00:00:01.140 - 00:00:19.300

We tried to bring the current women military pilots into our organization to keep it going, just like the 99s have everything under the name of Amelia Earhart and it keeps Amelia Earhart's name going and all of those original people. And that was what we had in mind.

00:00:19.780 - 00:00:35.420

Well, we were told by Barry Goldwater that we could not use the name WASP, the Women Air Force Service Pilots. There was some technical reason why we couldn't. Well, it just so happened he was wrong, except we didn't know that, and if Barry Goldwater

00:00:35.560 - 00:00:53.400

tells you that, you believe it, right? So we said, well, and there's a plus effect that the majority of the women did not want to have outsiders in the organization. As a matter of fact, they threw out all the instructors and the ground people, everybody

00:00:53.400 - 00:01:17.840

else that were members of our organization were helping us. Ziggy Hunter, for one, did a tremendous job. And so they wanted to kick them all out, which is what they eventually did, and they made a lot of enemies. And so we said, "Well, okay, we'll start another organization, we'll call it the Women Military Aviators," which is a current organization

00:01:17.840 - 00:01:52.540

except that we called it the Women Military Pilots. They changed it to aviators. Well, somehow or other, this group in Washington, D.C. got Lillian Roberts to run for President, and she was a hatchet lady. And that was the - after she ran for office, finished her duty, She made our lives at board meetings miserable. Betty Nicholas, Marty Weill, myself, and we

00:01:52.540 - 00:02:24.800

had done all of this groundwork. She came in because it was signed when we were still a board in 1977. It was not enacted until 1979 because it had to be studied by, I have the group in Washington, D.C. So she came in and then she took credit for everything. And we, including Bruce Harner, we were all supposed to be, when it was finally enacted,

00:02:25.600 - 00:02:55.740

as a group invited to Washington, D.C. for this festivity. She called me on the phone and she said, "Antonio Shays," who was in charge of this, "would be embarrassed if you came. She uninvited Bruce Arnold, Betty Nicholas, myself. We were all uninvited to this thing after having worked for three years to get it accomplished.

00:02:55.900 - 00:03:07.260

>> I guarantee you, Bea, when we build a museum, weíll give you a gold shovel. You can come and do some work. I guarantee you. Oh, that's terrible. I never knew her.

00:03:07.260 - 00:03:14.180

And then after she was the president, last convention she ever went to. Really? Yeah. She has since died.

00:03:14.260 - 00:03:24.300

Has she died? Yeah. It's ironic. Her latest husband, they had a function down in Boca, and I happened to be there for the

00:03:24.300 - 00:03:55.980

[convention] and he was telling me how wonderful she was and how beautiful and terrible she to your list and I thought to my, oh, and so he asked me to see to it that the information got into the newsletter about her death. And I thought, God, you know, he knew doggone well who I was and what the background was. Strange world, isn't it? So of course I did

00:03:56.580 - 00:04:04.920

Let the newsletter know that she had died. Wow. So I get to blow my nose. Well, you can always blow your stuff.

00:04:04.920 - 00:04:12.980

They chime out. OK, I'm rolling now. OK, I'm Deanie Parrish with Wings Across America. Today we're interviewing Bea Heydew.

00:04:13.580 - 00:04:27.240

Bea was a WASP, class 44-7. We are in her home at Riviera Beach, Florida. Today is the first day of May, 2003. The videographer is Nancy Parrish.

00:04:28.160 - 00:04:38.420

Okay, Bea, we'll start off. If you'll give us your full name and when and where you were born. - My full name is Bernice Sarah Falk Haydew.

00:04:39.080 - 00:05:01.940

I was born in Bradley Beach, New Jersey on December 15th, 1920. - When you were born, Bea, did you have siblings already? I had a thirteen-month-older-than-I brother whose name is Lloyd, and we were extremely

00:05:02.100 - 00:05:17.020

close. We grew up together and played together. And then later on, did you have another sibling? When I was twelve years old, my sister was born, and her name is Jacqueline Joan Falk

00:05:17.760 - 00:05:27.420

Menard. Tell me about your mom. What was your mom like? My mother was, I would say, advanced for her age.

00:05:31.960 - 00:06:08.480

She started businesses, hem stitching and findings and yarn and all that sort of a business. Actually she started branches of the business that her mother, my grandmother, had started. So, I would say that the females in our side of the family were very independent people who liked to accomplish things in life.

00:06:09.220 - 00:06:32.560

But she managed to have not only a good business background, but she was an excellent mother. Did she have a shop where she sold these things? The original store was 95 Holsey Street, Newark, New Jersey, called Blum's. Her maiden name was Della Blum.

00:06:34.780 - 00:06:56.500

She opened a store similar to that in East Orange, New Jersey, and another one in Montclair, New Jersey. The Montclair store was called The Vanity Box. She sold not only findings but lingerie, costume jewelry, pocketbooks, things of that sort.

00:06:56.940 - 00:07:25.360

And of course she had, she only went to the eighth grade, but she had tremendous ability. And in those days they would teach them things, hand things that you did, crocheting and needle point. I can remember making lampshades and pocketbooks with beads, with these steel beads.

00:07:26.310 - 00:07:42.800

As a matter of fact, I still have some steel beads from my mother. I also have a lot of her old costume jewelry too. But she was a wonderful woman. How about your father?

00:07:43.080 - 00:08:03.800

My father was actually two years younger than she. In those days, you did not marry someone younger. She used to lie about her age until he died, unfortunately. He died when he was only sixty years old.

00:08:06.000 - 00:08:23.920

They met down at the seashore, the New Jersey shore. He lived in Asbury Park and she used to go down there on vacations. I guess that's where they met. And his mother and father were in a similar business and I guess this is how the two of

00:08:23.920 - 00:08:32.780

them met. And they fell in love and they got married. As a matter of fact, I have a very pretty picture of their wedding, which I will show you later.

00:08:33.880 - 00:08:50.340

And so they were in business together for a while, and then he came to Florida to sell real estate. He liked Florida. As a matter of fact, he lived on the ocean, so he liked the ocean.

00:08:50.540 - 00:09:07.080

And he used to be one of the people who, I've forgotten the name that they call them, where they go swimming in the winter. And we have pictures of him coming out of the Atlantic Ocean in Asbury Park, New Jersey, carrying a piece of ice.

00:09:08.500 - 00:09:27.040

Of course, she never joined the club, she never did that, but he loved that. And I can remember growing up, we used to go down the shore and we would have a bushel peach bushel basket. We would lower it down the jetty and he would be swimming.

00:09:28.160 - 00:09:53.440

And he would take the mussels off of the jetty and put them in the basket and we would hoist them up and then we would take them home and my mother would cook them and pickle them and do everything with them. So at any rate, I'm digressing, he came to Florida and then the Depression hit and

00:09:53.440 - 00:10:11.940

the real estate business in Florida dried up. So he came back to New Jersey and he purchased a, they called it the Century Taxi Company. It was a company of individual owners of taxicabs.

00:10:12.810 - 00:10:32.540

And so he had, at one time he owned four taxicabs and eventually it reduced to one because somehow or other, The ones that he was not operating were not making any money, so it behooved him to just reduce to the one taxi.

00:10:32.700 - 00:10:45.340

And that is the business that he remained in until he died. Kelly: When you were born, where did you live? Did you live in the city? Did you live on the outskirts or in the country?

00:10:45.340 - 00:10:58.960

Rockwell: Well, my brother was born in Ocean Grove, New Jersey, which is right next to Asbury Park. I was born in Bradley Beach, which was right next to Asbury Park. And I would call it a suburb.

00:10:59.460 - 00:11:17.240

It's a community where you have, you know, similar to Florida where people all come down in the winter. Well, in the Jersey Shore, people all come down in the summer. So it's a seasonal kind of a place, but it was definitely suburban living.

00:11:18.500 - 00:11:39.980

And when we moved to, we moved from there to Montclair, New Jersey. And that again was a suburb of the Newark area. Tell me about your grandparents. My grandfather on my mother's side came to this country when he was thirteen years old,

00:11:40.610 - 00:12:02.360

all by himself. And my grandmother came to this country when she was sixteen years old. And I don't know too much about my great-grandparents, however my brother does. He has done a genealogical study, and I have a book, yay, sick, of all of these relatives

00:12:02.540 - 00:12:22.680

that he has managed to trace. But they both came from Germany. It's a good thing they came from Germany as early as they did. And they met, I'm not exactly sure how they met, but they did meet and they married and

00:12:22.920 - 00:12:48.100

he was in the business which my grandmother had started. And my grandparents on my father's side also had come from Germany. I do not know exactly when, but that was Jenny and Henry. They were originally from Manhattan.

00:12:48.280 - 00:13:05.800

My father was born in Manhattan. My mother was born in Hoboken, New Jersey. They lived down the seashore, as I said, in Asbury Park and had this business. As you were growing up, did you visit them a lot?

00:13:07.620 - 00:13:28.860

When we were growing up, we visited my grandmother on my mother's side quite a bit. My grandmother on my father's side lived with us in Montclair, New Jersey, so I did know them quite well. What did you learn from your grandparents?

00:13:32.390 - 00:14:01.520

I guess I learned good disposition from my mother's mother, and from my father's mother, I learned a little bit about—she loved to cook, so I learned a little bit about cooking. Not that I ever took it up as a profession, but she was also a very, very neat, very clean person.

00:14:05.080 - 00:14:35.860

She was just very pleasant to be around, as was my other grandmother. As a matter of fact, we lived with, when my father was in real estate business in Florida, We lived with my mother's mother and father. She lived in West Orange, and directly across the street from her house was grammar school.

00:14:37.140 - 00:14:51.000

My brother was now going into kindergarten. I was so used to doing things with my brother, the fact that he was going off to school, and I wasn't. I was very sad about that.

00:14:51.620 - 00:15:09.060

So somehow or other, they wangled me into the kindergarten class with my brother. So I went to kindergarten twice, because I was not old enough to go to kindergarten the first time. But we just used to walk right across the street to kindergarten.

00:15:10.320 - 00:15:30.300

And then, in that same school, did you start first grade? No, because by then my father had come back and we moved to Montclair, New Jersey where my other grandmother had purchased a house, 102 Midland Avenue, Montclair, New Jersey. And so we moved in with her.

00:15:30.310 - 00:15:58.860

It was a very large house and she purchased it because she was going to rent out rooms. In those days we didn't have motels or hotels and people were traveling around the country, they would go to a rooming house. And this is what we had. So we had lots of rooms and people would come and rent rooms and leave and so on. As a matter of fact,

00:16:00.160 - 00:16:26.960

when my mother's business, because of the depression in Montclair, when she had to close shop. She came back and she started an employment agency from the house. So, she used to find people who needed jobs and would send them off and people who wanted housekeepers and so forth would get in touch with her and also rented

00:16:27.360 - 00:16:54.720

rooms. And you started school then in Montclair? Yes. Okay. What was the grammar school like? Was it a huge building? Ruth: I would say no, not huge. We had maybe fifteen or so in a class, I would say between fifteen and twenty in a class.

00:16:54.720 - 00:17:13.740

Nancy: How did you get to school? >> Walked. We did not have school buses in those days, you walked. >> About how far was it? >> Well, I'm going to guess it was probably pretty close to a mile.

00:17:15.280 - 00:17:34.740

And I can remember I used to always take the shortcut. The shortcuts would go through the stables where, because they still had horses and stuff. I was almost always late for school, almost all the time.

00:17:35.950 - 00:17:47.780

Kelly: Even in the wintertime with snow? Ruthie: Oh, sure. I mean, you did not think about those things. Mom always gave us oatmeal, every morning oatmeal.

00:17:48.200 - 00:18:07.360

"Oh, Mom, the oatmeal is too hot." And then for lunch, what would you do? Well, we used to go home for lunch. And my mother had the store on Bloomfield Avenue, which was closer to the school than

00:18:07.420 - 00:18:18.900

where we lived. So we used to come home for lunch. We used to, as a matter of fact, we used to eat our large meal at noon rather than at night.

00:18:19.560 - 00:18:40.020

I suppose they gave us enough time that I had time to get to the store, eat lunch, and back to school again. Kelly: Do you recall the first car your dad had? Lowry: Well, I know he had a car because I think I was about three years old when we

00:18:39.840 - 00:19:10.260

moved from Bradley Beach to Montclair because I remember the ride up. My brother and I were sitting in the back seat and it was late at night. And it's strange, I remember the ride up, that's all I remember about the ride. I probably fell asleep again, but I do not know what kind of car it was, and I am not

00:19:10.360 - 00:19:32.380

very good at car recognition. When you were in elementary school, do you recall any teacher that might have made an impression on you? I remember in high school Mr. Ward was our music teacher and also my bookkeeping teacher

00:19:34.620 - 00:19:57.620

because he looked like James Cagney. So I remember him. And it's really funny, when we had our fiftieth high school reunion, he was there. And he had wanted, he had called my mother in and said, "She's very good in bookkeeping

00:19:57.840 - 00:20:18.180

and you should really send her to college to become an accountant because she's very good." But unfortunately, we didn't have the money to send Bernice to college. So when I saw him at the fiftieth anniversary, I reminded him of this episode.

00:20:19.320 - 00:20:41.520

And he said, "Oh, that's too bad, too bad." I said, "No, that's not too bad. I went on to be successful, and now I hire the accountants." >> When you were growing up, did you have playmates that lived close?

00:20:41.920 - 00:20:53.060

>> Oh yes, all the neighborhood children played together. And we used to kick the can. And then we always had Nikolai Stanojevich, who lived down the street.

00:20:53.600 - 00:21:07.300

And he was a couple of years older than we were, and he was very strong. And we had a wagon and he used to put us in the wagon and drag us around because he was big and strong.

00:21:07.480 - 00:21:20.840

He was older. >> When you were in school, were your parents involved in your school activities, PTA or any? >> They would go to, my mother would go to PTA meetings.

00:21:21.060 - 00:21:36.960

But they didn't have a lot of that back then. At least they didn't in our school, or if they did, you know, my mother was always kind of very active doing other things too. But she always used to say to us, now,

00:21:37.580 - 00:21:54.620

my job is whatever it was she was doing at the time. And your job is school. So you just have to be good at what you're doing. And so she never sat with us and did homework with us or anything else.

00:21:54.640 - 00:22:03.760

We were on our own. >> What kind of student were you? >> I would say I was a good student. I mean, I was conscientious.

00:22:03.820 - 00:22:16.380

If I had a report that had to be in, boy, I was really worried until I got it completed. >> When you finished elementary school, was that through sixth grade, eighth grade?

00:22:16.440 - 00:22:26.300

>> Yeah, through sixth grade. >> Okay. >> And then we went to George Ennis Junior High School. >> From the kindergarten through the sixth,

00:22:26.330 - 00:22:36.040

that was Spalding School in Montclair. And then George Ennis Junior High School and then Montclair High School. And the junior high school went seventh, eighth,

00:22:36.100 - 00:22:56.800

and ninth grade, and 10th, 11th, 12th was high school. >> When you were in junior high, what outside activities did you participate? I liked singing and I liked acting, so I participated in both of those.

00:22:57.600 - 00:23:12.240

I was not very good in athletic sports. I always tell Joe I was always the last one chosen on the team because I was not very good. Did that make you feel bad?

00:23:14.240 - 00:23:35.280

Not particularly. I mean, naturally you do not want to be the last one chosen. But I guess our family never pushed the physical activities. They would push more of the academics.

00:23:36.900 - 00:23:55.360

Kelly: When you were in high school, junior high school, high school, what were your ambitions? I wanted to be a singer. Did you take formal singing lessons? No, but they gave you exercises to do, singing exercises.

00:23:56.100 - 00:24:18.400

So I can remember I used to go up to the attic where nobody could hear me, and I would do these exercises. I would try to do them every day. I was in operettas in school and school plays. I had a good voice. I don't anymore, but I did then.

00:24:18.970 - 00:24:40.340

Did you have a school choir? Oh yes, I was in the Glee Club. What play stands out in your mind? I forget the name of it, but I had one of the leads and Mr. Ward, the singing teacher,

00:24:41.780 - 00:25:05.480

asked me to come to his house. This was like maybe a month before, and he asked me to do some singing. And then he said, "Have you been understudying?" he hadn't asked me to, "Have you been understudying the part, the second lead?"

00:25:06.100 - 00:25:26.920

And I said, "No." He said, "Oh," he said, "I'm really not happy with the one that I have chosen, and I would like to have had you, but you don't have enough time to memorize it." I said, "Oh, yes I do, yes I do, I'll do it, I'll do it." "No," he said, "there really isn't enough time."

00:25:26.980 - 00:25:41.600

In other words, had I memorized, I probably had memorized it in my mind, but at that time I, you know, if I was smart, I would have said, "Oh, sure I have." But, you know, when you're young like that, you're not that smart.

00:25:42.050 - 00:25:50.280

>> Right. When you were in high school, did your choir have competition with other schools? >> No.

00:25:50.570 - 00:26:03.860

>> No. What was your social life like when you were in high school? Well, let me see. We really didn't have much of a social life.

00:26:05.620 - 00:26:21.140

Wernher Stiefel, who lived on our block, he kind of liked me, and I kind of liked him. And so he used to stand outside the house in the morning so that he could walk me to school.

00:26:22.460 - 00:26:44.060

And so we were kind of like in love. But there weren't school dances. I ran into Werner, by the way, again at that 50th reunion. And he looked at me and he said, "You flew an airplane?"

00:26:44.060 - 00:26:57.460

He couldn't believe it. And it turns out he is the head of a very, very large chemical company, national chemical company. As a matter of fact, he lives in Carl Gables, Florida.

00:26:58.780 - 00:27:10.480

Our paths did cross, but he went on to Yale and he used to invite me up to the dances at Yale. But we were in the same grade, so we had graduated together. But he was great.

00:27:10.940 - 00:27:32.840

As a matter of fact, his parents had a place in New York State, and he and my brother were also good friends. So in the summertime, two or three summers, the parents would invite Lloyd and I to come up and spend a couple of weeks with them, which we did.

00:27:32.880 - 00:27:49.180

We used to pick berries and do all kinds of things in the mountains. It was beautiful. As you were growing up, how did your family celebrate holidays? What holidays did they celebrate and how did you do that?

00:27:49.850 - 00:28:17.020

Well, we were Jewish and so usually the high holy days we celebrated by going to the temple. But my parents were not, as you know, there are orthodox and conservative and reformed factions of the Jewish religion and we were reformed, which do not follow the dietary laws that the Orthodox Jewish people do.

00:28:18.040 - 00:28:45.020

And it's much more liberal, I guess is the word, so that they were religious and followed the high holy days and would go to temple for various things and I was confirmed at Temple of Benaj Esheron and Neuer, but they were not fanatical about it. It was just, it was there, you accepted it, and that was it.

00:28:46.200 - 00:29:08.820

Do you recall any, say, Fourth of July celebrations in your town that you might have attended or did your town celebrate? Yeah, they would have parades. We would always go to the parades and they didn't have much meaning in your younger

00:29:09.000 - 00:29:26.100

years as they do today. And as a matter of fact, I don't even know how popular parades are today, but at any rate whenever they had a parade we would go. When you were growing up, who were your role models?

00:29:28.660 - 00:30:06.760

I do not know that I had any. I grew up and I listened to my parents, whatever they told me to do, I did. I look back, as a matter of fact, I look back at my own children and I said, "I don't know if I'm a Pollyanna, but I cannot really recall any rough times, even our children growing up."

00:30:06.900 - 00:30:29.300

I recall that one of our children was smoking marijuana and we found out about it. This was in college, and we said, "You stop, let us know college." And he stopped. But it was a little rough period, not bad.

00:30:30.820 - 00:30:56.640

And the other two, I do not recall, other than little mischievous things that children will do, I cannot recall them doing anything really, really bad. And I don't recall my brother and I, we were always very concerned about our family. Always in the back of our minds were the depression and the money and where is the money coming

00:30:56.760 - 00:31:12.160

from. We wouldn't ask for things because we knew that the money wasn't there. And we were always worried for our parents. And I can remember times when we had spaghetti two or three times a week because this was

00:31:12.160 - 00:31:32.760

a very inexpensive meal, but we would do everything that we could to help them because we realized that things were not as happy as they could be. >> When you were growing up, did you ever go on family vacations?

00:31:33.200 - 00:31:47.420

>> Oh, yes, all the time. We would go on "day trips." So we would go to High Point Park or down the shore or someplace of interest and we would go swimming.

00:31:49.340 - 00:32:02.720

They would take us as much as they could. We always packed a big picnic lunch. Kelly: In the summertime, would you take summer vacations or would your mom just work all through the summer?

00:32:03.440 - 00:32:24.420

Well, as I said, this one neighbor would invite us, or again, it was like day trips. And once in a while we would go down the shore and maybe rent a place for a week and stay there. So we did go on vacations together, but we didn't go on vacations the way they do today,

00:32:24.600 - 00:32:39.460

you know, fly off someplace and all that. There wasn't the opportunity to fly in those days. Kelly: When you were in high school, your senior year, did you have a senior prom? Betty: No.

00:32:40.340 - 00:33:02.120

We had a graduation in the amphitheater, and that was it. Kelly: When you were a senior, before you graduated, what were your plans for after graduation, what you would do? Well, I knew that I was not going to be able to go to college because the money just wasn't

00:33:02.180 - 00:33:20.640

there. My brother, who is extremely bright, I always said he inherited all the brains in the family. And so he got a scholarship, but the family contribution had to be his transportation and his room and his board and so forth.

00:33:20.740 - 00:33:40.340

So there was enough money for that. And I knew that I was not going to be going to college, so I took general courses as well as business courses. And I learned typing and shorthand and bookkeeping, and so I wanted to get some kind of an office

00:33:40.440 - 00:34:02.560

job once I graduated. But I also took as many other courses as I could to round out my education in the event that I might be able to get credit if I someday did go back to college or did go to college. And your graduation, did your parents come? Did your grandparents come?

00:34:02.560 - 00:34:26.320

Oh yes, yes. The whole family came and as a matter of fact they had a surprise party for me at the house afterwards. Did you have caps and gowns? We wore like white dresses. We did not have the caps and gowns. How large was your graduating class?

00:34:27.500 - 00:34:55.100

Good question. I honestly don't recall. In looking at education today, what do you feel was the difference between the education you got and what the kids are getting today? Well, I think that we got the basics. And I think today with computers and facility,

00:34:57.060 - 00:35:14.080

They're not learning how to add and subtract and do things if the electricity fails and you can't use some of this equipment. They're completely stymied. It's like you go to the bank and you make a deposit and you say, "Oops, sorry, the

00:35:14.280 - 00:35:26.760

computer is down." Well, everything stops because the computer is down. And so they're not getting the basic things to be able to take care of themselves if the The computer is down.

00:35:28.920 - 00:35:40.240

And I would say that is the biggest difference. You know, we got the basics. However, when I see some of the subject matter that my grandchildren are studying, I say, "Wow.

00:35:41.560 - 00:36:03.300

That looks like college stuff to me." And yet, they're getting so much more advanced things, and of course, they are able to get their hands on more advanced information. So in one way it's good, and in another way it's bad, but I really think that any young

00:36:03.440 - 00:36:26.260

student today who applies themselves can go do great things. Great things are happening in this world anyway. Look at how much older we are now living, like I'm in my 83rd year. What was discipline like in school for kids?

00:36:32.620 - 00:36:51.780

I cannot recall ever seeing anyone having, oh, alright, if someone did something wrong you were sent to the principal's office. That's about the extent of it. What happened after that, I don't know.

00:36:53.140 - 00:37:19.020

But we didn't have drugs in schools. I think the most worst, if you want to call it that, thing was smoking. And the "fast crowd" in school would smoke, but they would wait. They had to wait one block past the school before they could smoke.

00:37:19.780 - 00:37:42.800

But I mean that was really risque. I do not recall drinking parties, but if they had those things, I was not in that group. I am sure that there must have been a lot of that, or some of it. But for some reason or other, I guess I just was not popular.

00:37:43.960 - 00:38:01.180

Nobody ever asked me. Kelly: After your graduation, then what did you do? Did you get a job? Yes, and it was still like, because that was 1938 that I graduated, so it was still feeling

00:38:01.280 - 00:38:25.900

the effects of the depression. And I can remember taking the bus down to Newark, to the Newark Times, to get the paper when it first came out at 10 o'clock in the morning, so that I could get to the WADADS and immediately start searching for a job, going to the different places in Newark, because

00:38:25.940 - 00:38:42.760

that was the big business center. And I went to so many different places. I had no experience and all that right out of high school, so I just would go on interview after interview.

00:38:43.460 - 00:39:15.020

My mother at that time was working for Best and Company. What had happened was, and I guess let me see, I must have still been in high school. Best and Company was a store that had several branches, and they had one, East Orange. And they were on a par with Saks and Bloomingdale's and so forth.

00:39:16.540 - 00:39:36.560

So they needed a corsetier. In those days, you would be outfitted in a corset, and very often a doctor would do an operation and then he would send you to a corsetier who would fit you in the proper corset.

00:39:37.260 - 00:39:54.880

And their corsetier was going on vacation, and they asked my mother to come in and work for a couple of weeks, because she had that background from the store that she had. She did, and they liked her so much that she stayed there until she retired twenty-five years later.

00:39:57.140 - 00:40:19.800

So she was working, and then she would go to this place for lunch, and, you know, a little lunch counter. And they were right next to a real estate office. And it just so happened that she heard that the realtor was looking for someone to work

00:40:19.860 - 00:40:26.480

there. She told me about it. I ran down, and I got the job. That is where I got my first job.

00:40:27.020 - 00:40:39.420

And that was like, I graduated in June, and that was like September. So that whole summer I was looking for a job. So you became a salesman or a clerk? No, I was just general office.

00:40:42.160 - 00:41:13.640

The boss was always trying to hide from the people that were trying to get money. They used to like the way I would put a straight face saying, "I'm sorry, but Mr. Mack isn't him." Let me ask you, what is a corset?

00:41:20.180 - 00:41:30.540

You asked me what is a corset. Is this a sincere request? Yes. I know, but kids watching this in 50 years will not know.

00:41:31.200 - 00:41:57.360

All right, a corset is something that holds in your tummy and it holds in your rear end. And it can be very uncomfortable. And it used to have stays. Now stays are very fine metal pieces that fit in a piece of fabric in the corset.

00:41:58.520 - 00:42:17.160

And they all are there to help hold you in. And in some courses, now let's go back to way, way back in the 1800s where they used to have them laced. And they used to lace the women up so that their waistlines were real teeny tiny.

00:42:18.260 - 00:42:39.300

And they were really uncomfortable. But then the kind that my mother sold were much more practical. Today, let's see, how would I compare it with today? Today they have the, like the panty, panty things that are stretchable and they hold

00:42:39.360 - 00:42:56.340

you in somewhat, but not as much as a corset. And then also we had garter belts. Do you know what a garter belt is? A garter belt is like an elasticized belt that you put around your waist and from it

00:42:56.280 - 00:43:17.780

hung the gadgets, I don't know what you call them, that would attach to your stockings to hold your stockings up. Pantyhose were an unheard of object in those days. So you not only had stockings, but you had stockings with seams down the back.

00:43:18.840 - 00:43:42.520

And when I was a teenager and during those years, as a matter of fact, even with the wasps, we had stockings with seams and you were always looking on the back to make sure that your seams going all the way up were straight. So if you didn't have a corset that had the proper hooks on it to hook onto the stockings,

00:43:43.020 - 00:43:57.840

then you could wear a garter belt because the garter belt would do the same thing, except that had a much longer thing coming down from the garter belt to stocking. How long did you work at the real estate office?

00:43:59.140 - 00:44:16.760

I worked there about two years. And his business was politically involved. If he was a Democrat and the Democrats got in, then he was appointed to handle all

00:44:16.760 - 00:44:46.740

the records of all of these properties. And if they got out, then the Republican got in, then it was given to a Republican. And so he said that he unfortunately, he was not able to afford me anymore. So I was looking for another job and I got another job with Kronheim in Newark, also real estate. And there I was in the complaint department. And

00:44:46.740 - 00:45:03.120

If anybody had anything wrong with their apartment, they would call and then we would have to get the estimates and so on and so forth to have things fixed. And my boss was a woman and she was terrible. She was just awful.

00:45:05.180 - 00:45:29.040

She was very demanding and if she was angry with you, she told you in no uncertain terms right in the middle of the office in front of all the people that worked there and so forth, and I was really, really unhappy in that job. So on my summer vacation, I started looking for another job, and I was able to get a job

00:45:29.100 - 00:45:56.120

with Conmar Manufacturing, also in Newark, who manufactured zippers, and they were doing war work for the war. And so I got, I was hired there as secretary to private secretary to the patent attorney. And that was the last secretarial job that I had because it was from there that I got into the WASPs.

00:45:56.520 - 00:46:23.620

Okay. And going back to that first job in the real estate office, did he hire female real estate salespeople? I do not recall that he had too many salespeople. His business was primarily managing properties, and so there was not too much involved with

00:46:23.620 - 00:46:35.040

selling. And as far as Cronheim is concerned, they did everything. They had sales as well as managing properties. It was a much larger company.

00:46:36.100 - 00:47:06.580

And I can't recall any female sales, real estate salespeople. I just wondered the difference in the hiring practices if females were included in the upper level jobs that would make more money, or was it mostly male dominated? I cannot remember her name, but she was in charge of—

00:47:07.260 - 00:47:11.240

She was like— Yeah. Okay. So, she was—yeah.

00:47:13.120 - 00:47:38.040

Okay. Do you recall where you were and how you felt when you heard about Pearl Harbor? I was in New York City at a Temple Youth Council meeting and the meeting was interrupted with that news and of course everyone scattered.

00:47:39.420 - 00:48:06.600

And as you know, the day after Pearl Harbor, every faction of the Army, Navy, Marines were loaded with people who were volunteering. And that's where a lot of my friends went directly into the service. This youth council, was that a volunteer job?

00:48:08.260 - 00:48:35.380

It was something sponsored by the temple. You know, most churches and temples have youth groups. And so this was a youth group, and then the youth group which was in Newark, but they would meet with other youth groups. And that's what this was. It was a meeting from Connecticut and New Jersey and New York City and so forth. It was a large meeting.

00:48:36.600 - 00:48:53.040

When you started working in the real estate and then changed jobs and so forth, what did you do for fun? Well, letís see, I was dating someone then and we used to like to dance and we always had the big bands in our area.

00:48:54.160 - 00:49:11.380

We used to go to the Meadowbrook where the big bands were or we would go to the movies or we would go to the Worldís Fair. I remember going to the Worldís Fair, was that 1939? The 1939 Worldís Fair in Long Island.

00:49:12.480 - 00:49:18.200

And uh... [Bagpipes playing] >> Uh-oh. Letís go ahead about the big bands.

00:49:18.320 - 00:49:30.340

Iím rolling. >> Oh, good. Yeah, did, were you ever able to go to a dance place where, with the big bands, a recognizable name?

00:49:30.800 - 00:49:49.680

Well we had one very famous place called the Meadowbrook and the big bands would come and they would play for maybe like three or four weeks. We had Benny Goodman, Tommy Dorsey, what are some of the other names? Harry James.

00:49:49.700 - 00:50:18.540

Harry James. They would all pass through and we would always try to get into those dances to those big bands. They were wonderful. I used to love to dance, and fortunately almost everybody I dated was a good dancer, including Joe. He was a wonderful dancer. Do you recall how much it would cost to get in?

00:50:21.260 - 00:50:46.420

I do not recall how much it cost. I probably knew, but in those days, the man always said So, he would get the tickets or make the reservations or do whatever. Let me ask you, do you recall the first airplane that you ever saw that made a real impression on you?

00:50:49.760 - 00:51:12.340

I guess the first airplane I saw that made an impression on me was probably the one that I was going to fly, which was a little two-seater, side-by-side, Taylorcraft. Where did you first see that airplane? I'll back up.

00:51:15.100 - 00:51:35.500

While I was working, always in the back of my mind was the fact that I did not get to go to college. And so one day I said, "Stop feeling sorry for yourself and do something about it." I said, "Okay, I'll go to night school." "All right, what subject are you going to take?"

00:51:36.920 - 00:51:49.300

So I looked over the curriculum and I saw aviation courses. I said, "Oh, aviation, that's here to stay. I think I'll take some aviation courses." So after work I would go to night school.

00:51:50.600 - 00:52:26.380

And Charlie Greeter was the instructor, and he had had a flight school at Teterboro Airport, but because of the war, there was no flying in that section of New Jersey from the whole New York metropolitan area all the way to Pennsylvania, which is quite a distance. And so he opened up a flight school, took a farmer's field, made an airport out of

00:52:26.400 - 00:52:46.800

it in Martins Creek, Pennsylvania, which was right across the Delaware River. Well, and taking the courses, it sounded very interesting. Then we learned that he had a flight school and would teach flying, and I said, "Oh, well, let me try that."

00:52:46.800 - 00:53:11.300

So he had rented a little house down on the Delaware River, which was within walking distance of the airport. And those of us who had to come from Long Island, New York, New Jersey, would, on weekends, we would take the Greyhound bus out, and he would pick us up at the Greyhound bus line,

00:53:11.680 - 00:53:27.460

us across the river to this little house and we would all ship in a nominal fee for the food and so forth and help with the cooking and so on. And we would stay there the whole weekend and he only had, I think, about three or four airplanes.

00:53:28.400 - 00:53:49.540

So there were several of us doing this from the New York metropolitan area. We would just have to take our turn in flying. And so this is where we learned to fly, and he was in the process of building this hangar. And so we would help him build the hangar, and we used to climb up the ladder with the

00:53:49.540 - 00:54:06.520

cinder blocks on our shoulders and hand him a cinder block and so forth and so forth. And he had two instructors, so he instructed and then he had another instructor. I mean it got to be a great place to go, and we used to have a lot of fun, a whole bunch of us.

00:54:07.520 - 00:54:20.300

Were there other girls? Yes, there were a lot of other girls. As a matter of fact, one of the women that learned to fly with us, Jen North, she was accepted in 44-6.

00:54:23.520 - 00:54:41.480

And there were six of us that were accepted in, we all applied at the same time, and we were all accepted for the same class, and we all traveled to Sweetwater together by train. And again, it was great companionship.

00:54:41.700 - 00:54:53.680

Kelly: How did your mom and dad feel about it when you told them you wanted to learn to fly? Lowry: My mother said, "That's great." She wishes she could do something like that.

00:54:55.160 - 00:55:11.260

And my father thought it was great, too. They never held us back, not any one of the three of us. If you wanted to do something, well, go for it. See what you can do.

00:55:13.040 - 00:55:23.440

In the meantime, what was your brother doing? My brother was in the service. He was in the Air Force. He was a meteorologist, and he was stationed in England.

00:55:25.260 - 00:55:43.220

As a matter of fact, he had something to do with selecting the day for D-Day. He was like winds aloft, because they had the whole thing broken down. As it turned out, I do not think the weather was that great, but he was a part of that team.

00:55:43.280 - 00:55:59.620

He was stationed in England, and then he was stationed in France, after we occupied a certain portion of France. Were you and your brother ever able to go back home at the same time in your uniforms? No.

00:55:59.900 - 00:56:04.920

No. No. Okay. So you kept flying.

00:56:05.320 - 00:56:15.900

When did you hear about a training program for women? It was when I was taking flying lessons. Someone told us about it. I don't remember who.

00:56:16.880 - 00:56:35.660

And Mrs. Sheehy was coming to our area. She worked for Jacqueline Cochran, and she was going to be doing interviews. So she interviewed me at the Robert Treat Hotel in Newark, New Jersey, and interviewed the others there as well.

00:56:36.500 - 00:57:00.020

And she went into Manhattan and interviewed the women from that area. And then we had to pass, if we passed our interview, we then had to pass the Army physical. And so we had to go to Newark Airport and pass the Army physical. Kelly: Was that a terrifying experience?

00:57:02.350 - 00:57:18.200

Lowry: Well, I knew I was in good health. It was not a terrifying experience because I knew I was in good health and I knew I had good eyesight. Having had a cataract in this eye, I can now see 20/20 out of this eye.

00:57:19.880 - 00:57:30.340

My golfing friends will attest to my good eyesight. I can always follow their balls. Do you recall your solo flight? Yes.

00:57:33.680 - 00:57:59.240

My first reaction was, "It's about time." Charlie Greeter, as I said, had very few airplanes. And this airport that he had made, as I said before, was a farmer's field. And so when the weather was too bad for flying, he rigged up this platform that he put on

00:57:59.120 - 00:58:20.780

the back of his car, and he would ride up and down, and we would walk behind, and we would take the big rocks and put them on the platform to get them off the field, because he was trying to make a smooth field. And airplanes you could not buy in those days, you just repaired what you had.

00:58:21.360 - 00:58:39.680

So he was very protective of his aircraft. So he wanted to make sure that you really, really knew how to handle that airplane before he would let you take it up by yourself. Plus the fact that he had one runway that was a little longer than the other runway,

00:58:39.860 - 00:59:01.580

which was really, really short. When I went back and looked at it, I said, "Holy mackerel there, that's a short runway." And that was the runway that I soloed on, but I was just very happy to solo, because I think at that time I had about eighteen, nineteen hours of duel.

00:59:02.140 - 00:59:27.940

I figured, you know, it's about time. You recall how much a lesson cost? I remember that when I got out of the WASPs, I used to get paid for instructing three dollars an hour. So, we probably paid, I'm going to guess about $12 probably with an instructor,

00:59:28.220 - 00:59:53.340

maybe $9 solo. But it's strictly a guess. >> Right. And what airplane did you solo in? >> In a side-by-side Tailor Craft, which was a, it had a wheel rather than a stick. The women flew, had a stick, but this had a wheel.

00:59:55.800 - 01:00:18.200

Had you sat in the left seat before, or did you solo from the right seat? No, you soloed from the left, and you sat in the—when you were instructed, you sat in the left seat too. The instructor in the right seat. Did anything happen during the time you were learning to fly? Any unusual—

01:00:18.200 - 01:00:30.600

>> I'm so glad you asked. >> Jen North and I were kind of like buddies and we had the same instructor, Howard Bartholomew. I started out with Charlie Greeter and then he handed me

01:00:30.620 - 01:00:45.420

over to Howard Bartholomew and he was a very mischievous guy. So Jen and I were reading about aerobatics and how to do, well in those days we called them acrobatics and how to do this and how to do that.

01:00:45.560 - 01:01:09.680

So we were conferring with Bart, you know, "How do you do a loop?" He said, "Tell you what, now that you know how to do a loop, when Jen solos, you go down" there was one little section of the field where there were like woods, and he says, "You wait there and she'll taxi down and she'll pick you up."

01:01:09.680 - 01:01:38.100

both student pilots, and then the two of you go up and you see what you can do. So I did that. We went up, we got enough altitude. I said, "Okay, Jen, you do the throttle and I'll do the stick, the wheel." And you know, we were going to try to do a loop, the two of us, you know, one doing one part and the other doing the other. Well, of course it

01:01:38.000 - 01:01:56.660

It was a fiasco, but we had so much fun. Then we came down and I snuck out back in the woods again. So we would do things like that. EC: After you had your interview and your physical, how long did you have to wait before

01:01:56.780 - 01:02:21.660

you left for Sweetwater? I probably was interviewed in, like, say September, and we were supposed to go in the January 1944 class, but then they notified us we would not get in until the February '44 class. So that is the class that we went into.

01:02:22.240 - 01:02:56.060

Were you aware of how unusual it was for girls to fly? I was not aware that it was unusual for a girl to fly. It was just something you saw other women doing, young girls doing, and you did it too. Before you went into training, what did you understand that training would be like, and

01:02:56.180 - 01:03:12.720

what was it for? What was the purpose? Steele: We were told that the purpose was to try to—that it was an experimental program, and if found successful, it would be made a part of the Army Air Corps.

01:03:15.900 - 01:03:35.220

We had to sign a paper saying that we would stay in service, that we would join the Army Air Corps and stay in the service. Because the way it was set up, since we were under civil service, we could resign any time we wanted to.

01:03:36.700 - 01:04:05.360

So they did not want to give us this expensive training and then have us resign. So it was our understanding that we were being primed to become a part of the Army Air Corps and that we would go through the same training as the cadets, except that we would not be trained for combat.

01:04:07.660 - 01:04:35.040

And then we would get our wings and we would become second lieutenants. So it was completely understood that you were not in this for a joyride. Kelly: What was your understanding of why they needed women pilots? They needed women pilots because there weren't enough men pilots to go around.

01:04:35.740 - 01:05:02.580

And our primary duty was to relieve men for active service. And something that Cady Steele told me, which I had never realized, is that you need between twelve and fourteen pilots stateside for every combat pilot that goes overseas. And when you stop to think about it, you need all of the instructors for all the different

01:05:02.660 - 01:05:14.760

phases of training, and you need the ferry pilots, and you need the engineering testing pilots. The numbers add up. That is the number of pilots that are required.

01:05:16.000 - 01:05:37.280

So we were formed to do stateside duty. Kelly: What did your mom and dad say when you told them what you wanted to do? Again, my mother and father, they were all for it, and they had a son in the Air Corps, and they were very proud to have a daughter go in.

01:05:40.120 - 01:06:09.080

You know how parents are, they always brag about their children. Kelly: When you left for Sweetwater, how did you get to Sweetwater? We took the train. We all got our tickets, the six of us, and went on the train together. Coach, we couldn't get berths. I mean, trains were really, really crowded in those days.

01:06:10.640 - 01:06:33.360

We were off to see the wizard. We had a ball on the way down, and people were all being very helpful. We had Army officers, and they would buy us donuts and coffee and everything else. We all brought a picnic lunch, of course.

01:06:34.920 - 01:06:49.300

We did a lot of eating, not too much sleeping. We were exhausted. We had to change trains in St. Louis. And then we had the long trip from there to Sweetwater.

01:06:51.540 - 01:07:12.160

And we got to Sweetwater, but nobody had announced it was Sweetwater. And while the train was stopped, we said to someone, "How much further is it to Sweetwater?" And he said, "You are in Sweetwater. Well, you never saw six people scramble so fast to get out.

01:07:12.750 - 01:07:25.840

We just grabbed our stuff and ran before the train went on to the next stop. Kelly: What was your first impression of Sweetwater? Had you ever been to Texas? Lowry: I had never been to Texas.

01:07:27.180 - 01:07:54.300

I recall writing home and saying, "These Texans are very nice people, but they wear big hats and they talk funny. But we came into town, and of course, this was a very small town. When you are used to the New York metropolitan area, and you go into Sweetwater, Texas, which

01:07:54.340 - 01:08:14.420

is not huge by today's means either, but it was even smaller back then. So we thought, "Well, it is really a small town." But we were excited and got to the Blue Bonnet Hotel, and we were so happy to have a good night's sleep after that train trip.

01:08:14.620 - 01:08:29.400

It was a really long trip. Kelly: Okay. Then describe your trip out to Avenger Field, which is how far out from the town? Is it about three miles away?

01:08:29.980 - 01:08:54.840

Something like that. Well, we were invited to the graduation of '44-1. So they came for us in buses, or was it the cattle car? I do not recall.

01:08:57.120 - 01:09:18.980

And they took us to the graduation, because we were not to report to the base until the next day. And so we attended the graduation, and we were so impressed. and they sang songs, and I wrote oodles about it at home. Did I tell you I am writing a

01:09:19.060 - 01:09:30.360

book? Do you recall any dignitaries that happened to be at that graduation? Or was Miss Cochran there? Steele: No.

01:09:30.580 - 01:09:37.320

No. Well, she might have been. I can— Kelly: Oh, yeah.

01:09:37.480 - 01:09:55.840

I'm going to ask you about her later on. And after the graduation, then they took you back into town? Steele: Back to the Blue Bonnet Hotel. And then the next day, when you reported for duty, for training, how did you get back out

01:09:55.940 - 01:09:59.380

there? Was it the cattle truck? Steele: Yeah, they came for us. Kelly: Right.

01:09:59.740 - 01:10:22.620

Can you describe what a cattle truck, what it looks like? Steele: A cattle truck looks like a cattle truck. I do not know what it looked like before, but it had benches on either side, and you would sit on those.

01:10:23.240 - 01:10:43.180

They used what we called the cattle cars, and I do not know what they were used for before. I have a picture of one, but that does not help you, does it? Let me ask you, how were you dressed? How were the girls dressed to get on a cattle

01:10:43.360 - 01:10:56.620

truck? Biddy: Oh, I probably had a suit and a suitcase, because we were told not to bring a lot of things with us. Kelly: Did you have on a hat and gloves?

01:10:59.220 - 01:11:16.780

Biddy: I do not think so. I do not think I had on a hat and gloves. But you all get in this cattle truck and you go out to Avenger. What is your impression of the field itself? Betty: Well, we did not get to see too much of the actual airfield.

01:11:18.820 - 01:11:47.640

We were taken to our barracks or bays, and we were assigned. And then we had to pick up our linens and get acquainted with the other women who we were going to be rooming with. It seems to me that when we first got there, we might have had eight in a barrack until

01:11:48.820 - 01:11:58.960

we finally had enough room so that we just had six. How many did you have? Kelly: Six. Rothenberg: If I can.

01:11:59.260 - 01:12:14.140

Kelly: Six. Rothenberg: Did you ever have eight? Well, then maybe we just had the six. We were shuffled around, you know, because as some of the women washed out, and we were

01:12:14.240 - 01:12:32.760

all assigned alphabetically. Apparently you just chose whomever you wanted to bunk with. But then they found that it was better just to do it alphabetically. Kelly: Describe these barracks where you lived.

01:12:32.820 - 01:13:16.840

McMillan: We had iron cots, and then we had a "closet," and we would put our suitcases or trunks or whatever we had to store things in under the bed or at the foot of the bed. And there was not a lot of room. And then there was an area between one bay and another bay in which there were, as I

01:13:19.680 - 01:14:05.100

and two sinks to be shared by twelve people. Everybody's scrambling early in the morning. Kelly: Tell me about your bay mates. We had good bay mates. And as a matter of fact, we had six bay mates and six different religions. We had Presbyterian, Baptist, Seventh-day Adventist, Jewish, Protestant, and Catholic,

01:14:06.860 - 01:14:28.520

all in one bay. And from time to time we would discuss religion, but each one respected the So, there was never a problem there. Were they all from the same state? No.

01:14:30.240 - 01:15:05.960

Delta was from the north, I think she was from the Virginia area. Mimi was from Texas, of course I was from New Jersey. I know where she is now. Eleanor Gunderson was from—she's in California now, but I don't recall where she was from

01:15:06.080 - 01:15:15.100

then. Levy: Did you all have similar backgrounds? Russell: I would say no. No.

01:15:15.100 - 01:15:49.940

Do you know the profession of any of those girls? Were some teachers? were students and I think Velta, I think she was, I don't recall whether she was in flying or not. I don't really recall where all of them were from. I'd have to ponder on that one.

01:15:51.960 - 01:15:58.420

Tell me some of the rules or the regulations. Do you remember taking an oath of office? Yes. Okay.

01:15:59.300 - 01:16:20.520

And then tell me some of the rules that were in place. Well, you had to have a very neat barracks at all times. And on Saturday mornings they had what they called SMI, Saturday morning inspection. And when they came in, if they found, as we used to say, if they find trash in the trash

01:16:20.620 - 01:16:50.600

basket or if they find water in the sink, then that was a demerit. Or anything dirty, they had the white gloves, and if you got a demerit, and if you got enough demerits, you were confined to Bay. If you were able to get off on a Saturday or a Sunday and you were confined to Bay, then you just did not get to go into town. And if you had

01:16:50.660 - 01:17:07.420

enough demerits, you were kicked out of the program entirely. So we always had to keep our Bay spotless. And of course we had to obey all of the rules. You had to go to school when you were supposed to, and you had to go to the flight line when you were supposed to.

01:17:07.600 - 01:17:23.700

It was Army living. What was the personnel like that ran the base? Were they civilians or Army? Well, the personnel, we had both civilian and Army, because we had the Army check pilots

01:17:24.540 - 01:17:41.420

as well as the civilian check pilots. But it was run mostly by a civilian contractor who hired the instructors. So it was mostly civilian. Did you have a commanding officer?

01:17:43.140 - 01:17:53.920

No. During training we had no commanding officer. Unless you want to call Dee Dee Deaton a commanding officer. She was the assistant to Jacqueline Cochran.

01:17:57.320 - 01:18:29.320

what a typical day was like in training? Well, a typical day in training was you would get up when the bugle was blown, which was usually like about six o'clock in the morning, and then you had to go to mess. And of course, there were some of us that found out that, Let's say you had to fall into formation at 6.30 and some of us found out that if we

01:18:29.440 - 01:18:50.540

put our zoot suits, which is another name for coveralls, on over our pajamas, we could get to sleep ten minutes longer. So we would do that and then we would march to breakfast and usually when we marched we sang songs.

01:18:51.740 - 01:19:10.500

There are loads and loads of songs that had been written. And then we would come back and that's when we could finish getting dressed. Then we would either go to ground school, because if you had ground school in the morning, you had flying in the afternoon, and then sometimes they would reverse it.

01:19:10.510 - 01:19:34.300

You would have flying in the morning and ground school in the afternoon. So wherever you went, you had to be there at a certain time, you had to fall into formation and march to wherever you were going to go to perform any of those duties or go to calisthenics where you had to do calisthenics and you also had to do marching.

01:19:35.220 - 01:19:51.100

So you had to learn all of those things. Who taught you to march? Lieutenant LaRue. LeRoux is winning the war, parley-boo. Lieutenant LeRoux is winning the war, parley-boo. Lieutenant

01:19:51.260 - 01:20:12.900

LeRoux is winning the war with his hop, hoo, three, four, inky dinky parley-boo. Kelly: Your high school singing is coming back. What was ground school? What courses did you take in ground school?

01:20:12.900 - 01:20:36.080

McMillan: In ground school, we took navigation, aircraft and engines, theory of flight, meteorology, math or physics. Was that difficult for you? Which one was most difficult?

01:20:36.420 - 01:20:55.560

The most difficult for me, well, it wasn't math, because we had a wonderful math teacher who the very first day got up and said, "I want all of you to know that there is no one in this class who is going to fail. You are all going to pass."

01:20:55.560 - 01:21:19.120

I think his name was Ward, he was a nice guy. The most difficult, I didn't seem to have too much difficulty with the ground school. Was Morse code easy for you? Oh, Morse code, yes.

01:21:19.340 - 01:21:29.360

Morse code was the most difficult. We had to do eight words a minute. Yes, that was. And also, the Link Trainer was another one.

01:21:29.400 - 01:21:54.600

I did not like being closed up in that box. What is a Link Trainer? A Link Trainer is a contraption that the devil concocted, and it is like a big black box, And you pull, you have a hood that comes over and then you get in and then you pull the

01:21:54.700 - 01:22:22.820

hood over your head and here you are sitting in this big black box, which has lights that light up the instruments. And you are flying this big box as if it were an airplane. And it has wires that go to a desk, and on the desk there's a little pen that moves

01:22:23.000 - 01:22:48.240

around and shows you where you're going and what you're doing. And underneath the pen is the map, and you are supposed to fly certain patterns. It's as if you were flying in actual weather, where you were in the clouds and you could see nothing. So you are flying completely by sound and by what your instruments are

01:22:48.380 - 01:23:04.180

telling you. Okay, she needs to change tape. Okay. Good description. Well, I did this for a child. What was the first airplane you flew at Avenger Field?

01:23:04.180 - 01:23:28.820

The first airplane that I flew at Avenger Field was the Stearman, PT-17, and that's an open cockpit aircraft, and it has a wing on the top and a wing at the bottom. And it is 220 horsepower. What is specifically hard about flying the Stearman?

01:23:29.920 - 01:23:52.380

The Stearman has a very narrow landing gear. As the program progressed, they had various aircraft for various phases. Since the women were expendable, they decided that they would see if they could eliminate one of the phases.

01:23:53.280 - 01:24:09.260

The phase that they wanted to eliminate was the basic training phase. First you started out with PT, primary training, then you went to BT, basic training, then you went to AT, advanced training. So they said, "Well, if we can eliminate one of these training things, you know, we

01:24:09.340 - 01:24:34.400

can shorten the period of time and so forth of teaching." So they said, "Well, if we put them directly from a stearman into an AT-6, that's quite a jump and the AT-6 has kind of like a narrow landing gear, so let's put them in an airplane in the primary trainer that has a narrow landing gear.

01:24:34.520 - 01:24:57.100

Well, what does a narrow landing gear mean? It means that you can easily ground loop. Ground loop is when you lose control of the aircraft after you land and it starts grounding, winding around and maybe a wingtip will hit and it'll get the wingtip and damage it and

01:24:57.240 - 01:25:07.720

so forth. So they said, "Let's teach them in the Stearman." So the primary difference between primary trainers, that's it. Okay.

01:25:08.260 - 01:25:16.980

Did you ever ground loop? No, fortunately. I never ground looped. Do you recall who your instructor was in the Stearman?

01:25:18.040 - 01:25:45.960

I was extremely fortunate. I had Mr. Murray, and Mr. Murray was one of the flight inspectors. But as the classes came in, he was just a regular flight instructor, because none of us had progressed to the point where we had to have check rides.

01:25:47.120 - 01:26:06.900

So a checkride is where they see how you are progressing in your training and if you're where you're supposed to be. Because to my mind, there isn't anyone who can't learn how to fly. But with the Army Air Corps, it was that you had to learn how to fly quickly.

01:26:08.060 - 01:26:28.480

So if you could do what you were supposed to within the prescribed period of time, that was fine. If you couldn't, they did not have the time to spend with you until you could. So he was a check pilot, but he was excellent.

01:26:28.540 - 01:26:45.580

He was so good. So I had him all the way through solo and a few hours afterward, and then I was given another flight instructor because he was needed as a check pilot. My second flight instructor was Mr. McLanders.

01:26:47.460 - 01:27:05.640

In primary, did any of your baymates wash out? Yes, in primary. Well, not the baymates that I had mentioned before. They were the final ones, but unfortunately, approximately, a little less than fifty percent

01:27:05.740 - 01:27:25.080

of each class would wash out, not make it. And there were six of us, as I said before, who came down from Martins Creek, and three of us made it and three of us did not, which was really sad. I mean, we were sad to see them go.

01:27:26.920 - 01:27:42.180

Yes, some of the original bay mates that I had did wash out. I don't recall all their names, but they did. So, we've-- >> Are you aware of why they washed out?

01:27:42.540 - 01:28:13.560

Was it strictly flying? >> When our good friend Alice, who we learned to fly with in Martins Creek, when she washed out, we don't really know why. I mean, she was an extremely bright person, and she was just not used to failing anything.

01:28:14.980 - 01:28:44.000

She took it quite to heart. As a matter of fact, I still correspond with her, but I cannot get her to come to any function. She had such shame. But then Winnie Lopinto blamed it on the establishment, and I don't think any of it was true.

01:28:44.280 - 01:29:07.740

I think it was just as I had said. I have heard of cases where some of the women had personality clashes with their instructors, we were told right from the very beginning, if you have any clash whatsoever with your instructor, ask for another instructor. It will not be held against you, because it's

01:29:07.840 - 01:29:33.700

not possible for everybody on this earth to get along together, and there are going to be some people who just can't get along together. So, just ask for another instructor. And I of them should have just asked for another instructor, and they might have made it. But some of them did, some of them did not.

01:29:34.810 - 01:29:49.660

Kelly: When you were in training, were you aware of what the girls were flying or their jobs who had already graduated? Lowry: When we were in training, yes, sure. We heard about them.

01:29:49.920 - 01:30:12.300

As a matter of fact, we heard about Dora Doherty and Dede Moorman flying the B-29. We knew the women were ferrying all over the country and that they were ferrying pursuits and bombers. We were all licking our chops.

01:30:13.720 - 01:30:39.880

We wanted to get a part of that. What would happen when the first girl in the class would solo? Well, yeah, we had a wishing well. And if you had a test coming up or a checkride, you would throw a coin into the fountain and wish for good luck.

01:30:40.760 - 01:30:57.800

And so very often when you were through with ground school or when you got through with a solo flight or through with something special, your dear bay mates would throw you in the wishing well. Where was this wishing well?

01:30:58.540 - 01:31:30.980

The wishing well was from where the barracks are, where you marched to the ground school And then on your right was the cafeteria, and behind the cafeteria was the field where you did marching and calisthenics. And so it was between the barracks and the ground school, across from the cafeteria.

01:31:31.250 - 01:31:44.320

Okay. During your primary training, did you fly strictly off of Avenger Field, or were there some auxiliary fields? Well they had auxiliary fields where most of the stearmen would go every morning, the

01:31:44.380 - 01:31:57.040

first flight out. The women that were going to be flying, you would fly with the instructor for one hour and then he would have four students. The second student would fly the second hour and so forth.

01:31:58.040 - 01:32:14.480

So the others, if you were the first one to fly that day, you would fly from Sweetwater, from a venture field to an auxiliary field. And the other three students, along with many other students, would be taken to the auxiliary field,

01:32:15.240 - 01:32:30.840

and they would fly from the auxiliary field. Then you would go back on the cattle car. - Describe the facilities at the auxiliary field. - We had one laboratory, and we had--

01:32:30.900 - 01:32:51.380

- Did you have running water? one laboratory, and I do not really remember. But we did not have much. I mean, I have a picture, so I know that there was a little shack there, and that is about

01:32:51.420 - 01:33:05.540

all there was. You know, it was just a field used primarily to fly out of, and also to practice your takeoffs and landings. When you finished primary, did you have some time off?

01:33:06.920 - 01:33:22.000

Yes, we did. I think we had three or four days. What happened with our class is when we got there, the weather was so bad that we could not start flying for two weeks.

01:33:23.660 - 01:33:44.880

So we said, "Well, why don't we put on a show to give an impression, our impression, of Army life? I mean, here we are walking from civilian life into this thing, and we can do something clever."

01:33:44.880 - 01:34:10.440

So I found out, you know, this person could play the ukulele, and this person could do a hula and that person could write a little skit and so on and so on. So it built up and we went to Dee Dee Deaton and we said, "We want to put on a show." And she said, "Okay." And we called it the Eager Beaver Show. So we were, since we had a half, a whole half

01:34:10.480 - 01:34:36.400

a day of nothing special, the women were all very clever and doing all of these different And we put on the show for Avenger Field. And they liked it so much that they sent us to Camp Barkley. And we put it on at Camp Barkley.

01:34:37.880 - 01:34:56.660

And then they called us together and they said, "We would like to know if you women would like to take this show throughout the United States to the different bases." And we said, "Well, what happens to our flying?" And they said, "Well, you'll have to give that up."

01:34:56.660 - 01:35:06.560

We said, "No way." There wasn't a yes in the crowd. So that was the end of our show business. Did you pretty much direct that production?

01:35:10.260 - 01:35:24.000

Stegi, Stegi, was her first. Julie Jenner. Julie Jenner Stege happened to be with the Ziegfeld Follies and she was in 44-4? No, 3.

01:35:24.520 - 01:35:38.220

44-3. So Mrs. Deaton loaned us her. And so she came and she helped us to produce us and gave us some professional tips and so on and so forth.

01:35:38.400 - 01:35:59.400

And so she was a part of that. So, during the time that you had time off between primary and your next phase, what did you do? Helen: There was a place called Sweetwater Lake, and we could either take the bus there

01:36:00.380 - 01:36:20.720

or Velta had a car. So sometimes we would take the bus and go there. And I remember one time we hired a cottage when we had quite a few days off. And so about eight of us hired this cottage and brought food in and so forth, and lived

01:36:20.800 - 01:36:41.760

by the lake and went swimming and slept a lot. We were always tired, always tired. Do you recall meeting any of the citizens of Sweetwater? Every time we met a citizen of Sweetwater in Sweetwater, they were always wonderful.

01:36:45.940 - 01:37:19.760

They liked us very much. I recall, did I read this recently, where there were some prostitutes that had come into town and they were telling the people that they were WASPs in training. And did you read about that? Yeah. And Mrs. Deaton heard about this, so she made all of us stay

01:37:19.980 - 01:37:38.180

off limits and stay at the airfield. No time off was given to anyone. And so, here these women were in town saying they were WASPs, and people knew that we had no time off, so they knew that they were not legitimate.

01:37:39.320 - 01:37:57.420

So she took care of that. Did Sweetwater have a synagogue for people of the Jewish faith to attend? I don't recall that they did. If they did, I didn't know about it.

01:38:00.560 - 01:38:27.900

When you finished the primary phase then, what did you begin to fly? Then we went directly into the AT-6, the advanced trainers. We went from a 220-horsepower aircraft into a 650-horsepower aircraft. That was not only much heavier and larger, but it had a retractable gear, it had flaps.

01:38:28.480 - 01:38:47.980

Flaps are what slow you down or give you lift, depending on how you use them. It had radios. It had many more instruments. It had a much larger ship.

01:38:48.790 - 01:39:04.980

And much faster. Oh yeah, and it was much faster too. Sure, it would go about 160, cruise about 160, where the stearman—I should ask him. Much slower.

01:39:05.340 - 01:39:13.460

Much slower. Do you recall your instructor in '86? Yes, his name was Jones. They called him Stinky Jones.

01:39:14.620 - 01:39:35.400

And I have to tell you how he got the name Stinky. At one time, he had a forced landing into a septic field, so he got the nickname Stinky Jones. Backing up to your primary training, did anything unusual happen that you can tell us about

01:39:35.480 - 01:40:00.060

in primary? Not really, I mean, we sure worked at it. They were always trying to go for accuracy, and I remember we used to have what they call spot landings.

01:40:01.000 - 01:40:24.800

They would put a mark on the runway and then a mark several feet away, and you were supposed to close your throttle at opposite that mark on your downwind leg, and then land as if your engine had cut out completely. You were not supposed to use your engine any longer.

01:40:25.600 - 01:40:44.480

And you were supposed to be able to land on that spot. And they were kind of fun. And I remember my instructor saying, "Now remember, you cannot use your engine." However, he'd say, "If you have to clear it because you think things aren't quite

01:40:44.620 - 01:41:05.480

right," he says, "you know, you can use it to clear the engine." So, in other words, if you were coming in and you thought you were a little too low and you wanted a little more speed, you could just clear the engine. Kelly: During the time you were flying Stearman's, it was in the wintertime, correct?

01:41:05.480 - 01:41:13.900

McMillan: Yes. Kelly: So what did you wear on your head? McMillan: Everything. In the wintertime, you wore everything.

01:41:14.380 - 01:41:33.120

You wore a fleece-lined jacket. You wore a fleece-lined helmet. You wore fleece-lined pants, and you wore boots, also fleece-lined, and you wore gloves, so you could just about move.

01:41:34.280 - 01:41:56.580

But then when I see what the soldiers over in Iran are wearing, that's nothing. We had to wear nothing compared to what they had to wear. Once you got into AT-6s, what did you primarily do? Was it mostly cross country or was it aerobatics?

01:41:57.080 - 01:42:23.440

No, no, no. Cross country came when we were in advanced training. We had to do all the maneuvers that we did when we were flying Stearman's, except that we had to do it in the AT-6. For instance, in order for accuracy and to see how you control the aircraft, you would

01:42:23.540 - 01:42:45.720

pick a crossroad and you would fly over that crossroad with your wings level with the road and you would then proceed to make a turn coming back to the road and then go through the road and make a turn on the other side, and you would have to calculate how the wind is blowing you.

01:42:46.670 - 01:43:03.880

Do you need more, a steeper bank? I mean, do you have to turn steeper or less steep or whatever? It's an accuracy thing. So all of these different maneuvers that you did were to help you to learn the aircraft

01:43:03.880 - 01:43:26.920

and how it flew and how to be accurate with it. So we had to do that and then of course the takeoffs and the landings. Now we had all of these aircraft coming into Avenger Field at the same time. You would have the steermen at the end of the day coming in from the auxiliary fields

01:43:26.980 - 01:43:42.700

and they had no radios. They had to look to the control tower for a light. If they got a red light, that meant go around, don't land, it's not your turn yet. If they got a green light, they could land.

01:43:43.800 - 01:44:01.020

Then you had the AT-6s. They had a radio, so they could listen to the control tower and be told what to do. And then you had the BT-13, which also had a radio, and they too could listen to the control tower.

01:44:01.260 - 01:44:20.300

Well, you have all of these aircraft converging on this aircraft at more or less the same time, and your instructor always told you, "You put your head on a swivel, because you have to look out." And there were some incidents where a couple of aircraft did crash into each other coming

01:44:20.300 - 01:44:45.580

in to land. When you finished the AT-6 training, then what phase did you go into? Then we went into instrument flying, and for that we went to the BT-13. The BT-13 was 450 horsepower, so that was 200 horsepower less than the AT-6.

01:44:46.860 - 01:45:09.680

It also had a wider landing gear. You had an instructor, and his name was Doc Morgan I had. You had an instructor, but in addition to that, when you practiced instruments, you would sit in the rear seat of the aircraft, and you had a hood that you pulled over your

01:45:09.760 - 01:45:26.040

head so that you couldn't see out. Now you're flying by instruments. And then your buddy, which would be another WASP, would be actually flying the aircraft. She would take it off, put it in position, and then you were in control of the aircraft

01:45:26.140 - 01:45:48.440

and you were flying it by instruments. And we would fly to Abilene, where they had a radio range on which you could practice instrument flying, bringing the aircraft in ready to land at the airport. So you would practice for an hour and you would actually land at Abilene and then you

01:45:48.440 - 01:46:02.360

would switch seats. What was your favorite phase of training? The final phase, navigation. I really liked navigation.

01:46:04.060 - 01:46:24.320

When you finished the instrument phase, then you went into the navigation phase. We went into, when we finished instruments, we went into advanced, and advanced was cross country. And you had to do cross country in Stearman's without radios, and then you had to have,

01:46:26.580 - 01:46:53.280

of course, cross country with the AT-6 with radios, and then you had night cross country. And when we had night cross country, this was the last phase, it was right before graduation, and my mother and sister had come to Sweetwater for the graduation. And they were there a few days before the graduation, and I still had a night cross

01:46:53.380 - 01:47:16.900

country that I had to do. So my friends brought my mother out to the airport to see me off for the night flying. And I started the engine and, you know, taxied away and went by and all that. She turns to my friends and she says, "I don't like the sounds of that motor."

01:47:18.580 - 01:47:29.560

So the next day I'm talking to her and she says, "Why didn't you call me when you came in? I was worried." I said, "Mom, what do you think I've been doing down here for seven months?"

01:47:31.160 - 01:47:54.300

But she did not like the sound of that motor. Kelly: Tell me about one of your cross-countries that stands out in your mind. Landry: Oh, yeah, my first solo cross-country in the AT-6, sure. I was flying into the first place that I had to land.

01:47:54.560 - 01:48:17.480

I cannot remember the name. I was at 6,000 feet, and I was starting to let down, and then suddenly my engine started cutting out and in. And then there was some black smoke coming out of the exhaust, but there were no flames.

01:48:18.480 - 01:48:37.800

And so I was debating, "Let's see. I don't see any flames yet, so I don't think I'm going to have to jump because we always wore parachutes. I'll radio ahead, which I did, and I said, "I think I have an emergency.

01:48:38.160 - 01:49:00.940

I'd like to be cleared for landing immediately." Okay, and I'm coming down, and what's going through my mind is, if I jump and then we lose the airplane and then there's going to be an investigation and then they may be what might wash me out and I'm going to stay with the airplane.

01:49:01.540 - 01:49:21.020

I don't want to wash out." So I stayed with the airplane and I landed it and they looked over the aircraft and they found out that there was something wrong with the magnetos. And so they notified the home base, Avenger Field, and said what the situation was, and

01:49:21.020 - 01:49:35.280

that they were repairing the aircraft and I could fly it back, which is what I did. But I guess that was a pretty narrow escape. Kelly: When the two girls were killed while you were at Avenger, were you acquainted with either of them?

01:49:35.470 - 01:49:48.180

Lowdermilk Honstein No. Kelly: Okay. Lowdermilk Honstein Fortunately, no one in our class was killed. Any other incidents that happened while you were flying in training?

01:49:49.450 - 01:50:13.280

McMillan: Nothing really special. Kelly: I wanted to ask you about the food. McMillan: Well, I hope you're not from Texas. We decided that they cannot cook anything unless they put a lot of, you know, vegetables

01:50:13.380 - 01:50:30.660

cannot be cooked unless you put ham or something in there, something greasy. So, you know, at first we thought, "Gee, the food's pretty good," but then after you're there for a while, you start complaining, of course. But no, generally speaking, the food was good.

01:50:31.280 - 01:50:49.040

It was very good. were allowed to take apples or oranges or something like that out of the cafeteria. As a matter of fact, when we would go on our little picnics, they would sometimes make a picnic lunch for us when we went to Sweetwater Lake.

01:50:50.130 - 01:51:09.100

Kelly: Do you recall a canteen on the base? Lowry: Yeah, we did have a canteen, now that you mention it. Do you recall it enough to describe what it looked like? I really do not remember the canteen that well.

01:51:10.640 - 01:51:42.440

This is probably where we bought our stationery and stamps and so forth. While you were in training, were there social activities that took place on the base itself, except for your show? I remember one time a few of us were flown in a B-17 to another base where they were

01:51:42.500 - 01:52:00.100

having a dance. And I don't recall, maybe Camp Barkley would come once in a while and we would have something in the gym. recall a lot of social things being planned for us.

01:52:00.230 - 01:52:25.860

Kelly: Do you know where the B-17 came from? Beall: No, but I can probably look in my logbook and tell you. Kelly: During the time you were in training, what did you wear as dress uniforms? Beall: They had no formal dress uniforms for us while we were in training, because we did

01:52:25.860 - 01:52:47.020

get our formal uniforms until we knew that we were going to graduate, and then we had them for graduation. So for occasions like other people's, other classes' graduations and so forth, we had what they call "officer's pinks."

01:52:47.020 - 01:53:10.000

they were pants, and then we would buy a white shirt and have a little overseas cap. And that's how we would dress and march and so forth so that we looked more or less uniform. And at one time I think five generals were going to come to see one of our graduations

01:53:10.920 - 01:53:29.540

And it was then that they started telling us all that we had to buy these uniform pants and buy a white shirt. So the pants became known as the General's Pants because we were dressing up for the generals.

01:53:31.010 - 01:54:00.300

But at some point before you graduated, there were new uniforms which you had on. for me that uniform and the symbols that are on it? Betty: Okay, the ones on the shoulder are the Fourth Air Force, and the aqua one is good conduct, the red one is victory medal, and the blue one is the American campaign.

01:54:00.640 - 01:54:23.760

And on your sleeve? Well, that's the Air Force symbol. Okay. And the Fourth Air Force is indicative of what? The section of the country where we were located. The Fourth Air Force was located in that area.

01:54:24.320 - 01:54:47.900

Okay. Do you know who designed and made those uniforms for the Wasp? Well, I know that Jacqueline Cochran had a designer, and I'm sure it was a very famous designer whose name escapes me at the moment. But I do recall that there were other designs, but Jacqueline Cochran liked this one, and

01:54:48.080 - 01:55:12.460

so she hired a very beautiful model to model this one that went before a selection committee and they selected this uniform. I have to tell you a little bit, since we're talking about uniforms, that my uniform is currently on display at the Smithsonian Institute in Washington, D.C.

01:55:13.780 - 01:55:42.180

And when I was the president of the organization from 1975 to 1978, which was the time period where we were finally recognized as veterans of World War II. I had to appear at many occasions and Gretchen Graba, another WASP, was dying of cancer and she was unable to come to Washington to any of these functions.

01:55:42.700 - 01:56:03.000

She knew that I did not have a uniform, so she sent me this uniform and told me that I should wear this uniform at any occasion, having to do with the WASPs. So I thought that was very nice of her to do. Kelly: That is terrific.

01:56:05.400 - 01:56:28.840

When you had finished your course and knew you were going to graduate, did you have a choice of assignments after graduation? Well, after graduation, or before the graduation, they would give you a form to fill out and you would say what you wanted to fly.

01:56:30.780 - 01:56:47.140

Not that you were going to get it, but you would put in what you wanted to fly, but you really had no say in where you were going to be stationed or with whom you were just assigned. How they assigned the people, I do not know.

01:56:48.600 - 01:57:07.540

Is there anything about your training that I have left out that you could share with us? I do not think so. When you were ready for graduation, tell me about some of your family coming for graduation.

01:57:09.000 - 01:57:35.880

My mother and sister, my sister was, let's see, I guess nine years old at that time, they traveled across the country by Greyhound bus doing sightseeing as they went, and went to California and did a lot of sightseeing there, and then came back to Sweetwater, Texas, and stayed a few days there for my graduation.

01:57:36.240 - 01:57:53.900

Kelly: Who gave you your wings at graduation, do you recall? McMillan: They were just handed to us, I do not recall. Kelly: Was your graduation outside? McMillan: No, it was in the gymnasium.

01:57:57.630 - 01:58:07.360

Kelly: When you graduated, then did you have some time off? McMillan: Yes. What did you do? I went home.

01:58:08.280 - 01:58:28.080

I went back to New Jersey and visited with family and friends and so forth. You recall your dad's reaction when he saw you in your uniform? Well he was very proud. I got a big kiss.

01:58:30.360 - 01:58:41.500

The whole family, they all thought I was Miss Wonderful. Kelly: At that time, where was your brother? Was he still overseas? Becky: He was still in England.

01:58:41.630 - 01:59:11.120

Kelly: When you were due to report, how did you get to your base, and what was that base? I tried to get, we were allowed to ask for military transportation, but I was unable to get any military transportation. I was stationed in Pecos, Texas, and it was a million miles from nowhere, but they have

01:59:11.180 - 01:59:36.180

lots of wind. As a matter of fact, I'll backtrack a minute. When we had our 25th anniversary at Sweetwater, Texas, I had all the kids and grandchildren that I had at that time come down for that occasion.

01:59:37.300 - 02:00:08.680

And they got down there and they said, "It's so windy here. you flew in that wind?" Because you know how sweet water was, it was wind. Well, Pegas was even worse. But at any rate, I got there, I got a ride in a car by a cousin of mine who happened to be going back to California. And then he dropped me off somewhere because

02:00:08.680 - 02:00:46.420

He took the north route, and then I took a train, and that's how I got to Pecos, Texas. Let me back up and ask you about, to describe what a sandstorm is. Now a sandstorm, I can remember a lot of, I can remember the locusts that we had. There was a summer when the locusts came by the droves, and we would put newspapers or

02:00:46.800 - 02:01:05.500

towels or anything under the door because they would come into our bays. They were in everything, and if you went downtown in Sweetwater, all the streetlights were completely covered with these locusts. I think that was worse even than the—you know, you'd walk outside and you'd go

02:01:05.620 - 02:01:12.940

crunch, crunch. You'd be walking on these locusts. They were terrible. But a sandstorm was terrible.

02:01:13.120 - 02:01:44.020

And then also, I remember we were given a warning about a terrible windstorm coming up, and we were asked to report to the hangar where the PT-17s were, and we were asked to kind of lay across the wings to keep them down from this, because it was so windy, and they were afraid that all the aircraft would be flown over.

02:01:44.240 - 02:01:55.400

So we were laying on the wing, the lower wings, to keep them down. So there was a lot of wind there. Kelly: Right. Okay, now we'll go back to Pecos.

02:01:55.900 - 02:02:15.240

When you got to Pecos, to whom did you report? Beall: The CO, whose name I don't recall. We wore white gloves. We had calling cards that we had made, and we had learned how to salute, all the protocol

02:02:15.440 - 02:02:34.080

of the Air Force. So we had to report for duty, went to the commanding officer and reported for duty. EC: Were there other WASPs from your class? JB: Yes, there were two or three others from my class who were also stationed there, but

02:02:34.140 - 02:02:57.740

there were other WASPs from other classes that were already there. It was a twin-engine school, UC-78 and AT-17, which is a Cessna. And it had the nickname of "Bamboo Bomber," and that's because the wings were wood. "Double-breasted Cub," because it was fairly easy to fly, they said.

02:03:00.140 - 02:03:12.080

And "Useless '78." So it had a few nicknames. And what was your assignment? And my assignment was to be an engineering test pilot.

02:03:13.000 - 02:03:21.400

just a change. You're becoming very aware. Yes, she does. And I have to go to the bathroom.

02:03:21.420 - 02:03:29.140

That's all right. That's okay. I'm not important anymore. Okay.

02:03:33.760 - 02:03:40.660

I'm rolling. Okay. When you got to PECAS and were going to fly twin engines, did you have to go through some training then?

02:03:41.080 - 02:04:01.720

Yes, because we did not have twin-engine training in Sweetwater, Texas, though. We had to be checked out. So initially we would ride with the other WASPs, and then I was assigned to an instructor, and there were also two other male pilots that he was instructing.

02:04:02.500 - 02:04:16.340

And we flew for about maybe three or four hours and would take turns taking off and landing and so on and so forth. And then he would say, "Okay, you're fine." So that's what I did. Kelly: And then what was your job?

02:04:16.610 - 02:04:43.920

Beall: And then Mayor Rizzo was his name. He was in charge of the WASPs and giving us our assignments. So he would assign us various aircraft. Now sometimes they would do work on an engine, and it had to be flown in a prescribed manner for maybe three or four hours before they turned the aircraft over to a student.

02:04:45.260 - 02:05:05.700

And so we would have to fly it in that manner, and we would either fly it solo or if there was another WASP who didn't have an assignment, she would come along. And of course, they had facilities when you had to be up there that long, you know, sometimes you had to make a little trip to the room.

02:05:07.440 - 02:05:33.040

They had facilities for men to use something in the aircraft. You were supposed to use it and then write it up so that they would sanitize it when it came down. We were up flying and my friend, who was flying also with me, said she really was desperate,

02:05:33.420 - 02:05:49.080

absolutely desperate. I said, "Use that." So she used that and I had a lot of fun with her because anything that I asked her to do, she did because I had blackmailed her.

02:05:49.480 - 02:05:59.720

I said, "You have to write it up, you know." She said, "I'm not writing it up." I said, "You have to write it up." Oh, she was my slave from then on.

02:06:02.790 - 02:06:16.240

[Laughter] Kelly: Where did you have your meals at Pecos? Lane: You either ate at the Officers Club or—what we did was we had little apartments that we rented that were on the base, and they had kitchens.

02:06:17.200 - 02:06:33.200

So we could either cook at home or eat in town or eat at the officers club. How were you received at that base? Not only by the male pilots and officers, but by the females who were stationed there? We were welcomed.

02:06:34.620 - 02:07:04.860

We were a close group and we enjoyed each other's company. We had this wonderful mayor. I hope I'm not sounding like Pollyanna, but we were accepted by everyone. I think that when we would go to the officers club, they would have dances.

02:07:07.920 - 02:07:26.000

Some of the wives of some of the male officers were a little bit jealous, and so sometimes they would say to us, "We can't ask you to dance." But it was nothing overt. Kelly: Right.

02:07:27.020 - 02:07:49.800

What was—did you meet anybody special there? Betty: Well, I met one special guy and we kind of dated a little bit, but it was nothing serious. He wanted to marry me, but I did not want to marry him. Kelly: How were you notified that the WASPs were going to be disbanded?

02:07:51.080 - 02:08:22.340

We knew that the wasps were going to be disbanded before we left Sweetwater. Kelly: How were you told? Lowdermilk Honstein: I do not recall whether there was a formal meeting or anything like that, but we all knew because I think it was in June of 1944 when they had the hearing.

02:08:22.780 - 02:08:42.900

Remember the Ramsback Committee were the ones that led the fight in the House against us And they won by 19 votes. And of course, that was because of all of the negative publicity that we were getting that

02:08:43.000 - 02:09:02.380

was being put out by the male pilots and the male cadets that would not be going through flight training. They were saying things about us that just weren't true. And we were not as well organized

02:09:02.380 - 02:09:25.100

because General Arnold and Jacqueline Cochran thought that they would be able to get this through, to have us militarized, and they weren't. So at the last minute, there was not too much that we could do. We were scattered all over the country.

02:09:25.300 - 02:09:41.120

We were flying at different bases, and the only local place was Sweetwater, and you didn't have the majority of the pilots. They were just pilots in training. We learned about it when we were in Sweetwater.

02:09:41.780 - 02:10:07.400

We graduated in September, and I believe it was in June when they had this defeat. Was it the male military pilots that were so against us, or the male civilian instructors and that type? It was not the male military pilots that were against us, it was the instructors and the

02:10:07.400 - 02:10:24.900

would-be cadets that were against us. And that was because, see, they were needed in the infantry. They did not want to go to the infantry. So they said that they could do all of the jobs that we were doing, and that simply was

02:10:24.860 - 02:10:47.120

it true, because, well, the cadets had not been trained yet, number one. A lot of the civilian pilots did not meet the qualifications. Some of them were too old, and so they would not have been able to take our places at all. Some would, of course, but not all of them.

02:10:47.570 - 02:11:12.200

Kelly: Why do you think Congress sided with the male pilots? There were reports given out by them and there's stacks of information, detailed information about these various reports that said, for instance, that we were the million dollar glamour girls.

02:11:13.230 - 02:11:31.720

They only had us there because some general wanted a female co-pilot for whatever reasons and so forth. And these were the innuendos and the things that were being given and how we really weren't doing a good job.

02:11:32.600 - 02:11:52.800

And this information was fed to people like Walter Winchell. He was on the radio a lot and people always listened to Walter Winchell and other writers that were popular in the newspaper. So, they were being fed all of this information, which wasn't true.

02:11:54.780 - 02:12:28.820

And that's how the whole thing happened. When you were disbanded, did the air base do anything special for the WASP? When we were disbanded, the Pecos Air Force took a picture of us in front of a B-25. We were disbanded December 20, 1944, and January 1, 1945, the base was to become a B-25 base.

02:12:29.840 - 02:12:45.060

Except for eleven days, I would have been checked out in a B-25. So they had a little party for us, and they took our pictures and so forth. They were very nice. They were sad to see us go, and we were sad to go.

02:12:45.720 - 02:13:09.520

Kelly: How did you get from there? Where did you go? Bennette: One of the pilot officers on the base lived in California, and he had to leave. So this other WASP and I, I wanted to go to California and explore living in California,

02:13:09.680 - 02:13:35.060

maybe doing something career-wise in California. I wanted to stay in aviation. And so he drove us, he and another male pilot, and she and I, we drove to California. And he had a wonderful mother and stepfather, and they took us under their wing for about

02:13:35.230 - 02:13:53.360

a week. And they took us to every nightclub that there is, you know, the Brown Derby and all of these very expensive, very beautiful clubs. So they really entertained us beautifully.

02:13:54.220 - 02:14:23.900

And then I got a room. I was supposed to have met Eleanor Gunderson in L.A., and she never showed up. So I wanted to see if I could stay in the area, what's there for a female pilot. So I rented an inexpensive room and I started going to movie studios to see if any of them

02:14:23.900 - 02:14:48.120

would be interested in a picture about the wasps. And that's how I got into the movie studios. I would see different pictures being made and all that, meet different people. And they said, "Well, write a script."

02:14:49.460 - 02:15:05.080

I don't know anything about writing. I can't write a script. And after looking around and looking in the newspaper and seeing what kind of jobs were available, I could easily have gotten a secretarial job, but I didn't want that. And I decided

02:15:05.260 - 02:15:37.500

that California's beautiful, L.A.'s great, but unless you have a lot of money, you're not going to enjoy it. And I didn't have a lot of money. So I said, "I'm going home. At least I have friends back there and family and so forth, so I'm going to go home." And it just so happened that he was driving back from his leave, and so I got a ride to Pecos,

02:15:38.220 - 02:16:10.980

and then I took public transportation, and then I went to one of the airfields to see if they had anything, because we were allowed to hitchhike on the military aircraft, except that the pilot in command had to say whether or not you could get on the ship. So I went to, I forgot now exactly where I went to see if I could get a ride up to Newark,

02:16:11.180 - 02:16:34.740

New Jersey preferably, and I found one pilot was going there. But he made it very clear to me what he expected of me that evening. And so I said, "Thank you, but no thank you." So then I was still inquiring who was going up in that area.

02:16:34.920 - 02:16:46.120

Somebody else was going to Boston. No, Buffalo, New York. So I got a ride in a military aircraft to Buffalo, New York, and then I took the train down to East Orange.

02:16:47.060 - 02:17:03.200

I didn't have a car. In those days, you didn't have a car. You went by bus or, believe it or not, you hitchhiked. And you felt very safe in those days.

02:17:03.370 - 02:17:21.260

You hitchhiked places. I used to do a lot of hitchhiking. And there was a time when I had more time in the air than I had driving a car. My mother had a car, but I didn't have a car.

02:17:22.100 - 02:17:38.900

It was public transportation. But that's how I got home. And then, you want me just to continue? I really wanted to stay in flying.

02:17:39.180 - 02:17:55.620

I said, "Well," in the meantime, when we were in Pecos, Texas, I had written to one aircraft company, one airline after another, and I never heard "no" said in so many different ways. They did not want a woman pilot.

02:17:56.880 - 02:18:14.440

So, I said, "Well, you'll just have to make your own business of piloting." I got my instructor's rating. I went back out to Pennsylvania, took my instruction for my flight instructor's rating, and I got that.

02:18:15.120 - 02:18:38.140

And I started freelance instructing. And in the meantime, they were bringing surplus aircraft from the fields where they were stationed all over the country up to central locations. And there was one location in Syracuse, New York, where he would need pilots to go down

02:18:38.180 - 02:18:55.280

and pick up these various aircraft, like I would ferry Stearman's or PT-23s, PT-26s, all the primary aircraft. So I was freelance ferrying and getting my instructor's rating at the same time, and instructing and doing that.

02:18:56.320 - 02:19:25.480

And then they started manufacturing Cessnas and Aroncas after the war for civilian use. Now this is the first time in a long time that they're actually offering new aircraft. And I saw a need for ferrying the aircraft because Wichita, Kansas was where they made the Cessnas and it was in Ohio where they made the Arangas.

02:19:27.440 - 02:19:45.220

So I started a ferrying service. I would go to the distributor and he would tell me he wanted X number of aircraft brought in when they were ready and he would notify me. And I would do some of the ferrying and then I would hire other pilots.

02:19:46.260 - 02:20:14.300

So I had that little ferrying business going. And then the Cessna distributor asked me if I wanted a dealership of the Cessna. I said yes, and the first year that I had the dealership I sold twenty aircraft. And the reason I—I actually bought the last one myself, knowing I would somehow or other

02:20:14.300 - 02:20:34.880

Because they had a commission arrangement that if you sold, let's say, the first five aircraft, you would get ten percent commission. Then if you sold the next five aircraft, you would get fifteen percent commission retroactive, so that it went back to the first one.

02:20:35.320 - 02:20:51.280

And then if you sold the next five, then you would get twenty percent commission retroactive. So I bought the toy all within one fiscal year. I sold twenty airplanes in one fiscal year. I really worked hard to do that.

02:20:52.740 - 02:21:17.820

And while doing that, I was also free dance instructing still. And I was free dance instructing at Woodbridge Airport in Islin, New Jersey. And there was a flying service there, Rusko Flying Service. He wanted to sell his business, so there were eight other veterans and myself, and we decided

02:21:18.130 - 02:21:42.220

to buy the flight instruction business, so we bought that. So now I'm part of the flight school. Then the Garden State Parkway, they started building that, and that came along and took off the end of one of our runways, and that put us under CAA minimums.

02:21:43.560 - 02:22:03.820

So we couldn't fly out of Islin Airport anymore. We didn't own the airport, because we were leasing it. So what do we do? So we went to hire a lawyer and the lawyer said, "Well, first thing I want you to do

02:22:04.000 - 02:22:22.600

is all of you are veterans. All of you put on your uniform and go down to Trenton and demand to see the governor and tell the governor what the Department of Transportation has done to you, how they have put you out of business, and you want them to rectify it."

02:22:22.600 - 02:22:40.060

So we did. And we didn't get to see the governor, but we did get to see the lieutenant governor. And he sympathized with us and said he would see what he could do and so forth. So this whole thing wound up for about a whole year.

02:22:40.120 - 02:23:04.360

In the meantime, we had to move our operation to another airport where we had to pay rent. But it wasn't feasible for it to remain that way forever because it was another flight school there and we were not allowed to solicit any new students. So we were just working with the students that we had and marking time. But anyway, they asked me if I would

02:23:04.440 - 02:23:27.680

be the spokesman so I'm the one that made all the trips back and forth to Trenton to all these different meetings. And then I would report back to our attorney and he would tell us what to do next. And he said, and that s why I say when we did this thing with getting our veteran status in 1977, I d been there, done that, and knew exactly what Bruce was

02:23:27.780 - 02:23:54.560

saying when he said, You don t want a lawyer in here. You know, this is not. But at any rate, the case was finally won, but we had no legal standing because we were only the tenants, they had to actually negotiate with the owner. And the owner took whatever it was, you know, negotiated back and forth and won and so on and so forth.

02:23:55.140 - 02:24:18.220

We got our initial investment back, that's about all. We didn't make a lot of money, but we did get our initial investment back. And the owner, Mr. Shin, was extremely nice to us. He would not cooperate and pay lawyers or anything else for us, but he was very nice to us. After he got his settlement, he took all

02:24:18.360 - 02:24:35.080

nine of us out for an ice cream soda. Were you the only female in that group? Yes. So, from there, in the meantime, I had met Joe and we were dating.

02:24:36.260 - 02:24:48.360

Where did you meet Joe? Well, I was being interviewed at a radio program, and he was going to be interviewed two weeks later. So, they had asked him to come over, and I had heard about him.

02:24:48.600 - 02:25:14.840

I mean, that rich, handsome, owns an airplane pilot by the name of Joe Hadu. Wow! But I had never met him. He came over to the program and he listened to what we had to say.

02:25:15.720 - 02:25:31.780

And they discussed his program and then he suggested that we all go out for a drink, which we did. And then he said, and I had come to the program with them. I lived in East Orange at that time and they also lived in East Orange, so they had driven

02:25:31.920 - 02:25:41.200

me to the program. So he said, "May I take you home?" And teasingly I said, "Will it be safe?" And he said, "No."

02:25:41.200 - 02:26:03.240

I'm not going to go home with you." And I didn't, I'm the first woman ever said no to him. And then of course he called me for a formal date and so forth and we started dating. Actually Valentine's Day was our first date, but that's how I met Joe Hadu.

02:26:05.660 - 02:26:23.160

And then once you had to close the school? Then I was job searching again. And I was looking in the New York Times and there was an interesting sounding job. It wasn't flying, but it had to do with flying.

02:26:23.840 - 02:26:43.380

And it was Indemir Corporation in New York City. And what they did was they bought airplanes and airplane parts for India. And they had an airplane, which the boss had for his own use, but he told me I could fly it.

02:26:43.380 - 02:26:58.380

It was a Beach Bonanza. And so he said, you know, I could fly it anytime I wanted to. So I took that job. I was the executive secretary of Indemer Corporation in charge of purchasing and shipping and sending

02:26:58.480 - 02:27:13.220

and orders and so on and so forth. So it became a desk job, but I was flying. And Joe and I were dating and he was flying, and then he said, "No wife of mine is going to work."

02:27:14.220 - 02:27:36.000

So I had to leave that job and we were married in 1951. Tell me about your wedding. Jo is Hungarian, Hungarian Presbyterian, and of course there was always, before we got married, if we have children, how are the children going to be brought up?

02:27:37.920 - 02:27:54.500

Because we did not want a religious argument. I would not ask him to convert, and he would not ask me to convert. So my mother came up with a solution. She said the Unitarian religion is a very good religion.

02:27:56.000 - 02:28:15.480

So we both decided that sounds like a good compromise. We would bring our children up Unitarian, which we did. And then for your wedding? Well our wedding was a civil wedding, but we had Reverend Clee that we both had admired.

02:28:15.680 - 02:28:39.100

He was a very good man, very nice man. So he officiated, and we had it at the Suburban Hotel in East Orange, which had a beautiful room that they fixed up. And then we went into another room after the ceremony.

02:28:39.170 - 02:29:07.600

In the meantime, they took everything down that they had for the ceremony and put up tables. We had about 80 people at the wedding. You know, at that time, that was a nice number. Today that would be considered teeny tiny, but it was a nice number. It was, you know, the family and a few outside friends. We had a Hungarian band. I wore a wedding dress that

02:29:07.660 - 02:29:47.440

my mother bought in Best and Company, and it was, I would say, non-traditional. It was white satin, but it didn't have a long train. It was just a little bit above the ankle. And it was a comfortable dress. It was very pretty. It was very unusual. It had like a mesh up here and then points of satin. It was an unusual dress. And she made my hat.

02:29:47.630 - 02:30:14.580

I wore a hat with a veil. She made my hat and veil. And she wore a tuxedo. Best Mamaw wore a tuxedo. My sister was my maid of honor. And we had the Hungarian band and we would do Hungarian Sáras, all the Hungarian dances. It was fun. EC: You want to demonstrate?

02:30:16.660 - 02:30:32.540

LG: Like I said, we used to love to dance. EC: Then where did you go on your honeymoon? LG: Florida. Yes, we drove down to Florida. EC: Then after your honeymoon, where did you live?

02:30:32.560 - 02:31:04.380

We lived in East Orange, New Jersey in an apartment. And then I became pregnant, so we knew that we wanted to live in a house or something. At that time it was still difficult to rent places, and so we were fortunate because we We had, I think, a three-year lease, and this was like after a year and some months that

02:31:04.380 - 02:31:19.400

I became pregnant. So we had to sublet. The landlord said we could sublet. So we sublet our apartment, and until I found another place, we lived with his brother,

02:31:19.900 - 02:31:34.660

whose wife had recently died. And then I would get the paper and look in the paper and we finally found a place in West Orange that we could rent. It was a little house, it was a cute little house.

02:31:36.000 - 02:31:57.800

And then Joey was born from there and then we were looking to build a place. So we lived there until we found out where we wanted to build, which was in Livingston. And we stayed there for nineteen years. The children all were brought up there, went to school, and finished schooling there.

02:31:58.130 - 02:32:09.420

What was Jones'—what did he do with his airplane? Was that his business? No. He had a stagger-winged beachcraft, which was for pleasure.

02:32:09.740 - 02:32:34.660

However, he also had started an aerial advertising business. You know how they fly up and down the coast? So he owned six Stearman's that towed targets, and so he not only towed targets advertising his own business, but he towed targets advertising for other people as well.

02:32:35.800 - 02:32:57.980

And he had also purchased surplus AT-6s, and he sold those. And the staggering beach he had for his own pleasure. We would fly all over the country in that. That was a nice airplane.

02:32:58.910 - 02:33:07.940

Did he ever hire his wife to fly those targets? I wanted to tow those targets in the worst way. He said, "No, you're not. No, no."

02:33:07.940 - 02:33:29.000

He would never let me do that. When your children were growing up, how involved were you with their activities? I always made it a point to be home when they came home from school. When they were too young to go to school, I was home full-time.

02:33:31.680 - 02:33:58.280

I always wanted to make sure that I was home when they came home from school, so whatever outside activities I did, I always did it in the morning, making sure that I was there for them. And of course, you know, we followed what they did in school. I tried to help them. I wasn't like my mother. It didn't work to tell them it was their job. So, you know,

02:33:58.300 - 02:34:20.700

I would try to help them as best I could with any project. And one of our children, I think, was a little slow in learning, and I really, really worked hard with him and did everything I could to- Interviewer: Yeah.

02:34:21.220 - 02:34:43.580

Were they into sports? Johanna: Joe, he was when he went to college. And Steve was in Little League for a while, but then they weren't heavily into sports. But as far as flying is concerned, they would fly all over with us.

02:34:44.780 - 02:35:12.220

We stopped flying when we started having the children, and it wasn't until they were older and could participate with us that we went back to flying. So he sold his Staggerwing Beach, and then we didn't do flying for a number of years. And then we went back to flying and started owning aircraft.

02:35:13.600 - 02:35:35.820

I guess we owned about ten, twelve different types of aircraft in our years. And so we would take the children with us. And we would, one of the first airplanes we had was a restored Stearman. And they used to get a big kick out of, you know, flying with us, flying in the airplanes

02:35:36.080 - 02:35:52.360

and so forth. And when we decided that, you know, maybe you want to learn to fly, if we had an outside instructor we felt we'd be better around a mom or pop teaching them. get an outside instructor.

02:35:53.970 - 02:36:17.780

And unfortunately, our oldest son has an inner ear problem, and he just used to get airsick. So he could not pursue it too well, our middle son did. And our daughter started flying and then discovered boys. So there went the fly.

02:36:21.700 - 02:36:34.900

But Steve is the one who continued flying, but he has two young children now, so he has given it up for a while, and I'm sure he will go back to flying. He really likes it. Kelly: And what are your other two doing now?

02:36:34.920 - 02:36:57.360

Betty: Our daughter, she's the youngest one. She's with Novartis. That's a pharmaceutical company. And she is in charge of all of the oncology new drugs tests, you know, the tests that

02:36:57.380 - 02:37:23.780

they have to do to see whether or not they're proper. One person gets the drug, the other one gets a placebo. in charge of everything from the Mississippi River West through Hawaii. So she hires these various people in their territory to set up these areas, these doctors who will actually

02:37:23.920 - 02:37:42.200

conduct the tests. And she has to travel all over and she reports all of her findings, puts everything all together and gives it to the home office. Very responsible job. She's very good at it.

02:37:42.240 - 02:37:56.140

I don't know where she gets all of this technical language. She could be a doctor. She knows all that. Kelly: Once you were deactivated in the WASP, when is the next time that you became involved

02:37:56.400 - 02:38:25.680

with WASP? I guess I always was because they would have gatherings and every time they had a gathering when I was notified I was there. In 1975 they had asked me if I would run for president and they said it's strictly an

02:38:25.680 - 02:38:58.520

honorary position. You won't have to do much." Ha, ha. It was in Reno, Nevada, and at that time was when, well, previous to that, Bruce Arnold had come to the Sweetwater reunion and had pledged help to get us status as veterans. He thought he would be able to go to Washington, DC and have a little something tacked on to some other bill that they were sliding through

02:38:58.900 - 02:39:16.220

and that would be it. Well he found out it wasn't that easy, it wasn't going to happen, because he had been promised by Goldwater that Goldwater would help him. As you know, Senator Goldwater was also a pilot, a ferry pilot in World War II.

02:39:19.400 - 02:39:58.600

So now he said he would set up a committee. And he had Dora Doherty doing the history of the WASPs. He had Bird Granger doing the comparing what we did with what the military did. And he had Doris Tanner comparing us to other groups. And he was going to be the head and he was going to get all of this information. And my job was to get the organization together,

02:40:00.280 - 02:40:26.620

to get some money together, because I think at that time the Treasury was like about $150, something like that, to get the people active, to get them to send in all of this information. And we had a wonderful newsletter editor, Betty Cross, and so I would do a lot of writing up all of the stuff that we needed and so forth, and we would get the newsletters out.

02:40:26.780 - 02:40:56.200

And then we had Ziggy Hunter, who had been a female instructor at Sweetwater. She took on the job of locating people and she had access to an 800 number from a company in Dallas or Fort Worth. She was calling all over the country trying to locate people, trying to get them back

02:40:56.260 - 02:41:14.540

in to do things and so forth. He talked me into trying to get an 800 number. And so we had Pratt & Whitney out here, and I talked to them, and they arranged that I could use their 800 number through my phone right here.

02:41:15.920 - 02:41:36.080

But he made me promise not to ever tell anybody, because he says, "Every organization is going to want to use our 800 number." So I had that for a couple of years, which was extremely helpful because I was calling all over the country trying to get information from the different WASPs.

02:41:36.080 - 02:41:51.480

You know, you'd hear, "Well, this one knows that, and that one knows this," and so forth. So we were getting all of this information, feeding it to Byrd Granger to make into this book, which, as I told you before, has come out copyrighted in her name, which never should

02:41:51.520 - 02:42:14.660

have been. We had asked her to copyright it in the name of the WASP organization, but she didn't. And through his contacts and his perseverance, and I'm talking about Bruce Arnold, the son of General Arnold, we were finally granted recognition as veterans of World War II.

02:42:15.800 - 02:42:39.080

November 23, 1977, signed into law by President James Carter. But that was three years of midnight oil, writing. At that time, we had no internet. We had no email.

02:42:40.660 - 02:43:22.700

I would have to send copies, so everything I typed, I had to have the carbon copies in there and typing it. Had to get into publicity. We were on TV programs, including To Tell the Truth. We were on newscasts. We would get the news media to come into our, we had them at the reunion in Sweetwater in Hot Springs, Arkansas. And we had them, I don't know

02:43:22.730 - 02:43:47.900

whether they were in Colorado Springs. That was another thing. Colorado Springs, that was in '77. So we had, the law had been passed. No, that was in '78. We had the law past and so forth. And that was the last reunion that I presided over as President. And we wanted to do something for Barry Goldwater because he had done so much for us. So we

02:43:47.920 - 02:44:09.860

went to his aid and we said, "What can we do for him? What can we give him?" So he came back to us and he said, "He wants to be the Speaker at your next reunion." I mean here this man is being asked to speak all over the country and he wanted to come and He had his own airplane.

02:44:10.380 - 02:44:26.460

I don't know whether he was piloting it at the time. He flew in the afternoon, stayed for the banquet, gave his speech, and flew back to Washington, because he had to be there the next day for us. He did that for us.

02:44:27.580 - 02:44:36.180

Do you think that's on tape somewhere? Change the film. Do you think that speech is on tape? No, not that I know of.

02:44:38.760 - 02:44:56.560

files, which I will give to TWU one day. Let's go back and tell me, once you got these three or four different WASPs to do their reports, what did you do with those reports that they got together? They all went to Bruce Arnold.

02:44:57.200 - 02:45:17.320

And then what happened? And then we were asked to lobby our representatives. And this is where that big album came in, and also just come to Washington. And then, because I think you probably have the pictures, don't you, of the two hearings

02:45:17.500 - 02:45:22.740

and how many WASPs were there? Don't you have those, Nancy? Nancy Finkelstein I have one on the stairs.

02:45:24.380 - 02:45:34.220

The one in front of Goldwater's desk. You don't have the one where we gave them 22,000 petition signatures? Kelly: Yeah, on the stairs. Lane: Of the Capitol?

02:45:34.220 - 02:45:46.280

Kelly: Right. Lane: Well, the other one is on the stairs of the Senate hearing room. Well, I've got them here. Kelly: But who lobbied?

02:45:47.760 - 02:45:57.460

Who lobbied? Individual WASPs? Lane: Individual WASPs and Bruce Arnold. He's the one that got this through.

02:45:57.480 - 02:46:11.800

You know, he knew a lot of the people and like he would tell me to come down to Washington and go meet with Cleland, who was the head of the Veterans Administration. And they were against us.

02:46:12.780 - 02:46:30.580

And Cleland is that amputee? So, I had a face-to-face meeting with him. And while we were trying to convince him that we should be veterans, and I had a face-to-face meeting with him, and he has no legs.

02:46:31.120 - 02:46:50.280

And the way he gets around, and the way he talks, you forget that immediately. He was something, and he did not want us. Kelly: Why? I do not remember what his exact reasons were.

02:46:52.740 - 02:47:12.020

See a lot of the senators and so forth said they had a whole long list of different people that they would have to bring in if we got it, like the merchant marines. We said, "The merchant marines? Sure that was dangerous what they were doing, but look at how much they were getting paid."

02:47:13.720 - 02:47:30.880

And, oh, they had a whole long list of people that they said, "If we give it to you, we have to give it to them." The only good thing that we got through with our bill was the fact that the World War I telephone, women telephone operators would be recognized.

02:47:31.600 - 02:47:49.280

After all those years, they were in the front trenches being shot at just along with the the soldiers, and they were not recognized as veterans or given any veteran status at all. So, finally, the two, I guess, that are left living.

02:47:50.500 - 02:48:11.500

Kelly: When you went before Congress, explain to me how you went. Did you go first before a subcommittee? Lowry: No, we went before the Veterans Affairs Committee. They had a table, just the way you see it on TV, and those who were going to testify

02:48:12.960 - 02:48:35.620

would sit at that table. So I testified at the Senate hearing, and so did Doris Tanner, and so did Dora Doherty, and so did Bruce Arnold, and so did Barry Goldwater, and so did Lindy Boggs and Margaret Heckler.

02:48:36.180 - 02:49:01.540

Kelly: How did you decide who would testify? Steele: Bruce decided all of that. Kelly: Tell me what it was like to testify before Congress. Steele: Well, I do not have much like for Washington, D.C., and politics there, because

02:49:01.940 - 02:49:21.900

that is all it is. And what it's like to testify before them, it's like talking to you now. You tell them, and hopefully you have knowledge and good memory, and you might even have a lot of stuff written that you read to them, and then they will ask you questions and you

02:49:21.960 - 02:49:40.300

will answer them to the best of your ability. But what they say is, you know, you've got to walk the halls. So you try to catch different senators, congressmen, anyone, and talk to them on an individual face-to-face basis.

02:49:41.820 - 02:50:13.280

And at one point we had a wine tasting thing. They have a room downstairs and you hire the caterer, whoever does it, and they let it be known amongst senators and House of Representatives that there is going to be a WASP wine tasting thing at the end of the day on such and such a day. So we had one of those and we would

02:50:13.320 - 02:50:39.800

try to talk to them individually and answer any questions that they might have. So this This is all lobbying, plus the fact that a lot of telephoning, a lot of letter writing, a lot of factual information giving, answering questions. It takes a lot of people.

02:50:40.700 - 02:50:55.460

It's not all done by one person. But directing it, and now Bruce Arnold let us use his office and his 800 number. Kelly: What was his job? Lowry: He was a lobbyist.

02:50:57.300 - 02:51:08.360

I forgot the name of the company, but it was a French company. So he was a lobbyist, which is why he knew all of these people. He knew the ropes. He knew how to do it.

02:51:09.620 - 02:51:26.560

So he was doing all of this. He almost got fired because he was spending so much time on the WASPs. The bosses upstairs said, "Hey, what's going on here?" So that we had to get out of that office.

02:51:27.620 - 02:51:48.260

He arranged for us to have a rent-free small office in the Army Navy Club, which is a very exclusive place in Washington, D.C. He signed that, because he gave us cards that we could go upstairs and use their dining room and their facilities.

02:51:49.040 - 02:52:02.000

And he had to sign that if we did not pay our bill, he would. So he did a tremendous amount of work for us. Kelly: How many days? Did you testify one day?

02:52:02.350 - 02:52:19.360

Landau: Well, yes. It was a one day with the Senate and a one day with the House. But I would come down from New Jersey and spend two or three weeks at the headquarters. Lucia Wise was in the headquarters office, and Lee Wheelwright was there.

02:52:19.860 - 02:52:37.560

And then there were other WASPs in the area, and they would come in and help in the office with the correspondence and with the albums and with things that were right there. Kelly: How long did this—over what period of time? from '75 to '77.

02:52:38.460 - 02:53:11.120

Kelly: Why was it important to you that the WASP be given veteran status? Betty: Well, it was not important to get veteran status for something monetary that you could get, because at all of our ages of life at that time, we were all pretty well established. There were some, I'm sure, that could have used money, but I would say that most of us

02:53:11.420 - 02:53:29.080

weren't looking for that. We were looking for recognition. We had been promised something, and it wasn't given. And so it was important for me because I felt we were trained military, we should be recognized

02:53:29.240 - 02:53:47.140

as trained military. We were told we were going to be military. We had to sign that we would stay in the program. So it was extremely important to me that we be recognized as veterans of World War II.

02:53:48.640 - 02:54:02.940

Kelly: Where were you when the Congress took the vote on that bill? McMillan: I was in Livingston, New Jersey, waiting for the phone call. Kelly: Who called you? McMillan: Bruce called to tell me.

02:54:02.940 - 02:54:19.720

Do you remember what he said? He said, "We did it. We did it." I was going to go down, and I debated, because I had a lot going on in the family at that

02:54:19.800 - 02:54:41.160

time. You could be in just so many places at one time. By that time, had you closed the office since you were through lobbying and stuff? Steele: No, the office remained there for a while.

02:54:42.310 - 02:54:53.900

I did not actually close the office. As I said, it was Lucille and Lee Wheelwright. So I do not know. I would like to know what happened to all of those records, as a matter of fact.

02:54:54.300 - 02:55:22.900

How long was it after the Senate, I mean after it passed both houses? It passed the Senate and the House. How long after that before it was signed into law? Trying to remember the agency that had to do, I know it was Antonio Shays with, I guess

02:55:22.660 - 02:55:40.900

it was the Veterans Affairs, it probably—well, it took a couple of years before they finally enacted it. You know, Washington, D.C. had two speeds, slow and slower. So I mean, the whole thing was passed, but until they got around to doing the paperwork

02:55:41.180 - 02:55:58.720

and deciding how it was going to be and what we were going to be, and I do not know what they were debating about, but whatever it was, it took them a long time. So it was not actually until I think '79. Were you privileged to be there when President Carter signed that bill?

02:55:59.480 - 02:56:10.900

No. Bruce Arnold asked if I could be there, and he did not want anyone there. Jimmy Carter did not want anyone there. But he had asked.

02:56:11.000 - 02:56:17.380

He wanted me to come down for the signing. So there was no WASP there? No. Bruce wanted me to be there.

02:56:18.620 - 02:56:36.700

Do you know how President Carter felt about that particular bill? Was there any indication? Steele: I really do not know, except that the fact that he did not want someone there indicates something to me, but I do not know why he did not want anyone there.

02:56:36.830 - 02:57:01.000

Kelly: How did you celebrate? I probably wanted to burn every piece of paper in the house. I did not really celebrate. When you have been through something for so long, it is just this huge sigh of relief,

02:57:05.300 - 02:57:33.420

other than probably a good dinner with Joe, I do not know. Well, I'll say thank you. Thank you so much. Once you were through with that legislation, then when did your term of office expire, and then what did you do? I was there until '78, as far as the WASFA is concerned, and I remained as past president

02:57:33.580 - 02:57:59.760

on the board of directors. So I would attend meetings and so forth. But it was made clear to me that I was no longer needed, let's put it that way. Kelly: And as of this time in your life, how involved are you with the WASP organization? I guess I'm considered active.

02:58:00.420 - 02:58:21.440

We go to air shows and we try to have representation. I have this big display that I think you have seen from time to time that we drag around with us to different functions or loan them to use up in Oshkosh or wherever they want to use it.

02:58:22.640 - 02:58:48.500

And I'll get in touch with Schutze, who runs our stores, Schutze Rentals, and she will send me various things to sell. And sometimes, like at Sun and Fun, Tico, which is up in Titusville, Florida, will give us gratis a table, because they just like the presence of the WASP there.

02:58:48.800 - 02:59:12.940

So we will sell items and then we turn the money over to stores. And I'm on the nominating committee a couple of times and help out wherever I can. People send for information and I always try to respond and encourage the young people. And from time to time I'm asked to speak here, there, or the other place.

02:59:13.760 - 02:59:29.740

I could probably do it every week, but I have other things to do. Kelly: In the conventions, do you attend all the conventions? Becky: Yes, I think I have attended every one of them. I cannot remember one that I have not.

02:59:31.590 - 02:59:49.300

Kelly: Outside of those activities, how do you spend your time now? Well, four times a week I go to the spa and I do cardio and some weight lifting machines and so forth. I work out for about an hour and a half each time.

02:59:50.820 - 03:00:15.500

And then the other three days or two days I play golf and I'm writing a book. When I was in service, I wrote letters home, and my mother saved those letters. I dragged them from residence to residence in a box, and finally got around to reading them.

03:00:16.980 - 03:00:35.700

TWU got wind of this and said they wanted them. So they had the original letters, and they transcribed them and sent me the transcription. And I said, "Well, I'll put it in a book form." So they were going to put it in a book form, but they were just going to put the letters.

03:00:36.920 - 03:00:55.660

And I said, "Well, I have a lot of pictures, so pictures are always fun to look at, so I want to put the pictures with it." Well, they don't have the facilities for that, so they suggested that I look into publishing something.

03:00:57.380 - 03:01:21.460

So I've been looking into that and I have a good friend that I play golf with who is going to be my, who is my editor. I said, "Rita, what I want you to do is to read these and read what I have written about the letters," because now I'm trying to lead up to why I wrote that letter or what was

03:01:21.460 - 03:01:48.800

happening. And I want you to tell me truthfully do you find this interesting or is it boring? You know me well enough to just give me the truth. So she's been reading them and she keeps writing enhance, enhance, enhance, so she's got me writing more and more and more. And then we're going to make the big decision what to do. We'll take it to some local publishers

03:01:48.800 - 03:02:03.980

or printers rather, and see what they have. My biggest problem, and I have spoken to someone by the name of Nancy Parish about this before, is inserting the pictures into the text.

03:02:05.160 - 03:02:17.200

And this is when everything on the computer goes haywire. And it's picture's supposed to be here and it's over there someplace. And the wording has disappeared.

03:02:18.040 - 03:02:31.020

And all these awful things keep happening. So I have finally reached the conclusion that I am going to have to get a professional to insert pictures and do all that kind of stuff. So that is where we are right now.

03:02:31.180 - 03:02:48.000

But then in the meantime, I have other projects like the pond next door that are taking my time, so I really have to get with it. Is the pond going to dry up? No.

03:02:49.960 - 03:03:04.660

But the developer will not dry up either, and he's the one pushing. He wants to build. He wants to fill that in and build. Why did you move to Florida?

03:03:05.720 - 03:03:15.640

We like the weather. What year did you move here? We have been coming to Florida for years. As a matter of fact, we used to come down in the winter

03:03:17.240 - 03:03:33.660

and then go back up north in the summer. But after the children were all married and out of the house, we didn't like the idea of keeping a house up north because it wasn't working out.

03:03:36.300 - 03:03:53.340

So, I would say we've been coming to Florida. We even had a little condominium down here in 1977. That whole time, you know, we had, because I would be spending some time down here

03:03:53.340 - 03:04:06.600

and some time up north. So, we've been coming to Florida from the '70s on and off. But now it's, you know, strictly full time. Tell me about your grandchildren.

03:04:08.540 - 03:04:21.780

Well, one just got her driver's license. Uh-oh, trouble. But I'm told she's a very good driver. And when her grades are not up to where they're supposed to be,

03:04:23.200 - 03:04:41.100

she can't drive. And this happened when in April, beginning of April-- yes, beginning of April. We were up there for, well they live in Richmond, Texas, which is outside of Houston.

03:04:42.340 - 03:05:02.420

And she, Diana and her husband, and our oldest son, Jeff, and his significant other, like scuba diving. So every year they go away some place for a week and we go to Texas to see that things are in order.

03:05:02.820 - 03:05:29.540

going to Texas to be babysat. We used to go over there to babysit, but now it's the other way around. The last time when we were there, she was grounded, couldn't drive the car. Tried to get Grandma and Grandpa to let her drive that car. We said, "We can't do that. We're not allowed." So, she's sixteen and the other one will be

03:05:29.420 - 03:05:48.560

15 in May this month. And they are delightful girls, very, very delightful girls. I have taken them to -- we had them at the Sweetwater reunion and I had made them little uniforms.

03:05:49.280 - 03:06:13.800

They had the little black ties and the white shirt and the insignia on their sleeve, a little set of wings, and I made them little skirts out of the same color fabric as this, and taught them how to salute, and everybody thought they were just adorable. Oh yeah, and on the back, Schutze had these things that you could iron on.

03:06:14.260 - 03:06:28.500

It said, "My grandma flew in World War II." But now they're too big to wear those uniforms. >> Are those the only two grandchildren? >> No, and then our son, Steve, has two little girls.

03:06:28.780 - 03:06:44.820

They had a little bit of a problem conceiving, but finally did, and one is six and the other is five. So, they're still quite young, and they live in New Jersey. And we see them quite -- as a matter of fact,

03:06:44.820 - 03:07:00.000

they were here for Christmas. The whole Christmas week they were here. So, we see the whole family. they usually all try to come down over the Fourth of July weekend, because they go scuba

03:07:00.060 - 03:07:20.960

diving right from here. So, we find places for them to stay. Some stay here, some stay elsewhere. What, of all the things you've ever done, aside from your children, what is the one thing that you're most proud of?

03:07:24.380 - 03:08:05.040

Well, proud of? Yeah, I'm trying to work you in. Well, I mean, if you're going to ask me about the best thing I've ever done in my life, it's marrying Joe Hadu. But You asked me what is the proudest. I think helping the lost become veterans is the thing I'm the most proud of. Good answer.

03:08:08.850 - 03:08:25.700

You got to come sit and say hello. Yeah, I'm on. I'm good. I would, let me know when you're ready. I'm ready. I would like to introduce you to my wonderful, wonderful husband, Joseph Haydew.

03:08:26.700 - 03:09:00.600

How many years? How many years have we been married? 52. 52. I want to know what qualities she had that made you fall in love with her. Don't tell them what I think you're going to tell them. What do you answer when people say, when Strom Thurmond asked you, how come Senator Strom Thurmond asked you, how come you married this lovely lady, what did you say to him?

03:09:01.760 - 03:09:17.660

I forget. She had one reason and I had the other. What did you say to Strom Thurmond when he said to you, "What made you marry this lovely lady?"

03:09:17.660 - 03:09:30.400

What did you say to him? What did you say to him? I forgot already. I had one reason and she had the other.

03:09:33.020 - 03:09:45.000

Alright, I'm going to ask you, wait a minute, wait a minute, I'm going to ask you once more. When Strom Thurmond said to you... Oh, Strom Thurmond. Oh, now I recognize... Okay. Senator Strom Thurmond said to you,

03:09:46.540 - 03:10:02.820

"What made you marry this lovely woman? What did you say to him?" I said, uh... She had one reason, and I said it. I had one reason. I don't know what I said. I forget already.

03:10:03.260 - 03:10:24.020

She had one reason and I had the other. The other night, we went to bed. So the first thing we were laying there, and she says, "You know, Pop," she says, "you used to give me a little kiss every night before we went to bed."

03:10:24.020 - 03:10:40.340

So I rolled over and gave her a little kiss. About a half a minute later, she says, "You know, Papa, you used to give me a little hug and a squeeze." I'm right there, so I roll over, give her a hug and a squeeze.

03:10:43.160 - 03:11:04.360

A little while later, she says, "You know, you used to nibble on my ear and bite my ear." I start getting out of bed. She says, "Where are you going?" Now, did I say enough for tonight?

03:11:05.140 - 03:11:15.320

Now, I want you to tell the thing about what she made you. She made you a millionaire? Oh, yes, she made me a millionaire. Before I married her, I was a multimillionaire.

03:11:24.800 - 03:11:40.520

What did you tell me on our first date? First formal date, what did you tell me? Oh, that's right. You know, I told you, now, I've been out with a few girls before, but I was thirty-four

03:11:40.600 - 03:12:08.360

years old, I think, or anything, and I told her, "We met at a radio station, we visit." Yeah, but this, our date was at the log-in, when we went dancing. Valentine's Day. Oh yeah, no, I told you that. No. Oh yeah, we went there, that's right. I told you, "You know, I'm gonna marry you." She says, "I didn't say anything."

03:12:09.480 - 03:12:30.600

"Did you tell me, 'Boy, you got some line.'" No, I thought to myself, "This guy's got some line." but I was too polite in those days to say it. - No, but we had a great life together. Not only that, but she really helped me financially too.

03:12:31.680 - 03:12:41.760

I had a meatpacking business and it was a big business. We had the largest meatpacker in New Jersey. And who do you think became the president? The kid.

03:12:44.760 - 03:12:57.980

We used to make 250,000 pounds of sauces a week, 100,000 pounds of frankfurters. We boned out 10,000 boiled hams. I used to cut out 4,000 hogs.

03:12:58.560 - 03:13:09.080

And in the beef house, we used to kill 15 head of cattle a week. And the railroad side, he killed 35 cars of meat. - My goodness.

03:13:09.860 - 03:13:15.900

Did you start this business from scratch? - No, my father did. - Okay. My father started a business.

03:13:20.940 - 03:13:32.340

I had four brothers beside myself. I was the fifth boy. They worked for an outfit by the name of Fink & Sons. One was in charge of manufacturing.

03:13:34.300 - 03:13:49.840

Bill had a route, and Sam was in charge of the hard-killing department. But my father left me in his will. He died when he was 63 years old. He left me ten shares.

03:13:51.960 - 03:14:11.300

He said, "If Joey shows interest in the business, when he's 21 years old, make him an equal partner." That's the way it worked out. Then I finally got to a point where the years had passed by, and I was the one who started

03:14:11.400 - 03:14:36.080

to run the business. I was in contact with all the meat buyers like Grand Union, Safeway, A&P, Mayfair Supermarkets. I knew all these people personally. I used to play golf with him, you see, because I was a good golfer, too.

03:14:37.280 - 03:14:55.320

So one time, I'm playing with Angelo, and I beat him for 20 bucks. So my manager, the sales manager in the Hagen department one day, he was stuck with 200 bucks of pork loins. He couldn't sell them.

03:14:55.430 - 03:15:08.640

You know, the market was flooded with pork loins. I called up my buyer from Grand Union, which was Angelo Pastore. "Angelo, this is your friend, Hedo." "Friend my A," he says.

03:15:10.660 - 03:15:24.140

"You took twenty bucks from me. When do I get it back?" He says, "And what are you stuck with?" I said, "Angelo, I got two hundred bucks of ball coins."

03:15:25.080 - 03:15:35.060

"All right, I'll send it to you." I noticed where to send it. That was the end of the 200 box. That's how well I knew these dear friends of mine already.

03:15:37.240 - 03:15:47.220

And that was great. I want you to tell me about flying. Was she the better pilot? She was a good pilot.

03:15:48.080 - 03:16:01.600

Bee was a good pilot. Do tell me about your flying. Well, I used to instruct primary flying. And I went through the training part, because I went in there with -- he had to have 200

03:16:01.760 - 03:16:33.720

hours, and I had 200 hours of flying. I was in flight until 1937. And I went through the routine. And the final place was down at Randolph Field to be the instructor, see? And I passed through that. They sent me to Camden, South Carolina, to instruct the cadets. And there I was there for three years, instructing cadets and steermen. But there was BT-13s on the

03:16:33.720 - 03:16:44.720

field and AT-6s, you know, the advanced trainers, and the instructors allowed to fly them. So I flew them both. Right. What was your favorite aircraft to fly? The stearmen.

03:16:45.060 - 03:16:49.300

Stearmen. I loved that stearmen. B, what was your favorite airplane? Stearman.

03:16:49.520 - 03:17:01.880

Stearman. Yeah, that was a great airplane. That was a fun airplane. Of all the students I ever had, none ever got ground loop. And that was a ground looping airplane.

03:17:02.160 - 03:17:09.580

Right. You know. Right. Because I took them out to auxiliary field number three, and he says, "We're going to taxi now."

03:17:10.080 - 03:17:31.140

You know, I got the throttle. See? So I gave him the throttle. When they started to go, I was on controls already. Then they had this problem in the controls. After maybe eight, ten hours, and none of them ever ground them.

03:17:31.660 - 03:17:46.740

Kelly: That's great. Joe, let me back up and ask you about playing baseball. Tell us about that. Well, I was a good ballplayer, you know. What position? Natural. Shortstop at second base.

03:17:49.180 - 03:18:21.680

And the coach, Phil Marvel was his name, Columbia High School. I loved to play football too, but he says, "No football for you. You don't want me on his team," because because he got too much experience and too much natural ability in baseball. So he wouldn't let me get hurt. So in the summertime, he always took me down to Delaware. And his father

03:18:21.780 - 03:18:43.260

lived there, and on a farm it was. And there was a league down there. I forget the name Well, anyhow, I used to play in the Eastern Shore League in the summertime. And then, what do you call it, came to our home where we played baseball. Ed Brannick was the name, I think.

03:18:43.380 - 03:18:56.080

He had a manager, the Giants. And that day, I had a good day. I hit two home runs, a double and two singles, you know, see? I hit five times at bat.

03:18:57.260 - 03:19:17.040

And that's how they invited me to play with the New York Giants, to practice with them. So I went down to Pensacola, Florida, where their training depot. And I trained with all the trainees, the whole sphere of training, I'll say through that. And I went with them on the road trip a little bit.

03:19:17.700 - 03:19:34.440

Yeah, we played against the Cleveland Indians and the Chicago Cubs. I played against those teams. And then we went to New York. But New York, I didn't play too much because last year they had won the pennant and fellas

03:19:34.520 - 03:19:54.940

like Dick Bartel were there, Whitey Whitehead, Sambo Leslie was first base, Travis Jackson, you couldn't break in a lineup because those guys were good. I mean, they were excellent. The only time I got into ballgame was through pinch hitting or pinch running because I was

03:19:54.940 - 03:20:04.120

fast. So he says, "Joe," he comes up there one day, he says, "Joe," he says, "listen, we want you to play every day. We think you've got great potential."

03:20:05.020 - 03:20:19.480

See? So we went to go into -- I remember we were slipping a little bit down to -- where, Bizzy? Do you remember? I'm trying to remember.

03:20:20.220 - 03:20:50.420

Well, anyhow, down to the league down in the south. I played down there. I played about three weeks there, steady. So I became friends with the guys, because they were all ballplayers. I said to the cook, "Jimmy, how long are you here?" He says, "Eight years." He could hit the ball and he could throw the

03:20:50.420 - 03:21:23.320

and he was good. Right away my mind started, eight years? So there's another fellow named Anderson, I says, "Billy, how long you here?" He was here six years, and he was a good catcher. And I was playing second base. So I says, "This is not for me." Because to meet back at this. That was the end of the baseball.

03:21:24.160 - 03:21:43.740

Did you ever consider staying in the Air Force and being career? No. I had too much to go to. I had a business to go to. My father left me shares and all that. Tell me how proud you are of the young lady sitting next to you.

03:21:44.780 - 03:22:03.660

Well, I'll tell you, her cooking is wonderful. He must be hungry. She raised three beautiful children. But let her tell you that kind of stuff.

03:22:04.400 - 03:22:20.000

You asked me to sit down here and talk to me about me, not... I don't want to get in an argument with her. By the way, we've been married 52 years, and this is going to be hard for you to believe. I never had an argument in my married life.

03:22:20.760 - 03:22:34.880

Never. Like he said, his memory's slipping a little. Let me ask you this, Joe. If you could talk to your great-grandchildren, or children that you will never know, to encourage

03:22:35.040 - 03:23:00.020

them or to motivate or inspire them, give them words of encouragement, what would you like to say to them? Hall: Well, number one, you've got to be talented in the first place. I would tell them that—well, I already told them that, "Listen, now, don't start getting

03:23:00.180 - 03:23:24.920

foolish at your fifteen and sixteen and seventeen years when you're older. you wait, you could at least go with a boy for at least one year so you get to know him. And I told him, "If he's fresh and he hits you or he slaps you or he's nasty to you or he takes the needle or he's in prison, see, the hook, out." You know what I mean,

03:23:25.040 - 03:23:40.720

see? And I said, "Your best years to get married is like your grandmother did when When she was 28 years old, she said, "She's been around a few years, that's the time to get married. If you meet the right person and if you don't, don't get married."

03:23:43.360 - 03:24:00.120

And that's what I tell them. I think that's most important thing I told them. You know, their future and their life. Not only that, but B and I already, we sent them plans and the money and everything.

03:24:00.160 - 03:24:14.000

is all set there for them to go to college. How important do you think education is? I never went to college. Bee went to college.

03:24:15.040 - 03:24:27.160

Good common sense. I don't know where I was when I married her, no common sense. Well, but today you need a more formal education. It's different.

03:24:27.160 - 03:24:30.860

It's different times today. You're right. It's different. It's different.

03:24:31.120 - 03:24:44.880

I remember that. Education is extremely important. I remember in 1941, I bought a Buick convertible, beautiful white car. It was a white one with a black top on a red upholstery.

03:24:45.440 - 03:25:06.220

I paid $1,245 for that car in 1941. That's before the war, though. And today, the same car sales are about $35,000, $40,000, so that's a difference. Now, is that enough interview?

03:25:07.820 - 03:25:15.620

[Laughter] We thought we were fooling you into thinking that— [Audio cut] Later on, it's going to be nighttime.

03:25:16.640 - 03:25:29.500

[Laughter] Well, Joe, you've made our day. There you go. I made their day, but you made it before I did.

03:25:30.440 - 03:25:37.160

Thank you so much. Thank you, girls. You were very, very nice. You're wonderful. You're a great interviewer. Yes, she is.

03:25:38.180 - 03:25:50.140

Unbelievable. She's great at answering them. I don't even have to ask. I'm looking at your bracelet. Those are a set of wings. Yeah.

03:25:50.940 - 03:26:11.100

Those are command pilots. what my husband was. Isn't that nice. How about that? Now how did you meet him? That's another story. I got to leave you guys. We may video. Don't I get paid for this? Yeah. The check is in the mail, Joe.

03:26:14.220 - 03:26:25.320

And you know what that means. Yeah. Check's in the mail. I will send you a picture though. I'll send you a picture. Still pictures. And you want to move this on while you're up?

03:26:25.980 - 03:26:37.720

No, that's fine. She won't get it. It's not in my shot. Okay, let me ask you. What do you feel the legacy of the WASP will be?

03:26:38.140 - 03:27:05.020

Is this running? I blew my nose. That's a good question. The Legacy of the Wasps. I think it will bring to attention the fact that women have always

03:27:05.480 - 03:27:30.520

done things that were unusual or that they were told, "Well, women don't do those things." And I think it goes back even further than the wasps, because if you look into history, even wasn't it the Civil War where there was a woman who was manning the guns because her husband was killed?

03:27:31.800 - 03:28:00.980

So yeah, it was, it was during the Civil War. And so people, the legacy would be that there is nothing that people can't do if they put their minds to it and if they really want to do it. I don't think that you always have to be born with an ability.

03:28:01.280 - 03:28:22.440

I think if you have a desire to do something, you can train yourself, you can push yourself, you can make yourself do things if you really have the desire. And I think our legacy is going to point out that these women had the desire to do something and they did it and they accomplished it.

03:28:23.580 - 03:28:40.660

And this is the way it's always going to be and this, quite frankly, is always the way it was. can be put down for just so long, and then you're going to surface. What is your opinion of Jacqueline Cochran?

03:28:42.240 - 03:29:18.160

I think Jacqueline Cochran is, I admire her. She is the kind of a person that I like. She is very direct. I mean, you ask a question and you don't get danced around. You'll get an answer. She is forceful. At times she's not the most diplomatic. This may have gotten her into some trouble here and there. But she accomplishes things and she is very talented.

03:29:19.100 - 03:29:43.620

And the fact that she broke the sound barrier, if you read how she trained herself to sleep a certain time, wake up at a certain time, and got herself in the proper mood to be able to do these things at the time when she had to do them. She was a very determined person.

03:29:44.380 - 03:30:08.440

I had the pleasure of co-piloting for her when she flew in, when Marty Weil first called one of the first meetings of the WASP together after we were disbanded and we had lots of meetings and so forth. And then the organization kind of fell by the wayside and then Marty Weil tried to get

03:30:08.540 - 03:30:32.960

things started again. So she had a pre-99 meeting whereby she invited as many WASPs as she could get a hold of and also invited Jacqueline Cochran, and I think this was in Cleveland, Ohio. And Jacqueline came with her Lockheed Lodestar, which she loved.

03:30:33.820 - 03:30:49.560

She also had a male co-pilot with her. And she got up at the meeting and we had a meeting and she gave us all a little set of wings and so forth. And she said, "If anybody is flying back to the New York area and they want a ride,

03:30:49.980 - 03:31:06.880

I'm leaving tomorrow morning at such and such a time." So I was going back and so was another gal. So we were there, ready, got in her airplane, and after we were airborne, she said, "Do you fly?"

03:31:06.880 - 03:31:15.160

me and I said, "Yes, I'm still flying." She said, "Would you like to co-pilot?" And I said, "Yes." So she said to the male co-pilot, "You, out."

03:31:15.280 - 03:31:36.860

So he got in the back, I got in the seat, and I was flying. And I guess she liked what I did because she let me stay there while she landed. And she even wrote me—I didn't have my logbook with me, so she said, "I'll write you a little note that you can put in your logbook."

03:31:36.860 - 03:31:54.720

did write me that note. Do you still have it? Yes, I do. And so she was, you know, and as we were flying over, when we got to New Jersey, and she loved

03:31:54.820 - 03:32:13.720

to play golf, and she would look down at the different golf courses and she said, "Someday when I can't fly anymore, I am going to play every golf course in the country." She loved it. And so we did have occasion to play golf with her when we had the WASP reunion in Indio,

03:32:13.840 - 03:32:42.900

California. And she had invited some of us that were there a few days before the actual reunion. And so she invited Joe and I and Carl Reed to play golf with her as her guest. And in between, you know, sometimes you have to wait on one tee because the team is still

03:32:43.000 - 03:33:03.360

playing that hole and you have to wait for them to get out. She would dump a little bag of balls and she would practice chipping. So she was as detailed and determined with the golf as she was with the flying. She just always wanted to be better.

03:33:03.940 - 03:33:17.220

So in between holes, she would be practicing. She was just that kind of a person. But she really enjoyed Joe, of course. He always has a joke.

03:33:17.540 - 03:33:23.440

Who wouldn't? Yeah. Wow. And this is not company disposition either.

03:33:23.480 - 03:33:36.380

This is just the way he is. Wow. In lifetimes, there are good times and bad and happy times and sometimes sad times. And I'm sure you've been through some of those.

03:33:37.320 - 03:34:25.320

What got you through those sad times? Well, I guess my mother did because she always used to say, you know, everything happens for the best. And of course that doesn't mean that someone dying is for the best, but she had such an upbeat look on life. And hopefully it has passed on to me because you

03:34:25.340 - 03:34:58.400

You just have to make the best of a situation. If something happens, you have to muddle through. Somehow or other you have to get through. I donít know if itís a matter of self-preservation or what, but I just think that there are bad

03:34:58.500 - 03:35:21.460

times and as they say, ìand this too shall pass.î Let me ask you also, as I ask Joe, if you could look in the camera and talk to children, generations for generations to come, who will be watching you and listening to what you say.

03:35:22.560 - 03:35:54.700

What would you like to say to them that might encourage them to, or motivate them to do do something with their lives? Well, I think, I'm looking at today's youngsters, and I think they spend a little too much time in how they look, and how they wear their makeup, and their clothes, and is it the right

03:35:54.700 - 03:36:34.080

clothes, does it have the right name tag, and I think that there is too much importance put on things instead of on what you do or what you can do. I think it's important to find something that you enjoy doing, whether it be drawing or writing or flying or playing and if you concentrate on the things that you enjoy doing rather than how you look doing

03:36:34.140 - 03:37:08.720

it, you will get a lot of satisfaction. And not only that, but you will attract people to you who are like you and who like the same things that you do. And you will find a much happier life because you will be doing something that you enjoy and you will be meeting people who are also doing something they enjoy and you will find

03:37:08.760 - 03:37:25.440

that you have a lot in common. And this is extremely important, by the way, in finding a mate. It has to be more than, "Oh, I love him and he loves me." You have to have a common goal.

03:37:25.590 - 03:37:49.620

You have to enjoy doing something together because this is going to carry through your life. I've had, excuse me, I've had a very good and a very happy marriage, and I think one of the reasons is because Joe and I had one thing in common.

03:37:50.010 - 03:38:08.420

We both loved to fly, and we both loved aviation. And if he had married someone who said, "Why are you going out to the airport? You know I don't like you to fly. You know it's dangerous."

03:38:08.520 - 03:38:19.560

His life would have been miserable. And vice versa, if I had someone who said to me, "You can't do that. I don't want you to do that." My life would have been miserable.

03:38:20.380 - 03:38:44.140

He always let me do the things that I like to do, and I let him do the things that he liked to do, and I think that's extremely important. Just talking to future generations, don't emphasize too much on the things in life. Emphasize on doing something with your life.

03:38:46.340 - 03:38:59.660

>> I think you're a tremendous role model. >> Tell my kids and grandkids. They're really very proud. >> I was very curious, Judy,

03:38:59.900 - 03:39:12.280

because you said in the very first part of the movie, you talked about your family coming over from Germany. You said something about that it was good timing. I mean, it was a good thing they did.

03:39:12.820 - 03:39:30.860

And then World War II started, Hitler invaded and all of that. Did you have family still there? We did not know that we had family who were killed in the concentration camps. My brother turned up that information when he was doing this research.

03:39:31.560 - 03:39:44.140

You should see the book that he's got. It's this thick. So it wasn't until years and years later? It wasn't until years later that we knew. Did you feel any extra kind of patriotic urge to fly for your country?

03:39:44.210 - 03:40:03.300

Lowry: Well, I wanted to do something. I mean, I used to have dreams about how I was going to go in there if I was in Germany, and if I was up with a Nazi, how I was going to be able to kill them and all that. I mean, I used to have wild dreams about this is what I would do.

03:40:03.740 - 03:40:10.600

But did your parents have-- your parents didn't have accents, though, because they had-- did they have German accents? No. Did they speak with-- okay.

03:40:11.140 - 03:40:15.740

So it was-- No, my grandparents a little bit. Right. But not even that much.

03:40:15.800 - 03:40:34.500

As a matter of fact, my grandfather, when he was in the store-- and I used to work in the store, like, on Saturdays to earn a little extra money. People would come in and they would start talking German to him, and he would say, "You're in the United States now, you don't talk German.

03:40:36.360 - 03:40:53.260

But of course at home they did. And my mother, she went to a German-American school in Hoboken, and she didn't speak English until she was like about seven or eight years old.

03:40:53.440 - 03:41:06.780

Because they spoke German at home, they spoke German in the school. And she didn't speak, but she had absolutely no accent. And she could spell, could that woman spell?

03:41:09.120 - 03:41:20.340

You know, I hear she went through the eighth grade. I think my sister has this book that she made, it's what they did. And page after page, this is how to make a buttonhole.

03:41:21.560 - 03:41:31.580

And this is how to hem something. And this is how to do this and do that. She could do, like I told you, lampshades. And how they made lampshades?

03:41:32.080 - 03:41:50.800

They had the wire frames, and then you took this binding, and you would run it all the way down the metal, and then you would sew the fabric to that. And that's how they made lampshades. Kelly: Okay, well that was my one question.

03:41:53.360 - 03:42:06.540

Let's see. You got to tell me about your command pilot there. Did you meet him in the service? I know the one thing else I wanted to ask.

03:42:06.580 - 03:42:10.980

Was he your CO? No. No. We'll tell you at lunch.

03:42:11.300 - 03:42:20.380

Okay. Okay. When you got to Avenger and you took the oath of office, do you remember that experience? Can you tell me what that was like?

03:42:20.640 - 03:42:31.700

I mean, what did you feel? Did you feel yourself? you were entering the Army? I mean, what was that? Well, yeah, I felt I was entering the Army. I was entering the service.

03:42:32.460 - 03:42:50.620

Put your hand up. Yeah. I mean, it was one of those things that I knew that was expected of us, so it was not a surprise. Why do you think we were not militarized?

03:42:51.900 - 03:42:58.780

But I think I asked you, you know, you did about all the guys. I think she had a good answer to that. Right. Okay.

03:42:59.520 - 03:43:07.620

No, that was it. B, when we-- And I don't know whatever happened to that. They shot the entire hearing.

03:43:09.080 - 03:43:23.420

Somebody has it on film. And I don't know-- You don't know if they were from the Congress or if they were-- Oh no, no, no, no. This was, you know, like a company that does documentaries. And they

03:43:23.520 - 03:43:40.260

were going to do a big documentary. And I don't know what ever happened to it. I've seen a little bit of Dora. If I go through my files really thoroughly, I know that I will have their name. Well, as you write in your book.

03:43:46.100 - 03:44:01.200

We just wanted to turn it on and make it official. - Yeah, Bea, as I said, you are a terrific role model. You have been absolutely charming. And your memory is wonderful.

03:44:01.860 - 03:44:10.260

We just can't thank you enough. - And what you've done for the loss. - Someday children are gonna watch this and you're gonna be such an inspiration.

03:44:11.260 - 03:44:27.580

And for all those kids, I thank you. you are going to give me a big head. Then I will never be able to wear a hat. >> Nah. That is all I want to say. >> Well, I think that you guys are great for doing this. I really do. I mean, this has

03:44:27.660 - 03:44:48.740

got to be a labor of love for you because you have put in hours and hours and your website is fantastic. I do not get to see it as often as I would like, but it is great. It really I appreciate that. That is labor of love. It's all a labor of love.