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A woman's place is in the church. Your message for the moment with Dr. Bruce W. Thielman. [music] [music] [music]

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[music] Let us continue in our worship by giving reverent attention to the reading of God's Word as it is recorded in 1 Timothy, the second chapter, beginning at the verse numbered 8. "I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands, without anger or quarreling;

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also that women should adorn themselves modestly and sensibly in seemly apparel, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly attire, but by good deeds, as befits women who profess religion. Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent.

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For Adam was formed first, and Eve, and Adam was not deceived; but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness with modesty." May God bless to us and to our understanding this reading from his Word. Let us pray. In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.

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Last week I discussed with you at some length, noting the appropriate and relevant biblical passages, the place of woman in the order of creation. We noted her place at creation, her place from the time of the Fall until the Cross, and then the place of equality she has once more because of the death of Christ upon the Cross.

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And I want to take this opportunity to express my gratitude to so many of you who have encouraged me after last week's message to continue our thoughts along this theme today. I'm especially appreciative of your kindness because you know when you talk to some people about women's lib, you get a negative, almost an irrelevant response.

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Some of the things you hear are comments like these, "Well, I don't want to have anything to do with women's lib because look at some of the terrible things some of those women are doing to get liberated." Well, there's no doubt there are some radicals in the women's lib movement. I heard about one group the other day that was called the "Women's International Terrorist Conspiracy from Hell."

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The abbreviation of that is the word "witch," and it's probably very appropriate. But the point is you can't judge an entire movement by the activities of some within it. You would not want the whole Christian church to be judged by the fact that there are some churches which will marry one homosexual to another homosexual.

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You wouldn't want the whole church to be judged by that, just so you can't judge an entire movement by the behavior or misbehavior of some who are part of it. Then there are those who say, "Well, this women's lib stuff is ridiculous because in my house, I am the one who assumes the role of leader.

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I believe it was ordained by God, and my wife is subservient to me, and we are very happy. It works, so the women's lib has to be wrong." Well, I'm sure things are very happy in your home, although I would like to have the opportunity to talk to this man's wife about it privately.

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The fact that it works means nothing. I mean, you know, if someone consents to be boss and somebody convinced to be boss, everything's going to work out just fine. A sadist and a masochist will get along just fine together,

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but there's no reason to approve that tactic. You can discipline your children quite successfully with a bullwhip, but that doesn't mean that using a bullwhip on your children is appropriate. In Russia today, they don't have much trouble with discord from young people,

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and we all know why. Would you suggest then that we should adopt the tactics of that totalitarian state in order to cut off all the commentary of our youth? You would never suggest such a thing.

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Sir, I would remind you that you're being loved in your household by someone who's not equal to you, at least by your definition, and if you want to go through life loved by someone who's inferior to you, that's all right. And if you want to run the risk of what so commonly happens in such a situation,

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that is, the woman giving herself over to a very pathetic narcissism in which she is constantly thinking about how to beautify herself in order to gain more sexual advantage, if you want to have that happen in your house,

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as it happens in so many houses where this is the case, that's your business. But don't say, sir, that because it works in your house, it is therefore right. That argument is absurd. Then there are those who say, "Well, women's ribs can't be right

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because I believe women are really superior, and I keep my wife up on a pedestal, you see. I want her to be reserved for the sanctity and the beauty and the specialness of the home." Well, that view, of course, is ridiculous

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because the scriptures nowhere teach that woman is superior. And I also wonder about this thing of putting woman up on a pedestal. I'm not so sure that she wants to be there, and I'm not so sure about the reason that you, sir, are putting her there.

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It seems to me that most often men put their wives on a pedestal in order that their wives might be an inspiration to them, that is, to the men. So who is being served, the woman or the man? And in any case, can someone who's number two be very inspiring anyway?

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It seems to me that it's not quite fair to sacrifice one half of the human race in order to inspire the other half of the human race. Then some people say to me, "Well, women's ribs can't be right. Men are obviously superior because, after all, God is a man."

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Now, that may sound ridiculous to you, but I've been told by members of this congregation that God is male. And of course that suggestion is almost so ridiculous that one hesitates to bring it to such a place as this.

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God is a spirit, and the spirit is without sex. The reference to the spirit of God in scripture is in the neuter. It is not masculine or feminine. It is to be remembered that in the Bible the masculine pronoun is commonly used

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because the Bible was written during largely the period of subordination in which women were inferior to man as the result of their first sin. We discussed this last week, and if you weren't here, you can get the tape of the message when you leave and catch up on things.

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But the point of the message right now is this. The fact has been done away with, and it's important to notice, too, that there's no suggestion in scripture that God is a man. So they say, "Well, all right, maybe God isn't a man,

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but when God chose to become incarnate, he came as a man. You can't say Jesus wasn't a man." Certainly not. I would never want to say that Jesus wasn't a man. It's altogether normal that when God should have wanted to become incarnate

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that he would come as a man. He came as a society to a society in which only men were listened to. It would have been an exercise in futility for him to have come as a woman. He came in the style which was appropriate to the time in which he chose to come.

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But it's interesting to notice even here that most of the attributes of maleness are not usually associated with Jesus. Jesus never chose to become a husband. Jesus never chose to become a father.

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There's no reference in scripture whatever to any part of the sex life of Jesus. Now, even when I say that phrase to you, "the sex life of Jesus," some of you draw back because it doesn't sound right to be talking about the sex life of Jesus.

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And the reason it doesn't sound right is because there's nothing in scripture which says that Jesus in any way, shape, or form asserted his maleness. As a matter of fact, if you look at the way he treated women, you discover that he lifted them up

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while the rest of that society at that time was still putting them down. His disciples were regularly astonished at his freedom with women and the way he spoke to them as equals. And I would point out to you that Jesus' first appearance after his resurrection,

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after he had freed both men and women, his first appearance was to women. If you're going to cite Jesus as your evidence, then I would submit that you argue for the liberation of women and not against it. And there are some who say, "Well, all the disciples were men,

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so men must be superior to women." Well, all the disciples were Jews, too. Does that mean that Jews are automatically superior to Gentiles? Would you argue that for one moment? Seriously?

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The fact of the matter is they were men because, as I said before, in that society at that time, only men were listened to. It was natural then that Jesus should choose men. And also, it's rather difficult to imagine women going on that three-year camping trip

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in which Jesus and his disciples were engaged. That would have been extremely difficult, to say the least. It was natural that they should be men. But remember again how Jesus honored women.

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And then some people say, just very simply, "Well, your suggestions sound good and all that, but they're just not biblical." What does that mean? When I talk to people about that and I ask them the verses that they have reference to,

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I find most often they're not able to quote any. Or if they are able to quote them, they don't know where they are. And when I press them to determine if they studied the verses, I not only find that they have not done so,

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but in many instances don't have the academic tools with which to do so. It means nothing whatever, my friend, for you to say that the Bible says this or that if you, in point of fact, don't know what the Bible really says. I think it's absolutely essential for us to pause a moment here

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to notice once again what we've noticed before. That the Bible must always be approached in a studious and a serious manner. We must seek to understand what the Bible meant when the Bible was written. Now in order to do that, you have to know the meaning of the words

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as the words had meaning in that day. Suppose I said to you, "I think you are very homely." You'd be insulted or else you'd be ashamed. In either case, you see, you would be taking that word "homely"

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on the basis of its definition in our time. Plain, unattractive, ugly. Now a hundred years ago in America, the word "homely" meant hospitable, warm, open, kind, welcoming.

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Now suppose you went upstairs to the attic and you found the Old Family Bible and in the Old Family Bible you found a letter from your grandfather to your grandmother. And in the last sentence of that letter he said, "Dear, I think you are a very homely woman."

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Now you would be doing a disservice to your grandfather if you went about saying that your grandfather called your grandmother homely, that he was so unkind and so unloving and so insensitive as to have said such a thing to her.

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That would be unfair for you to do that because when your grandfather wrote, "You are homely, my dear," he was extending her a compliment. "You are warm, you are open, you are kind, you are hospitable, you are lovely."

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This is what he was saying. And in order for you to understand that and faithfully represent him, you have to know what the word meant when he used it. Now we discover what a word means in the Bible

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by seeing how it appears in different contexts. Suppose I make up a word. Now here's a word none of you have ever heard before, "hinch and tail." None of you know what a hinch and tail is.

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I'm the only one who knows what a hinch and tail is. Now suppose 2,000 years from now, the year 4,000, you're in the midst of an archaeological dig here in Southern California and you happen to focus right in on my apartment there amongst the ruins

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and you find a letter in which I say, "I have just bought a new hinch and tail." What's a hinch and tail? You don't know what a hinch and tail is, but you do know that it's something that can be bought.

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Now it so happens that another archaeologist is working in another part of Southern California and he comes up with an old newspaper and he finds there that the brand new models of the 1974 hinch and tails have just come out. Oh, they're new models every year and they come out on an annual basis.

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Whatever the hinch and tail is, it's new every year. All right. Now someplace over around the Torrance area, someone is digging and they find a letter there and in the course of it, they find this reference.

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"My new hinch and tail is red, has power steering, and four doors." Oh, now you begin to understand what a hinch and tail is. You see, as you gather the different references, you come to understand what a hinch and tail is.

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That's how we discover the meaning of words in the Bible. We discover how the word is used in other places in the Scripture and how the word was used in other parts of the society at that time. And we put these things together and then we can come to a definition of the word.

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And that's part of what you always have to do when you study the Bible. And the other thing that you always have to do is this. You have to understand the Bible in terms of the cultural nexus of which it was a part. And you have to separate the eternal truth of the Bible from that culture.

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The Bible very readily accepts polygamy. Now you know what polygamy is. That's having more than one wife. In Deuteronomy it is suggested that polygamy is perfectly all right. Abraham was a polygamist and he's praised in both Testaments.

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Jacob was a polygamist, he's praised in both Testaments. David was a polygamist. Solomon was a polygamist. Solomon was criticized not for having too many wives, but for having too many of the wrong kind of wives.

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At no place in Scripture does Jesus say that polygamy is specifically wrong. At no place in Scripture does it teach that polygamy is absolutely a violation of the law of God. At no place is that taught. Would you then suggest that the estimated 35,000 Mormons in this country

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who are still practicing polygamy are right and all the rest of us are wrong? Certainly not. You understand that polygamy was part of the culture of that time. And the mere fact that it appears in the Bible does not mean that the Bible is saying that that cultural norm is to prevail in all times.

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This book is to me the Word of God written. It is absolutely infallible in matters of faith and practice. But that does not mean when I take the Bible into my heart and hide those words there, that does not mean that I approve of every cultural standard that's established in the Bible.

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That doesn't mean that I approve of polygamy. It is imperative, you see, that we separate the eternal truth of Scripture from cultural standards, and that's not a difficult thing to do. Now last week we examined the passages in Scripture

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which refer specifically to the place of women. We discovered that the Old Testament teaches that at the beginning in creation, woman was exactly equal to man. But at the time of the fall, she was punished, and her punishment was

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that she should be subordinate to man, that he was to gently rule her. And throughout the whole Old Testament this is the case. But then comes the cross, and the assertion of the New Testament is that with the cross the redemption of the whole creation has begun.

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The curse is lifted, just as the law is lifted as the standard by which we are judged. All sin has been atoned for. No sin remains except that which is not repented of. And because of this, you see, woman stands equal to man again,

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and it is a man's task and privilege to help her to the equality which is rightfully and totally hers. Now that's the whole testimony of Scripture. The overwhelming weight of the witness of Scripture is there. Last week, as I spelled that out, I examined each word

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and precisely defined it in terms of that time. And last week, I also at one point in the argument, just at one point in a 45-minute message, at one point I made reference to how his culture influenced Paul

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in some of the things he said about women. And after the service, one of our misogynist young bachelors said to me, making no reference to all of the exegetical work that had been done, making no reference to all of the textual material that had been advanced,

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making no reference to all of the definition which had been presented, making no reference to all of the historical background which had been part of it, this young man said to me, "I don't think it's fair for you to say that Paul is so influenced by his culture." I submit to you that I know a great deal more about the Apostle Paul than that young man knows.

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And one of the reasons that I know it is this. I understand Paul in terms of his culture. But this young man needs to wake up to the fact that the Apostle Paul did not live in a bottle with a cork in it. He was part of life in that day.

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And what he wrote and what he understood and what he taught was part of life in that day. And this must be grasped if one wants to understand what the Apostle Paul means. And when we approach the Apostle Paul, we must approach him separating eternal teachings from that culture. The doctrine of Scripture is that it's infallible when it speaks in matters of faith and practice.

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There has never been a time in the history of the Christian Church when any theologian, any theologian, has ever argued for cultural inerrancy. Why, imagine the things I'd be required to preach from this pulpit if we accepted such an idea. The Bible plainly teaches human slavery.

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I can come into this pulpit this morning and cite passages attributed to the Lord God Almighty in defense of slavery. Here's some of the things I could say. I could say, for example, on the basis of Numbers 21 and Deuteronomy 20, that all the prisoners we take into Vietnam should be brought home and made slaves.

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I could tell you, quoting the appropriate text from 1 Chronicles 2, that all foreigners who come into this country should be captured and made into slaves. I could argue on the basis of Nehemiah 5 and Exodus 21, that when people get into financial debt, they should be able to sell their children into slavery.

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The Bible teaches that. I should be able to affirm to you on the basis of Exodus 22 and Leviticus 25, that when a man can't pay his debt, he should be sold into slavery and his wife with him. I can assert to you on the basis of Exodus 21 and Deuteronomy 15,

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that every slave should be marked by having a hole bored through his ear, so you can identify him wherever you happen to find him. That's taught in the Bible. I could assert to you that female slaves could be sexually used by their masters.

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We could work off our hostilities that way, I suppose. The Bible also suggests in Exodus 21 and Genesis 16, that it's all right for a man to put a male slave and a female slave together, and force them to have children, and then raise the children of slaves too.

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Well, that's one way that we could take care of some of the problems of our society, isn't it? The Bible teaches it's perfectly all right to beat a slave. Exodus 21 explains that, just so long as you don't cripple him or kill him. And, of course, here's a new method of evangelism.

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The Bible teaches that a slave must follow the religion of his master. So let's all buy up slaves and make them into Christians. That's taught in Genesis, in Exodus, in Leviticus, and in Deuteronomy. Now, in the New Testament, slavery was practiced also.

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There was no difference in the slavery of New Testament times and that of Old Testament times, except it was crueler, because it had the Roman influence on top of it. And never is one word recorded from the mouth of Jesus against slavery. And never is one word recorded from the mouth of Paul against slavery.

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As a matter of fact, when Paul refers to slavery, it's in terms of a young man who ran away from his master, and Paul sends the young man back, and in the letter that he sends with the young man to the young man's master,

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he never says, "Free this slave." He never asks that the slave be free. Now, on the basis of the culture of that time, you see, I could argue from Scripture, quoting verse after verse,

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from the Old Testament and the New, and remember that as Christians, we don't believe one Testament is less inspired than the other. One of the oldest heresies in the Church is the heresy of Martianism, which says that somehow or other the Old Testament is second class.

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If I, as a minister, stood up, or if any elder in this Church stood up and said that he believed the Old Testament was less inspired than the New Testament, he could be expelled from his office forthwith. That is a false doctrine.

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We believe that all the Scripture is inspired, and the witness of Scripture talks about slaves, and there's no testimony in Scripture against slaves. Now, some people have attacked Paul on the kind of this.

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They said, you know, he was for slavery. I don't believe Paul was for slavery. Look what Paul says about mankind, about the dignity of a human being. I can't believe that Paul could say the thing

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about the dignity of mankind that he does and still be in favor of slavery. Why, then, didn't he say anything in opposition to slavery? Why, simply because Paul knew that were he to have attacked the institution of slavery at that time,

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the whole society would have come crashing down upon them in wrath, and the society would have never been able to hear the far more important message, which was, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved."

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Paul was more concerned about souls than he was about slaves. And his doctrine was this, "I will save the souls of these people, and then, as they grow in the grace of Jesus Christ,

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they will come to understand that slavery is wrong, and they will eventually free their slaves." And when he writes to Philemon, he doesn't tell Philemon to free Onesimus. He says to him, on the contrary, "Grow in your faith,"

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because he knows that if that man grows in his faith, he will no longer treat Onesimus as his slave, but rather as his brother in Christ Jesus. And Paul, looking forward to what's going to happen

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as generation after generation after generation of Christians proclaim this gospel, Paul says, "The time will come when there will no longer be Jew or Greek or slave or master or male or female,

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but we will all be one in Christ Jesus." Now, just the way Paul dealt with slavery is the way he dealt with the question of women. Look at a couple of passages which we missed last week

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and which I want to pick up this morning. In 1 Corinthians, Paul says, "Women should keep silence in the church. They're not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate."

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That's what he says. Now, why does he say it? Well, it's interesting to notice in the first place that Paul was inconsistent here, because in the 11th chapter of this same letter,

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he says it's all right for a woman to pray in church. Here he says that they are to keep silence. There he says they can pray as long as they keep their heads covered. There's an inconsistency here from the very start.

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But what's more important to notice is that most of the early Christians came out of a synagogue. They were Jews before. And in the synagogue, women were not permitted to speak.

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And in the society at that time, they were understood to be subordinate. So Paul approached the female question just like he approached the slavery question.

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Well, I get everybody all upset by bringing up this female issue. If I can bring them to Christ, as Christ grows in their hearts, they'll come to understand that the curse has been removed.

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And they will themselves lift women up to the place of equality, which they've had. As generation after generation of Christians come into the world, this is precisely what will happen.

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And Paul was right, because this is exactly what has been happening. Or look in 1 Timothy 2. 1 Timothy 2, Paul writes,

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"Let a woman learn in silence with submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men." She is to keep silence. Now, what does Paul mean when he writes that?

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Traditionalists always quote this verse and say that means there should be no women elders and no women clergymen. That's not what it says. The verse says, "Let a woman learn in silence.

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I permit no woman to teach." That means every woman teacher in the Sunday school of this church and every other church in the world should be eliminated forthwith. It doesn't say "teach" from the pulpit.

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It says "teach." That's all it says, "teach." No woman may teach. No woman Sunday school teachers, those great missionaries, like Lady Wanless, of whom we spoke here this morning,

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who have gone out into the mission field and have labored there teaching the ignorant, teaching medicine to those who didn't know how to take care of themselves, teaching farming to those who couldn't raise enough to feed themselves.

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Those women engaged in that teaching. "Women are not allowed to teach," Paul says. "Call them all back from the field. That was all wrong. That was all sin to be repented of."

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Certainly not. Why, Paul himself praises a woman teacher. In the 18th chapter of Acts, Priscilla is pointed out as a good teacher. And in the 16th chapter of Romans, Paul compliments her

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for her excellence in Christian wisdom. Now, how can he say both things? How can he say, "No women are to teach," and then praise a woman teacher? Well, you see, Paul was writing to Timothy.

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Timothy was a young clergyman just starting out. Paul says to him, "Now, Timothy, this is what I've learned to say. I don't let women teach or get up and lead in church because I know that everybody's going to get all upset.

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That's not the way things are in our time. So just let things go as they are." As you preach Christ to these people, and as their hearts are transformed, they will come to an understanding of what their responsibility is.

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And women will, through ongoing generations of Christians, rise up to the place of prominence and equality, which is to be heard. And whenever Paul found a woman who was worthy of special praise already, he didn't hesitate to praise her.

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In Titus and in 1 Timothy, Paul makes reference to the fact that elders should be men. It's interesting to note if he doesn't come right out and say they should only be men, he's talking about elders, and he happens to say

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that they should be married to only one wife. Of course, the only one who can be married to a wife is a man, so it's obviously a man. Now, what about that?

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Does Paul really mean that only a man can take a place of leadership in the church? Is that what he means? No, I don't think that's what he means at all. In the synagogues, only men ruled.

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That was part of the society. That was the way things were at that time. So Paul said, "Let's just let things be. Let them continue as they are."

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But then notice this. In Romans 16, at the 7th verse, Paul signifies a woman by the name of Junia, and he says that she is amongst the most noted of the apostles.

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Now, some manuscripts translate "Junia," "Junia." They make it into a masculine form, but the best manuscripts say "Junia." So Paul praises a woman as an apostle,

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and an apostle stood higher than an elder. Look at the 16th chapter of Romans. In the 16th chapter of Romans, Paul lists 25 persons for special notice because of their Christian faith.

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Three of them are women. He makes particular comments about only a few, but seven of the women are singled out for special commentary. He points out, for example, that Phoebe, a woman,

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carried his letter from Corinth to Rome, the very letter in which her name is mentioned. A woman carrying that letter goes hundreds of miles in that day, carrying, mind you, the greatest theological document

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that's ever been written, which the book of Romans was. Paul, you see, repeatedly honors women, and he says that as things proceed in time and as the gospel spreads and as generation after generation of Christians come,

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people will come to understand that the redeeming work of Christ has given woman her place where there is no longer male or female. "This will happen tomorrow," Paul says, "and now it's tomorrow." "The come still turn away from his truth and his testimony."

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And what a price women have been forced to pay because of those who will not obey Scripture in this regard. Women who are subordinated, treated like the slaves before the Civil War. Oh, I don't mean the same indignities heaped upon them.

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We're too sophisticated for that. But the arguments that we use to subordinate women today are the same arguments they use to keep slaves before the Civil War. I said this to a man and he laughed. I didn't think it was funny.

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I thought it was dead serious. You remember how they used to talk, don't you? "Well, I take good care of my blacks." "I take good care of my wife. What does she have to complain about?"

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"Well, my blacks want to be slaves. I talk to them. They don't want to have life on their own. They want to stay with me. They don't want this Civil War. They want to stay in slavery and be my slaves."

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"My wife wants her subordinate position. She doesn't want any change. Not at all." "Don't you understand that black folks are only fit for slavery? They're not quite as good as us white folks are."

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"Don't you understand that women are made to be subordinates? They are to stand lower?" "That's evil! That's evil! Let's call it for what it is. That's contrary to the testimony of Scripture."

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In the job market today, a woman goes out and does the same work as a man and gets paid less for it. Is that honest? Is that fair? Some people assert, you know, that a woman can't be a good mother if she's educated.

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Are you telling me that a woman can't be a better mother if she's stupid? The more educated she is, the better mother she'll be. The exact contrary is the truth. And not only has this cost women, it's also cost the church.

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I just read a pamphlet last week put out by our Association of Christian Education Directors lamenting the fact that so many women directors of Christian education are leaving the church because they can't find equality in the church. That's a terrible thing.

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Women who have, by the end of their own efforts, accomplished things in sociology and psychology and anthropology and theology, all these different disciplines, leaving the church because in the church they can't find that equality which Christ won for them.

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Twenty years ago, the United Presbyterian Church, of which we are a part, was the first church in America to ordain women. And today, less than 20% of our congregations have a woman elder, and I'm sad to say that the Glendale Presbyterian Church is one of those that do not.

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A little over a month ago, we conducted a survey in a morning worship service here, and one of the questions we asked was this, "Should we have women elders in this church?" By a vote of two to one, the men members of this church said,

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"Yes, we should have women elders. Praise God." And by a vote of two and a half to one, the women in this church said, "Yes, we should have women elders. Praise God." By an overwhelming majority, this congregation went on record as saying,

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"We want women to have the place which Christ wants them." But that's not enough. You don't decide questions like this just on the basis of a vote. You go back to Scripture.

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And the witness of Scripture is that by the blood of Jesus, she no longer stands under the curse, but stands beside a man to be honored like a man. The Holy Spirit is moving across the world today.

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The United Nations Charter on Equality for Women, the egalitarianism that you see in Israel, the rise of women in Africa, even the communist states are dignifying the place of women. This is coming.

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[Singing in Hebrew] [Singing in Hebrew] [Singing in Hebrew] Let it be so here.

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And let it be so everywhere. Let us pray. Oh God, our Father, work thy will in our lives and bring us to the place of obedience for the love of Jesus.

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In the place of our Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God the Father, and the communion of the Holy Spirit to comfort her be with you all. Now and always. [BLANK_AUDIO]