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(audience applauding) Right and that of his fellow Russian Jews to leave Russia and live in Israel. The cause for his release from such a brutal sentence

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became a great international campaign. And early this year on a bridge in Berlin, he was finally given his freedom in exchange for a couple of Russian spies,

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which seems to be powerful the course. Now this is his first television interview in Britain. I'm delighted to welcome. And that holy Nathan Sharansky.

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(audience applauding) (applause) - You changed your name from Anatoly, which is the Russian name, to Natan, is that right?

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Or Nathan, as we would call him. Good, so how do you like to be called now? - Nathan, if you don't mind. - Of course.

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Now, had you always wanted to leave Russia, - Because you went through a conventional education then, were a brilliant student. - Well, I can't say that I always wanted to leave Russia,

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but I definitely always wanted to be a free person, free man. And during the first, I'd say 20 years of my life, I tried to become free by being like everybody,

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more and more like everybody. That means to be more assimilated Jew and more loyal Soviet citizen. And then I understood that I'm becoming

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more and more non-free. And the moment I turned back to my Jewish identity, the moment I declared openly that I want to leave this country and to join my people in Israel,

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I really felt myself free. - Yes, but you could have, I think you had been given permission to leave and you could have perhaps have got out if you'd been prepared not to create

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any trouble, but you in fact joined the Refuseniks and made yourself a prominent dissident, didn't you? You see, in fact, many people get refusal to leave, and some of them with the time are permitted to leave,

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but many of my friends are still in Russia waiting for 15, 20 years. That's why nobody knows. But definitely, if I wouldn't be so active,

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I probably wasn't in the prison. But it was also my choice, the moment I became free, I wanted to express my ideas openly, to express my sympathy and solidarity to other people

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whose rights are oppressed openly. It was part of my free life, and I didn't want to refuse from it. - But foolhardy, you must have known

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that the risks were great, that you could end up as you did in a labor camp. - Well, but the risk to come back to my life, to my previous life, was even less acceptable for me.

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I preferred to have that life which I lived than to become again the one who is compromising with the principles, who says one thing, thinks another thing, and so on.

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- You were sentenced to 13 years, as I said, in 1978. What were the charges against you? - Well, officially it was high treason in the form of assistance to capitalist countries

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in hostile propaganda against the Soviet Union and in the form of espionage. Espionage, it was my activity in sending to the West information about their problems.

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And in fact, it was falsified fully. But the main charge, assistance to capitalist countries, which was expressed in my everyday contacts with such people as you, foreign correspondents who

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are sending these interviews to the West, my everyday contact with the tourists who are coming from abroad who are bringing us Hebrew books and other Jewish stuff, and we're getting

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from us information about the situation with human rights in the Soviet Union. That was really, all this is true, whether to decide it's criminal or not--

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High treason, yes. High treason or not, it's up to you. They called it high treason, and you were there. You were in and out of prison then

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for about 11 years, really, before 1978, when they put you away for good, or almost for good, certainly for 13 years. Now, what was your routine in prison?

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How did you stop yourself losing heart, losing determination, losing the will to go on? - Well, the typical, the most typical day, the prison, you see, there are a lot of different regimes

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in Soviet prison, 18 different regimes of food, for example. It depends from your behavior, whether you will be at the top or the bottom of this regime. And I always had the privilege

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and enjoyed the lowest, almost always, enjoyed the lowest level, 9B. It means punishing cell, which is approximately 2 meters to 1 meter and a half.

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It's very dark, very cold. You don't have any warm clothes. You're given only a cup of hot water and a little piece of bread three times a day.

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Of course, nothing to read and nothing to write. And you try to keep yourself sane and not to give up to pressure of KGB because the moment you sign the paper, they want to sign, everything will change.

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So in order not to give up, to be saying, you try to think about the most dear moments of your life, to remember your people who are dear to you. You try to solve some mathematical problems.

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I was playing a lot of chess with myself. I was trying to discuss some problems with myself. At least I could be sure that the one who's talking with me is not more stupid than I am, so it's also a very nice day.

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But a lot of perhaps lesser people, or perhaps weaker intellects, crack under that kind of strain. You manage to keep yourself sane.

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And in fact, isn't it true that just before your marriage, they decided, because Nixon was in Russia, to let you out,

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and you didn't know that your wife had arranged the marriage? Well, it was approximately so, but not exactly.

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See, When Nixon had to come to Soviet Union, authorities probably decided that he wouldn't be glad to see too many Jews in the streets of Moscow.

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So I was one of those Jews who were preventively arrested. So simply they came to the place where I was working, took me suddenly, and I disappeared. My wife didn't know where.

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But at the same moment when I for 16 days was in the prison, she got permission to leave the country and was told to leave immediately, otherwise she will never have such an opportunity.

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And she was trying to prepare our chuppah, what's marriage in synagogue. There were also a lot of problems, and it was fixed finally,

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she got permission on the 4th of July. And on the 3rd of July, they said to me that I have to leave prison, but I always had the tradition

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never to do what KGB tells me. And that's why I said, well, I haven't yet finished reading the book. And I spent there for two hours more not knowing that my wife is waiting, that she organized everything and everything can -- it will -- can be too late.

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Then I came, then we had our cooper, and next morning she left for -- >> You were nearly -- you were nearly late for your own wedding because of -- >> No, I was not late. I came just in time.

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>> Of your bloody-minded attitudes with the Russians. You must have been about the most difficult man they've ever had in prison. well I can't say so but I think they had some problems you see I always liked the advice of Oscar Wilde one of my favorite authors who said the only way to get rid of temptation is to yield

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to it and I always had the temptation when KGB was saying me to do something to do quite the opposite and I followed the advice of Oscar Wilde. Well I said yes nearly made you late but then you married your wife, she immediately went off to Israel. How long were you separated? Almost 12 years. It must have been difficult

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reuniting with her again after all that time not seeing her. Well you see it's one of the most important resources of my strength. What supported me was the spiritual communication which we had with our wife. I also knew that she is with me, that our people are with me, that my country, that our friends all over the world are struggling together.

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And we tried to have contact, even when we have no letters, even when we have no meetings. Did you know much about, when you were in jail in Russia, did you know much about the kind of international protest

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that was going on on your behalf? Of course, I couldn't know a lot. During all these nine years, I had only two private meetings with my mother, when she could brief me shortly

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what's happening. But I could never imagine what's really happening. But once during the investigation, and after the investigation, they used against me

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the tape of Granada film about the demonstration in London. And I saw this film. It was really very exciting to see after all this long, long isolation from all the world,

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suddenly to see the demonstration, my wife speaking. And in fact, it was one of the most exciting moments. Although that was used against you. gave you hope?

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It didn't matter for me because I knew that they will do whatever they will use everything against me. So it was important that I saw suddenly this powerful support and I saw my wife speaking and I invited them to show it to me again and again and again.

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It was all the day. They became very furious. Suddenly they shouted at me, this colonel who was the head of a team of 17 investigators, that what are you doing here?

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Do you think these people can help you? They're only housewives and students. And so your fate is not in their hands, in ours. Finally, as you see, the students and housewives--

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It works. And then obviously, you're here to continue the protest, to continue to try and free the-- how many people?

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400,000? Yes. Unfortunately, Gorbachev said that there were no political prisoners in Soviet Union.

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And when he said it, I was one of those who don't exist with many others in the Soviet prisons. He said that there is no Jewish problem. 400,000 Jews who already asked for invitation from Israel

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got them and cannot apply. We have thousands of separated families. We have many prisoners of Zion, people who are only for their desire to study

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and to teach Hebrew, to have contacts with Jews abroad and to live for Israel for this Zion prison. It's a big national problem. Of course, I have many close friends,

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also non-Jews in Soviet prisons. and I'm concerned about the pledge. - Obviously you'll continue protesting. It's great to meet you and thank you for joining us.

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And may we wish you continued happiness with your wife. And of course, congratulations when it happens on the forthcoming birth of your child. - Oh, thank you.

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- Anatoli Nathan Shuransky. (audience applauding) [audience applauding] [audience applauding]

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