00:00:08.020 - 00:00:21.440

I don't know how I can just go through with it, but go on. >> No, no, no, I don't expect you to. That's why I'm just sitting here to kind of guide you through. But we'll start off from when you were born, about your parents,

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about your school, where you went to school. I'm Dini Parrish and we're interviewing Anne Holliday in her home in San Antonio, Texas. Today is 8th of April, 2000. She was a WASP class 43W5.

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Seven. Seven. Sorry. Did you want to change your shirt?

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I did. Okay. And you can just start out and say, "I'm Anne Holiday," and go from there. Where you were born, when you were born, that kind of thing.

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Okay, good girl. Okay, I'm not very good at this. That's okay. My voice is terrible.

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I'm not good at this. You don't have to talk loud because I have a mic right there. Oh, yeah, I know. Well, when do you want me to start?

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Okay, go ahead and start. Well, I'm Ann Holliday, and I was born in Shreveport, Louisiana, on December 15, 1918. My mother was over there because the war was just about to be over, World War I. So she was over there with her aunt having me.

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But she lived in Albany, Texas. My daddy had a big ranch out there, so she had to come over there to Louisiana to have me. Anyway, we went on back to Albany and lived there through high school.

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I don't know there was anything particularly interesting. Did you have brothers and sisters? I had one sister, older sister, seven years older than Doc. So she and I were not too close, of course.

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Anyway, I graduated from Albany High School and then I went to the University of Colorado. I had a wonderful year up there. I got a Pi Beta Phi sorority and we had a wonderful time. Then I transferred down to the University of Texas in 1937, I guess it was, or '36.

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No, '37. Anyway— What were you studying? Geology was my main course.

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Why did you choose? I chose geology because I've always been interested in geology and anthropology. Colorado was such a wonderful place to take the geology course because they had the—oh, everything you go up in the mountains and everything that you studied in the books were

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all right there in front of you and you could see it. It made such an impression on students and on me. And then when I went to Texas, I continued with geology and anthropology and started with astronomy.

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I don't know why I liked those subjects, but I just did. And astronomy class is where I met my husband-to-be. We had a great time. Kelly: Where did you live while you were going to college?

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Ruebens: Oh, in Austin. I lived at a boarding house the first year with thirteen girls, fourteen girls. And then the next year I moved to Scottish Rite Dormitory. And then my husband came and picked me up one day with some other friends and drove

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me over to Georgetown, Texas. And he had a marriage license and we got married. He was working at that point down in Houston. He had graduated the spring before, the August before, I guess it was.

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And so I went down to Houston and we got married in Georgetown, it was a Justice piece. So it's what you might call an elopement, I guess. But they liked him, they already knew him well, and they were crazy about him, but of Of course, they were upset that I had done this.

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My sister had gotten married the year before, so she just took the amount of money that she had paid on my sister's wedding and bought me furniture for it. So that was great. I still got it, and I still use it, and I still love it.

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So I think rather than have a big wedding, I was happy to have that. Let me ask you, while you were in school, was there a teacher that influenced you one way or the other about studying? Was there a role model for you?

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Who was your role model in growing up? Not really particularly that I can remember. My daddy was my role model. He was so interested in all the sciences, and he just had me interested in them myself.

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Kelly: Your dad was a rancher. Steele: Yes. Then he had the Chevrolet agency there in Albany. It used to be Humble Oil and Gas, but it's, I think, Exxon now, or SO and then Exxon.

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Anyway, he was a bulk agent for that. So he was quite a substantial citizen in Albany there. But he's the one that really got me interested in science things. And your mother, when you were growing up, what did she do besides raise you?

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She was just a wonderful housewife and mother. And everyone in Albany looked up to her. She really did lots of good things for Albany. But Albany was just a little town between Abilene and Breckenridge in West Texas, north-central

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Texas where it was. And it's still a little town, smaller than it was then even. But then I went to Colorado and then I went to Texas. We got married and we lived in Houston and we moved back to San Antonio in '38.

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Let me ask you, at the University of Texas did you finish school? No I disliked one semester. I should have gone on and finished, but I didn't. So I just lacked one semester, so I didn't graduate.

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What was your husband's major in college? He was a business major. He went with Monroe Calculating Machine Company. He was with that.

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And then Litton Industries. Where was his family from? His family was from San Antonio and he was from San Antonio. It always lived here.

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So anyway, then we moved back here in '39, I guess it was, and then we built a little house out of it. Back here, too? We built a little house out in Tuxedo out in the TMI district.

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And then the war came along. In the meantime, we started flying in '37 when we were there. What made you want to fly? I took my first airplane ride in 1930 and I wanted to fly ever since then.

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I have my ticket still in there. It is in that book incidentally. Anyway, that is what got me. I just wanted to always fly.

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Tell me about the flight itself. What kind of airplane? My first flight was in Orion in 1930. It was a barnstorming deal where the guy was coming out and just taking people for rides.

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I don't know if Mother and Daddy would have approved that I took this ride or not, but I did. I wanted to fly from then on. So in 1937 we started going out to Stinson Field and there was a friend, Colonel Lapham,

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had what he called "Hangar Six" and he had these cubs and we started taking lessons. It was so expensive that I did not get too many hours in at first. And then after we married, he would take an hour and then the next week maybe I would get an hour and then we would go a month or two and then we would each take an hour or

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a piece. So we divvied it up. So we got our license and then about that time Civil Air – Civilian Pilot Training came in, CPT.

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And I don't think Daddy or Mother would have given it to me. So that's why I don't think it was five dollars. I just don't know. Right.

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But your first airplane ride was in what year and where were you? 1930, right there, in Orion. I believe that's the only designation on that ticket is Orion. And this barnstormer came through and landed in a little cotton field north of Albany there.

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And people were all so excited. We all went out to see this airplane because it was a novelty, especially to have one land in Albany. And he was selling rides, of course, and I don't know where I got the money at that

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point myself, but I must have found it somehow because I got the ride. And he wanted to know if we wanted to jump from the parachute and I said, "Oh, yes." He said, "Well, we have to have your permission from your mother or daddy." So of course they would not give me that permission.

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So that was the end of that. But I was always interested in it. And then when we started flying Chile and I in a little cub, Piper Cubs, which I am We would take an hour in Austin, I would go out to the Lair Field there and we would take

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it. They had a Roncas out there. But when CPT came on, Civilian Pilot Training, that was great because they took one girl for every ten men.

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I happened to be able to be lucky enough to get in on the class. Tell us about how you were eligible to do that. I just applied and I don't know how. Well, I had to go and take my physical.

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But wasn't it for girls in college or had just finished college? No, I don't remember the requirements. I just don't remember the requirements. But I did have some hours flying that I had been going through for a year or two before

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that came on, so I was eligible to get in and they let me in. And it was really great because the ground school was good and the flying was really fun and good. And I thoroughly enjoyed it.

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And Shirley, my husband, was doing the same thing at the same time. Sometime we'd be out at the field at the same time and fly. Then we went on and got into secondary, which was to get our instrument rating. And well, I guess it was a commercial, I think, instructor's rating anyway.

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We went on and took secondary, and I was lucky enough to get in on that. So I was real pleased. Do you remember how much it cost? It didn't cost anything.

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It was government training. Do you know why they were doing that at that time? I don't know why they were really letting the women in, except at that point I think The women were beginning to push and saying they needed things too.

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They needed to do things. I do not know why. Kelly: Was this after Pearl Harbor? Russell: Yes, yes.

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See this was 1940 when CPT started. And that's when we went on and then we could really afford to go on and get our licenses, which we did, of course, through that. And then he immediately got accepted in the Navy.

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They called him AVT, Aviation Volunteer Trainee or something, I've forgotten what that was. So he went to Corpus Christi and was an ensign. I stayed up here in San Antonio and we had a little plane about that time. We had a tailor craft and I would fly down there on the weekends or any time.

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I would go down there and see him and all, especially when he would get off. So I guess I just went on the weekends. Then in '42, September of '42, he got sent to Floyd Bennett Field in New York on Long Island.

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And Floyd Bennett Field was part of Idlewild Field, which is all now JFK. But that's where the Naval Air Station was. And he got sent up there. So I went along too, and we lived in Forest Hills, which was really an elegant, wonderful

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place to live. A lot of our friends were there at the Forest Hills Inn, were just living there. of Navy ship—anyway, they were on ships. And some of them were at the Naval Air Station.

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But we had a good group up there, but it was so hard living in New York during that part of the war. Everything was rationed so tight. We were new there and all, and the storekeepers wouldn't let us have anything but Ms. Goldfein

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over here would come in and slide her a pound of ground meat. I didn't see that at all. We didn't get any of that. But she had been trading with him for fifty years, so he felt like he ought to do it.

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But anyway, it was pretty bad. New York was still glamorous to us, but it was, I am sure, much quieter than it normally would be. The traffic lights downtown had a little square in them, the red one and then the green one.

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Every two blocks was a traffic light, and that's all that you could see. You had to have good eyesight to watch traffic lights, because you had to stop no matter which block you were on and wait for traffic to go through. It was most interesting.

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But of course, we didn't drive much because of the gasoline rationing and all. We did have our car up there. We drove up there. But then when I just got so bored with it, and about January I went down to Jacqueline

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Cochran's office. She had a big, fancy office there in one of those big buildings. How did you know about her? I just do not know, except that I guess I was reading in the papers or something.

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I just do not know how I really found out about it. But I called and made an appointment. She said, "Just come down." So I went down and had quite an interview with her.

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And she said, "Well, she thought I wasn't going to have any trouble, that I could get in the WASP." Oh, I was so thrilled. Sure enough, it wasn't but about two weeks later I got notice that they had accepted

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me. Kelly: But classes had already started? Russek: Yes. Kelly: Students had already entered?

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Russek: Yeah, they had started, if you remember, in Houston in November or whatever it was. And they had a couple of classes that were in Houston and then they moved to Sweetwater. In January or February they moved, I don't know exactly when. Kelly: What month was this that you visited her?

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Russek: That I what? went and talked to Jacqueline Cochran and worked with her? Maybe like it was in December or January 1 and I believe it was maybe about a month later that I heard that they had accepted me.

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But I understand there was quite a review. I mean, they checked out all your background and your family and everything like that. So I guess it did take some time. Kelly: Do you remember about how many flying hours you had at that time?

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Ruebens: Yes, I didn't have too many. I guess I had about, I might have had about two hundred at that point. I must have, because I did have my commercial, so I think I had to have two hundred to have that.

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I do not remember right now. I keep trying that old log boat. What? What was your husband doing?

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Well, he was ferrying for Douglas and Grumman, and he would leave there and fly to the west coast to Terminal Island at San Pedro, California. Then sometimes he would bring a plane back to the factory, but mainly he would fly NATS, Naval Air Transport, back.

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Or sometimes he flew commercial, however they could send them. Let me ask you this, Ann. What made you want to go ahead and start flying? Was it a—

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I just got bored up there. But really, it was—and everybody was wanting to do something for the war. That was the main thing. We just wanted to do something.

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We wanted to get it over with. But we wanted to get into the thick of it ourselves. So that was one thing I thought I could do, which I did, I guess. But anyway, he was gone so much.

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He'd be gone like leaving the morning, and then I wouldn't see him for three weeks. Well, he couldn't let me know that he was leaving, so I never knew when to plan for him. And that got a little discombobulating.

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So I think that is why I just definitely decided to get in the WASP. Sweetwater was fairly close to Albany where I grew up, about seventy miles I think is all. So that was great.

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I thought I would be able to see Mother and Daddy, which I was. They would come out to Sweetwater and see me. When you left New York, how did you get to Sweetwater and what did your husband think about it?

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Roslyn: Well, it's all a little hazy because we made so many trips back and forth there and to New York and to California. But I think I came back on the airlines. One time I came on the train, but I must have come on the airline because I did not drive.

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I came back with a friend in a car one time. Kelly: But the first time you left to go to Sweetwater, how did you get from New York to Sweetwater? I get from New York to Sweetwater, that's what I'm trying to remember.

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I must have flown. No, I didn't. I must have been on a train. And when you got to Sweetwater, what happened?

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Did you meet other girls? Yes. Met the other girls then, of course, and didn't know a soul. It was all very confusing.

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They were very well organized, though, at that point. They had everything really under control, I can remember that. right into our bay and met the girls. And then—

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Kelly: Tell me about your bay mates. Rueben: About what? Kelly: Your bay mates. Rueben: Oh, they were just great.

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I loved every single one of them. One of them just died. I have her notice right there. I was real sorry.

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I hadn't seen her in so long. Let's see, how many are there? left. Yvonne is left and Alita and I. I believe there are just three of us left out of the six. One of them was killed in an airplane and

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one of them died of cancer two years ago. And Amy got Alzheimer's and I don't think Amy's with us anymore either. So there are just three of us left now. Kelly: Tell us about your routine once you got to Avenger.

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Ruebens: Oh, dear. Well, we would get up in the morning at bugle call at what, six? When was it? Six, something like six.

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We all got up real early and had a fight for the bathroom, of course. Threw on our old zoot suits, got in formation. I was flight leader and I had to get them out there and if somebody was still lagging, I had to really give them something or other about it.

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I remember the demerits that we had. If you had so many demerits, you were going to be washed out. If you were late for so many formations, I mean—and I did not like doing it, but I had to give them a demerit if they were late.

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That was not any fun. I think they all thought I was an old crow or something. But anyway— Kelly: Do you know why you were selected to be a flight leader?

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Russek: No. We were out. Old Lieutenant LaRue was giving us our exercises. I guess it was the first week.

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We were all lined up and all. And he took us one at a time and said, "Give some commands." He had already done face right and whatever they were, and he said, "Maybe you should try out for it."

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I guess he liked the way I did it, so he picked me as one of the flight lieutenants. Then after the first six weeks, when a new class came in, we got to be squadron commanders. commander, which was above the whole class. And then in about four months I was group commander.

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But chilly, my husband would fly in. He averaged getting in about once every ten days. The whole time I was out there, not regularly, once every ten days, but that was about the average.

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He would go maybe a couple of three weeks and then he would come in a week or two, a couple of times a week maybe. They didn't want the men flying in because it got to be so popular. There were so many military that were RON in there that they had to put a kibosh on

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it. But anyway, since I was in my position with Dede and Colonel—what was his name? Was it Hunt? I can't remember right now what his name was.

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But anyway, they said, "Okay." They let him come in. Kelly: And then where would you stay? Would you get to stay at the—

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Ruebens: Well, down at the Blue Bonnet Hotel. He would, and sometimes I could get off, which I did pretty nearly—not every time, but pretty nearly every time. Especially if he managed to come by on a weekend, then I could get off.

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Kelly: Ordinarily, what would he fly in? He would be in SBDs, or TBF torpedo bombers, or Grumman Wigeons. He brought in a Wigeon there a time or two. Different planes, everything that he was ferrying for the Navy.

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Kelly: Tell me about the girls. Oh, and Corsairs and Wildcats, he'd come in in the Corsairs and Wildcats. And of course the girls were all just thrilled to death to go out and see those airplanes. They'd study them and have their pictures taken by them.

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One time he came in, I was on a cross country in an AT-11, which I was in the 17, the bamboo bomber, Cessna, and had gone down to Gainesville or somewhere, I don't remember. And he came in in the meantime and had a wind shift. The front came in, wham, just as he was landing.

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So he dragged the wing. Oh dear, was he ever embarrassed. And he had to stay there four days and he wasn't even supposed to be on the field at all, but he dragged the ring and oh, he was just so embarrassed he couldn't stand it.

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I came on in later and I saw that plane down there and I was so excited that he was there and all. Then when I found out what happened, I thought, "Oh dear, poor Chilly." But they had to wire for a new aileron.

00:32:25.560 - 00:32:45.460

Anyway they got it finally fixed, but as I say, it took four days to do it. Okay, that's the end of the first day. Oh, this is, this is, this is... How the instructors felt about you, because having that many hours, I just wonder if that wasn't intimidating to some of those instructors.

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It would be very intimidating. Now, that would be, because I'm sure they would have known about her, because she flew the Spitfires and all. I don't know where they were particularly known about it. I can't think.

00:33:07.660 - 00:33:31.520

Kelly: Well, they probably knew it by the way you could fly, for one thing. Let me ask you about your instructors, about your first instructor, what airplane you flew first, and about your check ride. Tell us about training, what you did.

00:33:35.700 - 00:34:06.180

Well, we would fly in the mornings and have grand school and PT in the afternoons, or we would fly in the afternoons and have grand school and PT in the mornings. And of course, we took all of the courses that the cadets took, the male cadets did, and out here at Randolph or wherever else we were studying at that point or going.

00:34:08.800 - 00:34:29.260

But anyway, I can't think. We started off with PT-19s and I understand some other classes used the S&Js or what do they call them, but anyway, the bi-wing. But we didn't.

00:34:29.560 - 00:35:12.560

We had PT-19s and then we went to basic BT-13s and 15s. And then we flew advanced AT-6s, and then we flew the AT-17s, which was the Cessna, twin-engine Cessna, and then the AT-11s, which were twin-engine Beechcraft. And of course, among all that, we were taking Link Trainer and Morse Code.

00:35:18.840 - 00:35:29.860

We nearly went crazy with that Morse Code. But I think we all learned it well enough to get by. I know we did. We couldn't get by if we didn't.

00:35:30.900 - 00:36:01.680

But the thing that nearly threw me was physics. I never had had physics before. And oh, mercy, I was so happy to get through with that course and pass it. Well, we had aircraft and engines, meteorology, link trainer, Mars code, physics, theory of

00:36:01.700 - 00:36:06.820

flight, what else? Kelly: Math. Ruth: Huh? Kelly: Mathematics.

00:36:07.070 - 00:36:14.180

Ruth: What? Kelly: Math. Ruth: Math, oh, math, gosh, yes. Oh, that was terrible.

00:36:19.500 - 00:36:40.360

That is seven. They really put the wad on us, I tell you. I do not know how I passed it off because I was so dumb, but I apparently did. Thank goodness I did, because I would have been real unhappy.

00:36:40.780 - 00:37:00.640

Tell us about cross-country. Roslyn: Cross-country, oh, that was interesting. We wouldn't be going very far. I mean, as far as Lubbock or as far as Greenville.

00:37:02.660 - 00:37:14.740

Seems like we went to McAllen a time or two. Night cross-country was a little more exciting. I hated it. But every fifteen miles there was a beacon.

00:37:16.440 - 00:37:36.780

And you fly the beacon or you fly the "Dit-dah-dah-dit," which means if you did "Dit-dah" over here you heard that and you weren't on course. You had to get back to where the steady buzzer is. You went "Dit-dah" you were on the whatever it was.

00:37:38.240 - 00:37:57.020

Anyway, that was very hard. I don't know, it was tedious. And there is nothing like navigation now or even the navigation right after the war. We had airplanes after the war.

00:37:57.980 - 00:38:27.760

My husband died and navigation was a lot easier then than it was. We had to do all the—solving the wind drift and the airspeed and everything and plot a course every time. They did too.

00:38:27.760 - 00:38:45.420

I mean, the Navy did too. My husband did. He was bored and he did that all as he flew along. Kelly: While you were at Avenger, as a class would graduate, what would happen?

00:38:49.020 - 00:39:15.160

Was there a ceremony? Of course, everyone was in their general pants. They were khaki pants and white shirt and an overseas cap, and that was our only real uniform.

00:39:17.200 - 00:39:49.460

And we would all be in flights and squadrons and march in review for the graduating classes. And then Jacqueline Cochran would hand us our wings and our diplomas, and that was the happiest day, I think, of my life. But that was really fun.

00:39:50.010 - 00:40:06.700

Kelly: While you were in training, did you know any girls that washed out? Russek: Yes, of course. Half of them washed out of each class. Every class came in with anywhere from 101 or 102 to 106 or 108.

00:40:09.840 - 00:40:28.800

By the time they graduated, only fifty to fifty-five were left of that class. I think every class that was there was pretty standard procedure about the way it worked with all of them. Yes, and oh, it was so sad when they would wash out.

00:40:29.660 - 00:40:48.980

We would all cry with them. Kelly: Why would they wash out? For lack of flying skills, but mainly lack of skills, they did not pass their Army check rides.

00:40:50.440 - 00:41:12.900

That would be the main reason. I can't think of—then there were a few that were—we had to watch out for demerits. They just would go away and not be in until the next morning and things like that. They went pretty quick.

00:41:13.160 - 00:41:38.980

We did not feel sorry for them at all. But there were not many of those, but there were some. Kelly: Did any of your bay mates wash out? One of them, Verna Turner, she was washed out and then she and four others were in an

00:41:38.980 - 00:41:52.580

Army plane. They were heading to one of the Army bases. They were going to be, I think, instructors. They could go and do civilian instructing.

00:41:53.540 - 00:42:20.080

the plane crashed and killed them all. There were two of our class in that plane that crashed. She washed out and I think all others stayed in. I believe all five of us graduated.

00:42:20.820 - 00:42:49.000

Ms. Ferna was the only one that washed out. Kelly: While you were in training, were any of the trainees killed? Litz: None in our class, but yes, there were one or two. One girl took off at night flying in a BT, took off south over the road and lost her

00:42:48.860 - 00:43:12.100

engine and went down into that cliff area over there and took out all of the electric lights for the whole field when she did. She survived, however. We never could and she could not figure out how she could have survived where she hit,

00:43:12.380 - 00:43:30.240

but she did. I know we were without electricity and the field was out without electricity. They had all these students up that were night flying. And night flying was an awful chore.

00:43:31.260 - 00:43:53.500

There were four zones, each corner, and you flew in three levels, 2,000 feet, 3,000 feet, and 4,000 feet. And you were assigned to someone in a level. And you went up there until they called you down, the field called you down for landings.

00:43:55.540 - 00:44:09.640

And it was the most boring thing that ever was to go around and around and around and around. But you had to keep your altitude because you might run into one of the gals up above you or below you, so you had to stay right where you were.

00:44:11.080 - 00:44:25.600

Is that the way you all did? night flying, that zone flying. I didn't like it at all. Kelly: Of all your experiences at Avenger, what is your most favorite thing that you

00:44:25.700 - 00:44:34.540

did? McMillan: The most favorite thing that I did? Flying the AT-60s. Oh, no.

00:44:34.540 - 00:44:53.880

It was playing Red Baron and whoever it was up among the clouds and chasing each other. We would go chasing each other around and then all at once there they would be, "Oh, we used to have more fun doing that. We weren't supposed to, but we did it."

00:44:53.880 - 00:45:10.520

And I think everybody did at one time or another, but that was the most fun thing, was playing in the clouds with those planes. What was it, Red Baron? Kelly: I did not get to do that.

00:45:10.770 - 00:45:27.340

Rueben: Oh, you did not? Well, it was really—oh dear. It was pretty cumulus clouds and we would chase through and then we would go and then we would pretend we had gotten them.

00:45:27.340 - 00:45:36.560

Kelly: I know what kind of plane. You must have been in the '60s. That's what we were doing that in, mainly. Kelly: What was the scariest thing that ever happened to you at the venture?

00:45:37.460 - 00:45:54.820

Alvarez: Scariest thing? I don't know. I blew a tire one time on landing. Kelly: Which airplane?

00:45:54.820 - 00:46:16.460

I was in in 1917 and I blew a tire. I don't remember whether it ground looped or not, but it probably did. I don't know whether it did or not, but anyway, that scared me pretty good. And that was about the scariest thing.

00:46:16.780 - 00:46:36.100

Was there ever a time that you were apprehensive about passing a checkride? Yeah, I think I was apprehensive every time I took a checkride. I think everybody was. Those old army guys scared the dickens out of you.

00:46:36.100 - 00:47:03.320

You really had to be on your toes. But I don't think I ever gave a very bad checkride. I guess if I had, I would have been washed out, but I don't think so. Tell us about graduation itself.

00:47:04.610 - 00:47:13.380

Were you in uniform? Did you have a uniform? No, we didn't have any uniforms. We were still in our khaki pants, white shirts.

00:47:15.440 - 00:47:39.500

And then when we got sent out, we got our uniforms later on in the year. Did you receive wings the day you graduated? Russell: Yes, they gave us our wings and pinned them on us. Jacqueline Cochran pinned them on us all, which was real good.

00:47:41.920 - 00:47:57.620

Kelly: And then how did you find out who was there? Did you have some family that came? Russell: Yes, my family came over from Albany. It wasn't too far, and I had a bunch of friends coming over, too, so I had a big bunch

00:47:57.660 - 00:48:16.900

of people there, which made me real happy to see them. They were all very much impressed with it all. I guess I don't blame them. I think I would have been impressed, too.

00:48:17.050 - 00:48:44.500

Kelly: At this point, where was your husband? He didn't make it for my graduation, but at that point he was stationed out in Terminal Island in San Pedro, California. He had been transferred from New York out there, but I don't think he made it for

00:48:44.600 - 00:49:03.000

that. up afterward though and we went east and picked me up and where were we in? I think that was an SBD. We were flying along and they didn't have any floorboards in that big old plane.

00:49:03.320 - 00:49:16.800

It was huge. You could look down and you could actually stand up from the belly of the plane up to the level of where we were sitting. A man could actually stand in there.

00:49:16.900 - 00:49:40.680

But anyway, we were flying along the mountains there, what do they call them, the Smokies or something, heading for Greenville, North Carolina or South Carolina, whichever it was. And all at once I heard him. I couldn't talk to him because I didn't have a microphone, but I had earphones so

00:49:40.680 - 00:50:04.880

he could talk to me. And all at once I heard them cussing and, oh, he was upset. He had dropped the map and his book of radio calls and all that. And they were down there and there was no way he could reach them.

00:50:05.280 - 00:50:26.980

They were just in the bottom of the airplane, did not have floorboards in it. And he knew we were about ready to run out of gasoline. We were just about out. And so he just dead reckoned and found the airport and landed.

00:50:27.740 - 00:50:40.540

And just as we landed, started taxiing over to the line. It died. It was that close, running out of gasoline. So that gave us both a real thrill.

00:50:43.470 - 00:51:00.320

And uh. Kelly: While you were in training, were you able to visit your family in Athens? Ruebens: Yes, on the weekend I could run over, but I didn't have a car. But some of the girls did, and we'd drive over there and spend the night with them on

00:51:00.360 - 00:51:14.740

Saturday night or something. That was good. When you were flying, did you ever buzz a little bit? I buzzed Albany about once every week or two.

00:51:15.920 - 00:51:31.680

Daddy would run out in the street and I would see him downtown waving like that. Mother would come out and that was really fun. My sister was there, too. Yes, I buzzed them regularly.

00:51:32.460 - 00:51:46.280

And then every time Chili would fly over, he'd buzz them. So they got buzzed. They knew we were still with them. Kelly: When did you get your orders and what did your orders say?

00:51:46.280 - 00:52:07.160

Russek: Well, then I got my orders. We got our orders the day of graduation, and mine were first to go somewhere east. And oh, I was so upset. So Deedee knew I was upset, she knew I wanted to be out near Chile.

00:52:09.800 - 00:52:35.580

So they managed to get my orders changed to Gardner Field, Taft, California. And that was just great. And then, because I got to get out there near him, and it was just over the mountains, so So I could have an airplane and fly over and stay with him or he could come over and see

00:52:35.700 - 00:52:52.660

me. And we usually didn't have a place to stay. It was so hard to get hotel rooms during the war. And his very good friend, Buddy Rogers, that was married to Mary Pickford, we would go

00:52:52.760 - 00:53:08.140

up and stay at Pitfair. And that was great, and the guest house and pink satin sheets. I never had slept on satin sheets before. But Buddy Rogers, and then all of the movie stars would come and call.

00:53:09.340 - 00:53:20.980

And Mary would sit up there in a chair. They'd come and pay homage to her. But they called. We spent two Christmases and a New Year's with them.

00:53:22.500 - 00:53:41.760

So we got to meet all of the famous movie stars of that day. Harold Lloyd lived right next door and several other notables lived right around them there. And they would drop in most any time. It was a lot of fun.

00:53:42.780 - 00:54:10.160

Buddy Rogers had a music room up on the second floor and he had two baby grand pianos. My husband played the piano and the two of them would get up there and play until two and three in the morning. And just having a ball, everybody enjoyed that so much.

00:54:12.160 - 00:54:26.660

Kelly: Do you know how your husband became friends with Buddy Rogers? Was Buddy and Nancy— Rueben: He and Chili signed in at the same time in Corpus Christi, the same class. So they were together all the time.

00:54:28.780 - 00:54:51.460

They however got sent to California when Chile got sent to New York. So they were separated then, but they'd see each other. Kelly: What did you do at Gardner as far as your assignment? We flew it was basic training

00:54:52.440 - 00:55:07.060

float feel BT 13 and BT 15 and I just hated them But every time they went into the shop to get worked on we had to fly them before we could and check them out to be sure that they were

00:55:08.540 - 00:55:40.260

Everything was done to them. It was supposed to be done and that meant stalling them and spinning them and slow-rolling and snapping and different RPM settings and anything they told us to check out, we had to do. And the duty I disliked was when they completely overhauled an engine, it would have to be

00:55:40.180 - 00:55:59.180

what they called slow-timed. And you took off full power, but you had to throttle back to a certain RPM for so many minutes and then you'd advance. It was like in the old days when they had new cars in the '30s and all.

00:55:59.180 - 00:56:17.860

You only, your first hundred miles you drove them at 35 miles an hour or 40 miles an hour and then you could come to 50 and then you could race them. But that's the same thing with these engines. That was a little boring because it took several hours to run one of those tests.

00:56:19.060 - 00:56:38.380

Then the other thing we did was for night flying or for day cross-country, we'd go up and land at a field and check out the pilots as they came around, the cadets as they flew around. They would check in with us.

00:56:39.980 - 00:57:09.900

And then any time they needed some spare parts or something, we would fly up and get them. And then any trainer that was on the West Coast that was not flyable, they would send us up to fly them down to the Burbank to the main general depot where they could be repaired. But they were not flyable, but we flew them.

00:57:11.260 - 00:57:44.080

I was flying along one time and a Ryan, PT-22, he was a Canadian trainer, primary trainer, And it had big cylinders, had six cylinders sticking out all the way around the engine, front of it. And I was just flying along and all at once here came a cylinder.

00:57:45.300 - 00:57:51.680

And I ducked. I had to. I just thought. And then I was afraid it was going to hit my tail.

00:57:51.740 - 00:58:19.920

It broke off and just floated on off that way. And the plane made a little sputter and that was it, it went on fine. So I had to land at Palm Springs to get gas and the colonel then wouldn't let me go. Oh, I was so distraught because it was Christmas Eve and I was to meet Chili and we were to

00:58:19.800 - 00:58:34.340

go up to pick fare and a big party and everything. Oh, I wanted to get back so bad. It was the day before New Year's Eve. Finally the next day I said, "It's okay.

00:58:34.620 - 00:58:39.660

They let us fly anything. They make us fly them or whatever. Just give them to us. I'll fly it.

00:58:39.740 - 00:58:54.720

I'll get it down there. I promise." So finally the colonel let me take it and I took off with it and got it and got it down And that was a good deal.

00:58:55.680 - 00:59:15.180

Then Julie picked me up and we went on out to picture, I remember, and spent Christmas Eve with them. Kelly: What was that Christmas like? Oh, their Christmas, they had this tremendous tree, and they had two children they had adopted,

00:59:17.580 - 00:59:47.040

Roxy and I don't remember what the little boy's name was. They were quite young, they were about three and six, I guess. So of course they had a big Christmas for them, and then that's when all the movie people would call on Mary and bring her gifts and everything.

00:59:47.940 - 00:59:58.100

She was just like a queen. She really was. She was interesting. Kelly: Were you ever able to visit her on a movie set?

00:59:58.840 - 01:00:14.760

No, she wasn't filming at that point. No, I don't think she filmed after the '20s or something. I don't think she was in any more movies. Kelly: Did they know what you were doing?

01:00:15.070 - 01:00:33.660

Russek: Oh, yes. Buddy Rogers knew what I was doing. It was an interesting thing. You were speaking about the man that was on the Bataan Death March, my best friend from

01:00:33.720 - 01:00:51.780

Albany, Edwin Dice, Dice Air Force Base, named for him incidentally. Anyway, he was on the Bataan Death March. I've got his book over here that he wrote. But he got back at the end of '43.

01:00:53.600 - 01:01:16.640

Somehow he got out. was at Tharkfield and then went on the death march to Luzon or wherever it was they made a march to. But Edwin got out and then he was killed in February of '44 in a P—what was it?

01:01:16.800 - 01:01:28.300

Twin tail. What were those twin— Kelly: Thirty-eighths. The 38th with the twin boom tails, that's what he was killed in, right there in Los

01:01:28.620 - 01:01:45.300

Angeles. But anyway, they were to be there one night for dinner and Buddy had asked us to come up and then Chili called to see if they still wanted us and he said, "Well, maybe you better wait another night.

01:01:45.300 - 01:01:57.360

I've got some gifts coming in." I think he just wanted them. We said, "Okay, that's fine." Turned out it was Edwin.

01:01:57.400 - 01:02:21.260

We were just so sorry later, because he was killed about two weeks later. But that was all part of the fun, was going up to Pickfinger. Kelly: While you were at this air base, were there other WASPs there? Russek: Yes, there were two others with me.

01:02:22.250 - 01:02:49.600

And then when we left— Kelly: Where did you live? Russek: Well, I went on and got out that spring of '44, but about six more came in after We left, and one of Helen Baric and Dice Allen, and I believe they were sent up to Sacramento.

01:02:51.940 - 01:03:10.700

I don't remember where they were sent, but they had about six more sent in, so they were useful. Kelly: Tell us about your decision to get out. Oh, I just got tired of it.

01:03:16.520 - 01:03:54.380

I got tired of it, so I managed to get out and it was good. Kelly: And what did you do once you got out? Well, I went on over to Long Beach and we found an apartment and I stayed there then until he got sent to Dallas for night fighter training off of a carrier in Dallas.

01:03:54.540 - 01:04:19.560

It sounds funny, but that's where they trained him. He was just getting ready to go to the Pacific when we had V-J Day. So that was good. Okay, good.

01:04:26.400 - 01:05:05.600

Okay, let's go back and tell us about airplane rides that you had. I remember this one trip, I guess it was the same time that Chilly had dropped all his maps in the bottom of the plane and we nearly ran out of gas. I got on a Nats airplane and he refueled and took it on into Dulles.

01:05:06.880 - 01:05:35.960

He did not want to take me into Dulles in the plane, so I got out at Greenville. He had made arrangements with some friends that were flying this NATS. So anyway, we both went on up to New York and we went on over to Trenton, New Jersey, where he used to pick up his torpedo bomber.

01:05:38.040 - 01:06:01.000

This was the first cross-country I made with him. It didn't have back seats. There was a radar compartment and a bombardier compartment and a pilot in front. But they didn't put seats in the back, nor did they put microphones or anything like

01:06:00.960 - 01:06:12.880

like that. The bombardier, I mean nothing. It wasn't fitted out for bombs or anything at that point. So we couldn't figure out how I could fit in there.

01:06:13.520 - 01:06:28.880

Of course, I had my own chute. And so finally they decided, they came up with the idea that if they put a Coca-Cola crate sideways and then one on top of it, I could sit on that, on my chute. And I did.

01:06:30.680 - 01:06:47.800

It was pretty rickety flying all the way to California. I think it took us three days, maybe four, three anyway. But depending on weather, sometimes we could not get off late because they would not let them fly instruments.

01:06:49.380 - 01:07:08.020

So I would sit on that Coca-Cola crate. So it worked so well. Then the next time, I remember we were in an SBD and the same thing. We had to rig up some seats for me, a seat for me, and that's what we used.

01:07:09.660 - 01:07:18.040

Kelly: Were you in the WASC at this time? Ruebens: Yeah, but I would get off. Colonel Propper was the greatest guy. He was out there.

01:07:18.140 - 01:07:34.120

He was ahead of the Gardner Field. He was the colonel out there. He let me go, but then he would really make me work for the next week or two. He would put me to really work.

01:07:35.700 - 01:07:54.020

Send us to Tucson or Phoenix or somewhere to pick up planes and take them to Burbank. We were always going into Burbank. That was an interesting thing. There were two fields, Burbank and Glendale.

01:07:56.280 - 01:08:24.160

Glendale was first and then came Burbank, I think. They were so completely camouflaged that you couldn't tell what they were from the air. And they had warned us and had given us exact instructions about how the railroad went through Anyway, we had landmarks that we could tell.

01:08:24.940 - 01:08:54.500

So I remember Helen and Doris and I were flying three different planes down there. We came to this first field and we realized that it was a field. So we came on in and landed. It had netting over all of the hangers, camouflage netting, and all of the airplanes, the lines

01:08:56.260 - 01:09:16.900

where they were parked and all. You didn't see any of that. There were wooden cows out and scattered around and they painted roofs of buildings and all. Somehow they did it.

01:09:17.920 - 01:09:37.020

Really from the air, you didn't know it was an airport. You didn't know it was runways. Sure enough, when you landed and got underneath the netting, it was there. But anyway, all three landed and went over and parked on the line and found out it was

01:09:37.060 - 01:09:47.200

the wrong field. We were very disgruntled. It meant we had to go find the next one, which was the same way. And that was Burbank.

01:09:47.440 - 01:10:05.840

And so we pulled out of there and we were a little embarrassed, too, because we landed We went on over there and then we landed there. It was the same thing, but it was really the wildest thing. It had roads driving right through it.

01:10:07.460 - 01:10:21.500

From the air it just looked like a farm scene. Of course, it wouldn't be that way now because it's all built up, but then it was like it was out in the country. So that was real interesting.

01:10:21.500 - 01:10:38.460

Do you know why they did that? Yeah, that was because the Japs were all—they were just afraid they were going to come and bomb everything. And, of course, blackouts and submarines and all were all out there.

01:10:38.580 - 01:10:50.880

Submarines wouldn't have gotten it, but the airplanes, they didn't know when the Japanese were going to come back. They didn't expect them any time. way on the East Coast were the Germans.

01:10:52.400 - 01:11:28.900

And of course, the submarines came right up to Long Island and on up into New York Harbor. They just boldly came on in, but no one could caught them. I think they did finally sink one right off of Long Beach. We got a ship torpedoed right down here at Port Aranges, and they towed it up the channel

01:11:29.020 - 01:11:45.100

and down by that lighthouse there. It was there and we used to go fishing after the war around it because it was a good place where the fish like to come. But that was right here at Port Aranus.

01:11:45.100 - 01:12:09.120

It got torpedoed. They had to pull it up out of the way so it would not stop shipping down there. But it was all very serious, it really was. Kelly: When you were at Gardner, did they have blackouts on the base?

01:12:09.280 - 01:12:27.300

All the windows were blacked out. We were over the pump so it wasn't too bad, but I know there weren't any outside street lights and all. What would you do when you had to land at night at Gardner?

01:12:27.580 - 01:12:47.760

Were there runway lights? Yes, they had runway lights. One time I came in at night at Gardner Field after one of those night cross-countries and I thought I had the right frequency and I asked for permission to land.

01:12:50.120 - 01:13:09.200

Permission was granted and all and I landed. And they said, "We don't spot you, 695," or whatever your number was. I said, "Well, I'm right here at the end of the runway." "Well, we can't see you, blink your landing lights."

01:13:09.880 - 01:13:23.540

So I blinked my landing lights and didn't see me. We were doing S-turns, so I did S-turns with the landing lights on, fooling around. "What in the world?" I said, "What's the matter with them?

01:13:23.600 - 01:13:42.540

I want permission to go to the line." The guy said, "This is North Tower." Was that North Tower? Anyway, "We cannot spot you."

01:13:42.660 - 01:13:59.880

And it turned to North Island Tower. North Island Tower was a naval base down in San Diego, and I was there at Gardner Field. And of course the people in the tower in Gardner Field were just going crazy, "What's that plane doing out there?"

01:14:00.920 - 01:14:22.100

They were just doing all these S-turns and blinking lights. Oh it was a scream, it really was. And finally when I got there the lineman came up and he said, "What were you doing out there?"

01:14:22.100 - 01:14:37.360

He said, "Well, they couldn't get you." I said, "Yeah, but I was talking to North Island Tower." Of course, the guy knew he died laughing. But I had just gotten my radio frequency off just a little bit and had a good radio skip

01:14:37.500 - 01:14:59.920

to him. So that was a little embarrassing, too. The other time we were flying those Canadian PT-22s and we were taking them down to Barstow, which was a primary training base, Barstow, California.

01:15:00.380 - 01:15:15.080

Yeah, I think that's where it was. And it was the first time we had flown them. And we didn't really get to check out. They did let us, they did go with us a couple of rounds, shoot a couple of landings in them

01:15:14.980 - 01:15:35.700

We were not too sure about them, but they had different kind of brakes. I cannot remember whether they were toe brakes or heel brakes. They were different from what we were used to using anyway. So I came in first and I tapped my brake and I ground looped.

01:15:37.100 - 01:15:48.280

I was embarrassed, but I went on over and parked on the line. About that time, Helen came in and she did the same thing. She ground looped. And then Doris came in and she did the same thing.

01:15:49.220 - 01:16:05.980

Well, it was so funny. I got out of the airplane, stood on the thing, and did a bow like that. And Helen got a coat on and she got out and she bowed, and then Doris bowed. We had done it on purpose, because all the cadets were all running around out there.

01:16:07.140 - 01:16:29.140

We didn't want them to think that we couldn't fly their airplanes. Oh dear, that was really crazy. Kelly: Okay, well we'll go forward now. You have resigned and now you're up at where?

01:16:29.260 - 01:17:01.520

Long Beach, yeah, and we got an apartment there. As I say, pretty soon he got sent to Dallas that summer. '45, yeah, that's when B.J. gave it. So I guess we were there for about eight months in Long Beach, eight or nine months.

01:17:03.070 - 01:17:16.160

Kelly: What did you do while he was flying? Ruebens: Well, I did not do much of anything. I just fooled around with a bunch of Army wives there that were their husbands, or Navy wives.

01:17:16.440 - 01:17:33.540

We just fooled around. We did not do anything. It didn't do anything that was constructive, as it is. I did get bored and I wish that I hadn't gotten out at that point.

01:17:34.520 - 01:17:55.580

But then I got pregnant and so I had Betsy September of '45. Thank goodness, she did not have to go fight night fighters off of a carrier deck. I was suicide run. Kelly: Where were you when she was born?

01:17:56.040 - 01:18:32.000

I went on up to Albany and stayed with my mother at that point and then he got out and I had him and then let him go. I know it. I am getting ready to have this recarpeted. I have to. The balls just have hit it up something fierce.

01:18:32.480 - 01:18:53.000

Kelly: You had your little girl in Dallas? Steele: No, I went on to Albany then and had her. Kelly: And was Chili there for her birth? know. They had sent him back to Corpus, so he was in Corpus. I stayed there in Albany

01:18:53.180 - 01:19:23.960

until we found an apartment here in San Antonio. We had sold our house that we had built in We didn't have any place to go, but we got an apartment here and he got out. He was out, so that was great. And then we were there for about three years while we were building this house.

01:19:28.800 - 01:19:42.920

I've been here ever since. Kelly: So what did Shelly do? He was with Monroe Calculating Machine Company at that point, when all the calculators went to have the big old heavy machines.

01:19:43.780 - 01:20:11.140

He would really get a bang out of these computers now, I'll tell you. But then he went with Litton Industries and it was the same thing, business machines. And then he was a stockbroker. Kelly: But you moved into this house when?

01:20:11.670 - 01:20:25.280

Roslyn: In March of '49. Kelly: And you moved in with one little girl? Roslyn: Uh-huh. And then Barbie came along.

01:20:25.580 - 01:20:41.640

Yeah, I bet she was born in '45. And then Barbie came along in '50. She was born while we were living here. Did you ever fly again?

01:20:42.380 - 01:21:03.680

Yes, we had planes. He had Beechcraft Bonanzas. I think every time, I do not know, we had a series of about three different ones. And then the last one was a Cessna 220, and that was a highway.

01:21:05.160 - 01:21:22.980

That was a great plane. But then when he died, there wasn't any reason for me to keep that expense up. Kelly: So when you had these airplanes, where did you keep them? When did you fly?

01:21:24.260 - 01:21:50.820

On weekends? Well, he used it in the business a lot and I would go with him. And then we would fly up to Colorado or take little trips to Grand Canyon or somewhere. But usually he had such a big territory that he used it in his business.

01:21:51.320 - 01:22:00.280

Would he let you fly? Oh yeah, I would. I flew. Kelly: How about the girls?

01:22:00.480 - 01:22:13.140

Were they interested in flying? Smith: They both took lessons, and they neither one got into it very much. Barb didn't like it at all, my younger daughter. She didn't like flying at all.

01:22:13.520 - 01:22:24.840

She still doesn't. She doesn't like any part of it. But Betsy enjoyed it more than Barbara did. She's the older.

01:22:25.160 - 01:22:48.640

Kelly: And the girls went to school here in San Antonio? Litz: Yeah, they went to school here in San Antonio. And then Betsy went to the University of Colorado for four years, three years I guess, and then Then she moved down to the University of Texas and graduated from there.

01:22:51.160 - 01:23:10.980

Barb went to the University of Texas, went to SAC for a while here, San Antonio College, and then she went to the University of Texas. Then she went to Denver to an art school up in Denver. And then she got married.

01:23:16.280 - 01:23:36.820

So she has two children now, one sixteen and one eleven. Her daughter is sixteen, an eleven-year-old son. And Betsy has two daughters. They're in their twenties.

01:23:38.400 - 01:24:06.600

I can't remember exactly their ages. One of them is married and lives in Raleigh, North Carolina, and Catherine is not married, but she lives in Los Angeles. She is in the film business, so she is enjoying it, but it is hard work.

01:24:08.800 - 01:24:29.980

Tell me about your hobbies. My hobbies, well, I paint and I wood carve, whittle. Where did you get this love from? How do you think that you have come to like this?

01:24:29.980 - 01:24:43.220

I don't know. I just have always wanted to do something. I've always done something that is working with my hands or something. I've always done that.

01:24:44.220 - 01:25:15.800

I just loved painting and I loved wood carving. I've done a good bit of that. Kelly: When did this love first manifest itself, that you started doing this? Oh, that was not until I started painting in, oh golly, in about the early sixties,

01:25:15.800 - 01:25:34.800

I guess, or the late fifties. I liked to do them all. I like oil and I'm no good at watercolor, but I enjoy trying it. But oil paintings is what I like.

01:25:35.880 - 01:25:44.320

Acrylics. Did you start this while Chili was still here? Yes, yes. He died in '74.

01:25:46.580 - 01:26:20.340

I hadn't been wood carving, no. I didn't start wood carving until the mid-seventies. I needed a good outlet and that really gave me one, so I thoroughly enjoyed that. Then I also, in the mid-seventies, started escorting tourists to Europe and selling them

01:26:20.400 - 01:26:41.740

and escorting them and all in different places. Guatemala and where all else did we go, South America and Europe and all. So that kept me busy too. And then I quit doing that and started traveling on my own.

01:26:42.990 - 01:26:58.880

Kelly: Of those trips that you were in charge of, tell me about the one that you enjoyed the most. Russek: Oh, gosh, they were all great. I would plan them all just like I wanted.

01:26:59.260 - 01:27:20.380

I planned them so that when we landed at an airport and then get a bus, our own bus, and then do like regional all around and then leave from the airport. I didn't go any hop, hop, hopping on and off airplanes here and there. You waste whole days doing that.

01:27:22.520 - 01:27:37.180

So they were really fun, great trips. It didn't usually take more than fifteen, eighteen people. Were they both sexes? Both sexes?

01:27:38.260 - 01:27:48.560

Men and women? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. What were you interested in, what was their main interest in seeing? Just antiquities.

01:27:51.020 - 01:28:14.900

Museums? Yeah, oh yes. We had a courier that would meet us over in Europe, and he would speak all the languages, any language we happened to be going by or through or something.

01:28:15.860 - 01:28:35.100

So it was great because he really took over and did everything. I didn't have to do anything, I just enjoyed the trips. But my main job deal was just trying to sell the trips and get people to go. We had a lot of luck.

01:28:36.260 - 01:29:05.480

When you were on the trips, what interested you the most of the things that you saw? What is the most outstanding thing that you remember that you saw on these trips? Steele Oh, mercy. I do know that Omaha Beach, that was most impressive, and that cemetery there, oh, that

01:29:05.340 - 01:29:30.960

was really an impressive thing. Mont Saint-Michel there, that's the most fascinating place I think I've ever been. That is a big old monastery that's out on the island and they're off of Normandy, off the Normandy Coast.

01:29:32.200 - 01:29:50.660

And the tide comes up and it's out there and the tide goes down. There is a causeway across Corson Drive now. But that was a fascinating place. Oh, I don't know, I just like antiquity.

01:29:55.900 - 01:30:18.420

I miss traveling. I haven't been in several years and I've got to start again. Kelly: When you traveled on your own, where did you choose to go? McMillan: Well, every place that I hadn't already been, plus places I had been.

01:30:19.700 - 01:30:57.860

The last couple of years I've gone over with my daughter, Betsy, and her husband, Betsy and I took a trip last spring to Paris because Catherine was in school there. So she and I went over there and we rented a car and drove all through southern France and Switzerland.

01:30:59.520 - 01:31:17.400

Bet you spoke such fluent French that we could get by with it. I could not have done that by myself. But we had a great trip then and I thoroughly enjoyed all of that. Kelly: What was she studying?

01:31:18.680 - 01:31:35.620

Katherine was studying art and I think there were some film classes over there too, but art was the main thing. She would get to go to the Louvre. She kept a painting going there and she would copy it.

01:31:36.500 - 01:31:51.740

A copy was sitting in there copying a painting. We went there and she rolled it out and showed us. She said it was a lot of fun because people would come by and look at her and look at what she was painting.

01:31:55.040 - 01:32:31.260

But that was quite an honor to get to go in the Louvre and paint, copy picture. Do either of your daughters have that same talent? Yes, well my granddaughter, she's quite an artist. And Lindsey, no, I don't think the other three grandchildren are painters.

01:32:33.220 - 01:32:56.780

No, they aren't. And as you look back at the WASP and remember the times at that time, what do you think that the legacy of the WASP will be? Well, I hope it will be an inspiration for future generations of women.

01:32:59.580 - 01:33:23.920

Just that they can do it, they can do something if they want to try hard enough. And they certainly are doing it now. The military has got many, many women pilots and so do the airlines. So I don't know, they tell us that we WASP were more or less a pioneer in that field

01:33:23.920 - 01:33:37.040

and showed that we could do it. That's the only thing. Have you any thoughts on that subject? Kelly: That's why I asked you.

01:33:37.400 - 01:33:57.700

Ruthie: I don't have any thoughts on that. Kelly: Looking back over your life, what is the one thing that you have done that you you are the most proud of? Oh, mercy me.

01:33:59.920 - 01:34:15.300

Well, I don't know. I can't think of anything. Maybe being a wasp. Yeah, I'm proud of that.

01:34:15.380 - 01:34:37.560

I'm glad I did. At the time, I didn't think it was anything outstanding, but I'm glad that I did. I guess being a WASP was the thing I'd be most proud of. Do you need to stop it?

01:34:38.170 - 01:34:49.060

Well, let me ask you while I've got this still rolling, what's your favorite word? Word? Word. W-o-r-d, word?

01:34:49.180 - 01:34:59.520

Uh-huh. If you had to have a favorite word, what would it be? Fantastic. I like that one.

01:34:59.640 - 01:35:18.480

That's the only word I can think of right now. If you, in fifty years from now, when your grandchildren and great-grandchildren and children in America are looking at this and listening to your voice, what would you like to tell them?

01:35:19.380 - 01:35:48.580

What is important for them to know? Oh, mercy me. Well, I can give you a minute because I'm going to stop you. Yes, it was painted in 1835 in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania when she and my great-great-grandmother

01:35:52.900 - 01:36:16.440

got married and he was up there getting his medical degree and it was their honeymoon. And that is about all I know about it. It has been not proven, but we do not know that it was an Ottoman work. They seemed to think it was Ottoman that painted it.

01:36:19.500 - 01:36:41.440

And she's sweet looking. I have a little grandniece that looks just exactly like her. See how I can... That's extraordinary.

01:36:41.440 - 01:36:56.800

Were you there? That's just a picture Didi gave me. But I was at that, I was in Sweetwater. I'll just turn off the focus so I can focus it myself.

01:36:58.620 - 01:37:13.060

This one you can just, it's on the side here. This shiny one. Why don't you just tell her when that was taken. That was taken while I was at Sweetwater.

01:37:13.800 - 01:37:28.260

How many? Do you remember anybody else that was married? Oh yeah, there were a lot married. Mickey Axton in our class was, she had a baby.

01:37:29.540 - 01:38:11.700

I think she was about, just about nine months old when Mickey went and left her with her mother. That's wanting to fly bad. It is. I took the picture. Oh yeah. You know the person with the camera doesn't get to be in the pictures a lot. No. Are you in any of these? Yeah. Not on this page I don't think. No. I took those pictures.

01:38:15.660 - 01:38:40.120

There's some cute girls. If you were in it that would be good. She was a bay mate of mine. Now this is Mickey Axton. She's the one that had the six months old or nine months old baby when she went in. Oh, it was taken upside down. Hello. Yeah, they're lying on the on that

01:38:40.340 - 01:39:02.780

silly desk. And there's a table or whatever it was we had. Here I am. I'm leading a group. Oh, that's great. Marching practice. Yeah. And then this is your bay. This is our bay. And did I take it? I must have because I'm not in it.

01:39:04.660 - 01:39:30.540

And then here we are all in the bay. Who's on the pole? Oh that's this girl right here. Maureen Abramson. Is that the one? This was out at the auxiliary field. Okay. Yeah. Remember the old truck that would take us out there? And that was the ladies room.

01:39:32.700 - 01:39:40.340

I don't know what the instructors did. I know they just... They didn't have to. That mesquite wouldn't hide very much.

01:39:40.640 - 01:39:57.540

No. It looks like you had a fun time. Oh, we did have a fun time. You said it was like a sorority. Well yeah it really was. I mean it's the way it is now.

01:39:58.860 - 01:40:23.720

Now whose graduation is this? Do you know? Did I ride on it? No. Nope but I think this is I. So it was one of the latter ones. Those are just planes. Yeah but there are people in the planes. Is that you? No. No? That's the wishing well? No, it was a cement

01:40:24.640 - 01:40:39.880

where they got the water when they were building the sidewalks for our barracks. Oh. She went and got in it and the contractor heard about it and nearly came unglued. They took her in and bathed her down with soda

01:40:40.060 - 01:41:02.100

and everything. He said, "That's lime water!" They were mixing concrete with it and lime and you know and oh they so they took her in to the infirmary and bathed her down and washed her down with soda and everything she survived. Bless her heart though she died last year.

01:41:10.980 - 01:41:38.300

Well, oh that's a great picture of the cattle truck. Yeah, there's the cattle truck. Yeah, it's hard to focus. I'm in that one right there. I am. There's my bae, and this is a gal that was killed. No, this one right here. Later.

01:41:40.640 - 01:41:52.240

There I am and there's Chitty. In front of the bay. There you are. He looks like a lot of fun.

01:41:59.300 - 01:42:10.680

Is this, there's Cochran at graduation. Mm-hmm. I don't know which class it was or did I write it. Are you in this marching picture? And that one?

01:42:14.180 - 01:42:21.040

Or maybe the one at the top? I don't think so. Since you're the flight lieutenant? By that time she was probably the group commander.

01:42:22.180 - 01:42:30.900

And then, get that one. This is just a bunch. Here was, oh, there's Lieutenant Leroux. Oh, he was still there.

01:42:31.520 - 01:42:52.480

Jack Leroux. doing our exercising. And this is the pool at the officers club? No. That's a little joke. That's a big joke. Now that's the sweet water. I can't look at that. Look at the flight line with everybody lined up.

01:42:53.410 - 01:43:04.460

This has got to be another graduation. That's not her, I don't think. Yeah, it is. Oh, is it?

01:43:05.260 - 01:43:21.920

It sure is. And how are they? I wonder why the flag's at half staff. Half mast, or whatever you call it.

01:43:22.540 - 01:43:28.480

It looks like a mast. Somebody died. Could be. I don't know.

01:43:29.680 - 01:43:40.920

Sammy thought that it was so hot that day, he said, "Can you go take a swim?" Is this dragon, is that dragon something outside to sleep on it? Yeah, these are... Or just to get suntan?

01:43:42.000 - 01:44:05.180

Well, we slept out there. But, uh, what have we got? Chairs upside down or something? Turned chairs upside down, looks like. writing letters. Did you write a lot of letters to to Chili when you were in

01:44:05.260 - 01:44:29.100

training? I did write but he didn't save them. She saved them. Not all of them but saved most of them. We were staked out there at the field. They just got tossed around? Yeah, they got tossed around a good little bit.

01:44:30.510 - 01:44:38.560

You taking? Yep. Yep. These are those little PT-22s that we flew.

01:44:40.200 - 01:44:54.480

We were Canadian primary trainers. This is '43-2 graduation. Ah. So that was Ruth Helms' class.

01:44:59.280 - 01:45:13.860

That must have been a very proud day. Mm-hmm. I would think that would have been a really exciting time. And how exciting for you that your mom could be there, you know.

01:45:13.860 - 01:45:37.320

Yeah, that was great. My mother and dad both came over, and my sister, and brother-in-law, and a bunch of friends. How far was Athens from Sweetwater? Albany was just south of there. I love these pictures with the parachutes.

01:45:41.180 - 01:45:56.680

She went up to practice and did a stall and didn't have her seat belt. It flipped her out. She came down all right, the plane did too, but it didn't come down in very good shape. Was she in your class?

01:45:57.160 - 01:46:04.260

No. No. But I went late. I just took that picture of it when they brought the plane in.

01:46:04.680 - 01:46:12.660

Did you ever take a camera with you in the cockpit? No. I wonder who's taking these pictures. Oh, I did too.

01:46:12.960 - 01:46:29.240

Yeah, I took it while we were in training, but I never did after that. He'd take pictures when he was flying. Sweetwater... We were all lined up here for newsreel camera.

01:46:29.320 - 01:46:46.180

It was just late in the day. It was about 6.30 or 7 or 8 or something. I don't know what the date was. Yeah, that's what I say is so strange, how they would dampen us, say don't write home about it, don't talk about it.

01:46:47.080 - 01:46:52.480

Then they'd have newsreels. That's a wonderful picture. Yeah, now this is... Which one is Ann?

01:46:52.960 - 01:47:11.100

I'm not in there, but this is Betty Clark, and here's her. Oh, that's great. It just came out of the dusting crop. She and Pat Sullivan had a fire.

01:47:12.340 - 01:47:24.080

Everybody there, but I think I took that. And there I am, I am in it. And there's Alita. Oh boy, it was hot in those little barracks in the summer.

01:47:24.180 - 01:47:28.000

When were you there? What time of year? No, I got the winter. You got the winter. Right.

01:47:29.240 - 01:47:40.020

I had never seen snow before. You didn't see much of it there, but you saw it. Well, that particular winter we had a good snow because I have pictures of me out with it up to my knees.

01:47:40.100 - 01:47:54.820

Oh really? So we really did have a good one, huh? These look like very close. No, near Detroit, except—anyway, her father was big and it was something to do with all

01:47:54.880 - 01:48:05.260

that was automobiles. I don't remember what. It's amazing. you're the third Wasp that we've interviewed whose dad had something to do with an automobile agency.

01:48:05.510 - 01:48:33.740

Oh really? Yeah. Is that funny? Yeah. Millie Valrimple's father was a Ford. Outside of Austin? No. No. Great, great line. No, it was some little, I think it was Cisco. Cisco was just 30 miles from Albany. And maybe Ruth's was Chevrolet, but it's, you know, out of the six or seven we've three of them's dads were in the automobile. We were dunking somebody that had just soloed.

01:48:35.200 - 01:49:04.020

Did you get dunked? I didn't get dunked. I wasn't the first one. Nope. Primary. Isn't that funny how you remember the primary? I had David Lamb. He's still alive. He lives in Dallas. I think I had a height. Oh, I had a height. Did you have a height? Yeah. Oh, he was an old barnstormer. Yeah, I had Hyde, but I don't remember which one I had him.

01:49:06.220 - 01:49:30.120

Did you know Hazel? No. Oh, the Chinese. He was a Chinese pilot, I think, flying for the Chinese. That's cute. The ones with you in them. Yeah, because she's gonna be out of town pretty soon. Yep. Commander before I was.

01:49:32.260 - 01:49:58.960

Now group commander class. There's two classes. Yeah, the old class of two flights. And then group is head. Antonio. Holly Allen. Holly Grasso is now. That's a cute picture. And I remember seeing this one. Yeah. In a magazine article. Yeah, she's the one that had to speak there because I think her husband had just died or something.

01:49:59.590 - 01:50:18.860

She was supposed to be the speaker for the left to go to Detroit someplace. Anyway, I think he had just died maybe. So they invited me to come. He was really sick. Yeah, yeah he was. They've been coming down to Rockport. But Nancy and I went and it was a great group of women.

01:50:19.860 - 01:50:26.000

Look who that is. We know who that is. That's me. That's drip.

01:50:30.820 - 01:50:39.180

That's great. She had been combing her hair and getting all ready for the picture, and I landed and they said, "Get over here." There's the other one.

01:50:41.920 - 01:50:58.760

Group adjutant. Group commander. Okay. Yeah, it's got very shiny. Yeah, no, this is not, she's not in this. She's not in that. Not in that. Then let's pass over here. And we've got, we've got pictures of that.

01:51:02.260 - 01:51:32.620

That's a beautiful picture. Yeah. Oh, that'd be good. Okay, tell me, tell me about this picture. Tell me about this picture. Well, he landed to come in and see me and I was off on a cross country and when I came back I saw his plane there. I was so excited. He was there and then when he

01:51:33.200 - 01:51:42.180

I think Mickey came out and met me on the line. There he is. He did. It was unusual anyway to have Navy pilots coming into a...

01:51:42.320 - 01:51:55.380

Oh, yeah, I think it was. This is the ticket. The ticket, 1930. Ryan.

01:51:57.680 - 01:52:18.640

And I wish the pilot had signed it. volunteering for 10 years and I didn't even know it. Well it was because we have the only... Waco, Waco. Yeah right. It had nothing to do with Waco. I know it did. We just, we have, we have the hotels and the motels where the news people stayed because there are no...

01:52:21.000 - 01:52:43.840

Okay. This, I don't have a lens big enough for this. This is an extraordinary collection. This is a hobby. Hobby? You call this a hobby. There's got to much light behind it. I have a little bug inside.

01:52:43.860 - 01:52:59.720

It's very nice here, but maybe not doing a good 360 degree almost. It's like an aquarium here. An aquarium of extraordinary... I think that's an aquarium. Oh, I think they'd be priceless.

01:53:00.220 - 01:53:06.000

How would you ever put a price on that? Well, I don't know. It takes a long time to make. Sure.

01:53:06.940 - 01:53:16.020

And I think, well, my grandchildren are going to want some of them. Sure. I'm wondering how we show...

01:53:16.020 - 01:53:23.680

Kathy, she's the one that's... she's in charge of this new women's museum in Dallas. The $30 million...

01:53:25.980 - 01:53:50.960

I'm gonna get them each. They're robbing Red Breast. I'm gonna get them, I'm gonna get as many of them as I can up close and personal because they're all so extraordinary. And there's the big fish. That one's not going to show up as well. Come on now.

01:53:51.600 - 01:54:21.580

There we go. That's because I'm in the light. I feel like I'm in a museum here. That's the cutest little video camera I ever saw. Well thanks. It's all digital. Digital. That goes along with computer. Yeah. Now this one, if you're, now this one if your granddaughter is is thinking about doing, you said something about high eight? Did

01:54:21.960 - 01:54:30.940

Super 8 or something. Super 8? Well she's going to shoot on film then. So never mind, because there's just nothing that looks like film. She's going to come in and talk to you on film and that's...

01:54:31.460 - 01:54:44.000

There's no way anybody could shoot it any better than that. I'm going to see if I... I found it in the phone book I sent you. I told you that you can rent them. We have cameras and so forth for rent.

01:54:44.300 - 01:55:07.480

I've got to call and see if they have Super 8. Betsy has to be super eight, because I heard a process and Ed out there, it has to be a certain something or other. Get their ducks in a row. Turn their catfish around so you can see him.

01:55:09.960 - 01:55:33.240

I picked up all those rocks out at Canyon Lake and around in there, then brought them back and bleached them and put wax on them so they looked wet. Hot wax. What kind of wood do you use? Sugar pine and alaskan cedar and basswood.

01:55:35.440 - 01:55:48.220

And you just get a block of wood and start it. Yeah, I buy the block. And then cut it up with a bandsaw and get started on it. Maybe a hobby, but it's a gift. You know, it really is.

01:55:48.420 - 01:55:59.440

It's a hobby. I think God gives people gifts to fly, because I don't think we can all fly. I think that's a gift, too. This is a gift. You can fly, but you don't have a car.

01:55:59.440 - 01:56:07.300

I don't know. No, I don't think some people... I don't know. Maybe you could fly, but you wouldn't love to do it.

01:56:07.600 - 01:56:17.540

Maybe that's it. This is my first effort. I've gone all summer, so when I come back, I start all over.

01:56:17.880 - 01:56:25.640

Where do you go? I have a little house out in Colorado, near Barb's, out in Black Forest. Where is Black Forest?

01:56:25.900 - 01:56:30.580

It's north of Colorado Springs, ten miles. Oh, okay. - 7,000.

01:56:31.180 - 01:56:54.480

- Okay, this is a painting by Ruth. No, this is a painting by Anne. And this is another painting by Anne. I can't even tell.

01:57:13.320 - 01:58:25.820

This was painted by her great grandfather. I love to paint. The dolphin