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[ Pause ] [ Background noise ] >> Who's been out and in supporting-- been supporting this activity.

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It's been a privilege and an honor for me to be involved and have seen things go so well. This morning's first session is on South African women, gender, race, class, political economy.

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We have four presentations, and then we will have a discussion among the panels and from the floor. We'll begin with Leslie Hill Davidson, who will present her and Stella Nkomo's paper, Women

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in the Political Economy of South Africa. Leslie is a lecturer in politics at the Center for Social Studies at Davidson College in North Carolina. Then Sibelitzo Matabane will present a paper

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on the impact of apartheid on rural women. She is a coordinator of media services at ACC here in Austin. Then we will have Renosi Makati, who's from SUNY Binghamton. And she will talk about the participation of women

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in the South African labor force. We will conclude with our own distinguished Rose Brewer, who's in the UT Sociology Department. And Rose will offer some comments

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on gender, race, and class in South Africa. Let me turn it over to Leslie Hill-Davidson, who will begin. The first thing I want to do is bring greetings from my co-writer, Stellan Kamal.

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I think we're all sorry that she can't be here today. The title of our paper is Women in the Political Economy of South Africa, the Contradiction of Necessary Appendages. And in the interest of time, please bear with me because I'm going to try to pull out what

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I hope are some of the more important highlights from the paper. And perhaps during the question and answer we can flesh it out if that isn't done by some of the other papers. perhaps during the question and answer we can flesh it out if that isn't done by some of the other papers.

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Within the context of the political economy of South Africa, the designation of African women as perfluous appendages calls attention to the particular disadvantages of African women as victims of race, class, and gender oppression. It is a confluence of these three systems of oppression in the lives of black women which we wish to examine in order to understand more fully the impact of apartheid

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on South African women. To that end, this paper will examine the relationship of black women to the political economy of South Africa. In an examination of the process of change

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involving the incorporation of African women into the capitalist political economy of South Africa, we will review their work, family, and social roles. Such an assessment of the status of black women

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will allow us to more fully understand how their oppression helps reproduce apartheid society. By virtue of the fact that women, by and large, are engaged in the lowest status occupations

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and that they occupy the lowest levels in the social hierarchy, they are often seen as marginal to South African political economy and society.

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On the contrary, we will argue, it is the exploitation of black women in the performance of these roles that helps buttress the system of white privilege

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in apartheid society. This will be an attempt also to assess the impact of the apartheid structures on the gender roles of women as child bearers and nurturers. And finally, we ask questions about the forms of women's resistance.

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What has been the nature of their resistance and how have some of those forms changed over time? The discovery of substantial gold deposits in South Africa in the 1860s accelerated the process of expropriation of African land holdings begun by white settlers and farmers 200 years

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earlier. Many Africans sought wage employment on white-owned farms and in gold mines. This entry of large numbers of former peasants into South Africa's cash economy in the 19th century marked the beginning of the transformation of the African peasantry and the creation of the migrant labor system. These

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developments had specific implications for African women. First, the transformation of the peasantry meant a shift from autonomous production in and communal society to laboring as farm workers or as adjuncts to male farm labor.

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Second, when men migrated in response to the demand for farm and mine labor and women remained in rural areas, the latter's roles assumed new meaning.

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Women, quote, "anchored the African family and labor power reproduction in reserve areas," unquote, and maintained subsistence production, which provided families with many necessities,

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thus supplementing African male wages. Women whose husbands migrated became heads of households and the traditional family structure began to erode. This was accompanied paradoxically by a decline

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in the importance of women's productive roles. With the increasing importance of cash income for survival and the overwhelming preponderance of men as migrant wage laborers,

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the sexual division of labor became hierarchical, increasingly hierarchical, and African women were being transformed into economic dependents.

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By the 1920s, as the South African economy was entering a new phase of development, the vast majority of African women continued to live in rural areas.

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Despite increasing demands for cash, African women in the main resisted engaging in agricultural wage work. Instead, they increased their productivity

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and subsistence farming, and thus delayed their incorporation into the wage economy. In the reserves, African women's primary roles were first as reproducers of the labor force required

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for the expanding modern sector, and second, as producers of necessities for their families, making possible the depression of African wage levels. The period between the two world wars

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witnessed two significant developments. First, there was expansion in the South African economy brought on by increased investment in non-agricultural sectors.

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Second, productive capacity in the reserves was declining due to land scarcity and soil erosion. In contradiction to its intended objective of reducing pressure on the wage rates of males,

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subsistence production was increasingly unable to provide adequate levels of survival. Under the migrant labor system, women and families in the reserves actually became more dependent

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on the wages of males. This resulted in women's migration to towns by the 1930s and 1940s. The large-scale migration of African women to the towns

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was a direct form of resistance to the oppressive conditions of the reserves. In the 1930s, the first nationwide legislative attempts to stem the tide of African women

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entering the urban areas were made, but were largely ineffective because women were exempt from past laws. With this migration to towns, women

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were able to obtain more jobs outside of agriculture, but these were limited primarily to domestic service. And African women comprised well over half of all domestic servants by the end of World War II.

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Their numbers among industrial workers remained insignificant until the economic boom of the 1960s. By 1946, only 36% of African women were engaged in subsistence production in the reserves.

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The significance of these trends is clarified by Amelie Mariotti in writing that cash-earning activities had begun to replace subsistence production as a means used by African women to supplement the wages of their men. This process, coupled with the demands of urban living, forced reliance on commodities

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in towns. The necessity to work more in order to increase income meant that Africans' dependence on wage work had become complete by the 1950s. Thus, with regard to their economic roles, African women continued to supplement their

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husbands' wages and by doing so subsidize the capitalist system in South Africa. But just as in the case of subsistence agriculture, the supplement produced by women's work grew increasingly insufficient to meet the survival needs of black families. And even where women worked in the informal sector, selling food and handicrafts, brewing

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beer, dressmaking, et cetera, they still didn't make sufficient income even to raise their families incomes to survival levels. In addition, African women continue to be reproducers of the labor force, maintaining those not available for work, children, the disabled, and the elderly in the reserves.

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Furthermore, women in urban areas continued serving as social anchors in their communities, providing services such as unpaid child care through support systems and networks. African women's performance of these roles additionally indirectly subsidized South Africa's capitalist economy by providing services for Africans whose wages from that economy were

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insufficient to pay for them in the marketplace of goods and services. The economic conditions for Africans during the 1940s directly affected political developments and ushered in a period of growing militancy among black workers and political organization. This period witnessed a series of strikes for higher wages and improvements in working

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conditions alongside several other major anti-apartheid events. Perhaps though, most of the significant political activities took place at the local community level and women were participants in these activities as well. The rising cost of living and periodic food shortages pressed particularly heavily on

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African women because of their position as wives and mothers as well as their economic insecurity, township women featured prominently in many of the grassroots movements and campaigns that centered around home issues. Perhaps the most significant campaign of the decade was the campaign against the pass laws,

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and in particular, the extension of passbooks to African women. Women were the primary catalyst and were largely acting on their own initiative and according to their own understanding of how the extension of passes would affect their own lives and that of their families.

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women clearly understood that the imposition of passes would increase the effectiveness of the influx control system. In 1952, when the government announced that African women would have to carry passes, it was acting out of a concern about the growing permanency of the African urban community.

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The women responded with behemoths. The resulting 10-year campaign has remained one of the most significant events in the history of resistance to apartheid. Furthermore, resistance to pass laws was not the only issue in the 1950s and '60s.

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Several forms of resistance coexisted. African women largely focused on issues that affected their ability to care for their children and to keep their family units together. The third change in women's work corresponds with South Africa's economic expansion in

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the years after the Second World War. Due in large measure to massive infusions of foreign capital and its ability to reap huge profits through the exploitation of African labor, the South African economy grew at a pace

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second only to that of Japan. As the economy expanded, various groups of workers moved up the occupational ladder. White men into the highest skill levels in industry,

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white and colored women into clerical and sales jobs, and black males from general labor positions in industry to those in production workers. It was not until the 1960s that African women began

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working in significant numbers in industry in sectors which had earlier relied on female labor or African labor, but their numbers remained small. I have a little more to say about that,

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but we can do that in discussion period. I'll go on, finish quickly. Even though it's difficult to compare statistics reported by the South African government,

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I'd like to make some suggestions about what they might retain. With the continued expansion of the South African economy in the 1970s and its concomitant demand for labor,

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there was some growth in the proportion of African women employed in industry the professions, clerical and sales work, and domestic work. Such growth reflects expanded opportunities

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for other occupational groups, which in a successive fashion make room for the marginal inclusion of African women at the lowest levels of the occupational structure and in the most menial categories

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of industrial and white collar work. The growing urbanization and incorporation of women into industrial positions has major implications for the way in which they respond

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to the oppression of apartheid. During the Soweto Rebellion in '76 and still today, South African women continue to play a major role in the struggle for national liberation.

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They continue to fight through political organizations, resistance to force removals, boycotts, rent strikes, demonstrations, and the like. Women in the trade unions are putting pressure

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on their unions to negotiate with management on issues that specifically affect women. And in conclusion, a review of the work of African women reveals that they serve far more than either superfluous

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or appendage-like functions with regard to the South African political economy, despite or perhaps because of the fact that they serve as a reserve labor force employed largely

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in response to expansion in the economy, that they occupy the lowest job categories and are paid, sometimes according to law, the lowest wages of any group of workers,

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and that their work appears to be the least valuable given their wage levels. The role of African women to the maintenance of capitalism apartheid in South Africa is essential.

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First, much of the work of African women represents a supplement to the wages of African men. As subsistence producers, as caretakers in the reserves of those unavailable to the labor force, and as low-paid labor units on farms and in cities, women make possible the continued depression of male wages by employers and indirectly increase the surplus available

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to the economy. Second, as the lowest-paid group of employees in the productive sector, African women contribute additional surplus to the capitalist economy, more than is available from any other group of workers.

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Further, as poorly paid domestic servants, black women perform the domestic roles of white women, enabling them to work outside the home, thus making even more surplus available to South African capitalism. The relationship of African women to the political economy of South Africa has largely shaped

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their particular response to apartheid. African women's concern with day-to-day survival, food, housing, education, and healthcare provided the functional basis for their anti-government and anti-apartheid activities. Finally, African women have generally recognized that basic changes in the status of women

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are not possible under apartheid and capitalism. Even when women focus on disabilities peculiar to women, they interpret them as due to apartheid rather than sexism. Feminism, as we define it, is almost absent from the social fabric of South Africa.

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This is primarily due to the overwhelming burden of racial discrimination. women are the victims of a threefold oppression and their emancipation will not be complete until all three are eradicated. In the non-racial society of the future, all vestiges of patriarchal attitudes and institutions will have to

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be dismantled. Thank you Leslie. We now turn the microphone to Sibylle Montefatti, who will speak to us on the impact of apartheid on rural women. Thank you.

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The struggle for human rights in South Africa is a fight for political, economic, and social freedom. The struggle is against the brutal apartheid system under which women are discriminated against on the basis of gender, race, and class. The interaction of these three elements

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within the ruling South African ideological context result in the calculated dehumanization of the African woman. My presentation will concentrate specifically

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on the issue of gender. and concentrate on the African women and the devastating political, economic, and social effects of their party ideology on this group.

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In relative terms, the urban African woman has had more opportunity to be literate, has had more career options, limited as they are, more opportunity at networking with a diverse group of men and women, and has also had a

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better opportunity at receiving medical help, and may even have suffered less from the exploitation of traditional African customs by African men and the Sarapunga. Furthermore, the urban African woman has had a better chance of being heard, clearly because of the infrastructure.

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It is difficult to get to some of the remote rural areas, so that the plight of women, their concerns, that is, can always be heard or are always heard because of transportation problems, for another reason.

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In adapting Maslow's theory of an internal need hierarchy to these women as individuals, as a group, and as members of the larger African community, it is evident that the struggle of the majority of rural African women is largely at the two lower levels of need, that is the physiological and safety and security levels. These of course are basic human needs related to food, water, housing, protection against

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danger and threat, freedom from fear, etc. etc. They are indeed basic. Indeed, the reality of living in a rural area is a slow but sudden death. This, of course, has been exacerbated by the forced removals of large numbers of Africans,

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I mean millions of them, to areas that are barren, that have better eroded subsistence farming. The government has limited the number of cattle and sheep that these people can have in their so that way as before, despite the fact that African women were poor, largely poor, living in rural areas,

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people always said, well, they can always have a garden, they can always have food. This is no longer the case. I mean, you can't generalize that way because of the desolate areas where people have been moved. The slides that we saw yesterday that Jane showed us showed some of the rural areas where

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they're hiding trees. That poses a lot of problems for the up and coming in the rural areas. Essentially, these areas,

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particularly the ones located in homelands, are internment camps which offer little educational and job opportunities. lack adequate health care facilities,

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and of course, productive arable land. For the majority of African women, the environment is hostile and not conducive to physical and mental well-being.

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And of course, it cannot, it's difficult for it to sustain a healthy, viable society. In the political arena, some areas of concern include the status of women as perpetual minors.

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That women sometimes have to have their young boys, their young male children to co-sign. Doesn't make sense, I mean, it's a model. It's devastating to the aspirations of women.

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It does create a lot of problems because you can't always freely or readily enter into contractual legal agreements with other entities.

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Second area of concern is denial of land ownership by women. While it is difficult for men to transfer the land, it is doubly difficult for women to do so. For women that live in rural areas,

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we need to move out of that area to look for better job opportunities someplace else, they essentially forfeit their right to that land and the right of their children to that land.

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That's a problem. Clearly, the forced relocation, which is one of the government's genocide strategies for the Africans,

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creates desperate problems. moving people to desolate, hostile environments, keeping them there to just, I guess, die away without having to drop bombs on them.

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Let me remind you that these removals directly affect more women than men, because it is they that are forced by the government policy to live in rural areas, while there

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men who are forced to search for contract labor outside of the rural areas to support them, support their families. It is a woman that has to deal with the trauma of having to till the land and grow food on barren land for her mostly poor, devastated family. It is a woman who must build shelter for the family while the man is in the urban area on cheap contract labor. It is a woman who must walk great distances to gather wood for furrow and water to sustain an empty, lonely life of a bison family.

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Essentially what the government means them to be. It is a woman who must often helplessly watch as her children die of government-induced typhoid, malnutrition, and starvation. The government is leaving canvass. Possibly moving people into tents or hardly any shelter

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with no running water, no sanitation facilities or anything like that. It is a form of genocide that they're committing. Yes, it is a woman that must care for the old man and woman

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in her family and also in the community. Because in many of these rural areas, All of the young men are out working in mines or white farms or someplace else where they can get employment

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outside of the rural areas. So essentially, children grow up with either old men or sick men as role models. The economic outlook on the rural folk is obvious.

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The unemployment rate in these areas can be as high as 71% depending on how far the area is from a wider urban area where they're likely to get employment. Employment opportunities for rural women

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are limited largely to sharecroppers, tenant farmers, domestic workers, and possibly factory workers in areas where there are border industries. But then again, some of these affected workers

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must spend sometimes up to five hours commuting each day from home to work. The social problems experienced by rural women due to the apartheid policy are too numerous

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and complex to address here. Two, however, deserve special mention. In the health area, the mental stress of dealing with bureaucracy and dozens of laws

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intended to kill the body and spirit, the concern over clean drinking water, the scarcity of food, malnutrition, is often devastating.

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And this question of food is very, very critical, especially when one considers documented evidence about the importance of nutrition in the development of the young mind and the body.

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The forced separation of families, as enforced by such laws as the Cruella Act, create complex problems for rural women. As I said earlier, many children are raised in communities

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where most adult males are either old or sick, and thus have very few strong positive local role models. Because you don't have very many men in, or say, adults helping men in the rural areas,

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women must now undertake roles that have traditionally been held by men. They must help build their shelter, gather wood, and essentially be heads of families.

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Because although the men may be sending money to the rural area, to the home ever so often, essentially it's a woman that has to be both father and mother to the children.

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But what does the future hold? Would a lot of these women improve? Can it improve before apartheid is dismantled? How much change can be expected

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also after the destruction of apartheid? The role and significance of African women in the South African liberation struggle has been documented for several decades.

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Also documented are concerns and needs of men and women who, as a matter of fact, have helped form women's groups. For instance, women's groups within ANC and also the Federation of South African Women,

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which have really been good. It's clear that men and women need to clarify for themselves values of freedom, justice, self-respect, respect for others, and self-determination. The support of African men is necessary in the liberation of African women. There must be

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consistency in the fight against oppression in South Africa. The African man must model good behavior. He must model the type of behavior he would like to realize in South Africa of a free people. They need to destroy oppression no matter who the perpetrator is. It's vital in the self-interest of the entire African community.

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Men and women must help educate each other, must help educate the young about the special concerns of African women in relation to the destruction of oppression. The human rights concerns, the concerns for equality,

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freedom from oppression and intimidation must be addressed by the entire African community, indeed by the entire South African community, if true freedom is to reign in South Africa.

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The liberation of the African woman must not only be addressed now, but we must obviously see some movement right now. We don't have to wait until Sadaf is free to realize that. Clearly, we do have good models.

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The ANC executive committee has several women in that body, helping make decisions about the struggle. That's a good move. So we need to make sure that even at the grassroots level,

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that happens. Because in spite of apartheid, African men do have some power to change their attitudes and behaviors towards their women.

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Most African men still need to be liberated in this regard. I am hopeful that that will happen. Thank you. [APPLAUSE]

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Thank you. Our next presentation will be by Minosi. The purpose of my paper is to analyze the integration of African women into the South African economy,

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in particular the labor market, to look at conceptual issues and the tensions arising from trying to integrate the fight against triple oppression suffered by black women in South Africa, and analyzing

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the position of women accounting for race, class, and gender within the economy. This is important for the purposes of the liberation struggle, as well as for policy and program formulation

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in a liberated South Africa. The position of women in South African society has clearly been the result of race, class, and gender, as Leslie and Sibilezo have effectively demonstrated.

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And Leslie has demonstrated also that in analyzing the position of women historically, one can in fact observe their position within the economy shifting at different times

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in the integration of South Africa's economy to the world economic system, depending on where in the economy they were needed, and based on their social status within the society.

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Throughout, we see that interaction between the process of popular accumulation, patriarchy, and racism. I will not go into any detail on that

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since Leslie and Spillett have covered it so effectively. What I want to raise is simply some of the conceptual issues that have come up in attempts to analyze the situation of black women within the South African

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economy, within South African society. Conceptually, the major theoretical issues, frameworks that have been used to analyze the integration of black women in the economy of South Africa

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have come either from the neoclassical economic school, the segmented labor market theory, Marxist theory, feminist theory, and the feminist Marxist theory. Clearly, the neoclassical theory and segmented labor market

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theory have been the most inadequate in enabling us to understand the factors that have shaped where women are within the economy of South Africa and why they are in that situation.

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Both tend to be ahistorical, and in the case of the segmented labor market, while it has been descriptively accurate in describing the fact that women have been relegated to certain sectors

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of the economy, it fails to address the major factors and causes of the relegation of women into those particular sectors of the economy. The most prevalent theory that has been used recently

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is that in analyzing the situation of black women in the South African economy has been the feminist perspective, which has tried to capture all the dimensions that affect black women, race, class, and gender.

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Although even here, there's been, given that a substantial proportion of African women, in particular, are involved in the economy as domestic servants and in the rural sector,

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there have been some problems in conceptualizing how exactly to characterize their condition and how to effectively explain their condition. That is, yeah, I'm referring to the so-called

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domestic labor debate and whether the concept of exploitation as conceptualized in Marxian theory adequately describe or able to adequately allow us to capture

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the nature of oppression and exploitation of women domestic workers. What we see is that the question of women not only raises the totality of issues

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that have to be addressed in the liberation of black people in South Africa. It also challenges the existing framework and pushes them to become,

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pushes one to become more creative or recombinate existing frameworks, recognizing what their weaknesses have been in trying to explain the situation of women

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within the South African economy. And various people are trying to do this, especially I think the case of domestic workers is the one that has really pushed the analytical frameworks

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and the conceptualization to be more efficient in their analysis. Another point is that in analyzing the women in the political economy of South Africa,

00:34:04.720 - 00:34:14.720

one finds that they are in sectors of the economy which also do not lend themselves very well to conventional economic and political analysis. that is they are heavily involved

00:34:14.720 - 00:34:23.960

in the rural subsistence sector and again domestic service, the so-called informal sector, which do not tend to be examined

00:34:23.960 - 00:34:34.920

because they do not directly manifest themselves as part of the modern commercial industrial sector that we tend to focus on in our analysis and that we tend to think about

00:34:34.920 - 00:34:48.920

in trying to formulate policies and in trying to formulate programs for integrating women more positively into the economy. This problem was, of course, already showing itself

00:34:48.920 - 00:34:59.840

in many African countries and in many development programs and has been addressed by various people in the area of women in development. And these are problems that we as South Africans

00:34:59.840 - 00:35:12.080

have to make sure that are not repeated in a liberated South Africa. The forms of organizations that women use to address their issues and those of their communities

00:35:12.080 - 00:35:26.920

collectively, also not the types of issues conventionally that can be studied by political scientists. And as already indicated, with respect to some of the Marxist categories, there has been a problem in

00:35:26.920 - 00:35:47.320

characterizing the issue of women domestic workers, and what this implies is that even as we talked about class, we talk about the labor union movement, have to recognize that there's a substantial number of women who are very much part of the labor market and who are very much part of the economy.

00:35:47.320 - 00:36:19.240

And there are those women who are in the labor reserves and are not included in these categories and who are actively involved in the resistance movement and yet they are not, you know, their issues are not addressed and they form part of the most exploited and degraded sector of our society. In addition to the conceptual problems, we also have to recognize that women are also obscured and isolated, not by the institutions

00:36:19.240 - 00:36:29.360

and the infrastructures that have come up or that have emerged as a result of their existing above the existing. For example, the implications of an inadequate infrastructure

00:36:29.360 - 00:36:40.880

in the homeland, if you do communication and transportation, and how this infrastructure acts to isolate women from the rest of the economy and the society have to be addressed.

00:36:40.880 - 00:36:51.200

Socio-economic institutions such as domestic service and how they act to isolate women from other sectors within the economy and contain their ability to organize themselves

00:36:51.200 - 00:37:06.580

and also obscure their exploitation have to be addressed. The issue of women's racism, and a complex of issues that forces us to look at all the units of society, look at all the institutions

00:37:06.580 - 00:37:21.000

and infrastructures within society and how they impact upon the women and consequently how they impact upon the feminine unit within the black community and the total black community.

00:37:21.000 - 00:37:34.200

Finally, just to reiterate the point that has already been made by Sileto and Leslie, The struggle for the liberation of oppressed people in South Africa has to very consciously proceed

00:37:34.200 - 00:37:43.920

from coloration with the struggle for the liberation of women. The issue of looking at the question of women is not a divisive one.

00:37:43.920 - 00:37:57.000

It need not be a divisive one because we are concerned as much about the liberation of men and children as we are about the liberation of women. That is, the struggle by African women or black men

00:37:57.000 - 00:38:09.600

in South Africa is pro-humanity. It is not pro-men, I mean, it's not pro-women and anti-men. However, we have to recognize that women have been impacted upon in a different manner from men,

00:38:09.600 - 00:38:21.200

and that our African men have also been, have and are also part of the problem that we face in our liberation struggle, whether it be because of privileges

00:38:21.200 - 00:38:41.720

that have been afforded them by a patriarchal system or our own patriarchal structure. Either way, the subjugation of women is suing from the process has to be recognized and fought against by all of us. We already have been fighting in the struggle together and have begun to deal creatively

00:38:41.720 - 00:38:59.960

with some of the tensions arising from the issue of race, class, and gender because definitely there is a tension in dealing with or trying to deal with all those three issues simultaneously And there should not be a tendency to try and push one struggle over another, because all are very much integrated.

00:38:59.960 - 00:39:09.840

And we cannot be true to any one of those struggles if we ignore the other. That is, we cannot say that we are truly for the liberation of black people in South Africa

00:39:09.840 - 00:39:28.560

if at the same time we are engaging the oppression of half of our own population by our own. As a final note, hopefully this creative dealing with these tensions will be manifested

00:39:28.560 - 00:39:39.760

in the next time we will have supposals, we won't necessarily have a separate panel on women and the discussion of women's issues by women, but that these issues will be raised

00:39:39.760 - 00:39:50.560

and fully integrated in all the panels, and then men too will be actively addressing these issues. Thank you. (audience applauding)

00:39:50.560 - 00:40:09.480

- Thank you, Minoz. Rose will continue with some of these themes and offer us a framework for discussing issues of gender, race, and class.

00:40:09.480 - 00:40:34.000

- Actually, as co-chair and co-organizer of this session, What I'd like to do is not another paper, but to highlight some of the points made by our other panelists and to perhaps place these questions in a reasonable theoretical framework. And at that point, I think we can open up the panel to a discussion.

00:40:34.000 - 00:40:56.180

I'm certainly quite pleased with Professor Makati's last admonition that we don't need to segregate issues of women from other issues because they're absolutely essential. I chuckled to myself when I heard that because we almost did not have a panel at all. So we're making progress and maybe next year there will be a point of integration.

00:40:56.180 - 00:41:16.900

But I think the issues raised today are absolutely essential to any understanding of South Africa today and any transformation in that society which is going to occur. The importance of women in clarifying the oppression of people in South Africa is right at the heart of the question of race and class exploitation, because it is in the oppression

00:41:16.900 - 00:41:32.220

of women or in sex-gender relationships that we can understand more sharply the racism and classism of that society. And I think I don't need to make that point any more strongly than our panelists have already made it.

00:41:32.220 - 00:41:55.420

I want to, however, drive home this issue of the interrelationships of race, gender, class because in our society and I would suspect in most societies the whole question of women as being somewhat as less essential less important to the real question of liberation is a nagging one it still haunts our conceptual

00:41:55.420 - 00:42:14.300

frameworks and it still haunts our efforts of resistance and transformation I think part of it has to do unfortunately with the way the women's movement has been defined in this country. It is unfortunately a bourgeois individualistic movement which says that women's transformation is tied to her success within the system.

00:42:14.300 - 00:42:34.800

And that has been the major theme running through most of the work, theoretical and conceptual, of women theorists in this society. And the West has certainly played an essential role in this process. This does not undermine the importance of a progressive assessment of the exploitation that women face all over the world.

00:42:34.800 - 00:42:48.040

I think it is up to third world women to some extent make this assessment and that's what was happening today. And I think that's the important point of this panel and certainly any future panels that will occur along these lines.

00:42:48.040 - 00:43:03.080

Unfortunately, the case of South Africa is an extremely difficult one because race is so pervasive in that society. It's very difficult to call out the import of gender. I think these women have done a quite excellent job

00:43:03.080 - 00:43:15.280

in showing you that relationship in the economy as well as in the family. But it is such an exclusively black-white society that somehow gender gets lost in the shuffle.

00:43:15.280 - 00:43:24.440

Racism, of course, bides the allegiance of all whites, women as well as men. And one might ask the question, what do white women and black women have in common

00:43:24.440 - 00:43:33.200

given the circumstance? The alternative side of that question is that there are some people who happen to be white who are involved in resistance and struggle.

00:43:33.200 - 00:43:45.240

So the chasm isn't entirely complete. But racial oppression and exploitation certainly obscures both class as well as gender. And I think these women have gone into some detail

00:43:45.240 - 00:43:57.640

to show you the interconnections between those three isms. Labor as well as family are impacted on by race, class, and gender in South Africa. Quite a bit of the discussion today

00:43:57.640 - 00:44:11.540

has been on the labor system, the urban labor system, the role of black South African women in the industrial sector, the role of black South African women in subsistence farming. Obviously, they are the linchpin of the economy in South Africa.

00:44:11.540 - 00:44:21.060

But also, they are the linchpin of the family system of South Africa. And it's because of apartheid that they are forced in both rural, urban, and squatter areas

00:44:21.060 - 00:44:32.460

to hold families and communities together. It's in their sphere, in the sphere of community and family, that women play an absolutely essential role. And I think that theme was not played out very well today.

00:44:32.460 - 00:44:42.240

But part of the resistance and struggle that's going on reflects that very reality. Because the women's organizations, the community organizations are centered squarely

00:44:42.240 - 00:44:51.060

on those issues and around those issues that are primarily women's concern. Black South African women, as all women across the world, are concerned with their children

00:44:51.060 - 00:44:57.820

and the survival of their children. They're concerned with nurturance. They're concerned with holding their families together. and their concern with the livelihood

00:44:57.820 - 00:45:09.560

as well as the transformation of that society. And they have held up their end. I noticed that this Southern Aquifer Court has a focus on women.

00:45:09.560 - 00:45:18.380

And actually, it's a very good summary of some of the resistance that has come out of the women's movement, the black women's movement in that country.

00:45:18.380 - 00:45:27.300

And I recommend it as a summary statement of what's going on. But it's in the community of women, It's in the community of female organizing,

00:45:27.300 - 00:45:39.380

as well as in the community of labor, as well as in the actual liberation struggles, the ANC, that women are playing an absolutely essential role. And I think the panelists have also played up that point.

00:45:39.380 - 00:45:47.980

So in every sense, I would suggest, and I would argue that the lenses of race, class, and gender are absolutely essential to an understanding and analysis,

00:45:47.980 - 00:46:00.100

as well as a transformation of South African society. Black women are at the heart of that struggle, And it's from those women that all of us can take heart for the creation of a new South Africa.

00:46:00.100 - 00:46:10.300

Now I think at this point we want to open it up for discussion. - Following the precedent we set the last couple of days, if you'd like to raise a question,

00:46:10.300 - 00:46:21.620

please go to the microphone, which is over here, so that all can hear. - Thank you very much. I just want to congratulate the women who spoke today

00:46:21.620 - 00:46:34.820

and this panel on race, class, and gender in South Africa. I was really impressed with it. I think the sort of discussions that one always finds, especially here, is that people

00:46:34.820 - 00:46:55.060

link the position of women in South Africa to the 20th century feminist movement, which sometimes kind of blurs over the issues, the real issues, and tend to emphasize lesbianism and issues like abortion

00:46:55.060 - 00:47:06.220

and things like that. And it's issues, I suppose, I'm not saying that in South Africa we don't get those kinds of problems, but we haven't really addressed those issues.

00:47:06.220 - 00:47:19.780

Incidentally, I was a member of UWO, which is the United Women's Organization, when it was revived in the '80s, which was obviously the revival of the Federation of South African Women.

00:47:19.780 - 00:47:33.820

And the problems that we had there was that we never really touched the issues that affected the women. And I am addressing myself to Ms. Matabane because what she did today,

00:47:33.820 - 00:47:45.780

you know, separating the women from, of the urban areas and the rural area, she was able to exclusively draw our attention to the differences because people tend to see

00:47:45.780 - 00:48:03.020

women in South Africa, all being a homogeneous group. But I think it's actually being-- I mean, it's unreal to say that both these groups are affected by the situation in South Africa in the same way.

00:48:03.020 - 00:48:14.620

I would just like to add, though-- and I think it's not something that she didn't look at. I just want to draw attention to things like polygamy in the rural areas that does not

00:48:14.620 - 00:48:26.660

exist in the urban areas. If it does exist, one doesn't know really about it. Or it's been transformed in a different way. Forced marriages in the rural areas.

00:48:26.660 - 00:48:39.580

Fortunately, I'm standing here. I was a victim of such a marriage myself. And uku chippa of the men, the desertion. Uku chippa, wabafana, the young men

00:48:39.580 - 00:48:54.380

that go to the urban areas from their families. And this is the situation that affects the women in the rural areas, because they have to face polygamy, where there isn't enough

00:48:54.380 - 00:49:05.140

land for all those women. They are victims of forced marriages, sometimes when their children or their daughters have to go in such marriages, or when

00:49:05.140 - 00:49:19.220

they have to make decisions for their daughters, especially when they themselves have actually been victims of marriages like that. And also, uku chippa, when they have to deal with their kids

00:49:19.220 - 00:49:31.660

having to desert them, not because they want to, but because of the fact that when they get to the urban areas, the economic situation in the urban areas is so overwhelming for them to be

00:49:31.660 - 00:49:41.880

able to look after themselves. So it's difficult for them to actually try and keep some kind of communication with their parents, with their mothers in the rural areas.

00:49:41.880 - 00:49:52.180

And the other thing, very isolated today, but you still find it in some of the rural areas, but particularly in Lesotho, is that of initiation among the women.

00:49:52.180 - 00:50:03.100

I mean, I'm not saying, I mean, those are just little issues that I think you might want to look at. And then also to add to what Mukati said in the end,

00:50:03.100 - 00:50:15.040

we're hoping that you know me but actually it is the issue and i will uh... also draw people attention to add to the coolness book uh... that the time of the picture that

00:50:15.040 - 00:50:22.320

you know the only also so far west out with you know uh... the women issue or even to a certain extent

00:50:22.320 - 00:50:30.900

they find my town uh... you know the evening the the the the uh... this that the protest in the in in in the community

00:50:30.900 - 00:50:52.000

that was going to be removed to another area by the government where when a brother actually sold out and you know other writers especially women have have have not addressed the issue of women thank you very much.

00:50:52.000 - 00:51:18.720

I yesterday we were talking about the relationship between race and class in terms of the liberation And of course, there has been a tendency upon occasion in various of the liberation movements and groups to say, it's a two-stage revolution. We'll have the national come anti-racism struggle first and think about class questions later.

00:51:18.720 - 00:51:35.040

And of course, in the current moment, there's quite a bit of movement within the liberation movement broadly defined to bring those two moments together to debate them, the ANC, CSAH2, et cetera. There has also been a tendency, I think, in some of the previous manifestations of the

00:51:35.040 - 00:51:54.760

liberation movement in South Africa, when this question has been raised at all, to say we must have our national struggle first and then we can get around to gender questions. Now, it's not exclusively in South Africa that that kind of thing is said, but I think it's quite an important one in terms of the prefiguring of the new South Africa.

00:51:54.760 - 00:52:05.880

You did, one of the speakers did mention the presence of some women in the executive committee of the ANC. It's still only two or three out of 30, but one couldn't say it isn't a step in the right direction.

00:52:05.880 - 00:52:26.440

But I wonder if more might be said about the level of debate and discussion within the liberation movement, broadly defined, whether it be the ANC, the UDF, et cetera, about putting this issue, both women in the workplace, but the triple burden, et cetera, on the agenda politically now or is it being to a certain extent delayed and what are the

00:52:26.440 - 00:52:58.160

costs and benefits of approaching it in these various ways? I think that we are getting to a stage where more and more there is a tendency not to have it delayed by the growing recognition that this is an issue that has to be dealt with concurrently, because it always keeps coming up in the process of strategizing, in the liberation movement,

00:52:58.160 - 00:53:22.160

how we utilize our resources and how the biases and attitudes that men have against women may hinder how it is that we're able to strategize and formulate liberation struggle strategies. So I think, even though in the past there has been a tendency on both men and women to look at the national liberation

00:53:22.160 - 00:53:38.160

struggle as the important struggle, and even as women have participated, there has been looking at the national liberation struggle, addressing women's issues, but in the context of the national liberation struggle and not necessarily dealing with the nitty-gritty gender

00:53:38.160 - 00:53:59.160

issues within the Black community themselves, but I think we're moving more, you know, I think we're progressing in terms of where it is that we're going. As indicated, I think, more and more in the discussions that have been held at the National Women's Conference and the Liberation Walk. Let's say something, one more.

00:53:59.160 - 00:54:17.080

Obviously, there is no unanimity here. There are some persons who are pushing the complete transformation and dismantling of apartheid before questions of gender are placed on the agenda. And apparently there were a group of women in Kenya who made this very statement that

00:54:17.080 - 00:54:32.960

their struggle is primarily a liberation struggle that dismantles that system. But there are also counter forces within South Africa. And women, small groups of women who are organizing, it's my understanding that the Federation of South African Women has now been revised.

00:54:32.960 - 00:54:52.560

And quite a bit of the impetus coming out of the most recent struggles have given rise to women who are pushing not only gender liberation but also the transformation of the system. So it's a process of flux. There's no consensus as of yet from what I can understand, but there are divergent forces.

00:54:52.560 - 00:55:05.880

Just as there's splintering within the wider movement, there are also splinterings among the women there. And I would imagine that in this process of change and transformation, some degree of consensus will be reached at some point.

00:55:05.880 - 00:55:20.680

But when? Who knows? I would just like to add that South Africans have an advantage in that they can learn from experiences of other independent African countries.

00:55:20.680 - 00:56:02.840

Clearly, looking at countries such as Zambia, Tanzania, Kenya, the liberation of women didn't occur at the same time as the liberation of the country, the people. after independence, the potential of women in, say, the labor force wasn't as it could have been. After liberation, efforts were then made to re-educate women, to train them, to re-educate children and all of that,

00:56:02.840 - 00:56:18.080

to sort of extend human rights to the entire community. Clearly, we are learning from that. We believe that we need to be true to the struggle. We need to, we cannot separate women's liberation

00:56:18.080 - 00:56:25.880

from our liberation. Yes, and I've been here. - Okay. I would like to make a comment,

00:56:25.880 - 00:56:41.600

and I would like that each member of the panel would comment on this. I think the most important role of women is that of wife and mother.

00:56:41.600 - 00:56:58.200

And I think that in order for them to do this most difficult role, they need the best support from the men and the best education possible in order for them

00:56:58.200 - 00:57:21.080

to achieve this most important role. And I can see the reaction on one person's face. But I would like for the women to really comment on what I think throughout history has been one

00:57:21.080 - 00:57:35.540

of the most important roles. instead of the role of PhDs. [LAUGHTER] No more.

00:57:35.540 - 00:57:52.000

We'll start on this end. [LAUGHTER] I wish the issue was so clear cut as you make it, that one can neatly define roles as either mother and nurturer

00:57:52.000 - 00:58:04.460

from those of the provider. But I think we're entering the kind of world-- and we're not going to go back as far as I can see-- where both the labor and the nurturing skills of men and women

00:58:04.460 - 00:58:13.640

are needed. Now, the vision of the new society that that entails is not in existence anywhere. I suspect that if you talk to the bulk of Afro-American women

00:58:13.640 - 00:58:26.000

in this country, there isn't even a second person within their household to provide this luxury that you speak of. We now face a crisis in this country around family life, where over half of all black children are growing up

00:58:26.000 - 00:58:35.900

in households with not a second person, a male formerly within the household. They may be there in informal ways, but we have a tremendous crisis in this society

00:58:35.900 - 00:58:48.920

along those lines among our very people. Secondly, women typically do a double role. The bulk of households in this country are among women where only 11% are actually in a situation

00:58:48.920 - 00:59:01.440

where they can't simply be mothers and nurturers. 89% of those people, because of the demands of the economy, are in the labor force. Now, we can envision a different way of constructing the world,

00:59:01.440 - 00:59:12.360

but the luxury that you're speaking to is not in existence today. [INAUDIBLE] Well, that's an interesting question.

00:59:12.360 - 00:59:21.200

It's a question that is problematic if you perceive men not playing a central role in the raising of a new generation of children. If you're saying that it's simply

00:59:21.200 - 00:59:33.400

a female task, which is highly debatable, then it might be very problematical. But I happen to think that children function and nurture on both males and females within this society.

00:59:33.400 - 00:59:43.040

So we're dealing from somewhat different value perceptions and ideological positions. And I don't want to get into an argument about it, but I think there's some real problems with the position

00:59:43.040 - 01:00:07.720

that you make. Even though there was a little chuckling and laughing at the time, the question is very serious because the way I see that question and the whole notion that women's best fulfillment comes from being wives and mothers is a confinement.

01:00:07.720 - 01:00:31.060

It's a confinement of both women and men to separate each group on the basis of biology and to suggest that we're best fit for one role or another. And it's the kind of -- it involves a kind of oppression that, as far as I'm concerned, is akin to the biological denigration that's embodied in racism.

01:00:31.060 - 01:00:53.220

And that is the way I see that process, that process of thinking. But what's essential in that, I think, is important to understand is that what we're talking about is a system of oppression. We're talking about power, and we're talking about a limitation of both men and women.

01:00:53.220 - 01:01:22.980

And I think that that is very important to understand, because when we talk about liberation, liberation and moving away from gender prescribed roles we talk about making it possible for people to be able to be fulfilled as individuals and within as individuals as part of a community so it's very important I think also to understand that this is what we're talking about is not

01:01:22.980 - 01:01:36.920

in the context of white women's movement which is the white middle class movement that has come out of the United States. Those are not... [ Silence ]