

00:14:30.120 - 00:14:45.060

I walked to that. And for lunch, what would you do? Well, I was fortunate in that I was chosen to be a monitor at the candy and potato chip counter, and I loved this.

00:14:51.500 - 00:15:07.780

And our lunch, and after most of the kids had gone and had their lunches, then I would go in for my free lunch. You know what, I don't remember. I didn't ever have any problem about what they fed, what they had for lunch, but I don't

00:15:07.860 - 00:15:24.840

really remember too much about the food. In junior high, do you remember a subject that you really enjoyed? Well, I remember being introduced to Latin and wondering what good this was going to do me.

00:15:27.480 - 00:15:42.600

And I enjoyed the Latin teacher very much. She was a very nice lady. I was intrigued at that time with mathematics and algebra, and I enjoyed those. I do remember that.

00:15:43.280 - 00:15:56.360

In junior high, do you recall outside activities other than just academics, like speech clubs, drama, music? Were you into sports? Music I was.

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I was in glee club. What part did you sing? Soprano. In the Glee Club, did you compete with other schools?

00:16:09.630 - 00:16:28.760

I don't remember doing that. I remember putting on programs and singing our little hearts out for the programs, but I don't remember any dealings with other schools. And did you have an outstanding teacher in junior high that you were--

00:16:28.880 - 00:16:37.900

Well, my Latin teacher I liked real well. Even though you didn't know what Latin was for. McMillan: That's right. I don't know, I can't figure that one out.

00:16:39.250 - 00:17:03.860

Kelly: By the time you got to junior high, what were your social activities like? McMillan: Well, I sure began to notice the boys a lot. I don't remember that there were any special activities for some reason or another. Were you involved in any activities at a church?

00:17:04.810 - 00:17:25.820

Oh, yes. We went to Sunday school every Sunday and took part in Christmas pageants and that sort of thing, but I can't remember anything specifically about that. Do you remember any specific parts you had in a pageant?

00:17:27.140 - 00:17:38.040

You know, I can't. And then once you finished junior high, you went on into high school. Was that the same building or another? No, this was another building, Western High School.

00:17:39.140 - 00:18:04.420

And that again was another enjoyable step, more freedom, more taking on responsibility for myself rather than being regimented. And I really learned to love school, in high school. I really did.

00:18:04.570 - 00:18:22.840

I loved studying. I loved the subjects. I remember English and Shakespeare, and I remember physics and chemistry and algebra, and I liked all of them.

00:18:23.380 - 00:18:42.800

I got very sick one semester in, it was one card marking that was it, I think for a six-week period. I got strep throat and it was very serious and at that time there were no antibiotics to fight it.

00:18:44.340 - 00:19:06.360

So I was out of school for a whole six weeks. Fortunately, friends of mine would bring me homework to do, so I kept up fairly well and got back to school. And the next card marking, I got all As but one.

00:19:06.670 - 00:19:25.560

I got a B in English. And wasn't I some put out? I went and talked to this English teacher and her only excuse for giving me a B was that nobody ever came down from a D, which is what I had for the past marking, to an

00:19:25.640 - 00:19:31.660

A. They never did it. I said, "Well, I've done A work. I should have an A." And so she gave me an A.

00:19:32.240 - 00:19:39.660

Yeah. Yeah. Right. Betty, why do you think you had a turnaround as far as enjoying school?

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Was it the teachers? Why do you think that happened? McKenna: I do not know whether it was a case of, "Why fight it? Why not join it?"

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I know that there was a school, a classmate that sat in front of me, Faye Nichols, that seemed to have the answer to everything. She could get As so easily, and I do not know whether that had any effect on me or not, but I suddenly decided that studying and learning things would be a real good deal.

00:20:29.980 - 00:20:55.180

Do you think at that point that you became competitive? If I were competitive, I would say that I was competing with myself. I was not anyone to compare to. Well, of course I did speak about Fay Nichols, didn't I?

00:20:56.260 - 00:21:13.320

But in my conscience I say that in my life I compete only with myself. But might there have been that feeling that if she can do it, why can't I do it? Well, probably so. Probably so.

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Then throughout your school career, who were your role models? Well I suppose movie stars played a part in it, and Katherine Hepburn was always a favorite of mine. I admired my mother, my sisters greatly.

00:22:10.020 - 00:22:26.380

I guess that would be pretty much it. I'd have to think further about that. I hadn't thought about role models. While you were, during school years, how did your mom and dad, or did they participate

00:22:26.380 - 00:22:45.940

in things concerning the school? Not an awful lot. I was, of course, the fourth child, and maybe they were a little tired of a lot of participation, but I remember in those days that parents did participate an awful lot.

00:22:46.040 - 00:23:09.180

They'd come to programs that we were in, that I was in, but I don't recall that it went any further than that. There was no PTA action or anything resembling it at that time. As you grew up, were you involved in things like Girl Scouts or any of those organizations?

00:23:11.980 - 00:23:48.800

Just went to the lake, huh? Just went to the lake, yeah, and played baseball and tag and hide and seek and all kinds of than fished, and bicycled, and swam. I learned to swim at a very early age. And in high school, they had a swimming pool, and I really enjoyed that. And I was elected to the captain of the

00:23:48.800 - 00:24:09.880

swim team for Western High School. And then, that was in my, the end of the sophomore year, but then it was that summer that we moved away from the area. So I never was able to operate, so to speak, as a president of the swimming team, because

00:24:09.920 - 00:24:24.280

I switched to another school. And they didn't have a swimming pool. Do you recall why you moved? Yes, Mom and Dad wanted to move out of the neighborhood and into the suburbs, and that's

00:24:24.380 - 00:24:43.920

where we wound up in the pattern of the airport. Our location was in the pattern of the local airport. How did that move affect you since you were already in high school, to leave your friends and go to a brand new school?

00:24:44.680 - 00:25:08.040

I didn't feel that I was moving that far away from them. As it turned out, I was. But initially I thought, "This is not going to separate us at all." I did lose track of classmates that I'd gone all the way from grade one to the eleventh

00:25:08.040 - 00:25:26.880

grade with, and I'm still trying to track down some of them. But I was very enthused about the move, I recall that. It was out into much more of a country setting, and being the outdoor girl that I am, I thought that was pretty wonderful.

00:25:28.840 - 00:25:41.140

It was a very nice community to move into. How did it affect your grades? Got along fine, yes, got along fine. As you were growing up, what were your dreams?

00:25:41.460 - 00:26:03.880

What did you want to be? Well, I wanted to be a baseball player at one stage in my life. But as you approached graduation in high school. And then swimming, to be a swimmer, like, oh my word, what was her name at that time?

00:26:09.480 - 00:26:34.520

I didn't have any definite ideas about what I did want to do. It was a wide-open screen for me. I was very intent upon the fact that I wanted to do a lot. I remember a popular thing in those days, of course, was when you got out of high school,

00:26:34.680 - 00:26:51.460

get married, and nobody could get a yes out of me. I had too much that I wanted to do when I graduated from high school, and I did do a lot. In high school, did you have a boyfriend?

00:26:52.850 - 00:27:07.540

Yes, I had several boyfriends. Tell me about your high school prom. Oh my. I haven't thought about that for a long time.

00:27:09.340 - 00:27:30.740

How did I meet that gentleman? Had you been dating? This was a young man that was going to a military school in Virginia, what was the name, VMI. And he came to pick me up for the prom, all dressed up in his uniform.

00:27:32.320 - 00:27:47.860

You never saw anything so beautiful. And I looked pretty nice too. and my sister had made me a gorgeous dress for the prom. But when we got to the prom,

00:27:47.980 - 00:27:55.560

I think that we must have bowled the rest of them over. (laughs) We didn't stay very long at the prom. We danced quite a little bit,

00:27:55.600 - 00:28:05.120

and then left to go out and get something to eat or something or another. But I hadn't thought about that for a long time. What was his name?

00:28:07.380 - 00:28:19.580

Nice time though. And then, describe your graduation. Did you have caps and gowns? Yes we did.

00:28:23.740 - 00:28:40.060

I don't have too many memories about that. Overall in high school, what kind of student were you? I was an A student. When you graduated from high school, what were your plans?

00:28:41.530 - 00:28:50.540

Well, I don't know. I had the lead in the senior play. Well, tell us about that. Well, it was no Brigadoon or anything like that.

00:28:50.620 - 00:29:24.340

I think it was Annie Laurie was the play, and I was Annie Laurie. different from what the senior plays are these days. We had a great time doing it though and I was real impressed, no impressed is not the word, joyful about doing that sort of thing. I don't know that I aspired to being any movie star

00:29:24.420 - 00:29:57.960

although that Catherine Hepburn kept coming up you know, but I really didn't have any special plans as I got out of school. I can remember I applied and was accepted at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor and even had my job lined up because it was necessary for me to put myself through school, through college. And then about a month before

00:29:57.960 - 00:30:21.460

school began, I decided that I really was scraping the bottom of the barrel money-wise, and that it would be well for me to work for a year before I went on. And I really wasn't all that specific about what I wanted to study. So I waited the year, and then of course the war began.

00:30:22.200 - 00:30:34.160

DC: During that year, did you get a job? HD: Yes, I did. DC: And did you live at home? Lived at home, traveled into Detroit, which was probably half, three quarters of an hour

00:30:34.500 - 00:30:57.300

drive. The people that owned the firm that I worked for were also residents of this subdivision that we lived in, so I had a ride both ways, which worked out well. And I was a switchboard operator and inventory recorder, and I enjoyed the work.

00:30:59.240 - 00:31:27.440

Do you recall where you were and how you heard about Pearl Harbor? Yes, indeed. My mom and dad had moved to Flint because dad was to be in charge of a wholesale carpet there and I had gone up to visit them and we had been out in the evening and

00:31:27.460 - 00:31:48.620

we, or no, we had been out for the morning. Wasn't that a Sunday and had we gone to church? I think that was it. And when we came back to the house and turned the radio on, that's when we heard about it. Yes, yeah. Once they moved to Flint, where did you live?

00:31:48.670 - 00:32:11.500

I lived with my sister, who had a home about two blocks from the area where I had lived with my mom and dad there in that subdivision. When those airplanes, when you were in the traffic pattern, was that the first time that you had thought about airplanes?

00:32:11.760 - 00:32:32.060

Yes. I had no special penchant for airplanes at all or anything about them prior to that time. I had never been around them, no, at all. Where did you get your inspiration, or how did you first hear about the WASP training

00:32:32.360 - 00:32:55.740

program? To go back a little bit. As I say, we were right in the traffic pattern of the airport and the little airplanes that I didn't have any idea what their name was were going over at say three or four hundred

00:32:55.940 - 00:33:15.920

feet on their climb out, you know. And I just began to wonder, "What in the world does it look like from up there?" And then, driving by the airport, seeing all those little bugs sitting around, it was curiosity about the whole thing.

00:33:16.080 - 00:33:40.400

Then, after the war began, I had gone from my original job to working at Burroughs Adding Machine Company in Plymouth. And I worked there a short while, but then when the war began, as everyone felt, they wanted a job that was going to help out the war effort.

00:33:40.700 - 00:34:04.100

And I located work at General Motors Diesel, and they were working twenty-four hours a day. And I got on the midnight shift. They made tanks and engines for tanks for the Army.

00:34:05.500 - 00:34:25.660

I worked in the payroll department there. All the offices were on twenty-four hours, which was amazing to me. In the process of driving to Detroit Diesel, I kept going by this airport all the time, you know, there on Plymouth Road.

00:34:26.700 - 00:34:39.060

And it just became more intriguing to me all the time. And I found that there was a timekeeper that worked at Diesel there who owned an airplane at that airport.

00:34:40.320 - 00:34:50.920

And then there was another friend of mine that was well acquainted with this gentleman. And so we were introduced and I talked about my interest

00:34:51.040 - 00:35:05.960

in getting up there to see what it looked like. And he was very willing to take me for a ride. And so that happened. And I just thought this was the most wonderful experience

00:35:05.960 - 00:35:13.120

in the world. Came down, went right over to the office, and wanted to take flying lessons. Started right then.

00:35:15.800 - 00:35:25.480

And that was a lot of fun. I never was loaded with money. And there were times when I'd go to the airport when I'd only have enough for 20 minutes of dual time,

00:35:25.660 - 00:35:40.980

but we would go up for 20 minutes and do instruction. And I didn't know how the family would react to this. I guess that's the reason why I kept it a secret from the family.

00:35:41.460 - 00:35:53.900

I mean, I thought I kept it as a secret. I would go to the airport often and I would ride my bike to get to the airport. And I'd always say that I was going to watch the airplanes,

00:35:54.540 - 00:36:04.920

but someone caught on because the day that I sold, they were right there to watch. Now this is my brother-in-law and my sister that I lived with, yeah.

00:36:05.740 - 00:36:16.600

- And when did your mom and dad find out? And how did they react? - They were up in Flint, of course, this time. And well, I think it was flabbergasting

00:36:16.770 - 00:36:36.760

to the whole family that I should, because nobody had ever done that before, and showed no interest in it. And I, you know, hadn't reflected that much interest in it. So I think it kind of floored them for a while, but there was never anyone that objected to

00:36:37.200 - 00:36:57.520

that was a wonderful part of my growing up. In particular, they would emphasize my freedom to do whatever I wanted to do, and I was capable of doing whatever I wanted to do. Did you know any other girls who were flying?

00:36:57.940 - 00:37:13.820

No, not at the time. And what made you think you could do that? Well I don't know. I could do anything I wanted to, and I wanted to do that.

00:37:15.660 - 00:37:24.580

What was the first airplane that you flew in? Taylorcraft. Can you recall your solo flight? Oh yes.

00:37:25.680 - 00:37:49.400

That other seat was very empty, I recall that. And I landed northwest on the Northwest Runway. It was a thrill. Did anything unusual happen while you were flying during those early periods in the small

00:37:49.500 - 00:38:06.660

airplanes? I soloed from Wayne County National Airport there on the corner of Plymouth and Middlebelt Road. I took ground school there, had ground school classes.

00:38:07.460 - 00:38:32.140

And of course it was marvelous working the midnight shift and then working the afternoon shift because it gave me all the time in the world. Not so much money, I had to go by that too, but I could get in my flying hours during the morning, fly when I wanted to.

00:38:33.140 - 00:38:53.780

Then why did I switch to Triangle Airport? I do not quite know, but this airport was probably a couple of miles off in the other direction, a very small airport. There was a woman instructor there.

00:38:54.660 - 00:39:18.480

Her name was Ruby, and I cannot remember her last name. She was a big, jovial, good-natured gal. However, I did not take any instruction from her. It was a gentleman that gave me instruction.

00:39:18.700 - 00:39:46.820

However, I met a man there, a fellow that owned a Luscombe, and he was gaining time his commercial license to make an application for his commercial. And he volunteered to let me fly with him when he was going up, of course he had a private license, when he was going up to get his time.

00:39:47.900 - 00:40:06.580

And so it wound up that I did quite a bit of flying in that Luscombe, flew it myself. And we would make trips up to see my folks in Flint together. I loved that Luscombe airplane. That was a very good airplane.

00:40:07.200 - 00:40:23.160

Why did you take Brown School? Was that required in order to get a license? Yes, that was required to get a private pilot's license. I took navigation and I loved maps.

00:40:23.360 - 00:40:36.700

I always have loved maps. So navigation was a real interesting subject for me. And then there was weather. And oh, I had quite a time with weather.

00:40:36.860 - 00:40:53.920

It's so unpredictable. But that's all I remember. I'm sure that there were other subjects involved, but those two I remember very well. Okay, we're gonna change tape. Okay. So how you doing?

00:40:54.960 - 00:41:08.680

All right, you tell me how I'm doing. You're doing great. You're doing great. I can see that guy in his uniform. Oh, me too, and I'm wondering. I can see you walking into the prom. Okay. All right. I'm gonna get a drink of water while you change the tape.

00:41:08.840 - 00:41:16.340

Wait, let me unclip you. Oh, I didn't realize I was clipped. It's just this little thing right here. You just get this little microphone. Okay. Now move her.

00:41:17.800 - 00:41:45.020

You're doing just fabulous. This is great. Oh, I hope I am. Absolutely. I hope I am for you. Oh no, for you and for us. Okay. Studying weather. Yes, yes. Your favorite course. Who were your instructors in ground school?

00:41:45.360 - 00:41:54.000

McMillan: Oh, you mean in those days? Kelly: When you were doing private flying? McMillan: I don't have any idea. I can't even picture them.

00:41:54.000 - 00:41:59.980

Kelly: But they were civilians? McMillan: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. And this was a very loose thing.

00:42:00.400 - 00:42:21.400

This was not an organized—I mean, if two or three of us showed up for whatever the class was going to be that night, then that was pretty good. The ironic thing about me not getting along too well with that weather class is my husband is a nut on weather.

00:42:21.430 - 00:42:37.920

He can predict weather better than any weatherman you hear on television. He's so good at it. And I didn't mean to pick him out, you know, because of that. This all came up later.

00:42:41.280 - 00:42:54.100

Yes, the ground school, it was one of those things, you know, that I was going off and doing on my own and I thoroughly enjoyed it, even though weather was a little tough for me. I enjoyed that.

00:42:54.220 - 00:43:00.860

What were your goals as far as learning to fly that airplane? Lowry: Have fun. Kelly: Just to have fun. Lowry: Yeah.

00:43:01.800 - 00:43:21.380

Kelly: While you were learning to fly and during those first months, did you see any other girls flying? Lowry: No, only Ruby, as I say, who was the instructor at Triangle. I do not remember any other gals flying.

00:43:24.780 - 00:43:51.900

I used to go to a beauty shop there near the subdivision to get my haircuts. The gal that waited on me was very interested in the fact that I was flying. And she began flying. Now, that must have been—no, that was at Metatol Field.

00:43:52.100 - 00:44:19.980

That was at another airport that I've used. I didn't really know that she was into it so deeply, but she made application to the WASP about the same time I did. And she received a letter to meet an interviewer down in Detroit, and I received no letter.

00:44:20.060 - 00:44:51.540

I'd received several notices from them that they weren't taking anybody now, I wasn't old enough, what the hours were required in order to enter the WASP and all that, but she'd gotten all that taken care of. And as I say, had gotten this letter from Jackie saying to report to the Hotel Statler

00:44:51.660 - 00:45:04.160

down in Detroit, and I did not get one, but I went anyway. And I went out for the interview, and I got accepted. You asked me how I heard about the WASP. It's interesting.

00:45:05.720 - 00:45:39.140

My brother-in-law also worked at Detroit Diesel, and he was a salesman and acquainted with diesel outlets or retail places in Texas somewhere, and I'm not quite sure, I think it was Dallas, Fort Worth. He had apparently told them about me taking flying lessons, and they sent a brochure to

00:45:39.680 - 00:45:58.540

me that they had gotten from Aviation Enterprises, which is the outfit that was in charge there at Sweetwater. And it, what was it entitled? Service and Overhaul of Engines for the U.S. Army, that's what it was.

00:45:59.840 - 00:46:25.680

And this was a big book, so I'm opening this and they're showing overall stuff. back further in the book and there's WASP there in the pictures and they're studying, they're working on engines and sprawled on the flight line like some of our popular pictures show them.

00:46:26.660 - 00:46:46.100

And that's the first inkling that I had that there was such an organization. And then of course the July, whatever, Magic Life magazine came out with the article on the WASP and that did it. That's when I started writing all the letters.

00:46:46.780 - 00:47:02.760

I wrote first I remember to Romulus because that's where the gals were, the WAFs were flying, you know. And Adele Schar wrote back to say that I had to get in touch with Jackie Cochran and so forth.

00:47:03.260 - 00:47:21.380

But, oh, when that magic letter did arrive, that I could report for training, February 12, 1944. That was magic. Let me ask you about that gutsy move to go to that interview.

00:47:22.760 - 00:47:42.880

What happened when you got there? I pulled the dumbest trick. In a lull in the conversation with this woman, whose name was Ethel Sheehy, just to fill in the time or the silence, I

00:47:43.040 - 00:48:03.660

said, do you do much flying? This lady had flown competition races. That shows you what a lack of background I had in anything having to do with aviation. I thought, "Oh, there, I didn't bring a letter.

00:48:04.400 - 00:48:11.200

I'd pull up a dumb question like that. I'm shot down, I'm sure." But I wasn't. I was accepted.

00:48:11.460 - 00:48:25.760

KD: When she found out you were standing out there waiting to be interviewed, did she object in any way? AG: Not at all. I don't remember that there was any objection to it, and I don't remember that there was

00:48:25.820 - 00:48:41.720

a singular face-to-face interview. I think it was a group of us. Maybe Norma Trucks was there. There were only two or three of us there, as I recall.

00:48:42.840 - 00:48:50.680

I can't swear to that, however. Kelly: And then what did she tell you would be your next step? McMillan: I don't know. I don't remember.

00:48:50.860 - 00:48:58.640

Do you recall having a physical? Yes. What was that like? I had quite a problem.

00:48:58.880 - 00:49:17.860

I was nervous about my eyes, my eyesight, because through high school I had worn glasses. In my senior year, I think only, I had worn glasses. So I made arrangements with some eye doctor in downtown Detroit

00:49:17.860 - 00:49:37.340

to see him and I did eye exercises that you wouldn't believe to make apparently got my eyes in good enough shape to pass the physical for which I was so thankful. And now you're working in a war-related industry,

00:49:37.700 - 00:49:58.300

which is necessary for the war effort. It was. What were you required to do to be able to leave that job? I had to report to some office in downtown Detroit and talk to them, because their first

00:50:00.660 - 00:50:19.360

decision about this was that they would not release me. Now I don't know whether the folks at General Motor Diesel had anything to do with it. I have a hunch that it did because Mr. Kuhlman, who was my supervisor there in payroll, was also a pilot.

00:50:21.240 - 00:50:46.780

It could well be that he had a few words to say about the importance of my going to take my training. I don't know for sure, but anyway, they released me. Can you explain why they had to give you a release?

00:50:49.870 - 00:51:08.780

McMillan Because anyone that worked in any job that was in any way related to the war effort, they were considered to be very important on that job. Kelly: And frozen in that job.

00:51:08.780 - 00:51:24.920

McMillan: And frozen in that job, right. Kelly: Once you got the letter of release and had your physical, then how did you receive notification that you were accepted and when to report? McMillan: Oh, that magic letter.

00:51:25.440 - 00:51:59.300

My mother had had an attack at Thanksgiving time and she was in the hospital, but she lived until the day after Christmas of 1943 and she knew about that letter and I was so grateful for that. She knew that I had been accepted, and in so many words, my mom said, "Go for it."

00:52:02.410 - 00:52:38.180

Kelly: Then how did you get from Detroit to Sweetwater, Texas? McMillan: The men folks in my family saw me off from the old Detroit City Airport. This was February in Detroit, colder than blazes, and early in the morning, a hazy morning, we took a couple of pictures that morning, which denotes what a poor flying day it was.

00:52:39.220 - 00:53:05.900

But off I went on American Airlines DC-3, my first flight on an airliner. And the family had paid for this for me to get down to Dallas. And the weather continued to be bad all the way. I remember we stopped at Fort Wayne, mind you, for gas.

00:53:07.300 - 00:53:30.660

And we took off from Fort Wayne, and as I recall, we were to land in either Tulsa or Wichita for gas again, and the weather was too poor. We overflew that and went right on, I think, to Dallas to land, which was quite an experience for me, never having been on an airliner before.

00:53:33.680 - 00:53:52.360

I went to a hotel to get a room in Dallas, and there wasn't a room to be found in that whole place. But during the war years, the YMCA and the YWCA took an active part in locating places for people that couldn't get hotel rooms.

00:53:52.940 - 00:54:21.340

And I wound up, I think it was through YWCA, in the home of a doctor and his wife, in a room, and as I recall, I was there for a couple of days before I went to Sweetwater. And do you know, I can't remember for sure, but I must have taken a train from Dallas to Sweetwater.

00:54:22.260 - 00:54:39.120

I went right to the Blue Bonnet Hotel. Before you got to Sweetwater, had you met any of the other girls who were going also? McMillan: I must have met them on the train, but I don't remember that part of it, no. Kelly: Okay.

00:54:39.720 - 00:54:55.200

Recount how you felt when they took you out to Avenger Field. McMillan: Oh, I don't know if I can describe it. They came in the cattle wagon, of course, to pick us up, which was in itself quite a shock.

00:54:56.300 - 00:55:25.400

A cattle wagon is, I'll have to describe to you, it's a big truck with, and the back end of it is covered like the old covered wagons with canvas. And then there are seats along the side, on the inside, where you sit. This was our gorgeous transportation to Avenger Field.

00:55:26.040 - 00:55:47.860

And we had to get used to that because that's the way we got around anywhere after that while we were in training, was via the old cattle wagon. When we went to Auxiliary Field to fly, that's what we used. But I do remember getting off of that thing and seeing that great big FIFA Nella sign

00:55:48.400 - 00:56:05.160

up there. And you know, I remember that we all looked alike. We all wore our hair in a certain way. It was down and turned up and something about here that everybody wore the same hairdo.

00:56:05.780 - 00:56:25.480

And we all had an overnight case, and I swear they were all the same color. That was the impression I got. I think we were all just as amazed as the other one in the group at this site. And it is right out in the middle of nowhere, you know.

00:56:26.460 - 00:56:42.280

We were brought to these buildings. That was my impression. What is a FIFANELLA? Oh, a Fifi-Nella is our little personal gremlin that Walt Disney supplied, designed for us.

00:56:43.640 - 00:57:15.500

And I don't know, there are alternate, there are various explanations of what Fifi does. care of any troubles that we might come up against and gives us safe flying. Maybe we all have our own interpretations of what the FIFI does for us. Kelly: Then when you got out to the Fanger, what happened?

00:57:17.660 - 00:57:29.880

Were you assigned? No, we went to what seemed like a big auditorium there. Could it have been the mess hall? No.

00:57:30.800 - 00:57:47.160

Maybe the gym? Might have been the gym, uh-huh, might have been the gym. And I was so anxious to get acquainted with some of the other girls and know where they were from.

00:57:48.160 - 00:57:55.720

I think I turned into somewhat of a chatterbox. "Where are you from? Where are you from? How long have you been flying?"

00:57:55.820 - 00:58:14.180

All kinds of questions that I was asking that I think I was probably a pain in the neck. Then we all quieted down. What the lecture was about, what the welcome was about, I really don't remember about that.

00:58:18.260 - 00:58:37.500

And I don't remember being introduced to our bays, although that was quite a shock to walk in and see what our facilities were going to be. Not that I was against it at all, it was just different than anything I'd ever seen before. What was the biggest adjustment that you had to make?

00:58:37.640 - 00:58:53.800

I was homesick. This is the first time I'd ever been out of the state of Michigan except to go back to Iowa to pick up Grandpa. And I'd always been very close to them.

00:58:53.900 - 00:59:16.060

We were a very close-knit family. And I really was sick with homesickness. And of course what led to that was the fact that the previous class had not finished their flying in primary as yet.

00:59:16.860 - 00:59:42.900

So we could not go right into our schedule immediately. We had time on our hands. And that didn't help my homesickness at all either. However, I don't know who instigated the idea, but we put together a show to perform

00:59:43.180 - 01:00:10.080

on the stage for the rest of the WASPs that were already stationed there. Oh, we did a kind of a folly's number, we did a comedy number, which included a psychiatrist asking dumb questions. Probably had something to do with the questions they asked us there.

01:00:10.540 - 01:00:28.740

The feel, I don't know. There was considerable leg showing, I remember, to the point where they decided it would be a good idea if we took the show to Abilene to entertain the boys, and we did, and they loved it.

01:00:28.840 - 01:00:46.320

Oh, they thought it was great. And sang songs. I wish I could describe that a little more carefully because we were pretty good at it. But you see, that took up our time until we were able to begin to fly.

01:00:47.600 - 01:01:11.520

And besides that, I think that period of time lent to the close-knit situation that takes place in our class that I don't think any of the other classes had. We became acquainted with one another, had the opportunity to, where the other classes just got right in there and started flying.

01:01:13.440 - 01:01:29.580

What part did you play in that entertainment, do you recall? It was singing, and I think I did a leggy thing of some kind, but I can't remember for sure. It was fun, though.

01:01:33.180 - 01:01:51.560

Tell me about your roommates. Well, of course we were all alphabetical. So I met the Os and the Ps and the Ms and the Ns, and found that they were from all over the country.

01:01:55.360 - 01:02:18.260

Alberta was from Montana, two of the gals from Washington State, Betty Pettit was from—where was she from? Up in the northeast somewhere. And we slowly got acquainted.

01:02:18.320 - 01:02:41.320

EC: They were from all walks of life? JS: Yes. The two from Washington had quite a bit of flight time. They were from quite well-to-do families and quite sure of themselves.

01:02:42.090 - 01:03:06.420

EC: Was that intimidating to you, Betty? I don't know about intimidation, I had not bumped into women pilots that had this kind of bit of assurance in their position as pilots before. That wasn't a big thing, though.

01:03:06.660 - 01:03:24.020

Not a big thing. Not a big thing. I was impressed with the fact that my home site was an iron cot that didn't look very wide and a cupboard, and that was going to be my home.

01:03:25.180 - 01:03:41.540

And so those things that I brought in the suitcase, they had to be packed up and sent home. I didn't have any room to keep anything there. And then we went to town and--no, no, no, no.

01:03:42.100 - 01:04:10.480

First thing, we were issued our gorgeous zoot suits. Zoot suits are something that you don't bump into very often. What happened is the Army then had no uniform at all, trainee uniform for women. And so we got men's flight suits, and I think they were very careful to send the largest

01:04:10.600 - 01:04:28.700

sizes they had. We put them on, we had to roll up the legs, we had to take the belts and wrap them around us a couple of times, and owing up the sleeves too to get our hands out into the open. But that was all right.

01:04:29.000 - 01:04:52.040

It did not bother any of us. It was just rather unique. And then for days when we had inspection or when we were supposed to be more suitably clad, there was a department store, as I recall, a department store in town where we could

01:04:52.040 - 01:05:24.000

buy khaki slacks, which were dubbed "general's pants" or "GP's," and we wore khaki pants and a white shirt for anything where we had to appear decent. Another thing we were issued, too, before we started flying the Stearman—remember, was the middle of the winter, was the fleece-lined flight suits.

01:05:25.220 - 01:05:46.740

And when you put one of these on, really you were unrecognizable. And how we ever climbed up on the wing of the stearman to get in the airplane with these outfits on, I'll never know. They kept us fairly warm, although some of the gals admitted that they still wore their

01:05:46.580 - 01:05:59.680

pajamas underneath them, too, to keep warm. Kelly: When you got there and were waiting to start flying lessons, did you start ground school? McMillan: Yes.

01:06:00.520 - 01:06:20.960

The schedule ran where we would fly. Our flight schedule was during one half of the day, and our ground school schedule was the other half. And squeezed in there somewhere was our calisthenics, our time at the gym.

01:06:23.120 - 01:06:43.640

And we were divided into two flights, flight one and two. And while flight one was flying in the morning, we were ground schooling in the morning. And when they were flying in the afternoon, we were ground schooling in the afternoon. That's the way it worked.

01:06:44.680 - 01:07:05.940

In the very beginning, were you aware of why they were training women to fly, why they felt it was necessary? Oh yes, yes, indeed. In fact, on top of the fact that of course it was a marvelous opportunity to fly these

01:07:05.940 - 01:07:22.100

and beautiful airplanes, that sense that everyone had of wanting to help out in some way in the war effort. And this seemed like such a terrific way to contribute to the war effort, yes.

01:07:24.500 - 01:07:36.100

- Recall your first solo in, what were you flying? - The Stearman, the blessed Stearman. How I loved that airplane. And I loved my instructor.

01:07:36.660 - 01:07:52.800

He was great. Although, he never agreed with the WASP program at all. He said, you ladies should all be at home in the kitchen. But it didn't reflect at all on his instruction.

01:07:54.080 - 01:08:08.860

He was a man-- he was a pilot that enjoyed flying upside down as much as he did right side up. and enjoyed acrobatics. And I'm so thankful for that,

01:08:09.100 - 01:08:23.340

because I think it is, I've all, ever since that time, felt that that is such a basic need in instruction that one receives at the very first

01:08:23.560 - 01:08:41.680

in order to get the feel of the airplane. It's a magic way to get the feel of the airplane, and know it's, It's extremes, what can be done, how to—you're never caught by surprise in any situation.

01:08:41.710 - 01:09:05.080

You can recover from it if you've had enough acrobatics and aerobatics. But the upside-down stuff was a little tough to take at first, I know that. Hanging by your seatbelt was something new to me. During your primary training, did anything unusual happen to you at all?

01:09:09.560 - 01:09:23.240

Not that I can recall. It was a very joyous time. Nothing particularly happened to me except check rides, of course, and the check ride nerves.

01:09:24.440 - 01:09:49.200

But I remember a couple of incidents that took place with some of my cohorts. I mean, there was one instructor that was a tall, lanky Texan, talk with a draw, excuse me, and ordinarily didn't move quickly at all. Well, one day at the auxiliary field, we saw this stearman come into the pattern,

01:09:49.980 - 01:10:19.040

land, and almost before the airplane had stopped, this instructor jumped out, legs askew saying, "I lost my goddamned student! I lost my goddamn student!" And what had happened is they had been doing spins. He was demonstrating spins to her and she must have popped right out over the top as he made the recovery when you pop the stick

01:10:19.230 - 01:10:36.320

forward to get it out of the spin. She landed safely of course. I don't know for some reason and the safety belt had come loose and out she went. But I'll never forget that. I lost my goddamn student.

01:10:36.820 - 01:10:55.000

It's about all I can remember happening in primary. Kelly: When you finished primary, did you get some time off? McMillan: I doubt it. Kelly: During training, did you get some time off on weekends or anything?

01:10:55.040 - 01:11:09.460

and if so, what did you do with it? - Ordinarily, as I recall, we flew six days a week. If we had a bad day weather, we would fly seven days. We'd have to make up the time.

01:11:12.460 - 01:11:29.080

We did occasionally have time off because I can remember that we would take excursions to Sweetwater Lake. Some of the girls, the two in the bay, located a used car,

01:11:29.340 - 01:11:51.100

and we got around a little bit in that used car. And that must have been the way we got to Sweetwater Lake. Also, a family in town kind of adopted three of us. Alberta and Peg and I, and somebody else,

01:11:52.260 - 01:12:04.100

We're welcome at that home anytime we wanted to go. And as a matter of fact, I recall there was one time when I think we had the house all to ourselves for a weekend.

01:12:05.120 - 01:12:17.000

And of course, they served wonderful food. They were very, very gracious to us. - Have you kept in touch with them? - I hate to say this, no.

01:12:20.180 - 01:12:45.740

I have a picture of them. We went back, the 1982 reunion at Sweetwater, Peg and Alberta and I went to see the lady. I have a picture of her then. She remembered us well, of course, and her son remembered us well, too.

01:12:46.120 - 01:12:59.520

Gosh, what was his name? When you finished primary, do you recall any tradition that they had as far as soloing in primary? Indeed I do.

01:12:59.520 - 01:13:20.640

You got thrown into the wishing well. The wishing well was located in the center of the ground school buildings. And it had some kind of a thing in the center, you know, where it did that. And we would throw pennies in, lucky.

01:13:22.020 - 01:13:42.520

And then when you're soloed, you got thrown in, yes. And that was primary, AT-6s, BTs, whatever. I have a rumor, I think somebody told me that they stopped that, but I think that's a shame if they did.

01:13:43.920 - 01:14:01.760

I was pretty proud of being thrown in. As far as your meals, where would you eat? We had a mess hall. I think that there were a lot of complaints about the food, but I must have been hungry

01:14:01.860 - 01:14:12.300

all the time because I thought it was delicious. It was there that I was exposed to a dish that I had never ever tasted before. We had lots of it. is cobbler.

01:14:13.320 - 01:14:25.440

And my very favorite was peach cobbler. And we had a lot of peach cobblers when the peaches were in season. And ice cream, milkshakes.

01:14:25.700 - 01:14:36.180

Wonder I didn't get big as all get out. But of course, with the schedule we kept and with the calisthenics that we had, no chance to keep extra pounds on, I guess.

01:14:36.840 - 01:14:46.600

So we enjoyed our milkshakes and that was it. Tell me about the personnel that ran the base. Were they civilians? Were they Army?

01:14:47.200 - 01:15:10.340

What was the makeup? To run the base, it was basically civilians. If you are talking about the advisors and so forth, they were all civilian. Ethel Sheehy, my interviewer lady, was there.

01:15:11.340 - 01:15:28.640

Gosh, there are so many other good ones, but the Army's presence was very much there. We had an Army doctor to whom you reported for a sick call if you needed it.

01:15:29.880 - 01:15:48.640

Our PT instructor was Army. And, of course, we had our Army check pilots. Our ground school instructors were, yes, they were Army. Wonderful ground school instructors, especially for engines.

01:15:49.630 - 01:16:06.740

Tell me about ground school. Oh, well, you know, it seemed to me that it was pretty remarkable that you could take a bunch of women and teach them all about engines, and have them come out with very passable grades.

01:16:10.280 - 01:16:25.120

But Mr. Morissette, and I don't know whether this was Army policy or whether it was only his method of teaching, but he appealed to all the senses

01:16:25.120 - 01:16:49.060

that would take in information. He would write things, he had things written on the board, and then he'd go over them verbally either in the book or explaining them. And then he would have us write whatever, so that however you took in information, he

01:16:49.140 - 01:17:01.560

had it covered, you know. Well I think my final grade in engines was something like ninety-nine, and this was not unusual. The rest of the gals scored very high.

01:17:02.180 - 01:17:11.940

Now don't ask me too much about engines these days. I haven't kept up on it. [Laughter.] Was there anything difficult for you in ground school?

01:17:12.120 - 01:17:31.480

Yes, Morse code. I thought there would never come the day when I would understand all of those "d-d-d-d-d's." and I don't remember whether the instructor was a woman or a man, assured us that someday it would click and we would hear what it was saying.

01:17:32.040 - 01:17:51.580

And that finally happened, and we were welcomed. If it happened in the middle of a class, we were supposed to get up and leave the class. We tackled it, you know, for that day. That was our recognition of finally latching onto all those didots.

01:17:52.140 - 01:18:17.460

How did you use that Morse code? That was very important in our instrument flying. For station identification, for identification of your location from the cone of silence, Now, this is all a lot of Dutch to people that fly these days, where they're all oriented

01:18:17.640 - 01:18:36.640

to GPSs and whatnot, but our method of instrument flying was such that it was quite vital that you knew your Morse code. Kelly: Okay. When you finished primary, then what area did you go?

01:18:36.640 - 01:19:11.000

Our next step from primary was transition to the AT-6. Our training in wonderful Texas—couldn't be a better place to train on airplanes—our training in the Stearman, which is a narrow-gear airplane in the heavy winds of Texas, with Most of the runway is seemingly to be crosswind, and all of those things.

01:19:11.880 - 01:19:36.260

Marvelous training for going to the AT-6, also a tail dragger. And oh, that was a wonderful jump to the AT-6. I can remember my first takeoff and all that power. And pushing on the rudder to overcome the torque, and that was really living.

01:19:37.980 - 01:19:59.760

[Laughter.] Kelly: In your training, did any of your baymates wash out? McKenna: Yes, yes, we were continually having—as baymates washed out, the bays would consolidate and we would have different baymates in our room.

01:20:00.060 - 01:20:19.700

How would that make you feel when someone washed out? Oh, tremendously anxious. I had this, the fear of washing out was with me all the time. I was always afraid I was going to do something wrong and get booted out of this marvelous

01:20:20.020 - 01:20:42.260

program. I felt so badly for others that had to go through this. There were different attitudes that the girls had. You know, there were quite a few of the girls that made the decision to leave the WASP on

01:20:42.340 - 01:20:53.480

their own. I couldn't understand this. But there was that and there were reactions to some of the washouts that, "Well, that's the way it goes."

01:20:53.480 - 01:21:04.920

And others, of course, were heartbroken. Sad time. As you continued on, eventually you got into an instrument training. What was that about?

01:21:05.300 - 01:21:30.740

Well, that was after we had gotten so many hours, and it was a short period of time on the AT-6s. We went to the BT-13s for our instrument training, and that was quite different. We did a lot of buddy flying there, where one person would be the pilot of the airplane

01:21:30.840 - 01:21:48.020

while the other one was so-called under the hood and flying merely by instruments that were in front of him. Did you enjoy that particular phase? I enjoyed every bit of my WASP training.

01:21:48.140 - 01:22:04.600

I enjoyed every bit of it. It got scary at times, but as far as enjoyment, I was having the time of my life. What was the one time that you were most scared? Night flying.

01:22:06.020 - 01:22:18.720

That involved my eyes. I was apprehensive about how I could handle night flying, actually night landings, but I got along beautifully. What were you night flying in?

01:22:19.260 - 01:22:33.540

'86. That's quite an experience the first time you go up night flying. You see all those stars and you think that they're all airplanes coming right at you until you calm down.

01:22:35.660 - 01:22:44.780

- Okay. - Okay, we're gonna change the tape. - Benny, you've got some of the best descriptions. - That's why I-- - She's asking you questions because you're describing it so well.

01:22:45.460 - 01:22:51.320

- Thank you. - It's like you're there. It's wonderful. - And you noticed that, didn't you? - Yes, I did.

01:22:51.440 - 01:22:59.780

- 'Cause sometimes I don't ask all of this, but we need some-- - I mean, she wouldn't ask everybody about to describe everything,

01:23:00.380 - 01:23:08.520

because then you'd have, you know, But yours are unique. My new new new-- --all head came off.

01:23:09.100 - 01:23:22.360

And my hair wound up about this long all over. I looked in the mirror, and I was simply aghast. But it was a great haircut, because you didn't have any problem with the hair getting in your eyes.

01:23:22.860 - 01:23:30.500

And you just cut each other's. That's right. We just cut each other's hair. And some of us wound up looking kind of funny, too.

01:23:36.220 - 01:23:39.840

>> Sorry, I'm looking for a clip. Go ahead. You can talk, actually. >> Okay.

01:23:39.840 - 01:23:58.120

>> You can... >> Okay. Describe what an auxiliary field was. >> Well, of course, with so many different types of airplanes, AT-6s, BT-13s, PT-7s,

01:23:58.120 - 01:24:31.540

T-17s flying and also at different stages of learning, it's necessary to have an auxiliary field to take some of the weight off of the main field. And so the auxiliary fields were used by the primary trainers and it was simply a grass field. And there was, what do we call that? Not a ready room, because it hardly was ready.

01:24:34.680 - 01:24:51.320

There was obviously a john there somewhere, and some place to get in and out of the weather if you needed to, but it was only about so big. And that was pretty much it, as I recall. Hold it just a second. I'm going to put this back.

01:24:52.600 - 01:25:02.860

That way we'll hear what you're saying. Okay. Would the John really be just an outhouse? You know, I can't remember that, but it had to be.

01:25:03.100 - 01:25:24.980

I mean, this was out on a grass field somewhere. How would your schedule be when you went to the auxiliary field? Well, of course, we all had to take turns at flying with our instructors. There were four students to each instructor.

01:25:28.200 - 01:25:43.460

And how did that work? You usually went up for an hour instruction, and of course, after solo, then you would go out and fly yourself, too. I can't remember the figures.

01:25:44.360 - 01:26:09.940

But we were supposed to fly at least two hours a day, which of course is what makes you—it's very important in becoming a pilot to keep consistently at it every day. So it was two hours in the air every day, whether it was instruction or whether it was solo work.

01:26:12.480 - 01:26:34.300

And we would simply take those turns as we were at the auxiliary field. Some of us would be relegated to fly the airplane back to the big field. When the flight session was over, I remember I was one of the first ones to be called upon to do this.

01:26:35.220 - 01:27:00.380

And I never made so many landings in one approach as I did that first time. Like a jackrabbit all the way down. And that's the way we got the airplanes coming and going from the auxiliary field. Otherwise, the ones that weren't flying, of course, cattle wagon.

01:27:01.880 - 01:27:24.760

Do you recall, since the PTs did not have radios, how did you know how to get in or when to come in? Well, of course, all right, you're talking about instruction from the ground, I see. How would you get clearance to land?

01:27:25.940 - 01:27:50.740

That was by light, red light or green light from the tower. It's interesting too to talk about the conversation between the pilot and the instructor, the student and the instructor. We had what was called Gosports.

01:27:53.320 - 01:28:23.960

The student had a helmet and the Gosport tubes were connected on each side of the head, and And that ran to underneath the cockpit up to the instructor, who could talk into the thing and talk to you while you were in flight. I hadn't thought about that for quite a while.

01:28:26.820 - 01:28:46.040

Did you ever have an instructor whose language might not have been— I was lucky in that respect, but there were some of the girls that were not so lucky. I think they learned more cuss words there at Avenger Field than they'd ever heard before.

01:28:47.460 - 01:29:04.080

Also, there was one instructor that had the habit of hitting the stick back and forth, And the kids would come back with black and blue marks on their knees from this fellow's fury. Yes.

01:29:04.240 - 01:29:31.160

Kelly: When you finished your primary and your transition, then you went into the ET-13. Becky: Oh, yes. Kelly: Describe what instrument flying included. Well, I've explained that the one that is in training on instruments is under a hood

01:29:32.080 - 01:30:01.160

in the airplane, can't see out at all, and flies merely by the instruments that are in front of him. And the object is to... well, we operated on the Abilene radio, and the radio there sends out signals,

01:30:04.400 - 01:30:22.720

and the signals are either a "da-da-ay" or a "da-dit," which is an "n." And if you hear an "a-da-da," you are not on the beam,

01:30:23.810 - 01:30:46.740

either coming or going toward what's called the cone, or the cone of silence, which is the vital point from which you commence landing. In the area where the "da-da" and the "da-dat" overlap, you get a solid sound, and that's how you know that you're on the beam.

01:30:47.860 - 01:31:06.640

Although you could be going in the wrong direction, you've got to ascertain that by flying for a while to see if the sound fades out. If it is, you're going the wrong way, and so forth. Did you have any problem with instruments or anything unusual happen?

01:31:10.340 - 01:31:20.880

I don't recall too much of it. No, I don't believe so. Okay. And then from that phase of training, you went into advanced.

01:31:21.400 - 01:31:37.140

Yes, that's right back to the AT-6s. for further training there and cross-country work, undoubtedly to prepare the girls that went into ferrying for work. Well, any of us were going anywhere.

01:31:39.680 - 01:31:58.680

And we also did cross-country in the primary trainers in that phase also. Describe your long cross-country. Oh, dear. That was to—we wound up in New Orleans, and we had weather, and considerable weather.

01:31:59.000 - 01:32:20.760

We had to divert from one field to another, and I can't remember the circumstances of that exactly. I do remember it was on our return trip. Our scheduled landing was at Paris, Texas, and I happened to be the first one that came

01:32:20.880 - 01:32:36.340

in to land. And the line boy came out to meet me and instructed me to a certain landing place. And I took off my helmet, and he looked at me and looked up in the sky at all the rest of the airplanes in the pattern.

01:32:36.900 - 01:32:54.720

He said, "You mean they're all girls?" We didn't stay there overnight, we left. Did any of the girls in your flight get lost? Oh, yes.

01:32:58.680 - 01:33:18.020

And I don't know that that happened so much in the advanced training, but I know when we took our little short cross-countries in primary training, it happened. We got misplaced. What was the most difficult thing for you in training?

01:33:24.860 - 01:33:42.480

I think coping with the night flying, probably. Well, instrument training was not easy. It took a lot of work, a lot of concentration. And on top of the instrument training that you had in the airplane, you also had link

01:33:43.060 - 01:34:04.700

trainer time, which is a simulated operation. Would you describe that link trainer? The looks of it, they tried to imitate the looks of a little airplane, but it's kind of a job gone bad.

01:34:08.180 - 01:34:22.000

We, there's an operator on the outside that presents figures to you on the instruments that are in front of you, and you have the hood over the top of you,

01:34:23.420 - 01:34:43.820

presents readings to you for your reaction to either, to correct, and just puts you through all the paces that you might run into in an airplane. Very concentrated, and you're kind of sweating when you come out of that.

01:34:44.600 - 01:34:57.180

It's quite a job. Very good training, though, of course. What was the difference in your training as a female from the male cadets who were learning to fly?

01:34:57.220 - 01:35:29.380

It's my understanding that we had every bit of the training that the cadets had, except perhaps for formation flying, but we kind of made up for that on our own. In the latter stages of training there, when we were in advanced, one of the days we could go up with other instructors, and this was a kind of a free-for-all day.

01:35:29.480 - 01:35:57.580

I mean, you even got quite close to clouds, which you shouldn't otherwise do, and you got into a little dogfighting, and you did a few aerobatics and so forth. And I remember I was quite pleased when I came down from that flight because of accolades that I got from this instructor that had never, ever worked with me before about my flying.

01:35:57.580 - 01:36:15.620

It made me feel real good. [Interviewer] While you were in training, did Ms. Cochran ever visit? Yes, she did. She was there for graduations, and I can't say how many, but yes, she was a presence

01:36:15.670 - 01:36:27.780

on the field occasionally. [Interviewer] From the time you began your training until you graduated, did your uniforms stay the same? You mean our zoot suits?

01:36:29.680 - 01:36:46.740

Our zoot suits stayed the same, our GPs stayed the same, but as we got close to graduation, we were measured for our uniforms. And— Kelly: Was that exciting?

01:36:47.080 - 01:37:12.680

Oh yes, yes. I remember when each of the classes had kind of a mother figure designated for them, and our mother figure was from the class of '44-'5. And when she got her uniform and came and showed us all dressed up in her uniform, it

01:37:12.700 - 01:37:23.340

was very impressive, yes. So when did you actually get your uniforms? Just before you graduated? I think so.

01:37:23.860 - 01:37:40.180

I think so. I have a picture, for instance, of me in my jumpsuit with the Eisenhower jacket, talking about my wings up here. I think we must have gotten them just before we graduated.

01:37:41.480 - 01:38:01.480

you were in training, did any of your peers who were in training, were they killed? McKenna: There were accidents on the field. I don't know whether it's that I blocked that from my mind or what, but I really can't tell you very much about that.

01:38:04.080 - 01:38:23.080

There were accidents. We lost a few of our trainees at the field. We also had a lot of visitors. It was amazing the number of airplanes that would suddenly develop engine trouble that

01:38:23.080 - 01:38:41.220

were manned by male pilots, male crew, that had to land at Sweetwater. They finally, I guess, put their foot down on this, and it didn't happen so often in the later days. But we had quite a variety of airplanes come in.

01:38:41.280 - 01:38:56.780

I remember one P-38, and of course, oh, it was my desire forever to fly a P-38. I remember that airplane particularly. But there were other larger airplanes that came in. And how long was your training?

01:38:58.280 - 01:39:13.280

About seven months. Before you graduated, were you given a choice of assignments? No, no, we were not given a choice. We were assigned.

01:39:14.680 - 01:39:36.920

By the time you graduated, were you aware of the additional missions that WASP had been given after they graduated? For example, other than ferrying, were you aware of the other things that they were doing? I don't remember conversations about that particularly, no.

01:39:37.960 - 01:39:50.360

I knew that all the WASPs were not all going to ferrying jobs, but specifically what they did, I don't remember discussing it. Kelly: And what did you request? McMillan: No request.

01:39:50.360 - 01:40:10.900

Kelly: Didn't request, okay. Tell me about your graduation. Well, it was a culmination of a lot of long dreams, I'll tell you. Very proud, very happy, yes.

01:40:13.620 - 01:40:26.040

The details of it are not strong in my mind, however, but I do remember the happiness of it. Did any of your family, were they able to attend? No, they didn't.

01:40:26.820 - 01:40:39.440

Dad talked about coming down, but it would have been quite a hardship for him, and so I urged him not to come. Were you given some time off then between training and reporting? Yes, yes.

01:40:39.460 - 01:40:57.700

Went home for that period of time. And do you recall how you felt in your uniform? Very classy. The family was all together at my sister's place.

01:40:57.950 - 01:41:29.480

I went to visit my place of business where I had worked before I went into the WASP. It was a nice time. What was your first assignment? My one and only assignment was at Victoria Army Air Base, that's not right, Aloe Army

01:41:30.420 - 01:41:44.360

Airfield in Victoria, Texas, not too far from Houston. Were you disappointed with that assignment, having to go back to Texas? How could I be disappointed? I got to fly the AT-6 every day.

01:41:45.260 - 01:41:54.440

That was wonderful. I towed targets for aerial gunnery practice there. Yes. I'm at the location going back to hot Texas.

01:41:55.500 - 01:42:14.400

Didn't think about it at all. How did you get from Michigan down to Texas? By golly, you know, I don't remember that trip. No, sir, I don't remember how I got home.

01:42:15.100 - 01:42:39.720

I must have flown in somehow to Romulus, though. I have a vague recollection of that. Kelly: When you got to Aloe, to whom did you report? McMillan: The only reporting that I remember doing was at the flight line to Captain White,

01:42:39.920 - 01:42:49.980

who was in charge of the tow target operation. Were there already WASPs stationed there? Yes, there were. There were a few.

01:42:50.340 - 01:43:06.260

Okay. I think there were three of us that were assigned to that field from our class, and I think that there were probably already as many as eight or nine there, but not at towing targets, is my understanding.

01:43:06.640 - 01:43:33.600

And your assignment was towing target. a particular mission, what would you do in one day? McKenna: I would take off in the AT-6 with the tow target operator in the back end. Just how that rig was put out from the airplane, I mean, I was not looking.

01:43:33.860 - 01:43:52.400

I do not know how it happened. But the tow target operator would let this rectangular target out on a long cable behind the AT-6. Then we had a certain area that we went to.

01:43:53.180 - 01:44:26.900

Ours was a straight highway that we used for reference. I would fly—and I don't remember the altitude—I would fly down that highway, and the cadets that were training would be flying toward me. And as they approached me, would peel off and come down at the target, and then come

01:44:26.640 - 01:44:45.800

up on the other side and fly out that way. And when all of the students had made their passes, I would make a turn, head back down this way down the highway. In the meantime, they out there had made their turn, would come back around and make the

01:44:45.860 - 01:44:55.200

passes again. And what were they flying? They were flying AT-6s also. And then were they using photographic equipment too?

01:44:55.200 - 01:45:15.160

Yes, they were. This was their very first exposure to aerial gunnery. After they trained for a while, and I don't know how long this was, they would go to Matagorda Island off the coast of Texas where they would use live ammunition.

01:45:16.120 - 01:45:33.140

And it's my understanding that at first there were a few WASPs at Matagorda Island, But that that was discontinued and that the men did all the tow target flying down there. Were these cadets, had they already graduated from flight training or was this advance for them?

01:45:34.090 - 01:45:49.140

Do you know? I don't know for sure. I would guess that they had graduated and gotten their wings, yes, and then were going on to training in gunnery.

01:45:49.980 - 01:45:58.260

Practicing for combat. Where did you live at Allum? We lived on the base. No, we didn't live on the base.

01:45:58.360 - 01:46:16.440

We lived right outside the base. Yucca Heights. I haven't said that word in a long time, either. And of course, we had no furniture or anything.

01:46:17.120 - 01:46:33.540

These were little apartments in cracker-box-type, continuous apartments, one story, full of cockroaches. I never had seen so many cockroaches in my life. And they all converged on the icebox.

01:46:34.440 - 01:46:49.520

If you wanted to—well, that's not true, because once we got used to them, and we saw one crawling down the wall, we'd just say, "Hi there, Ezra, how are you doing today?" and then let him go. It was useless to fight them.

01:46:50.380 - 01:47:19.320

They did do some pest control, but it didn't seem to do much good. Anyway, we didn't have any furniture, so one of our missions was to town and rented furniture and we had the usual, couch, chair, beds and so forth. And there were three of us together there, that was Annie Jean Henry in Alberta, Kinney

01:47:19.420 - 01:47:27.260

and myself. And it was quite comfortable. And where did you eat your meals? Did you cook?

01:47:28.660 - 01:47:38.640

We did some cooking. We also ate at the mess hall. And what was your social activities like? Well, that was fun.

01:47:39.400 - 01:48:07.320

We had a lot of fellows around, you know, of course, by that time, and we weren't used to this. But we were welcome, of course, at the officers club, and lots of sociability going on there. And there were dances, and we dated for those, and there was golfing and activities such

01:48:07.200 - 01:48:27.040

as that to take advantage of. Do you recall when you first heard that the wasps were going to be disbanded and how did you feel? Well, that had to happen after I was on operational duty, when the final thing came.

01:48:33.480 - 01:48:48.560

I can only remember the blow of the knowledge that we were going to be disbanded. I don't remember when I first heard it. And of course it was heartbreaking. I also thought it was such a terrible waste of skills.

01:48:49.460 - 01:49:26.120

However, the war situation had—the tempo had lessened, and there were men coming back from overseas earlier than expected, really. And of course, we were doing their jobs, and that was not really well accepted. Also, there was a group of men that, for instance, civilian instructors that had been instructing

01:49:26.120 - 01:50:00.840

us and instructing other cadets in other places in the United States that were bearing the threat of being taken into the walking army because we were taking care of so many of the flight jobs. So that's really what prompted our disbandment, with that type of exposure in the newspapers

01:50:01.740 - 01:50:20.540

and also by, what was his name, Winchell? One of the commentators, Walter Winchell, is that right? I think so. That's not right.

01:50:21.400 - 01:50:54.080

Anyway, he had quite an influence on, after all, a lot of people who listened to the radio, and the impression that they got of what our flying amounted to was not at all favorable, Congress just wouldn't okay us to be a part of the service, because we were on civilian civil service status, you see, all through this, with the thought that we would eventually

01:50:54.080 - 01:51:19.400

be taken in to the service, to the Army. I mean, after all, all of our training was Army-oriented. We learned everything the Army way, the Air Force way. But that's what brought on our disbandment.

01:51:21.420 - 01:51:39.900

There were a lot of girls that were very put out by this, and some of them even quit the was before a disbandment date. I did not. Some joined the service on their own.

01:51:41.460 - 01:52:01.500

I went home and tried to find a job with an airline, ha, ha, ha. And then even spoke to people at General Motors about trying to get a job on piloting some planes, but it just wouldn't go over at all. Not at all.

01:52:01.680 - 01:52:14.980

Why do you think they wouldn't accept women? Women just weren't doing that in those days. Just weren't. And it was a case of, "You helped us out, you know, when we needed you, but now get

01:52:15.040 - 01:52:35.540

back in your spot," type of thought. Most of the spots for women were what? Wives? Wives, nurses, stenographers, although it is interesting to read a resume of some of

01:52:35.560 - 01:52:56.660

the gals that came into the WASP, we have one gal that was a member of the Follies. And to this day, that woman can still kick her foot above her head. I don't know how she does it. And she does dances for us at our reunions that are very good.

01:52:58.140 - 01:53:17.920

But yes, the jobs that the women went back to were very limited. Many of the gals went on and got their instructor rating. I didn't happen to do that. However, I bought an airplane with this friend of mine that also went in for her interview

01:53:17.920 - 01:53:45.900

and was accepted, but didn't come into training until W-10. But we bought a powerful J-2 Piper Cub, 37.5 horsepower. And we were in Michigan, we flew that all over the state of Michigan. We were usually, we would often on weekends, you know, be a part of a group that would

01:53:45.980 - 01:54:05.420

take a trip somewhere. We were always the first off, the last to land. They were always right there by the gas pumps, ready to put gas in the airplane and get us off first, so we would get to the next spot at least in some reasonable time schedule.

01:54:06.020 - 01:54:13.680

That was fun. Kelly: And you were just doing it for fun? Medoff-Campbell: Just for fun. We bought that airplane for $200 too.

01:54:14.840 - 01:54:33.040

Kelly: In the meantime, did you get a job? Oh, yes. That was important, yes. As I say, I tried very hard to get a flight job with no reaction.

01:54:33.640 - 01:55:09.700

However, FAA, or was it CAB at that time, I guess it was CAB, offered me a job as a And actually, that would have been fun to have done, but I did turn it down. And finally wound up going back to my old job, but for a very short while. My bay mate, Alberta Kinney from Montana, got kind of itchy and decided that it would

01:55:09.540 - 01:55:40.400

be fun, it might be interesting to go to Miami, Florida and see what was going on there. So she, well as a matter of fact, came by my place in Michigan on her way down and said she would keep her eyes open for something for me down there. And let me know a few months later that she had gotten a job with Airline Training Incorporated

01:55:42.040 - 01:56:00.360

and that they spoke of an opening for me. So, I packed everything and left for Florida. Drove my little car all the way down by myself and joined this group of gals. are really great.

01:56:00.480 - 01:56:28.240

There were one, two, three, four, four of them in an apartment, nice apartment, in a garage, not in a garage, on top of a garage, overlook, second story of a garage, right in Miami proper. And they allowed me to move in with them, which was very generous of them.

01:56:29.380 - 01:56:46.080

And the first night I didn't sleep at all because we were only about a block and a half from the train switching yard. And the trains were switching all night long. And after about two nights of that, I never did hear them again, you know.

01:56:47.160 - 01:57:07.660

We lived there for a while and then moved to a home out in Coral Gables. And what was your job? I was with Airline Training Incorporated also, and mine essentially was bookkeeping, which is what I had been in previous years.

01:57:10.560 - 01:57:30.900

But it was close to flying because this company was training people for their airline training rating. That's not right. Air transport rating, which is required of a pilot applying for a job with an airline.

01:57:33.520 - 01:58:01.160

training flight engineers which were to be required on some of the bigger airplanes that were being built. And it was my husband that came down for flight engineer training, my husband-to-be, that came from Colorado to Florida to take training for flight engineer. And he got his rating there, as well as me.

01:58:01.780 - 01:58:13.260

I mean, he got me too. [Laughter] How did you meet him? He walked in the training center there and went over to get a drink of water on Memorial

01:58:13.420 - 01:58:25.120

Day. And as he bent over to get a drink of water, I said, "I think that's the one." And I don't know how that happened, but it did. And it turned out that he was the one.

01:58:26.160 - 01:58:44.700

And what are the qualities that he possessed that made you fall in love? Oh dear, what are the ways I love thee? I could go through all of those. We have a very solid commitment to one another and we mean an awful lot to one another.

01:58:46.220 - 01:58:59.780

I don't know that I could enumerate all of the great qualities he has. And how long before you were married? Oh, it didn't take long. That was Memorial Day and we were married in December, so six months.

01:59:00.180 - 01:59:18.220

Did you marry there in Florida? Yes, we did. We talked about going up to Michigan, where my family lived, to be married, but my father didn't think that was the proper thing for us to be traveling up to Michigan in those

01:59:18.320 - 01:59:40.760

days without being married. So we decided we'd be married in Florida. And we were married at a lovely church in Coconut Grove. Interestingly enough, this church is located only two or three blocks away from what I

01:59:40.760 - 02:00:11.380

I later found out to be a wasp nest that Dot Lewis and Caddy Steele and Ann Shields and I don't know how many others had migrated to after they got out of the wasp. And I didn't know they were there. They weren't all that far from where we lived in Coral Gables, but we were not aware

02:00:11.640 - 02:00:29.680

that it wasn't until later years when we got comparing notes that we found that we were in such close proximity. But yes, none of my folks were there, none of Ron's folks were there, our friends were there.

02:00:30.080 - 02:01:00.060

I remember that we had an organist and as I was standing at the back of the church prior to the ceremony, she stopped playing and came back and said, wanted to make sure that she was in the right church because there were so few people. But I had only been down there for maybe a year and there weren't that many people

02:01:00.060 - 02:01:10.300

we were attending the wedding, but our close friends were there. Did you have a formal wedding? No, not a formal, no. Then where did you go on your honeymoon?

02:01:11.120 - 02:01:23.080

Well, it took us five days to get out of Florida after we set out on our trip. I don't know what happened there. And then we were headed for Michigan. Had he finished his training?

02:01:23.200 - 02:01:31.040

Yes, yes he had. What happened to the little airplane you—? Well, that little airplane came later. No it didn't.

02:01:33.100 - 02:01:38.880

No, we sold the airplane. Yeah. Yeah. And you went to Michigan and where did you live?

02:01:39.680 - 02:02:01.580

We didn't live there. We stayed, the folks had a shower for us there. We were there for a short while and then headed west to go to his family's home in Fort Collins, Colorado.

02:02:02.820 - 02:02:24.260

It was probably the roughest winter in the world to be traveling. Lots of snow and I can remember I thought we would never get through Nebraska. We made it okay to Fort Collins where I met his folks, and we stayed with them because of the weather for quite a while.

02:02:24.420 - 02:02:54.960

Our aim was to get down to Wichita or Tulsa, job hunting. After all, we both quit our jobs, I had sold my car, and we were out just honeymooning. I can't say exactly when it was that we finally got out of Fort Collins and got first to Tulsa.

02:02:58.300 - 02:03:25.060

He did some job hunting there. Then we switched over to Wichita, I think that was the way it went, and he got a job there on the afternoon shift. He would get off the job at twelve, doing a job that he was not enjoying at all, but

02:03:25.100 - 02:03:50.960

it was bringing in some money. We had a little apartment, two rooms with a kitchen. I have to get my thoughts about me on this. This might take a minute.

02:03:51.300 - 02:04:12.480

Can I have a time off? One day we decided that Wichita wasn't for us, and so we got in his car and started out of Wichita. And it was in the afternoon apparently, and we were barely out of the environs of Wichita

02:04:13.340 - 02:04:27.720

when something happened to the car. And I immediately said, "We've lost our fan belt." And he looked at me, and sure enough we had lost the fan belt when he checked it. And we couldn't go anywhere.

02:04:28.980 - 02:04:42.900

And we had just happened to get stalled by this motel. So I thought, "This is lucky." It turned out to be a very busy motel. Very busy.

02:04:45.540 - 02:05:06.200

I'm going to change my clothes. She's going to change the tape. I'm going to have to. Of course, we were not aware that this was a house of ill repute, although it was kind

02:05:06.280 - 02:05:21.140

of strange when we went over to get the room where they said, "Well, we'll have to check on that." Then it was a little while before they finally said that they had a room for us. But, as I say, it was a busy place all night long.

02:05:21.140 - 02:05:34.120

We did get very much sleep. And it really wasn't the classiest place in town, but thank goodness it was handy and nothing happened to us. Apparently, we got the fan belt the next day and off we started for California.

02:05:35.220 - 02:05:47.180

All the opportunities seem to be, you know, in California. And we had adventures on the way. It was the first time I'd ever seen the Grand Canyon. I wouldn't get anywhere near the edge of it.

02:05:47.200 - 02:06:10.800

I hate heights when they're associated with something close to me. Airplanes are fine, but not tall buildings or cliffs. And then, oh, Hoover Dam, I'd never seen that before. And I remember we got to Pasadena to visit my aunt, who was a nurse there.

02:06:11.800 - 02:06:39.440

She scared us to death driving us around in that old car of hers. And then we went on up to L.A. and finally up to San Francisco, and that was where he found a job with Hiller Helicopter. And again, we lived in a share the kitchen, had our own bathroom, and one room big in

02:06:39.520 - 02:06:57.980

San Mateo, and I enjoyed that time there. And at some point you began your family. And that's where it became very apparent that I was pregnant. Now that had to happen before that because, yes it did.

02:06:58.020 - 02:07:17.520

I went to a doctor in Wichita and he verified that I was pregnant. I said that we were taking this long trip, did he have any advice to give me on that? He said, "Well, just take care of your nourishment. It wouldn't hurt to have a milkshake every day."

02:07:17.980 - 02:07:35.460

Oh, he never should have said that, because I did, and I gained so much weight during that pregnancy, it was terrible. But our stay in California was very nice. I loved that weather.

02:07:36.240 - 02:08:02.460

One day I saw an ad in the paper that United Airlines put out for flight engineers, and I called Ron on the phone at work, got a message to him about it, and he went in for an interview, make a long story short, he did get the job with United Airlines as a flight engineer. And they stationed him in Chicago.

02:08:05.680 - 02:08:36.560

So, we had to get from there to there, and I was quite large with child, and Ron's folks wanted to see me in Colorado. So Ronald put me on an airplane to go to Denver, and he drove the car to Denver. When I got off the airplane in Denver, Ronald's grandmother was there with his folks to meet

02:08:36.640 - 02:08:57.260

me, and his grandmother said, "Oh, that's not Betty. She's too big." I stayed there briefly with Ron, and then he put me on the airplane to go back to Michigan, and then he drove the car back to Michigan to my sister's.

02:08:57.880 - 02:09:22.440

And I stayed there, and that's where Kathy was born, in short order, because when we made that move I was about eight months pregnant. And Ron, in the meantime, situated himself in Chicago for his work, and eventually located an apartment and came and got me and Kathy.

02:09:23.360 - 02:09:47.920

We lived in Chicago for a couple of years before we bid out for Denver. And it was there that my love for the outdoors really began to show up, because Ron got to the point where he would complain that every time he got home from a trip, I was always packed and ready to go into the mountains to go camping.

02:09:48.500 - 02:10:09.280

And we did. We did an awful lot of it. It was there that Rod, our second child, was born. Ron became quite active in the flight engineer union business, and eventually was called

02:10:09.360 - 02:10:35.840

back to Washington to the headquarters to do some work on leave of absence from United the Union and eventually was elected President of the Union, which meant we were to move back there. So, we rented out the house in Denver, our first house, which we just saw when we were

02:10:35.920 - 02:10:46.700

making our trip back. Oh my, how things have changed. And you moved to Washington? moved to Washington, D.C.—actually Chevy Chase, Maryland.

02:10:53.040 - 02:11:19.400

That is where Tyler was born, in Washington. We were there for about twelve, thirteen years. During that time, we did even more of our enjoyment of the outdoors. We bought a camper.

02:11:20.120 - 02:11:54.460

I think we traveled to every wildlife refuge on the East Coast. We bought canoes and kayaks, and we did all the rivers in Maryland and Pennsylvania and Any place that we could find some water to do one, including Maine on our vacations and also vacation to Cape Cod and upper New York State, always where there was water.

02:11:55.840 - 02:12:18.420

And we became very enamored with Maine and came to the conclusion that anyone that enjoyed being in the States so much, probably ought to live there. And Ron's job was such that we could swing it if we wanted to. So we wound up eventually moving to Maine.

02:12:18.620 - 02:12:43.340

It happened in a very peculiar manner, however. I did an awful lot of synchronized swimming and swimming at our local swim club. It was part of the subdivision. I met Margaret Chase Smith's sister from Maine, who was down visiting another sister

02:12:44.240 - 02:13:04.480

in Washington, and found that she had a place, a camp as they called it, for sale up in Maine, and I was kind of interested in this. After that fall, when Ron and I were up in that area to do some canoeing, we had a look at the camp.

02:13:04.720 - 02:13:35.020

Well, that's the place that finally wound up being home on Gilman Pond. It was just a camp, and it was a place that kind of grew like Topsy into something that would accommodate all of the family and all of our doings. And of course we continued on our pastime of a great deal of canoe camping.

02:13:35.950 - 02:14:00.460

We would take six-week trips and be on the water the entire time. On one trip, a six-week trip, we traveled from one side of Maine clear to the other side to Grand Lake, Madagaman. on the paths that Thoreau took in his excursions in Maine.

02:14:01.480 - 02:14:22.600

And I kept up my interest in kayaking, which I had taken up when I was down in Washington. I learned how to kayak in a swimming pool. It worked, though. And Ronald was also a hiker, and they did—Appalachian Trail was just almost out the back door.

02:14:23.800 - 02:14:51.920

And the trail from Georgia to Maine, a very popular hiking spot, made many new lovely friends, enjoyed Maine so much. I became active in some of the local work, planning board for the town, regional planning board work and eventually appointed by the governor to the critical areas board, which

02:14:54.620 - 02:15:12.220

recognized natural areas to save within the state. How involved were you with your children's school activities? Well, I was Girl Scout leader. That was fun.

02:15:13.380 - 02:15:39.780

And I got pregnant with my last one, I was Girl Scout leader, and I got the biggest kick out of telling my girls that there was soon going to be another baby. And we took them camping, I had a co-worker on that. I didn't do an awful lot of PTA work.

02:15:40.400 - 02:16:07.160

I did work at the elementary schools in some capacities, though, helping out. I can't remember what it was. But we pretty much emphasized that school was their business to take care of, and where they always had support, it was put on their shoulders.

02:16:09.040 - 02:16:45.540

The responsibility of homework and so forth was theirs. Let me ask you, Betty, what do you think the importance is of families doing things together? Oh, I think it does an awful lot for the insides of a person to have that stability of close family relations.

02:16:46.990 - 02:17:15.540

We had a very close family. I think probably one of the most powerful things that my mother and dad did in raising their kids was not telling them what to do, not saying, "You should do this," or, "You should do that," or, "You shouldn't do this, you shouldn't do that."

02:17:15.540 - 02:17:33.860

They simply led by example. I think it was a very healthy way to bring up our family. I think our family profited greatly from it. We were our own people, you know, our own persons.

02:17:34.860 - 02:18:00.460

I know that you've been involved with WASP activities. Describe some of the things that you have been involved with. I haven't taken on responsibility of officer work or even taking on the responsibility of running a reunion, but I've gone to every gathering, every reunion that the WASP have

02:18:00.580 - 02:18:18.620

had, except two. And I don't know how come I missed those two. There's one in Reno and one in something Springs somewhere. Not only that, I attend regional gatherings that we usually have on the alternate years

02:18:19.200 - 02:18:41.900

of the every two years reunion. What I have done mostly is photography work. I'm wild with a camera. Not that I'm all that good, but the pictures are usable and they wind up being quite a

02:18:41.960 - 02:18:56.560

contribution to the newsletter. And I've written articles for the newsletter. I've also helped Schutzi out a tremendous amount on stores. It's a fun thing for me.

02:18:56.720 - 02:19:16.400

They always say I'm quite a salesman. I must have gotten it from my dad. When we're at Oshkosh, I usually man the area where they—Schutze makes a banner for each Oshkosh.

02:19:16.740 - 02:19:40.360

It's a different theme each time having to do with the WASP. But then that banner is spread out on a table, and any of the people that come in to visit our wasp tent at Oshkosh, I talk to them about signing their name on it. I'm also in charge of the raffle, which just happens to be handy, you know, beside

02:19:40.460 - 02:19:57.600

me. And after they get done signing, I usually say, "Oh, would you be interested in the raffle?" and then point out the prizes to them. And Schutze, well, they all get such a big kick out of my, the results of this, and say

02:19:59.820 - 02:20:24.800

How did they make the statement? She could sell this tent in a minute if she wanted to, or something like that. But I get a big kick out of stores and the contact that you have with people. I do that mostly at Oshkosh, although we had a very successful booth at the last Women

02:20:24.800 - 02:20:51.280

an aviation reunion in Reno. Caddy and I manned that, and we had the young people just lined up for things at that. Of course, Caddy had the idea of making up this picture that we would autograph and selling it real cheap, which was a good idea because everybody could afford a dollar, which is

02:20:51.040 - 02:21:11.520

what it was, and everybody, all these girls thought it was just marvelous to make this touch with these women that had flown in World War II. So we were a huge success there. But that's fun, and you meet so many interesting people and so many people enthused about knowing

02:21:11.580 - 02:21:23.700

about the WASP. And how about when the WASP were trying to get veteran status? Were you involved? I had lived in the Washington area, and it's a shame that I wasn't still there when that

02:21:23.780 - 02:21:46.840

went on, but we had moved to Maine, and so I did not take an active part in it. However, they'd send out bulletins, you know, what did they call them? Red something, or red alert or something, where I was responsible for getting out news to those in my area, but that's the only contribution I made to that.

02:21:47.420 - 02:22:12.800

What do you think was the importance of getting veteran status for the WASP? To me, it was merely the recognition, because we didn't get all that many benefits. Although to some, it could well be that the benefits were notable, because we do have medical benefits that are available.

02:22:15.140 - 02:22:20.700

Let me see now, we get buried? No. We get a tombstone? Or a flag?

02:22:21.620 - 02:22:45.120

I don't know, I'd have to brush up on that, but it isn't like the GIs got no GI loans or schooling or anything like that. But it was merely the fact that we got recognized. I think a better task of being, maybe not a better, but one that was of great importance

02:22:45.120 - 02:23:23.220

Ignition of the Wasp is the Oshkosh event that—and what year was that? '93, I think, when we were the honored guests at Oshkosh. And that's where our first exposure took place as far as having a tent of our own. We gave forums within the tent, talks, and you have no idea the number of people that

02:23:23.680 - 02:23:47.860

were in flying. Of course, they were, if they were at Oshkosh, in the flying profession that would come in and say they were in World War II and they want to thank us for what we contributed. And certainly within the flying community of the day, that was where we got more exposure

02:23:48.220 - 02:24:10.500

than any place that we had ever ventured before, except possibly our recognition as veterans. Kelly: You had your family and they finished school in Maine. And then as they left home, how did you decide to also have a home in Arizona? A heart attack.

02:24:10.940 - 02:24:27.340

That was easy. I had a heart attack in '85. In the middle of the night, midnight, on the coldest day of the year, December 20th, miles away from anything, because we have a very remote spot.

02:24:30.280 - 02:24:50.800

But yes, the doctor said that he did not want me to be breathing all that cold air during the wintertime and that I should go south for the winter. I had a sister here in Arizona that had moved here ten to fifteen years previously, and I had been out to visit her.

02:24:51.800 - 02:25:07.060

And so I came out to see her, and Ronald said before I left, "You might look around and see if there's anything you're interested in out there that we could use for winters." And that's how we wound up here. Kelly: Okay.

02:25:07.960 - 02:25:23.080

And now, Betty, how do you spend your time in the summertime in Maine and the wintertime here? McMillan: Sometimes it seems like all I do is pack and unpack. I mean going or coming.

02:25:24.440 - 02:26:04.460

I don't miss any of the flying activities that I can, and there are many that go on. Ron and I, after we bought the airplane upon his retirement in 1983, I renewed my license And we renewed our seaplane ratings and we were flying around a lot. Kelly: What kind of airplane did you buy?

02:26:04.460 - 02:26:14.120

McMillan: The first one was a P-18, which is a Piper Super Cub. Kelly: Is Ronald also a pilot? McMillan: Oh, yes. Oh, yes.

02:26:14.480 - 02:26:17.480

Yeah. He loves flying. Loves it. Loves it.

02:26:22.840 - 02:26:42.120

After the seaplane? Well, then of course along came the heart attack, and I made a decision after the heart attack not to redo my medical. After all, I had every opportunity in the world to fly with my husband, and I just felt

02:26:43.440 - 02:27:05.300

a good time to make the cut. Ron had the cub torn down for overhaul. We got lonesome for flying during this period in time, so we bought another airplane. That was a Stinson 108-2.

02:27:05.850 - 02:27:18.380

I called that my pretty lady. Oh, I think it's the prettiest airplane in the sky. And we flew that a lot. We flew to Sun 'n Fun.

02:27:19.900 - 02:27:37.840

Our greatest joy is camping under the wing. There is nothing so much fun as that. And a lot of people can't understand this at all. I remember some of the first times we'd go to Oshkosh, and that was with the Cub.

02:27:39.000 - 02:27:59.300

Oshkosh in those days is not like it is these days, rather unrefined, I guess you would call it. But we would park in the back 40, as it was called. And of course in the morning when I got up, I'd put on my housecoat and you'd walk

02:27:59.360 - 02:28:25.960

over to the area where there were the showers and all, and then come back in the tent, get dress for the day. And I remember coming back from the shower room one day and meeting up with one of our friends that we would see often there. And he looked at me and he said, "Do you know you're just grinning from ear to ear?" I just enjoyed it all so much.

02:28:26.840 - 02:28:45.520

And a lot, I think probably unusual, there's a lot of wives that don't take to it quite so kindly or energetically as I. However, then the arthritis took over and sleeping in a tent on the ground,

02:28:47.260 - 02:29:02.360

whether it be canoe camping or airplane camping or whatever, just wasn't my cup of tea. So I had to cut it out and I miss it so, I miss it so. I still get to the events, but I don't get to camp under the wing.

02:29:02.680 - 02:29:14.220

But Ron does. He still does, and our kids join him, for instance, at Oshkosh or at Sun and Fun. And so they're with him.

02:29:14.780 - 02:29:30.540

But of course, I'm there too, attending with the WASP. - So what makes you happy now? - Oh, I am pretty easy to make happy. Waking up in the morning and having another day

02:29:30.540 - 02:29:48.160

that God has given me is always a great treat. I enjoy my time out here in Arizona a lot. I'm into the computer club, the genealogy club. I'm into aquaerobics.

02:29:48.160 - 02:29:57.660

I get to swim. I get to have time to do my reading. I can sit out on my patio and enjoy watching the coyotes walk by.

02:29:58.460 - 02:30:16.960

And of course, the activity with the WASP, I think is the highlight social event to me. There's great camaraderie in the group that I've just not found anywhere else.

02:30:17.040 - 02:30:34.560

I don't think that there's anything that can match it. Whether it's a case of us all having such a common background and a common hobby, or maybe what is built into all of us

02:30:34.680 - 02:30:48.120

to have been able to go through all of that, I don't know, but it promotes a tremendous closeness. And every reunion that you go to, you meet somebody that you haven't met

02:30:48.180 - 02:30:57.500

at a reunion before, you know, and there you got another friend. It's a nice thing. Kelly: Tell me about your children now.

02:30:57.500 - 02:31:25.080

McMillan: Oh, they're wonderful. Kathy is the oldest, and she's a registered nurse. She has worked with doctors in clinics and so forth. And finally got pretty fed up with the procedure of people coming in that don't feel well,

02:31:25.300 - 02:31:44.960

get a shot, get a pill, go out, leave, come back later, I'll give you another shot type of thing. And it just, I think she got a little disillusioned with it. And an opportunity came by for schooling in massage therapy, and she took to it very,

02:31:45.180 - 02:32:08.900

very much, very interested in it. She is a very person person, and the combination of her makeup and her ability at massage therapy has been very successful. However, she has gotten fibromyalgia, which is a deterrent in this too.

02:32:09.760 - 02:32:27.800

She has given us three beautiful grandsons. I don't have a granddaughter yet though. And they're, of course, wonderful. We did lose our grandson on the U.S. coal tragedy.

02:32:28.960 - 02:32:43.020

That's Patrick, bless his heart. And he was in the Navy. He always loved sailing. When he'd come up to the pond, we'd have to get the sail out and get it put up on the

02:32:43.100 - 02:32:54.260

canoe. And he was in that sailboat a good share of his time. He loved the water. He was doing something that he really loved.

02:32:57.680 - 02:33:12.020

Because terrorists can't take that away from him, no. And your other two children? Then the next one is Rod, who is a civil engineer. He's located in Silver Spring, Maryland.

02:33:12.320 - 02:33:31.140

Kathy, by the way, is in Maryland, in a small town of Keatysville, close by the Antietam Cemetery where Patrick was very honored to be. It's an honor that he's buried there. Rod is in Silver Springs.

02:33:31.830 - 02:34:04.800

He worked extensively with a structural engineering company, in fact was in charge of his company's job on the rebuilding that's taking place in Boston now. The big something, they call it. It's a tremendous development involving the Interstate 95 and the bridges and highways

02:34:05.000 - 02:34:32.880

around the airport. He has made a change in his job and he's located with Montgomery County now in Maryland and is the chief structural engineer for them now and enjoys his work very much. The youngest came by ten years later and grew up on the pond with us.

02:34:32.880 - 02:35:02.020

He was just in the second grade when we moved to Maine. He is a computer man, software engineer, and he has worked for various companies in New Hampshire, made a move out to Santa Cruz, and worked for a big company out there, which was very enjoyable, but missed being back east and came back home to the home that he

02:35:02.020 - 02:35:16.920

had bought and couldn't sell. But thank goodness. And so he's located again back in Vermont. And he works for a company called Vicinity Corporation.

02:35:17.280 - 02:35:40.520

And he is, I can't give you his exact title. I wrote it down in that book, but I can't remember it. Let me ask you, Betty, of all the things that you have done, discounting the children now, what is the one thing that you're most proud of?

02:35:49.440 - 02:36:10.380

You're asking for an incident, huh? Incident that makes me proud, not necessarily an instrument. What have you done in your life that you are really proud of, besides having those children, which I know would be number one?

02:36:13.020 - 02:36:38.380

I have to say that I am very proud that I am my own person. I guess that's what I would say. I worked at it a while, you know, through elementary school and through intermediate school and with the encouragement of my family I think for some that's quite an achievement.

02:36:38.640 - 02:37:01.480

I'm proud of that. I am of course proud that I have the knowledge that if I want to do something I can get busy and learn how to do it and do it. I don't enumerate it.

02:37:01.840 - 02:37:21.220

I guess I can't say exactly what it is, but I'm happy with my life. Good. Could you give me your personal opinion of Jacqueline Cochran and about the WASP that she organized, the importance of that organization?

02:37:21.740 - 02:37:38.940

Oh, I think she was a terrific gal. She did have great ego, but I think this was necessary for her to get through her life. And of course, as she became an adult,

02:37:39.270 - 02:38:02.900

to get into what she did in such an enthusiastic way, believe in it so wholeheartedly and accomplish what she did. She wound up with more records than any other person in aviation, male or female, in her flying.

02:38:03.680 - 02:38:10.280

I'm sorry. Now, where was I? Cochran. Cochran, okay.

02:38:15.700 - 02:38:48.680

I remember the first time that I was around her personally was the reunion that we had at her home. I can't remember what that year was. She was so warm and hospitable, and even took Pinky and I over to her place away from where

02:38:48.940 - 02:39:07.160

the reunion was being held to show us her home. She was so proud of her medals. The fireplace mantle was just lined with them. That's the only really personal contact that I ever had with her, but of course her

02:39:07.340 - 02:39:31.740

work and what she accomplished, I have great admiration for her stick-to-itivity as far as trying to convince General Arnold of the value of ready-made pilots or ones that could be ready made quickly to help out in the war effort. It took a lot to accomplish.

02:39:34.620 - 02:40:02.340

I have great admiration for her. And what do you feel the legacy of the WASP will be? Well you know, I think we're among the most influential, if people find out enough about in the fight that women have for recognition as real human beings.

02:40:05.460 - 02:40:42.540

There are others in history that have certainly made contributions in that way, but you'd have to admit that going out and flying Air Force airplanes right up to the B-29 was something that had not been fathomable prior to our time. I'm sure that this impression will be there for anyone that is interested in investigating it.

02:40:43.420 - 02:41:00.980

During your lifetime, like everyone, you've had good times and bad, a lot of happy times, but then there must have been some sad times. What has gotten you through the sad times? Prayer.

02:41:05.640 - 02:41:18.920

And time. facing things squarely. I guess that's it. - Good.

02:41:19.760 - 02:41:31.940

If you could say something to your grandchildren's children, or children in future generations that you will never know, that might encourage them to follow their dreams,

02:41:32.900 - 02:41:44.680

what message would you like to give to them? Well, you just about said it. Follow your dreams and do it. You're capable of doing it.

02:41:45.070 - 02:42:06.340

If you want it hard enough, you can do it. Let me ask you this, in view of what you've been through and what America is going through with the terrorists, what is your feeling about how this country is

02:42:06.340 - 02:42:34.160

handling that particular problem. This country is really feeling its way through how to cope with such unimaginable events as have taken place. And in that sphere, I think that the country is doing the best job it can.

02:42:35.660 - 02:42:52.040

This is like our Colin Powell says, "We are not accustomed to this. This is all new. We've got to feel our way." I'm not quoting him, but this is his idea.

02:42:54.640 - 02:43:13.640

But I think that the country is doing its best. Is there anything that I have left out that you want to tell us about, any stories that you would like to have included or anything that I have omitted that you feel is important? No, I don't think you have omitted anything.

02:43:14.240 - 02:43:43.320

I will tell one story that is a favorite of mine. It is about one of these two gals that I told you about that were in my bay. One of them was out flying with an instructor one day in AT-6s. I don't have to tell anybody how full of snakes Texas is, and I don't have to tell

02:43:43.420 - 02:44:02.740

you that most of we women just don't care for that. Well, Nancy didn't care for snakes. She was out, you might wonder why she should be worrying about this up in an airplane. Well, the airplane caught fire and they tried everything to get the fire out.

02:44:02.940 - 02:44:21.000

What happened, I have no idea. They dove it, they did this and that and it wouldn't go out. So finally the instructor said, "You're going to have to jump." And there was silence for a moment, and then the words, "Do I really have to jump?"

02:44:21.000 - 02:44:37.540

And she did. She got out on the wing, and whether he tipped her off or whether she went herself, I don't know, but the parachute worked fine. And this was out over practice area, which is quite remote.

02:44:38.560 - 02:44:54.620

She landed safely, got this parachute and spread it all around her just as wide as she could and sat in the middle of it like this watching for snakes until somebody came along and picked her up. I think that's so funny.

02:44:56.140 - 02:45:13.480

I'm not real good at snake stories. The idea of at Sweetwater, them having rattlesnake hunts and so forth, I never happened to bump been to that I can remember any snakes when I was down there. I don't know what I would have done if I had.

02:45:14.400 - 02:45:23.520

Yes. You've been an absolute joy. This has been a pleasure for us and we thank you. You have made it a joy.

02:45:23.700 - 02:45:33.020

Now we need to ask you, are you glad you decided to do it? Can't you tell? I'm so glad. Bless you for doing this.

02:45:33.720 - 02:45:48.540

It wasn't easy. It really wasn't easy. I don't know why I have this built into me. That's one assurance that I did not grow up with, is to talk in front of anybody. Oh, but you're so, you seemingly are completely at ease.

02:45:48.600 - 02:45:51.940

Thank you. I'm glad it came out that way. Yeah.